</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mapleleaf:
<strong>...I think it is the same with our WSs when we are in plan B. They have to be told in a non LBing way what they need to do to be with us and this has to be consistent. In the same way that the psychologist did not look at the child and did not say anything, we must not talk OR or fulfill WS's needs in any way until they are ready to demonstrate that they can behave in a acceptable way.

SC, you did very well telling your wife what she needed to do. You did it in a quiet, responsible way and I am sure it got her attention. Keep up the good work.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's agreat analogy, ML. Exactly the same thing.

I guess in my case, since I'm "between Plan A and Plan B" with elements of both right now, it feels a little confusing to me and surely to my W. ("OK he comes here, spends 11 hours fixing my pc, and THEN he says THAT!?!?! what's going on????") Once the letter is delivered, and the full impact of Plan B takes effect, things will be clear for both of us. The "rules" are set. It becomes crystal clear then.

Close Call! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I went home to pick up the twins, I'd comitted to going to get their school supplies, W offered me coffee so I sat down with her. Chatted about a few "house" things, nothing major. I reminded her of our apptmt with Steve tomorrow (felt I should since I've usually set them on Tuesdays and this week it was on Monday) so she says; "It turns out I won't be able to attend that; S has to go to court to get his ticket dismissed, and I have to go with him."
A minor panic started gripping me...I said to myself Oh, NO!!! now I'll have to wait ANOTHER full week before she talks to Steve! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> NOOOOOOO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I think I got a little flustered, and said "That's no good" to stall for time while I thought about it. I must have been a bit uncomfortable, as I stuggled to think!
So finally I said; "Tell you what; I'll take S to court, you take the appointment." and she said "Are you sure?, did you get a chance to talk with Steve last week?" and I said "Yes, I got a cancellation he had. So I don't really need to speak with him again as much as you." I regretted having said that as soon as I said it, but she didn't say anything, she didn't say she didn't, and appeared to agreee.
I started breathing easier, calmed down a bit. Then I said "That'll work then, you take the appointment, I'll take S. Maybe you can make it a bit shorter that the full hour, if Steve wants to talk to me. Just ask him. If he does, have him call me on my cell anytime. OK?" and she said "OK".

Wow, it's weird, I feel like things are going well, feeling confident, and then the possibility of having to wait another week to see what the deal with her is, whether she's going to have the talk or not, or we go to full Plan B, panicked me!!!

It shows us how very close to the edge we really are. Not nearly as in-control as we feel sometimes!
Glad I was able to "straighten" that one out!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm going to leave Steve a message anyway.

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hey, I've got his 8:00 CST slot... Hope you don't have any before that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I want to talk to him before lunch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JR, you'd better talk quickly, because ours is the 9AM Central! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi- I've been reading your posts among others on this site..........I'm pretty new to all this and have mostly been just a silent observer. Anyway, I think you are handling things much better than I could have if I were in your situation! I know this probably doesn't have an answer, but I really want to know how much more time you are going to give your WW to make a decision. First to cheat and then to stall for time and put your life on hold because of it, it just seems so unfair. I hope I am not making you feel bad- please understand I am also dealing with a WS and I guess I am in a much more bitter stage. He is reluctant to do what I need to even consider getting back together and working through things, and I don't know if I trust myself to do Plan A. HOW do you not lose your cool? I get so ANGRY!!! It just seems like the WS get away with everything and we just suffer in silence, and on top of it we have to be nice and placating to them! I feel like I am condoning what he did/is doing.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I really do hope everything will get better for you- you deserve it!

Hey, Libbie6! Glad you came by! First of all, a big, big hug! This must be a hard time for you, and we're sorry you're going thru this.
Let me answer a few things for you, and I suggest you start a new thread with your story, where we can lal visit and help you. OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong>Hi- I've been reading your posts among others on this site..........I'm pretty new to all this and have mostly been just a silent observer. Anyway, I think you are handling things much better than I could have if I were in your situation! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're probably right L6, but remember this; I've been at this for 11 MONTHS!!! That's a long time, and I've learned a lot. So don't be hard on yourself, you are feeling and doing what we ALL felt and did!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know this probably doesn't have an answer, but I really want to know how much more time you are going to give your WW to make a decision. First to cheat and then to stall for time and put your life on hold because of it, it just seems so unfair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is a hard question to answer. And my answer is different from yours. We each have our limits, and our other issues and circumstances, and all of that put together determines what we do and for how long.
In my case, first, I didn't discover MB and other types of help for several months after DDay, so when I did, I thought it was only fair to me and my family to give it a good shot; and that meant learning enough to do a solid Plan A for about 6 months or so. During that time, I learned to hurt less, to be less emotional, and a whole lot of other things. And believe me, I have NOT learned all I should have, and I have NOT done all I could have. But that's what I did. And now, the circumstances were right to go to Plan B, and for a couple of weeks, this semi-Plan B, based on Steve Harley's suggestion, and my W's behavior.
Probably tomorrow we'll decide if full Plan B is necessary or if she shows more REAL signs of progress. After that, I'm thinking 3 months of Plan B, then I file for divorce; In Texas it takes at least 60 days for that to happen if it all uncontested and smooth, so that means another 2-3 months of Plan B...total of 6. That will mean I gave our M 1 1/2 years of hard work...if it works, great! if not, I know I did my best.
Now these plans WILL change. Things we have no idea about or have thought of WILL happen, it's always like that. So, the motto is: Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I hope I am not making you feel bad- please understand I am also dealing with a WS and I guess I am in a much more bitter stage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all, on the contrary, I'm glad you asked. Sometimes we need to step back and take a look at what we're doing and question it. Review it. So thank you!

About the bitterness; it IS NORMAL! Your DDay was probably a short time ago, right? There will be bitterness and anger, and a whole lot of other nasty feelings before you start feeling better. But you will, I promise!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He is reluctant to do what I need to even consider getting back together and working through things, and I don't know if I trust myself to do Plan A. HOW do you not lose your cool? I get so ANGRY!!! It just seems like the WS get away with everything and we just suffer in silence, and on top of it we have to be nice and placating to them! I feel like I am condoning what he did/is doing. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not easy L6, it's not easy. The forst thing you will have to learn is that this is NOT about what HE does, it's about what YOU do; for you and for him. Yes, I know that sounds crazy and illogical, but trust me; that's the truth. (And just ask Pep or Orchid how long it took ME to get it!!! LOL!!! They almost gave up on me I was so stubborn!)
None of us are able to do a good Plan A from the starting gate. We all blow it, many, many times. That's OK, we just get up, dust ourselves off, wipe the mud from our faces, and start over.
And we DO loose our cool, I even loose it now, after all these months! But less than before!
Anger is the normal feeling to have right now. (You probably started with Denial, right? This can't be happening!) Anger will make way to Bargaining/Negotiating, Depression, and then Acceptance. Tha faster you can move through these stages, the faster you can be ready to actually do something really positive about it. (Don't worry, we'll help you thru these!).
And although it seems we're placating them and condoning their behavior, we will begin to establish boundaries which show them that we do not condone this. But for a little time, it will seem that way.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I really do hope everything will get better for you- you deserve it! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you L6, I appreciate it!

Start your thread, tell us your story, give us some details, and we'll go from there, OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I guess we reach yet another milestone tomorrow; WW should speak with Steve at 9AM, and we'll see what she says about changing her mind about talking to me last week, and what she has in mind going forward. Perhaps her take on my fixing the pc and what I said...

I Imagine we'll be moving into full Plan B, but who knows? Maybe not...

SC,

I wish your WW come around and see what a loving husband your are to her. How can she not?? Plan-B is a real B#&$*! After 4 months of separation myself, another night of feeling alone, I just broke down and cried. I guess its a process I have to get through...

Take care.

Steve just called me.

He just had a few minutes, but wanted to get me up to date on what's going on.
My W told him she had NOT spoken to me as she'd promised him she'd do. Why? No real reason, the ususl run-around, not ready, too soon, not sure....

So he hit her hard. Treated her like a "hostile witness" (his words). Told her in no uncertain terms, that unless she acts, "this is not going to work". That she cannot wait for the "feeling" to come before she acts, it will be too late. That just like when you exercise, you have to exercise to receive the benefits; energy, weight loss, stength. Likewise with this process of falling in love again. You must take the ateps FIRST, the feelings will come from taking the steps, doing the work. If she waits for the feelings, it will be too late.

So I asked him; "Is this real? I mean is she going to do this because she is starting to get it, or because you are pressuring her, or because she's afraid of losing me, or what?" and he answered; "Oh, it's real. See, I'm the only one asking her, demanding that she answer the tough questions. Forcing her to take a look at herself in ways she hasn't dared to before." so I insisted "Steve, but is it real? do you feel that she is getting it or is she promising to do this because she's scared, because I left, because of fear? Is it real in the sense that she really wants this, or is it another stall tactic, is it just to buy more time?" I mean I don't want a false recovery, a temporary salve to the wound. I would rather go to Plan B, wait, whatever, but I don't want a fake recovery to bring me home only to have to reach the stage I had to reach before so I can leave again! That would be devastating!

So he went on; "SC, we have a window of opportunity here. She has lost contact with the OM, that has hurt, that has made her evaluate, look at her life, question some long-held beliefs, 'truths'. This is our opportunity to get her to open up, to start working on your love...even if later on she again has the opportunity to visit the OM, by then it'll be too late for that. She'll be in love with you again. This is all still to a great extent related to her privacy/individuality thing, but she is starting to see the damage that has done to her life, to your marriage. I have made her look at herself in ways she has not looked before, to face the harsh reality. Granted we're not fully there yet, but it has started. It IS real."

Then he asked me; "SC, your Plan B letter is ready, right?" "Right" I said. "OK, so here's what we're going to do. She has promised to do this by Thursday night. That's the deadline I gave her. Can you make it till Friday?" and I said yes. "OK, so make an appointment to speak with me on Friday. If she goes through with it, we'll see what she said, and go from there. If she doesn't go through with it, if she backs out again, then we press on with a full Plan B. She knows this is one of her last chances. I told her that. And she's seeing it now."

So there we are. She is starting to see the light? Maybe. But at least I know she is not going with what her Psychologist has been saying, she's following what Steve is asking. She knows she's not been honest with her IC, and she knows Steve knows the truth. She may be reaching the point where she knows she can no longer run from herself. I hope so.

What has caused this? Who knows? the loss of contact with the OM, Steve's hard questions, my leaving, time, my apparent "ready to move on" act, remorse, who knows? And really, who cares? the point is it looks like something is working. Perhaps one day we'll know what it was that caused it, perhaps not.

I do know that my father called her last night. I don't what he said, but I know he loves her and cares for her very much. And if anything, he's even kinder and more understanding than I am. To the point that even if we divorced, he'd probably still help her. As he has continued to fully support my mother even though he's remarried and they divorced in 1979. Maybe he said something key...?

I have my doubts. Somehow I still believe that full Plan B has it's "educational" purposes and value, that perhaps Plan B is a good thing in terms of a lifelong lesson worth learning. But will I want to do it even if we don't need it? probably not.

So the waiting game continues, this time with a hard deadline...last chance...your thoughts?

I like that he didn't let her get away with "I'm not ready, I'm not sure, let's wait and see". That's a game that can go on forever.

I like what Pepperband wrote on JR's thread...you were given mention there so I hope you read it.

You gotta let her get unbalance and you HAVE to let her fall. Kind of sounds like your Dad has a hard time letting people fall too.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>I like that he didn't let her get away with "I'm not ready, I'm not sure, let's wait and see". That's a game that can go on forever.

I like what Pepperband wrote on JR's thread...you were given mention there so I hope you read it.

You gotta let her get unbalance and you HAVE to let her fall. Kind of sounds like your Dad has a hard time letting people fall too.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve is VERY, VERY good. He has held her in a way the other 3 Cs couldn't. And what's even more amazing, is that he's really pretty hard on her!

My dad; few times has the world seen a man like that. I have no hope of accomplishing or becoming half the man he is. An inspiration and a pillar of my life.

Wow, SC:

I have to admit I'm impressed! I guess I better get that homework done and get another session with Steve set up. If anyone can get my W interested in talking to them, Steve must be it.

I am having a hard time not being apathetic right now. I've done well at not LBing, not talking about R issues AT ALL since I came back home, but the result is that I'm getting more and more to where I feel like I don't care all that much. And a big part of that feeling is due to knowing that my W has "privacy issues" that may be as deeply ingrained as your own W's are. I REALLY don't want to be dealing with this in another 5 months, when my D-day anniversary rolls around. Really, I don't.

SC:

And a bit about the "differentiation" stuff. I'd actually recommend you skip to that chapter, read it, then start the book over. I got a lot out of that. Best stuff I've read about being an individual in a M from ANYWHERE. There's a lot to it, but a couple of things have stood out in my mind, because of my sitch:
1). Something JL said somewhere recently, to the effect of "true individuals have the least trouble committing to another person in a M". Those weren't his exact words (the exact words were probably much more eloquent), but the gist is that individuality is NOT stifled by being in a committed R. It's allowed to blossom, due to the support and intimacy.
2). WS's often say that their OP has "brought out the best in them". This isn't the case. Like when I said in my plan B draft "vent" to my W: "YOU made yourself the scientist you are today, not ME, not Rat Meat." It's this insecurity that leads people to have As and justify them with nonsense statements like the above. One needs to complete one's self, love one's self, and take pride in their own accomplishments. Only then can we truly have a fulfilling M relationship by sharing ourselves with our S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Wow, SC:

I have to admit I'm impressed! I guess I better get that homework done and get another session with Steve set up. If anyone can get my W interested in talking to them, Steve must be it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to admit I'm a little incredulous myself. I FULLY expected the "old" WW with her self-righteous indignation to show up and tell Steve to shove it, that she was NOT going to get pushed around by, of all THINGS, 2 men!!! Or some such venomous invective.

Especially since she's gotten herself one of these "well-meaning therapists" (in our friend's sister) who is clueless and still recites the "what do you need to do to reach what you want, without regard for your M or those around you"

As it is, I'm very, very skeptical of this actually being a major breakthrough. More like "how little do I have to give up to get him home?" or something like that. We'll see. I'm going to figure out how to manage that so I can verify it's authenticity.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I am having a hard time not being apathetic right now. I've done well at not LBing, not talking about R issues AT ALL since I came back home, but the result is that I'm getting more and more to where I feel like I don't care all that much.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; I strongly suspect this feeling is self-protection more than real apathy. Look in your heart...you DO love her...I know it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And a big part of that feeling is due to knowing that my W has "privacy issues" that may be as deeply ingrained as your own W's are. I REALLY don't want to be dealing with this in another 5 months, when my D-day anniversary rolls around. Really, I don't. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you mean. This privacy thing's gotta go sometime...and soon! And I'M not as concerned about dealing with it 5 months down the road as I am of having it rear it's ugly head 5 YEARS down the road! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

About Passionate Marriage, I think I'll follow your advice and read Diffenentiation first. It's interesting; a lot of that is going to be very valuable for my W, if she ever chooses to read it.
I wonder what Steve thinks of Passionate Marriage. I'll bet he likes it!

Thanks 2L! Glad to have you around!

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Since Steve really didn't give me much guidance in terms of handling the "talk" my W is supposed to have with me, I'd like to outline my thoughts and expectations, see what everyone thinks. I'm sure I'll get good feedback.

I guess the first thing I'll say is that I don't expect much. At least in the first conversation, I expect she'll be "feeling me out" to make sure that I'm not going to go ballistic on her, maybe putting some stuff out there to see how/if it sticks, and maybe, if I'm lucky, she might venture into some of the things she is willing/going to do.

In general, my strategy is just to listen, stay calm and see where she's going with this. I have no idea if she interprets Steve's "Radical Honesty and Evidence" the same way Steve and I do...maybe, maybe not. Probably not!

And before we get into some specific actions, perhaps it is best to try to gauge her mood, willingness, understanding, of what this is and how to go about trying to fix it. I was thinking of watching for things like:

Remorse
Comittment to M
Desire to learn
Acceptance of responsibility
Belief in our future
What made her decide to...do whatever it is she's trying to do!
Am I missing some here?

I was also thinking that it will probably take a "few" talks before I should be willing to go home...
at least two. That will make it a process she would have to work through. I'm sure she's not just going to offer up the "key" items I'd listed as needed to go home...so I can say she's doing good, I'm proud and happy, and I'm going to think about it and get back to her...maybe then start talking about some "deliverables" she'd need to make. I don't know, but I guess it could go something like that?

These are the ones I'd written before:
Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
· Demonstrated End of R with OM
· Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to Radical Honesty
· Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
· Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
· OM knows it's over and rebuilding M - NC letter
· OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
· Other Characters know it’s over / NC
· Letter to Warden ending Communications
· Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
· Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
· Tell me the real story
· Answer my questions about this
· Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

I mean there are a lot of things; a lot of the "story" has now been proven not to be true or complete, but that would probably come later. I don't really care about that right now. I DO care about an understanding that the time to answer questions WILL come.

And I have other fears. What if she tells me these 2 As I'm aware of were only the first and last and that there were x number of others in between....it's HAS been nearly 15 years since the first one...what then? Can I handle that? Would she risk saying it even if it were true? Scary stuff, this!

The key thing for me will be to gauge if this is "REAL". Is she being honest, has she begun to "see the light", what is she prepared to give up, how far is she willing to go, to "expose" herself...or is this just one more "card" in her stalling arsenal she's playing...that maybe is why I'd like to make it "a process" so she has the opportunity to show some consistent behavior over x number of days, weeks, meetings...your thoughts? Thanks!!!

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC, two things:

1) About what made her decide to do what she is going to do, she may not know. There is lots of confusion for a WS - emotions and thoughts conflict with themselves and each other. I am still not sure my wife knows, 10 mos later, but the recovery is real.

2) About the possibility of other A's: ironically, if she tells you, this is really great, because it is proof she is committe to Radical Honesty, AND that she trusts you enough to be honest. If it happens, try to hold on to those truths through the pain, and keep from letting your anger overwhelm you. Embrace the pain. Don't ignore the anger, but don't let it control you, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>SC, two things:

1) About what made her decide to do what she is going to do, she may not know. There is lots of confusion for a WS - emotions and thoughts conflict with themselves and each other. I am still not sure my wife knows, 10 mos later, but the recovery is real.

2) About the possibility of other A's: ironically, if she tells you, this is really great, because it is proof she is committe to Radical Honesty, AND that she trusts you enough to be honest. If it happens, try to hold on to those truths through the pain, and keep from letting your anger overwhelm you. Embrace the pain. Don't ignore the anger, but don't let it control you, either.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good insight, John; I'd say you are right on both counts. Thanks!

How you doin' SpaceMonkey?

This is some weird stuff .... life does not hand us the script we were hoping for, that's for sure.

Try to relax .... the energy of love and healing can flow through you if you relax.

(there she is again ... The DaliPepper) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thank you DaliPepper! I DO love you! Your suggested reading is challenging, your esoteric and spiritual guidance is invaluable, and your humor is unequalled! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

However, I would like feedback on my thoughts about handling this very squirmy and slippery WS...lest she get away once again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

???Space<strong>Monkey</strong>????

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC,

just skimming & wanted you to know that you were thought about it.

Hoping you won't be celebrating that anv in Plan B.