Great post Mrs WLD and good to have you back with us. It would also be great if you could find the link to your H's posts because of his BS perspective (just like determination's).

Mrs WLD, Thanks for posting here. I looked up WLD's post, too. There's a lot there I can relate to. This experience has made me realize exactly what commitment and marriage really mean to me. I keep checking to see if I want to take off my ring, and I never want to.
I think there's a lot in your story my W could relate to, also. If she wanted to talk to you, how would that work?
TMCM, I love your poem, and happen to be drinking a lot of coffee myself this morning. My cousin and I once made up songs for "the ten cups of coffee of the day." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This morning I woke up from some bad dream too early, feeling really angry at my W, wanting her to just act her age and stop being so self-destructive. I even felt like I wanted a Dv. When I feel that way occasionally, I just try to keep it in perspective as a mood. Does this happen to everybody?

PLAN B DRAFT LETTER INPUT?
I want to thank everyone who's posted here so far. If I ever think I have something worth saying (doubtful) I'll post on your threads, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
So, I wrote a draft of a Plan B Letter. Not a real happy experience. I would really appreciate any input:

My dear (W's name),
I'm sorry to say this could be the last letter I ever write to you. And I'm sorry that it's not our usual kind of love letter, the kind that has meant so much to both of us.
Not because I don't love you. I love you with all my heart. You're the most incredible, wonderful, gorgeous woman and the most incredible, imaginative, thrilling person in the world. Life without you is painful and impossible for me to imagine. I want you in my bed, in my heart, and in my life.
But none of that can happen unless you decide to give up (OM's name.)
I know that, among other things, you have a lot of guilt about doing that. I think it's sad that he made the choices that could lead to losing someone he cares about and needs. But he did make those choices.
I did not make those choices. But I did make mistakes. I made so many mistakes! And I know those mistakes helped in a big way to create the situation in which your relationship with him could start. I let my emotions overwhelm me, and wasn't there for your emotions. I didn't show you my love when you were going through horrible times. I thought I was, but I wasn't. I wanted you to solve my problems for me, when that was my job. And now the situation is what it is.
I have tried to be as patient as I know how, to let you find your way. And sometimes I feel that you are finding your way, that you are getting closer. But ultimately, the situation is black and white. Either you do what is necessary to give our marriage a chance, or you don't.
What I am hoping for, when I hope you will give him up, is a chance. I don't think that will solve all our problems. We have a lot of work to do. But I don't believe our problems are too big to overcome--not unless we believe they are. I have read about so many people overcoming problems like ours, and of course I have seen it firsthand. And I am ready to put in as much work as it takes, for the rest of our lives. I can't think of anything more worthwhile in life to work at. I want to be your (pet name for each other) forever.

Until you are able to make a decision one way or the other, though, I have chosen not to go on in the way we have been. It is just too difficult for me to constantly be up and down, to see hope and have it taken away, to try and fail. And it's too hard for me to watch your torment and not be able to do anything about it. So, until you are able to make a decision, I have decided not to see you or speak to you.
Meanwhile, if you have any need to contact me for everyday reasons, please email me or leave a message on my cell phone.
As you know, I also hope that this will help you know your own feelings. If not seeing or speaking with me is something you can live without, what more is there to say?
But I do have a fear in doing this. I am afraid you will believe I've stopped loving you, or will believe that it is too late.
I haven't stopped loving you. It is not too late. If you decide you want to be with me, please come to me.
I haven't stopped loving you. It is not too late. If you decide you want to be with me, please come to me.
I haven't stopped loving you. It is not too late. If you decide you want to be with me, please come to me.

So &#8230;

With all the love and sadness that I think could ever exist in this world,
I say goodbye for now, (wife's name).

(Determination)

Hi determ. I'm sorry I don't have a long time this morning to go over your letter. I'm hoping you get some good "tweaking" suggestions and when I get home after work I won't have to suggest anything, LOL!! I think it's a very good start, but I think there are some disrespectful judgements and some "educating" in there. All in all it's right on...it is a black and white decision.

As far as where your wife is emotionally... I know JL has offered some very good advice...but there are a few areas where I see things a bit differently. Having been where your WW is at emotionally, I remember very well how torn I was and how painful a decision it was to make. Truth is it never should have BEEN a decision...but thats where I found myself. From what you've written of your wife I don't get the feeling she wants to keep both of you...I get that feeling from Space and 2longs wives...but not yours. Yours wants to make the choice, but she's struggling with doing it. I NEVER wanted both men. I wanted ONE man. I wanted my husband to have the qualities I fell for in the OM. And...with time...I began to see what things my H had that the OM did not. Some WW's come to the realization that their H is far more of a man than the OM ever was...in your case it would seem that way. In ours, I came to the realization that the OM was special in many ways, but no more so than my H. Each one is unique and wonderful in some ways and unskilled and different in other ways. Neither man was better...and I shared a past and a son with one. I wanted to stay married...I did NOT want to be divorced. I DID NOT want to be a part time mom and I didn't want new people in our sons life as step parents. The decision at that point was easy...but at that point I wasn't sure H would even give me another chance. I was soooo extremely lucky he did.

Anyway, while everyone else sees a cakeeater...I often see someone tangled in the confusion and emotion...stuck between what to do...stuck in the pain. If you've done a thourough Plan A then Plan B is a great idea...there are many WS's who can't ever seem to make a decision without it. As long as she has you still giving her "feel good" feelings...she doesn't feel the ugliness that life will hold with only the OM to fill those voids. Reality is the best way to wake up a WS.

Determination,
You or W can e-mail either of us at home at wldebusk@cox.net You can ask us ANYTHING about this. We are almost at one fuul year of wonderful recovery!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I am sending H here to read and give his side of things...
Toomuch.. thanks for the welcome back! I have always been around, reading but not posting much.

Hey Determination,

Wow, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. I think you letter is very strong. I wish I could tell you when the right time is to send it, but you're gonna have to figure that out for yourself (bummer).

I can tell you that there's always hope. That's kind of hypocritical coming from me, because we (Mrs. WLD) and I didn't put it back together until well after I had totally given up on her. I think you're stronger than I am. Although, I didn't give up until she filed for divorce. She'd taken a few trips to see the OM and I still didn't give up. But she filed, and I quit. I didn?t quit loving her. But I quit hoping. I couldn't bear the pain of hoping anymore. So I quit. I tried to find a "bright side." And I found one. OK, it wasn't actually bright, more of a "slightly luminescent flickering side", but it was something. I focused on the flicker and moved on. Then she said "Wait, I want to try again!" So I did. And she decided one month later (just a week after our 8 year anniversary) that she couldn't give him up. I was devastated.

This time I really gave up. I had NO trust in her at all. A couple of months later she turned back from the dark side and suggested that this divorce wasn't necessary, but I couldn't take the chance that she was going to cr*p on me again. So I said no. We're talking zero trust here.

But then one night, about a week before our divorce would have been final, something changed. I can't give you anything palpable. I credit God 100%. For no reason at all, I trusted her. I mean, there were reasons to trust her on one level. She overtly pushed the OM out of her life, making sure I knew about it (smart her!). She'd made some great changes, but none of it was enough to trust her after all that had happened. But I trusted her anyway. Not much. But just enough to feel like I had the strength to take a chance.

We're doing very well now. We got back together just last Oct.

My advice to you? Stick to your wedding vow. Love her no matter what. You can't control what she does, but you can make yourself a better you. You have to do that regardless of what's to come. If she gets smart and drops this OM, you'll need to be prepared to give her what she needs. If she can't climb out of the hole she's in and divorces you, you'll need to be a stronger, better you to handle it and the relationship(s) to come. Either way, you'll know you did all you could. Read Harley?s books. Read McGraw?s Relationship Rescue.

When you read my posts, did you find my "definition of marriage?" If not, I'll post it here. It was huge for me when I realized it...and it still is.

Take care, God bless,

Determination,
Good Morning. I just read my loving H's reply to you and went back up to read your plan B letter and H4F reply. WOW!! Your letter is very well written. I agree so much with H4F, having BEEN in those shoes like her. Your wife sounds very much like she is having a hard time making the decision to do it. I think that is what compelled me to write to you, she sound so much like she is where I was and you sound like my H. I gave you a way to get a hold of us, PLEASE USE IT!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We will be so happy to help you with whatever we can!

Hi Mr and Mrs WLD,
Thank you both for your words of encouragement. It does seem like a pretty similar situation. Seeing how far things can go and still work out ... it's encouraging and depressing at the same time!
Anyway, Mrs WLD, I also agree with H4F--I see my W pretty much the same way. Yesterday, she told me she had tried all day the day before to come home. I believe she was being honest. Yes, she may have been trying to keep me hanging around as well, but at the same she was telling the truth. She's basically so honest, which is one of the many things that make this all so weird.
WLD, I don't think I came across your definition of marriage, if you wouldn't mind posting it. As far as getting in touch with the two of you, I will be going away for about a week starting tomorrow, and will probably not be able to get online much. Kind of a chance to forget about this a little, hopefully, and put decisions on hold. But after that, I would love to email you. Thanks.

Hi Mr and Mrs WLD,
Thank you both for your words of encouragement. It does seem like a pretty similar situation. Seeing how far things can go and still work out ... it's encouraging and depressing at the same time!
Anyway, Mrs WLD, I also agree with H4F--I see my W pretty much the same way. Yesterday, she told me she had tried all day the day before to come home. I believe she was being honest. Yes, she may have been trying to keep me hanging around as well, but at the same she was telling the truth. She's basically so honest, which is one of the many things that make this all so weird.
WLD, I don't think I came across your definition of marriage, if you wouldn't mind posting it. As far as getting in touch with the two of you, I will be going away for about a week starting tomorrow, and will probably not be able to get online much. Kind of a chance to forget about this a little, hopefully, and put decisions on hold. But after that, I would love to email you. Thanks.

Determination....
Just wondering how things were going...
You and W are in our prayers

INCREDIBLE OM STORIES!
I just got back to my computer after more than a week away. If anyone wants to read about incredible OM behavior, just be a little patient.
Mrs. WLD, thank you so much for asking about me/us. The day you posted was our anniversary--not a very happy one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
My feelings are very confused right now. Let me tell about what happened lately, and then about how I'm feeling. This may end up very long, but I really need input on this.

I went on a trip while W was on vacation. (I am free-lance, and in my line of work am pretty much unemployed this time of year.) That week, she had told me a couple of times that she had "tried" to come home but couldn't. Whatever that means.
Meanwhile, while staying with a friend, I decided to go to the state where W was staying with OM, to either bring her back or at least talk. I felt this was something I needed to do for myself, and something she needed to see from me. (In fact, she told friends she had fantasized about it.) I told her I was coming when she was alone and she didn't make any objection, but that night, after being with OM, she told me she didn't think I should come. Wonder how that happened? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I told her I would sleep on it but that I was planning to come anyway, whether she saw me or not was her choice.
The next morning I was already on my way when she called again and said she didn't think I should come. She didn't say she didn't want me to, she said I shouldn't. I told her it was very hard under these circumstances for me to believe that she cared at all about our marriage and said I thought it was terrible that she wouldn't interrupt her 3-week vacation with her boyfriend to talk with me when I needed to.
So then, OM calls me! I can't believe I didn't hang up right away. He proceeded to tell me:
--Everytime WW talks to me she ends up feeling responsible for my feelings and then he has to sit there and watch it.
--I always want everything to be on my timetable. (I guess one time is the same as always for him.)
--I might find it hard to believe, but he really cares about me.
--WW and I have problems communicating, and it took an affair for us to find that out.
--He always tells her whatever she chooses is okay with him. (Must be why he is always laying guilt trips on her when she wants to be with me.)

And a bit more like that. A few minutes later I called his # because it was the only way I could reach W directly. Keep in mind this was the 2nd time ever I had called there (the first time was when I called to tell him not to call my place--which is the most amazing story of all--maybe next time.) So he refuses to put her on the phone, says I'm not respecting her, says I am trying to ruin their vacation, and to quit calling or else he'll make trouble for me.

Sweet man.

So, later, I told W what I had been going to tell her, which was pretty much the most loving thing possible. The next day we talked and I was so angry about the day before that I LB'd all over the place. When I commented on OM's behavior, she said I was overdramatizing. Her lack of empathy was just unbelievable! And, she said he treats her that way, but she can control it, and it's not really how he is. I found it very very scary to hear her talk that way. I also overheard him speaking to her in a very demeaning way while we were on the phone.
So then we talked later, much more calmly and cordially, and I delivered a verbal Plan B letter, not of the orthodox variety.
I said when she is with me, I have only good thoughts about her, but when she hurts me, those LB's come out. That if she didn't want that to happen, all she had to do was stop hurting me. I said I promised to try keeping my heart open to her and that if she wanted to come back to me I would listen, but for now, no more talking.

She violated Plan B once to leave a Happy Anniversary message, which I was pretty unimpressed by.

I realize this is all very bad MB behavior on my part, but I'm only human. She treated me so badly those two days. And I'm really uncertain whether I believe she'll ever see how wrong her behavior has been. I'm wondering if the wonderful person I loved so much is just gone. I feel like she's just rationalizing everything, his bad behavior, her moral shift, and I have the constant impulse to educate her on how ridiculous it all is. Help! Help! Help!

Determination,

It is time to go to a real plan B and that means a letter that tells her you love her, but must separate from her for now and until OM is out of the picture. That means no more talking to her. It will be very hard for a few weeks but you will adjust and then you will find yourself on a much more even keel.

Do it, and do it right. She will then have to rely on OM for all of her needs and I somehow doubt that she will find him all that interesting when he is the ONLY game in town.

Tough stuff but it is something that needs to be done.

God Bless,

JL

Do you think I should do a plan B letter even though I already did it on the phone? The problem I'm having with the classic Plan B letter format is that at the moment, I'm not sure I believe anymore that we can work it out. I don't think I've lost my love, because I'm far from indifferent; but from a rational perspective, I'm asking myself, why be with someone who would do this to me? I'm very confused.

General question: I don't mean to be a heretic here, but do we have any real reason to believe the standard Plan B Letter is more effective than, for example, moving on without any guarantees? In some of the success stories we read here, the BS had moved on in a non-Plan B kind of way before WS came back. Any ideas?

NEW PLAN B LETTER DRAFT: INPUT?
Okay, guys and gals, help me out here. This is my third post in a row to my own thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> After reading Spacecase's letter, I was moved by his nobility of spirit to try my own. Is it too negative? This was about all the positivity I could muster, and maybe more than I can stand behind at the moment. I have to think about that.
Here it is:Dear W,
Although I already told you I didn't think we should communicate for now, I wanted to write you a letter, to make sure I could express all of what I wanted to say to you at this time (although I'm sure I'll continue to think of more things later.) It makes me sad that this is not the usual kind of love letter that has meant so much to both of us.
That is not because I don't love you. I love you very deeply. You are such a big part of who I am. I want to hold you, to be with you, make love to you, to be old with you. I want you to be always in my heart. You're the most brilliant cute fun [pet name] around.
Right now though, as the most recent events have underlined, it seems to me that you are far from being able to be the wife that I need. I need you to be able to empathize with me, and put my interests above those of another man. Since you seem unable to do that, I have made the decision I've made.

I want you to know that I always tried to act in the best interests of both of us; but I know that I did not always succeed. By not taking care of my own happiness, I lessened yours. I played such a big role in creating the environment in which you strayed.
However, I do not take responsibility for the decisions you made. And I can't be with you as long as you do not see them as mistakes. Right now I am very hurt by the way you have treated me.
I still am very moved, though, by thoughts of all you have done for me in the past.
Something that makes me very sad is that, right now, W, you seem to see any kind impulse toward me as something to be avoided, as signs of your seeing me as weak. I see those impulses as the natural feelings of a decent human being toward someone who has been her partner in life.
I have gotten the feeling that you want to avoid those impulses because your own needs have suffered from your attempts to meet mine. If that is the case, I would say: My needs have also suffered from trying to meet yours. My point of view is that, to some extent, that is something that comes along with marriage; that we both needed to a better job of being aware of this, taking care of both our needs at the same time, and thus making the reward much greater than the cost. But unfortunately, I think, it takes a few years of marriage to discover what the mistakes we are making are, precisely.
Anyway, as I've tried to show you many times, I have been willing to do anything and everything to fix those mistakes and solve our problems. I think I still feel that way. But we have to do it together. While you are with another man, communicating in a new way is simply not something I am fully capable of.

I hope that you can work out what it is you want in life. Whatever happens, I think it will be a long time before we are out of each others' hearts.
Finally, I hope that if you decide that what you want includes being with me, I will still feel the same way.
Love,
Determination

Determination:

With your permission I would like to take a crack at your letter. The stuff in bold is what I would keep or add. These are my suggestions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Here it is:Dear W,

Although I already told you I didn't think we should communicate for now, I wanted to write you a letter, to make sure I could express all of what I wanted to say to you at this time (although I'm sure I'll continue to think of more things later.) It makes me sad that this is not the usual kind of love letter that has meant so much to both of us. That is not because I don't love you. I love you very deeply. You are such a big part of who I am. I want to hold you, to be with you, make love to you, to be old with you. I want you to be always in my heart. You're the most brilliant cutefun [pet name] around.

Right now though, as the most recent events have underlined, it seems to me that you are far from being able to be the wife that I need. I need you to be able to empathize with me, and put my interests above those of another man. At this point in time you have brought another man into your life and there needs to be a decision made. Since you seem unable to do that, I have I have decided to cease contact with you to protect what love I do have left for you. I want you to know that I always tried to act in the best interests of both of us; but I know that I did not always succeed. By not taking care of my own happiness, I lessened yours. I played such a big role in creating the environment in which you strayed.
However, I do not take responsibility for the decisions you made. And I can't be with you as long as you do not see them as mistakes. Right now I am very hurt by the way you have treated me. I still am very moved, though, by thoughts of all you have done for me in the past.
Something that makes me very sad is that, right now, W, you seem to see any kind impulse toward me as something to be avoided, as signs of your seeing me as weak. I see those impulses as the natural feelings of a decent human being toward someone who has been her partner in life. I have gotten the feeling that you want to avoid those impulses because your own needs have suffered from your attempts to meet mine. If that is the case, I would say: My needs have also suffered from trying to meet yours. My point of view is that, to some extent, that is something that comes along with marriage; that we both needed to a better job of being aware of this, taking care of both our needs at the same time, and thus making the reward much greater than the cost. But unfortunately, I think, it takes a few years of marriage to discover what the mistakes we are making are, precisely.

Anyway, as I've tried to show you many times, I have been willing to do anything and everything to fix those mistakes and solve our problems. I think I still feel that way. But we have to do it together. While you are with another man, communicating in a new way is simply not something I am fully capable of.

I hope that you can work out what it is you want in life. Whatever happens, I think it will be a long time before we are out of each others' hearts

Finally, I hope that if you decide that what you want includes being with me, I will still feel the same way.

If you decide to remove OM from your life, I stand ready and willing to do anything I can to rebuild our marriage. Until then I hope that you respect my request to cease communications of any sort. I hope that you can work out what it is you want in life and find the happiness that you seek. Whatever happens, it will be a long time before you are out of my heart.

Love,
Determination </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Determination, the things I took out were because you are "educating" your W. This won't work. This is simply a love letter, that should remind here that you are simply preserving your love for her by doing this, you are ready to work on things, and that you realize your mistakes and take responsibility for them.

So maybe this will start your letter in this direction. It is important that she understand and see that you are not trying to punish her.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Thanks for the quick input. I think all of your suggestions make perfect sense. At the same time, I have been moved, by those recent events I alluded to, to a point of real ambivalence. I'm not convinced at the moment that I want to save the marriage at any cost. Possibly this is just a phase, but maybe I should skip writing the letter. I don't feel like being dishonest.

Glad to see you back, although wish the circumstances could be different.
I agree with JL, with his revised letter. JL, you took the words right out of my mouth, that it sounds like Determination was educating his wife. I think that the re-write is wonderful.
Yes, I know that the most recent events have caused your tone to change, but the meaning behind the letter hasn't, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Your wife sounds so much like me...my OM was obnoxious, demeaning, spiteful, manipulative and a liar to boot...all of this while I was involved with him. I was just too "blind/stupid" to let myself see it. But I tell you, now that it has been almost a year of recovery and I look back to the way he treated me...I get sick to my stomach to think that I let ANYONE treat me that way. But at the time he was filling so many of my EN's that I could ?control it and he wasn?t really that way?. Sound familiar?
Does your W know about this site? I don?t remember?does she know about the support you get here and about all of US who have been in her shoes? I would love to have a chance to just sit and listen to her for a while. I KNOW EXACTLY what she is feeling. It would have been nice to talk with someone when I was in the ?fog?, someone who wouldn?t judge me or try to tell me what to do. Just someone to shed some light on the situation.
Please, like I said earlier, feel free to contact us at home. Either one of us will be more than willing to talk to either one of you about ANYTHING!!! If you thought it would help, I?d even be happy to TALK to your wife sometime. People still do use phones for communication?right??!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PLEASE EXCUSE ALL THE TYPOS IN MY PREVIOUS POST!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I am working with a severe headache here... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Determination,

Go ahead and send the letter when you get it the way you want. It doesn't matter if you are not sure you want to save the marriage. If you haven't promised that you will be around when she comes out of this. You have promised to not contact her until the OM is out of the picture. That may or may not be too late. That will be your call.

So polish up the letter and send it to her. Plan B always helps the sender, but it doesn't stop the lost of love. It just slows it down. If it is lost before she comes around, then you are ready for the divorce, know you have done your all, and you will feel much better for it. Plan B has several things going for it. One of which is that you are better prepared if the marriage does fail.

God Bless,

JL