Hi everyone,
I've been hanging around this forum since April without posting. I have questions but I guess I should summarize the situation as quickly as I can:

WW in EA since spring 2001, we moved to new state in August 2001, she started PA November, and D-day was March 2002. Since then I've been Plan A'ing. In April, she moved out. Several times now, she's gone for a week or so at a time to visit OM where we used to live.
When she's in town, we see each other constantly, and get along really well. All along, she has told her IC and me that the decision she's trying to make is whether to end it with OM, not whether to end it with me. But she is "in love" with him, and has imagined a future with him.
Last week, she was supposed to go to see OM, and postponed the trip three days in a row, because she was afraid I wouldn't be waiting for her anymore if she went.
Finally she went, then called me from the airport here, having changed her mind, and got her checked bag back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I picked her up, we went out to lunch near the airport, then she said she wanted to go back to the airport and go to see OM after all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I made it clear that if we ever reconciled, I needed her to promise me she wouldn't make decisions only on the basis of her emotions. Then I took her back to the airport. Three times she asked if we should just go home, and I told her it was her decision. Finally, she went.
Then she called to tell me how much she admired how I was that day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Now, according to friends, she is at OM's, unable to stop thinking about me, crying a lot, but not feeling able to make a decision anytime soon! And she is worried that she's let this go on so long that the problems are too big to overcome.

Questions: IS IT TOO LATE? IS SHE CLOSE? AND WHAT SHOULD I DO AT THIS POINT? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

BTW, Hope4Future, I really hope you are reading this, I live on your posts.

There is no easy answer for this one. She is in counseling. I hope that you do not have children.
Your wife sounds like a cakewoman. After all of the pain she puts you through she still goes back to travel to meet with OM and be intimate with him and comes back to you unable to make up her mind. She loves the OM but of course does not wish to lose her present life and I am sure her financial security.
I am in the minority here on this board and I believe in the tough love approach. There is a saying which states: "No consequences to her behavior = No motivation to change.

Your wife is acting very immature and inflecting emotional pain to you and putting your health at risk by having sex with another man. This is not what a marriage should be of course. You moved to another state to get away from the OM and now she simply travels back and forth to meet with him? Her consistent behavior to disrespect and humiliate you and your marriage like this is unacceptable. You say she admires you for handling this so well. Do you really think she respects you as a husband allowing her to go back and forth and have sex with another man out of town? I think down deep it would be just the opposite. I would think if you make it clear that you will be out of the marriage if she does not break contact then she will more likely come to her senses. You are enabling her to have two lives by not taking a stance. Do you think if the roles were reversed that your wife would say it is all right for you to travel back and forth and have sex with your female friend?
I would suggest you contact a lawyer and make it clear to your wife that the end is near and I will bet you she will cut contact because she will realize what she will lose. A married man does not accept and allow his wife to go back and forth to have sex with another man. What were you thinking? If she truly loves the other man then let her go because you deserve to be with a woman who loves you and believes in a committment to marriage. What you have now is destructive to her and to your self-esteem
as a man and a husband. Allowing this to continue without consequences is foolish and simplly unacceptable. Again I am in the minority here but I hope you consider what I have written to you. I wish you luck.

BryanP, Thanks for your reply and advice. Just to clarify a couple of points:
We are separated, and, fortunately or unfortunately, I am not currently at any health risk. Also, we did not move to get away from OM, but because she got a really good job here, so currently she is making a lot more money than I am. And we do not have children.
Yes, I agree that she is a cakewoman. But at the same time, I think she is horribly confused. Part of the approach here seems to be allowing our (BS's) sanity to outlast their (WS') confusion. And I'm trying to figure out if that's still possible.

bump

D;
Sounds like you have to "help" her make a choice. If you continue to provide her with your love, support, and company, you are making that choice more difficult for her.
If you remove yourself from the equation, and allow her to see and feel what her life would be like without you, she may be compelled to make a choice.
And it sounds like she will choose you.

Howdy! I read your post this morning, but was heading out for the day.

Is it too late? Not by a long shot.

Is it close? Unfortunatly probably not.

What should you do? Well....

Your WW sounds like someone I could relate to. I know you feel bad for her...it is a really horridly painful position to be in (for EVERYONE involved). The thing is, if the air isn't deflated out of her balloon (ie reality vs fantasy) she'll continue this fence jumping behavior until everyone is fed up. It sounds like she cares for you deeply and knows she's doing something wrong, but as of yet isn't strong enough to do the right thing. Well...we're stronger than we put on.

As long as she's got both the OM and you wanting her, she'll remain torn. The absolute best thing you can do (assuming you've done a good Plan A, and it sounds like you have) is to let her know that although you love her deeply, it's her decision to make and you want no part of the roller coaster in the meantime. The thing is...you have to be ready for more fence jumping, promise making, panic talk.

It's good she's got a counselor. But I will also say that there are many out there that have NO IDEA how to counsel someone through infidelity. They aren't "allowed" to make a decision for you, so they try not to sway you one direction or the other. It doesn't go far in eforcing how wrong and distorted affair-based thinking is.

Anyway...if you have any specific questions, ask away. It's always nice to meet a fan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (LOL!!) but so sad that it's under these circumstances <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

H4F; Both D and I want autographs! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LOL...well, you know flattery will get you everywhere! I'll just send one off along with a package of intagibles. What color would you like? LOL!

Some questions for you, determ:

Do you know anything about the OM? How did they meet? Have you done a Plan A?

I'm wondering about the scene with going back and forth to the airport. Did you tell her you wanted her to stay? That you love her and don't want her to leave. Or did you just tell her it was her decision?

Thanks for your advice, Spacecase and Hope4Future.

Answers to your questions: WW and OM met through work, and then became close friends at a time when we were having lots of problems.

What do I know about OM? Thanks for asking! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Everything I know is really hearsay. His work colleagues, I am told, say he is mean and whiney. Not one of her friends can stand him, and one told me she would not willingly introduce him to anyone she knew! His last relationship was also with a married woman, but apparently her husband won't give her a divorce and she's currently having another affair, so that's sort of confusing. Basically, I'd like to believe he's pure evil but am willing to believe he is merely selfish and immature.

Have I done a good Plan A? I think I have. I've eliminated a lot of LB's, and I think she's definitely noticed.

About the airport scene: I did not tell her at that moment how much I love her and wanted her to stay, but I did make it very clear in the few days before that.

The idea of a Plan B, if that's what you are suggesting, is really hard for me. In many ways, we haven't disconnected emotionally, either of us, and I miss her horribly a lot of the time. But I am planning to move away, definitely by the end of September, and possibly sooner.

Any thoughts?

Well, I'm glad to hear the guy is a jerk, LOL! I'm not sure what background you've read about my situation, but the OM was a lifetime friend of my H's and a friend to me as long as I'd known hubby. He was not a jerk. He did become whiny and was certainly selfish, though. Anyway, the fact that this guy is a loser and has an ugly history of this type of thing works in your favor!!

I understand your hesitancy about Plan B right now...and actually it probably really isn't the right time. You're lovebank doesn't sound nearly almost empty.

The reason I asked about the airport incident, was that I remember back to H and I. I wanted more than anything, even while I was telling him I didn't love him and wanted a Dv, for him to tell me with strong surity that he loved me and wanted to remain married to me. I'm not saying that him doing that would have pulled me out of the fog...but him asking me to help him find a new wife and if I'd continue to cut his hair and clean his house, didn't go a long way towards helping me feel like I would be loved, cherished or cared for by him. Anyway...if ANYTHING like that comes up again I have a suggestion. DON'T drive her butt back to the airport...if she's hell bent on going, YOU don't need to be taking her. And make it SUPER clear in your best "I'm strong and I'm hear for you" voice that you love her and want her to stay.

"Honey, Do NOT go to the airport. I want you to come home with me. I love you. Come home and we can make our marriage everything we set out for it to be. We can't do it while ([censored]) is in the picture. Please stay."

Meanwhile the OM gets poed that ANOTHER one slipped away and whines himself into LBland.

So for now you have a few options. You could tell her you've found a wonderful site on marriage building that offers huge insight into situations JUST LIKE hers. Even if she doesn't come to the site it plants the seed that her situation is far from unique. And if she does venture to come in, she might learn some valuable things. You could and probably should continue Plan A. And you could consider Plan B. It doesn't sound like you're ready for that yet...but it doesn't hurt to set a timeframe for yourself (which it sounds like you have) and get a letter ready.

That all sounds like great advice H4F. I don't think I am ready for Plan B, although when she's away my resentment level is way up there.
About showing love: I've been really unsure about how much to do that ever since D-Day. Some people say that it only increases the feelings of guilt in the WS. But it does always seem to have a good effect in our case. She even said she doesn't know if she can be herself without my love.
About the airport: I realize it sounds really bad that I took her back. Normally, I would never have taken her, period, nor would she have asked. But I had to go back past the airport to get home anyway, and had just picked her up, so ...
About showing her this website: I did that once, actually showed her LostinLove's thread, and she said it made her feel like she was being stupid, so I guess that was an LB. But on that infamous airport day, I think I was able to explain the idea of withdrawal without sounding like I was educating her. Anyway, I think she has become pretty aware of how common this situation is.

Whatever works for you, do THAT. It's easy to relate to this situation or that situation...but in the end you're dealing with an individual with individual needs and responses.

It sounds like deep down she knows she wants to be with you, but can't seem to find the strength to break it off with OM. That's the addiction like side of things. Really scrambles the brains and makes one feel totally helpless to their emotions. For me depression played a huge part in that. Getting on antidepressants gave me a wonderfully strong, self-sufficient, I can do ANYTHING feeling. For some it takes the tough love, no nonsense, I'm not going to remain part of a triangle approach to give the WS enough motivation to quit the nonsense.

It may have made your wife feel stupid to read how common this all is...but it also planted some seeds of information. That people go through this, so there are in fact knowledgable ANSWERS to the questions she has. IF she decides to go looking for those answers.

No one would blame you for feeling resentful that she actually went. It's one thing to tell your spouse you don't care anymore so please move on...it's another to treat them like a yoyo. I did a bit of both. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by determination:
<strong>Have I done a good Plan A? I think I have. I've eliminated a lot of LB's, and I think she's definitely noticed.

Any thoughts?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd listen to SpaceCase & BrianP - they sound about exactly what I'd say - you've been ENABLING your wife to 'have the best of both worlds' - since she's determined to make her bed - then let ler sleep in it! If your wife wants to hang with some whiney spoiled dude instead of her loving husband who would do about anything for her - then dude she really is in the FOG!! Have you gotten Christian Counseling yet? Please pray about this too - but then again, I'm sure you have been...
May God bless you,
Harold

Determination,

You have been getting good advice I think you should heed it. I would like to point a few things out to you.

1. About Plan B, it should be used after a good Plan A (sounds as if you have done that).
It should be used BEFORE your LB is empty.
It should be used to help you ie: hold on to your self-esteem, your love and your self-respect.

2. About self-respect or respect for that matter. While Hope seems to be an exception I have read it here many times that in someways the WS loses respect for the BS during this. Your W is telling you one thing, but clearly disrespecting you at the same time.

Now this may be that her new job with the big salary has inflated her sense of worth, and the feeling that you CANNOT do anything about this because YOU need HER money. This may be something for you to consider. I do think it is time for Plan B, if she is having you take her to the airport to go see OM.

Now some other observations. You moved because of HER job. OM is back where he is. I wonder if he would move and be second banana to her and her big salary? You might want to see if that is true.

Further, he is a player and goes for married women, they are safe, you can date them, screw them, and then leave them without ever having to be responsible for them. There are more than a few men and women that like this game. He clearly does.

A Plan B, would mean that not only does he get the goodies, but he gets to meet her needs in many other areas. Sometimes it isn't as much fun as meeting the romantic need or the SF need.

You have been in this a long time, if you stay in Plan A much longer, there is little hope for your marriage. Why? Because YOU will have too many triggers of too many events to get over. Everything from holidays, to vacations, to her constant trips to see OM. This all gets added to your experience and too much of this will make it very hard for her to overcome.

People often forget that Plan B is not only to preserve love, but to preserve the chance that the marriage has a chance when the affair is over. The more you know the more you will have to deal with. That is why long Plan A's are not recommended by the Harley's.

So stop and think about this.

Interestingly, while Hope's H didn't do much of anything to help with her decisions to come back, the fact that they were separated and he was moving on, meant that he had fewer triggers to overcome, than he might have had he really tried Plan A for the whole time and faced mostly rejection as you are now.

There is a reason for both of these plans, and Plan A rarely restores the marriage. That is why Plan B is here.

God Bless,

JL

Too true JL. H was hurt by my leaving, but he never built up the resentment that many BS's do because of failed attempts at winning me back.

Thanks for your advice everybody,
Maybe it is time for Plan B. I see what you are saying about building up more and more triggers. At the same time, could someone explain to me how Plan B isn't one giant trigger? What I mean is, as awful as things have been, I think WW has managed to sometimes make deposits in my bank through this. Or at least, when we're together I feel much more positive toward her. If I'm in Plan B, how do I avoid feeling more consistently negative toward her?
I'd like to share a few things she told me yesterday, when we had a brief phone call. She said she feels closer to being able to be responsible for her emotions, that she really wants to be responsible for her emotions, instead of feeling helpless. She said that a friend of hers was telling her about how her husband's XW had been a WW, in a pretty awful way; my W told me it upset her because she didn't feel she was behaving very differently. These seem like pretty unfoggy thoughts. But I don't know if I should take any hope from them. What do you think?

Determination,

What I really think is that you need to call the Harley's and get advice from a professional, especially professionals that really know how to do this.

I personally think it is the height of "fog" when a person can empathize with how their behavior is hurting a person, but still do it and justify doing it. It sounds to me like your W is doing just that.

Plan B does not create triggers in your mind. It is for you to get away from this sort of logic. She wants both of you in her life, and she really isn't too concerned how much you hurt. Her words really are just that words. The reality is that until she stops seeing and talking with OM, your marriage doesn't have a chance.

The call is yours, but don't delude yourself, if she hasn't ended contact with OM, all of her statements aren't worth a warm bucket of spit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> This is the normal way of things.

The reality is that when or if she comes back to the marriage and OM has been removed you will have to deal with all that she has done and said, especially when she knew how much it hurt you. She will have to deal with a lot of guilt. I don't know which is worse, but given all you have done, I would strongly suggest you consider Plan B, especially since you have apparently done a pretty good plan A.

As night follows day, these two plans do work in tandem.

Your call. I wish you the best of luck no matter which way you decide. Neither path is easy.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning,
A warm bucket of spit-nice image. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
It's true though, isn't it. I keep trying to find signs for hope in the things she says, but until she does something, I may be kidding myself.
On the other hand, I thought the real height of the fog was when she said early on that she didn't want to let thinking about my feelings get in the way of figuring out what she wanted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Anyway, I went to see my IC today. She thought Plan B sounded like a good idea for my own well-being, but agreed it was scary for the marriage.

My biggest fear about Plan B is this: My W has big self-esteem issues, and she said a couple months ago that she has always run away from problems. So I'm afraid she won't have the courage or whatever it takes to reach out to me after I have withdrawn from her. Is that a common fear?

Determination,

You must remember that a good plan B letter is a love letter, pure and simple. Above all else it is a love letter. Second you aren't the problem, the OM is. So when she starts running from her problems, it is very likely going to be away from him.

It is very scary, and most that have done it find it so. Why? Because if you wait until it isn't scary, your love bank will be empty and you won't have enough love left to go through the pain of rebuilding even if she did come back. It is very very hard to leave someone you are still deeply in love with.

Do you see the rub here? You must do it while it is scary. You must do it in such a way that she KNOWS you want her in your life, and you love her deeply, BUT it is tearing YOU apart. You need the pain and uncertainty to end, and having the OM out of the picture is the only you can come back and rebuild the marriage.

Yup, it could be the end of the marriage, but doing nothing is very likely to be as well. Staying in plan A will also kill your marriage. The difference is that you will go through so much that you won't care if it dies. Even in plan B you will find that your LB will slow drain, but at a slower pace than if you stayed in Plan A. Eventually, in either case you will gradually lose the love and be ready to move on. It is inevitable if she continues what she is doing. So it often seems to come down your willingness to hang in there. Remember Plan B is for YOU, not to convince your W to come back. It will buy you more time, but that is all.

Now sometimes it does shake the WS up and make them see things differently, but don't plan on it. Usually, it is just that the affair dies out, and you are still standing there waiting. It is a war of attrition.

Does this make sense? Please do some serious reading on this subject and then discuss further with IC.

God Bless,

JL

I don't post here too often...I did for a while in the beginning of our recovery but then I found that I was spending too much time here rather than with H! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Here is My Story . I know it is long, but it will give you an idea of where I am coming from. I can relate to your wife's feeling big time. It sounds like you are getting a lot of good advice here. I'm not sure what I can add except support. I would be happy to answer any questions and if your wife needs someone to talk to who has been there....I'm all ears and big shoulders. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />