It seems that I am going through a pattern of deminished height of love near the end of the motion of the bouncing ball of love.

I felt prety good after my big release on the phone with my WW the other day, and I failed to notice until late yesterday that my feelings of love for have dropped again.

SORRY. BAD STUFF DELETED.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Cham...this kind of thinking isn't proactive in your situation. Plan A isn't enough..it isn't all that it takes. You need to get on antidepressants so that you can have a leveling out of emotions, instead of the constant highs and lows...and you need to find a counselor!!!

Your current line of thinking isn't much different than I used to justify my way out of the marriage. My hubby did this wrong, and didn't love me right and teased me in the same way. He doesnt' now. People can make changes and the marriage can change. Right now...you need to work on YOU...period.

I'm going to ask you some questions...I hope they don't anger you, but I do want you to think about them.

Are you a wimp?

Are you a victim?

Who has the control over your emotions?

How about your actions?

Who do you feel has the greatest control over your current situation?

What real, solid plans do you have for your future...not necessarily just your marriage...but for yourself?

BAD STUFF GONE.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Dear chameleon,

Hmmmm. I can relate. It would be pretty hard for me to love someone who treated me like that. I think H4F is right about asking yourself some questions, and allowing that people can change, and the marriage can change, but I disagree that this kind of thinking is destructive to your "recovery". I don't think taking this kind of inventory is "dwelling on the bad stuff".

A lot of people rationalize bad behaviour and mistreatment in many. many ways. Its a way we have of suppressing our own feelings about how we are treated in order to tolerate what we don't like. You don't like being treated that way. Why should you? Many people get into relationships that aren't good for them out of a desire to "rescue" someone they perceive as having been victimized - they want to make that person's life better - give that person everything they think that person deserves - love, attention, respect. Trouble is the knight in shining armour and the princess are not really playing the same game. Princess prefers jousting to repel all invaders. Whether male or female the dynamics of this kind of R are the same.

The first step towards recovery is to look at the pattern of behaviour and to tell the truth about how you feel about it. I think this is what you have just done here. In all your other posts, you have said over and over again how beautiful your wife is and how much you love her - how much you are trying to rescue her from the evil OM - you have portrayed her as a helpless victim trapped in his web. She obviously, from what you have said, has experienced some pretty terrible things in her life which have affected her deeply, and yes, she deserves to be loved and to be healed. But until she wants that for herself, it isn't going to happen.

The only thing you can do is to take care of yourself - to try to come out of your own shell, get to know yourself, value yourself and start setting boundaries. If you ignore or suppress the bad feelings you have about how she has treated you, you are much more likely to explode in anger and you don't want that. Just like you suppressed your angry feelings at the bar, until you reached out and did something physical, which was unpleasant and surprised everyone around you. And like you said, she has never let you forget this - my H also doesn't let me forget that despite 14 years of abuse, I am the one who hit him in Feb - and that's proof of my instability.

So - no I don't think this is a negative exercise, but a positive one, which involves you telling the truth about the things that have happened and are happening in your marriage, and telling the truth about how you feel about them. You are also more honest in this post about how you portray yourself. The picture is more well-rounded, so you are letting go of having to always be the self-sacrificing one, the rescuer. It shows that you are becoming a stronger person.

I really think that counselling, IC for each of you, and MC for you together is necessary, but if you can't get her to ride the same horse as you, please consider getting counselling for yourself for the support you need. I have found it very helpful in my case so far, as I am sure a lot of others have.

Don't have time to answer other posts - like you I am trying to limit my time here at MB and get on with my life away from the computer.

Keep up the good work.
Take care,
LIR

C;

I think that as we learn about infidelity, start taking a look at ourselves, our lives and our spouses; get counseling, analyze ourselves, our spouses and our marriages, we begin to "paint" two pictures:

Intellectually, we begin to recognize many of our errors, traits, and actions and how those came about and affected our R. Likewise, we analyze our spouse's errors, traits and actions and reach certain conclusions as well.

Many of the conclusions of these analyses lead us to, again intellectually, decide that there are things we cannot live with, or there are things that we cannot possibly hope to change or remedy, and that perhaps, it would be best not to even try. That we are better off ending the M and moving on.

Now emotionally, we also perform similar self and spouse analysis, and since we "love" our spouse, and we've been with them for x number of years, and we have the children and the memories, and the comfort of familiarity, and all that "stuff", we resist, or in some cases confirm, the intellectual conclusions.

So, we either don't have a dilemma (if both the intellectual and emotional conclusions support each other) or we DO have a dilemma when the conclusions we reach are opposite or sufficiently different to cause us confusion and doubt.

Now, if we were all automatons, we would rationalize that since the intellectual conclusions are more valid (we've learned not to trust feelings, since they can deceive us, and to try to act on rational thought) we should either give up and end the misery, or go on when our intellectual conclusions tell us that this R/M is a good thing.

But since we're not automatons, and to a greater or lesser degree rely on a combination of intellect/emotion to reach decisions, we have the doubts you are having; on the one hand you WANT to make your marriage work (emotional), on the other you feel that perhaps it CANNOT work (intellectual).

So, what to do?

I believe that the "Harley Process" (Plan A, Plan B, Basic Concepts, etc.) allows us to look at both sides of this dilemma, to experience both sides, and helps us reach the right conclusions for us, through trial and error, through action/reaction, through time.

The process is really based on the assumption that we, as BSs, are preparing ourselves to exit the M in an emotionally acceptable state; in Plan A we improve ourselves, we begin to detach from the WS. Then in Plan B, we detach physically, we continue to grow, and we prepare to exit.

All along the way, there are "pit stops" where we evaluate and change course or continue. Where we can decide if we've gone as far as we need to or we need to continue. As events take place, we get opportunities to decide, to eliminate the dilemma and make final decisions, one way or another.

So where you are right now, and expressing what you are expressing, you are presenting the "intellectual" case that your M is not worth saving, and you have all these rational, logical reasons for that. Perhaps all of the valid.

But within you, there is also an emotional side, pulling you back from those rational conclusions, saying "you love her, it can work, stay".

And you'll waver from one to the other, until, IN TIME, you will have almost naturally and without conscious effort reached "your" conclusion, "your" particular brand and mix of intellect/emotion, your unique blend of these two that ends the dilemma, ends the doubt, ends the conflict.

In order for this to happen, however, you must invest the right amount of time, and go through the steps. I believe you will know when enough time has passed for you. And that will be when you no longer have doubts, when the wavering is over. When you don't switch from one conclusion to the other on a daily or hourly basis. You will know then what you need to do. Don't try to accelerate it, don't try to shortcut the process...it will happen on its own. In time.

Well, I "took inventory" and came up with a valid case that my marriage was worth leaving. And in a sense I was correct. My husband HAD taken me for granted and my needs were far from being met. He was insensitive and neglectful at times. The problem is that in looking at just the bad stuff...and dwelling on the resentment...I couldn't even see why I married him any more...and I sure didn't see anything changing.

But it did change. And NEITHER of us treats each other the way we did pre-A. His reactions to me were not only failures on his part...but also mine because of how I was setting him up to react. I also had a troubled childhood, Cham, and yes...it did leave me with very poor skills for dealing with my H and pain. Your wife most likely has very similiar issues. But they ARE issues...they CAN be fixed. Don't just look at her as if she's "broken" and can't be fixed. Hubby did that to me too. Decided it was all for the best because I was probably just too screwed up to ever be normal anyway.

It's still my opinion that this type of thinking is not much different than what she's doing. She most likely is focusing on all the stuff you don't/didn't do right and she probably sees it as never changing...Plan A or not. It's emotionally based thinking...atleast on her part. Just be careful you don't fall in to that trap too.

Your wifes treatment of you as you described it...reminds me very much of how hubby treated me. He came from a family in which insults or ignoring were the only type of acknowledgment you got. I came from a home where nothing was ever good enough and you were only seen when you were doing something wrong. It's no wonder we didn't interact in very healthy ways!!

"The trouble is she consistantly does this trying to get a rise out of me or whatever."

Exactly...this is her way of getting your attention. She probably learned this at home, growing up.

"So she continually emphasizes my faults when I am around her and over the years I tend to get preocupied with trying not to make errors and end up screwing up anyways: Self fullfilling prophecy. I am at my worst when I am around her."

But you being at your worst is not her fault. She's being rude and insensitive...but YOU control how you choose to react to that. You don't have to be anyone but yourself. I fell in to that trap too and never felt like I could be myself around hubby...because being myself was never good enough. I've never felt freer to just be WHO I AM! And since I spent a lifetime moulding to fit who people wanted me to be (or so I thought)...I'm still working on figuring out exactly who it is I want to be!

"I have told her that this bothers me, and she dismisses it and says I am just being sensitive."

Yea, I hear you there. Hubby used to do that too. I think somewhere along the way they learned to tune out things like that as "complaints" or nagging (or in your case oversensitivity). His automatic emotional response was to instantly tune out any time I wanted to talk about what he did that hurt me. Hubby learned new ways to listen in counseling and I learned new ways to talk to him.

"She does not know how to love."

This is a disrespectful judgement. She doesn't show you love the way you want her to, but that doesn't mean she doesn't know how to love. She loves DIFFERENTLY than you do...and probably not in a healthy way. But that doesn't invalidate her ability to love.

"Even before the A, she rarely is affectionate. When we are around other people, she completely ignores me and spends time with others, when we are at the dinner table with others, she does not sit next to me, and she talks with the people in her group and does not include me. If people did not know us, they would not think we were married."

She sounds closed off emotionally. Then again, I've read from posters who are very loving, but simply not affectionate. They didn't learn it growing up...so it's simply not second nature to them. Hubby never used to touch me gently or hold my hand in public. Whereas I used to maul him, trying to get hugs and telling him I loved him every time he turned around. He thought I was smothering and I thought he was cold and insensitive! We just had to find a middle ground.

"She regularely flirts with other men."

Ooops, I used to be bad about that. Hubby HATED it but I never thought it was a big deal. I was just teasing and joking with them! Well...don't worry, I learned the danger in that. I don't get flirtatious any more, both out of respect for my H and because I learned!!!

"and she has never let me live that one down. Uses it everytime she thinks I am jeleous."

Yea, it sounds like she set you up to put you down. I know it's hard not to take it personally, but it's her twisted way of feeling cared about!! That CAN change...but she needs counseling.

"Definite EA now that I think about it."

Yup. She's got issues that if not dealt with will rear their ugly head again. So now you have a good road map as to what things needs to change...and what you know needs to be worked on before you can commit to recovery with her. You can set your boundries based on those things. But just also know, that with the right help, she can change and learn to love you the way you need to feel loved.

"She is quick to wrath."

I always was too. A REAL hothead. I have much better control over that now, and rarely get stirred up.

"Says extrodinarily mean, nasty, cussing, etc. Many times she halled off and hit me a few times."

She's got pent up rage...and probably learned some of this at home too. I used to do the same thing. When H and I filled out the LB questionaire we realized none of those things have happend since we've gotten back together. We have new ways to work things out...skills we didn't have before.

"The more I think about this and list her faults in my mind, the less sense it makes to try to save our marriage."

I've read worse cases.

"She has rarely ever been my wife, but maybe this is just all because of my current state of mind."

Wow, do you think she'd agree with that? I think she'd probably present a pretty good case that in HER MIND she's been as good of a wife as she knows how.

"Regardless, it sure does feel accurate."

I'm sure it does. It also felt accurate to me when I painted us as a hopeless cause as well. It also felt EXTREMELY accurate that my OM was my soulmate. Many thing felt accurate along the rollercoaster. My counselor taught me to give everything time and not make any decisions based on what I felt to be true today.

Just another perspective. Take care.

Lots of good opinions, suggestions, and perspectives.

SORRY. BAD STUFF DELETED.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: chameleon ]</small>

Thanks for the undeserved compliment, C.

But come to think of it, with the jobs situation in IT, maybe I have a future in the marriage counseling field...? Nah, I'm way too analytical and left-brained...

I thought left brained was artistic and right brained was analytical. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am actually not too sure.

I am thinking another book on infedelity that combines the best of philosophies and is a step by step how to survive and rebuild in M or new R.

Heck with that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Try a love novel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It sells better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />