Affairs that don't end...2B...or not 2B? - Marriage Builders® Forums

The most amazing thing has happened. Let me tell you the story and you guys tell me.

OK, to set the stage; I left my home last week, moved into a extended stay nearby, and was preparing to go to full Plan B; delivering the letter, and going "dark". That was supposed to happen tomorrow, as originally planned. My wife had a session with Steve at 10AM, and I miraculously got another session at 1PM (a cancellation).
Naturally, I was very interested in hearing what my W had said to Steve, after my being out of the house for nearly a week, and to iron out the details of going to Plan B with Steve. In fact yesterday, the idea of NOT going Dark and delivering the letter was circulated and debated, and I had concluded that I'd stick to the plan, as my W's actions were positive, but not a breakthrough worth a change in plans.

Steve comes on and he's baiting me! Really! "SC, are you OK?" "I mean REALLY OK?" "Are you sure?" "Tell me how you're doing..." So I say "Steve, stop that! What did W say!?!?!?!?!?!" so he goes on and
asks me to bring him up to speed on what happened since last week's call. So I tell him about my conversation with W, letting her know I'm leaving because I can't stand the pain of her divided love, and her reactions, and our other conversations, and the outburst I had where I spilled all this stuff, and the calls and the e-cards and the kisses, and thanks and hugs, the BBQ, and all that stuff that had the forum up in arms about stopping Plan B. Then he says "well, she didn't tell me all of that. Do you think she knows why you left and what it will take for you to come back?" and I said "Well, she's heard it all before, she doesn't have it clear in black and white in front of her with a Plan B letter, but she knows. And I was very clear about why I left; the pain and removing myself from her triangle." Then he asks "well, what WOULD it take for you to go back home?"... I almost fell back with my chair!...so I think about it for a bit and said; "Well it would take a committment to end the R w/OM, and a way to demonstrate it, and disclosure that would show me goodwill, that she's giving up her hard-fought methods, assurances of no future contact, the desire to work on our M, and implementing an escalating number of the principles...I'd go home if I got something like that. What's going on? what did she say!?!?!?!"

He stops...just silence for an eternity...then says "Well, W has a whole series of issues, all of them related to this "independence" thing of hers, this "privacy" thing, and those are the things that are holding her back, those are the things that are preventing her from making progress, and from having success. She feels that if she gives those up, she's giving her individuality up, she's conceding her image as a human being. And I keep telling her that it is obvious that what she's done up to now does not work, that she should give my ideas a try." then stops again...and then goes on "But she's lonely. She misses you very much." DONG!!!! I said "You're kidding!" he says "No. She is very lonely and she probably did not think you'd really leave. Now she didn't come out and tell me this, she started beating around the bush and I eventually got it out of her. But she basically wanted to know what it would take for you to come back home..." at this point I'm breaking down...almost crying...thoughts rushing through my head, doubts, happiness, fears, hope, anger...I swear I don't know what else Steve said...then I heard him again "And I told her the MB Weekend in SF had been cancelled, and she asked when the next one was, and I told her in October, and she said, OK, good, by then we should be ready for that." So I'm not even believing this, I'm firing off questions to Steve: what does this mean, how did this come about, do you think it's sincere, what did you tell her, did this come from her or did you suggest it, what is she willing to do, what, how, where, who, and Steve's answering I don't know, perhaps, she will tell you, what do you think?, you'll have to decide for yourself, etc.

So then I said "So what did you tell her?" and he says "I told her that the only thing that will work now is Radical Honesty, and evidence. That if she keeps doing what she's been doing, she is destroying her M; and it's only because she wants to keep doing what doesn't work. And she's begun to understand that now." And I said, "So what is she going to do? What did she tell you?" And he said "I don't know. She said she was going to talk to you. She understands now that if she doesn't start giving up this individuality thing and starts acting like a team member, she's always going to fail. And she knows that it'll take Radical Honesty and Evidence. And she said she was going to talk to you. You are going to have to decide if it is enough, and if it is sincere, and if you can believe her." and I said "Steve, what's different between what she said she'd do today and what she agreed she'd do last week? (Re-do Steve's 3-Steps, this time not omitting things). He said "I don't know, but I do know that she now is beginning to understand that what she's been doing is leading her to failure, not only in your M, but in her life. I think she is understanding that now."

Naturally, I am in total shock. I can't believe this, it doesn't seem real.

Then Steve goes on "She has very serious doubts as to your ability to re-build love and care in your M. She asks "What about me? What do I get?" and I told her that the success of that is ALSO dependent on her working as a team, and not as an individual. The same thing applies; what you've been doing does not work. You know that. That is confirmed now. You have to try something else, why not try the team approach, what I'm suggesting? I know this works, it's worked for a lot of other people. And she seems willing to do it, but you have to reinforce and be encouraging about your belief in the future."

And them we went into a bunch of logistics stuff, sessions, Plan B on hold, how I should act during separation, (Interesting; no Plan A behavior; courteous but distant, no touching, kissing, nothing like that, it's sending mixed signals; I've left because I'm in pain when I'm with you, yet I kiss you when I see you)
DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her...listen to her, see what she gets and what she doesn't get, see if she'll offer things like a NC letter, I didn't ask her for that, but we've talked about it...see what she does. Just reinforce your belief in the future together, in your ability to recreate a fulfilling M for both of you.

In essence, this is a major surprise. For Steve AND for me. I never imagined she'd start sending peace offerings this quick, I expected a bigger fight, a longer fight, a LOT more stubborn determination not to cave, etc. etc. But with the signals she's sent, and some other stuff my D told me today (Like mom has been VERY nice to them (I expected her wrath to come down on them!), and that mom has seen many, many things that need doing which you did and now she can't do and doesn't know how to do...halleluya!

I'm very happy, I've come back to life, I think, but I am trying to be very very cautious and suspicious of anything until I see concrete actions. This could turn out to be another ploy to keep things going, to stall some more, buy some more time...

So that's the gist of it. I'm exhausted. What is certain is this; what I (and others) considered the nay-sayers yesterday, were partially correct; she DID send some strong signals that were unexpected, and they DID lead to what looks like a major peace offering today. And since that is the case, Plan B letter and Going Dark are currently on hold, until after she talks to me...we'll see what she says.

So; help me out here. What should I hold out for, what is negotiable, what can I accept a committment to (as opposed to doing it now), what now? What needs to happen here for me to come home? I have my ideas...what do you all think?

OK, I need ideas for the sub-title to this thread..."Affairs that don't end...Plan B? Maybe Not...", "...Maybe they DO end!", ok, you get the idea! I'm all out of steam here...back later with more, I'm sure.

[ August 14, 2002, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Spacecase,

You are already in a good hand (SH) ... make sure you sit down and be RH to yourself ... what will ammend you to be able to put your self back. You have already a good list ...
"Well it would take a committment to end the R w/OM, and a way to demonstrate it, and disclosure that would show me goodwill, that she's giving up her hard-fought methods, assurances of no future contact, the desire to work on our M, and implementing an escalating number of the principles...I'd go home if I got something like that. ....

Sit back and wait for her call ... tell her exactly that and work out on the detail .... before you come home. Hang tight ... until she calls and talks RH to you ... keep your hope down. You might even talk to her in person ... watch her body language and so on. Take the peace offering and good luck.

-RH-

Remember Spacey ... she is learning to walk here .... and she has independence issues ... so you're teaching her how to walk, showing her how to walk, drawing illustrations on how to walk, are all considered hostile moves from her POV.

SHUT UP AND RELAX! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... These two things are difficult for YOU to do simultaneously when dealing with the anxiety of waiting for your W to independently walk towards a new M with you... but, with practice ... you can soothe your anxiety without attempting to educate your W.

EDUCATE YOURSELF on ways to self-soothe your anxiety and your discomfort WITHOUT educating your W.

YOU 'da man!

~*~*~*

Yippee ...... she's lonely! A very real consequence ...... a necessary discomfort. Let her experience this moment fully. DO NOT SOOTHE HER .... soothe yourself.

This is soooooo cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Yeah!

What redhat and Pepperband said.

Hang in there. Be cool. Let her worry and chase you for a while.

ST

WOW!!!

That really is a surprise!

Take it slow...this is a really good start! I'm so cautiously happy for you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh, and my vote for what to call the thread (in case your taking any)....How do you spell that sound that's made when you run your finger rapidly up and down over your lips? That'd be what I'd call it, LOL!!

[ August 13, 2002, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: hope4future ]

PS ....

Your anxiety pushes you to rush solutions ... don't listen to that anxiety.

Slow works better than fast with healing... and with sex too ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (Had to throw that in ... I self-soothe with humor, in case you couldn't tell. LOL)

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC,

I have no idea what to tell her, since she really hasn't spoken to you. The independence thing is difficult, but if you do get into a discussion along those lines, I think it may help you to recall that you are very dependent on her, but that doesn't mean you cannot be independent. It is a choice just as moving away was, and plan B will be, and yes even divorce if it comes to that. You can exist independently from her because you are independent. You have choosen to depend on her, because it has brought you happiness and you hope it will again.

I know you cannot educate her, but most independent people function very well depending on others. It is the ones that really cannot be independent that often seem to have problems with this issue.

It will be an interesting next few days. I would not rush to go back, but I do think that having the OM out of the picture is really what needs to happen. She will have to come up with some ideas of how to do this. After all you do expect "independent" thinking on her part right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Isn't interesting how confused these thought patterns can get. You want her to think independently, ie to love you because she wants to, be your W because she wants to, yet her need to act independently complete confounds that very thing.

Man I am glad I don't do this stuff for a living aren't you SC? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think on the whole this is very good news, but it would seem that you should expect some slow going. Yet, there could be some good surprises. Today hasn't been half bad has it SC?

God Bless,

JL

Wow! Lots of responses, thanks!!!

Redhat; Indeed, I will not rush home. This'll be like the baseball owners/players negotiations, I hope.

Pep; OK, Shut up and relax, Educate ME, and slow is better...even with sex. Gotcha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sad Tiger; Yes, I think I'll enjoy the chase...it's been SO long since ANYONE chased me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

H4F; Got it; Slow, slow, easy does it...Oh, and that sound you're thinking of cannot be written, but I think it resembles "DUH!" right?

JL; As usual, you're making me think, so I will. Get back to you on those!
And yes, I AM glad I don't do this for a living!
And NO! today has not been bad at all...in fact... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No, not duh, that sound is more appropriate just before SMACK (hand hitting forehead)... I was thinking more like blblubbblbbblubbbllbbblll.

I'm not sure...it might have a silent ph in there somewhere.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Great responses here... not much to add. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll ponder, sleep on it, see what develops on this thread, and come up with something intelligent for you tomorrow (that's not a promise! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

Here's a high five for ya!!! But not too high!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:


Steve comes on and he's baiting me! Really! "SC, are you OK?" "I mean REALLY OK?" "Are you sure?" <hr /></blockquote>Steve calls you Spacecase?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This all sounds very promising. It seems like moving out is clearing her fog, which is great news, Space!

Spacecase,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her<hr /></blockquote>Just reminding you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would let your wife lead the conversation, and reinforce the idea of working on this as a team, using the POJA and radical honesty. If she's not making the suggestions that you 'need' to consider moving back, see if she asks for your opinion. If she does, throw out one, and phrase it as "how would you feel about..."

I think you're in pretty good shape (but then, I always did). Don't be in a hurry---and remember to see this from her POV as well. I can see plenty of negotiation room on 'independence', if she's willing to put the time into the marriage.

spasecase
I just wanted to tell you, your post sounded so excited.. I decided to get my husband to call steve and see if we can work on some things.
I dont post much on gq but have been reading. I wish you luck.

[ August 13, 2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]

Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!

how about "Time to shake the screws out"
(ya know, turn them upside down, shake those screws out, install some magnets that just happen to come straight to you!)

[ August 13, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: going_crazy ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MelodyLane:
Steve calls you Spacecase?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

This all sounds very promising. It seems like moving out is clearing her fog, which is great news, Space!<hr /></blockquote>No, no, he calls me by my name...I just changed it for the forum...but he DID ask what my screen name was on the forum; pretty early on when we started Cing.

It does sound promising, but I wonder if she's trying to blow some more smoke up my....

[ August 13, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
Spacecase,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />DO NOT under ANY circumstances use this conversation to try to EDUCATE her<hr /></blockquote>Just reminding you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Yes. I know. Maybe I'll take a double-dose of Wellbutrin, AND have a beer before I go...I don't know, I'll do SOMETHING to shut myself up!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I would let your wife lead the conversation, and reinforce the idea of working on this as a team, using the POJA and radical honesty. If she's not making the suggestions that you 'need' to consider moving back, see if she asks for your opinion. If she does, throw out one, and phrase it as "how would you feel about..."<hr /></blockquote>This is excellent! I'm adding it to my Cliff's Notes for the meeting....IF I get a heads up ahead of time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I think you're in pretty good shape (but then, I always did). Don't be in a hurry---and remember to see this from her POV as well. I can see plenty of negotiation room on 'independence', if she's willing to put the time into the marriage. <hr /></blockquote>It's funny that you say that...you've always said that you thought I was in good shape. Never did inderstand why.

K, I don't get your meaning on the last part...room to negotiate on the "independence thing"? meaning...?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mom of five:
spasecase
I just wanted to tell you, your post sounded so excited.. I decided to get my husband to call steve and see if we can work on some things.
I dont post much on gq but have been reading. I wish you luck.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks MomOfFive.

I highly recommend Cing with Steve. It's not inexpensive, but one session with them (Steve or Jenn) is worth 3-4 of a regular IC...good luck!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by going_crazy:
Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!

how about "Time to shake the screws out"
(ya know, turn them upside down, shake those screws out, install some magnets that just happen to come straight to you!)<hr /></blockquote>Actually, GC, I DO follow your posts...haven't posted there, I don't think, but I have been reading them...quite a saga! And by the way, I think your hubby needs a knuckle to the frontal lobe! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (If you live within 100 miles of Houston, I volunteer!)

Well, I DID try the shake the screws tactic, but Steve thought it was an LB to grab my W by the ankles, turn her upside-down and shake her...don't have any idea why!? I thought it was Tough Love! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ August 13, 2002, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Oh boy! I'm re-reading that first post of mine...what an awful desecration of the english language and form! (My Lit Prof would slap me! Bless her heart.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I guess I was trying to make a brain-dump before forgetting everything... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I'll put you on the first plane here!!

WOW! I'm practically speechless! Don't know what to tell you except cinch up that seat belt - you're on one heckuva roller coaster! Hope the track levels out soon and y'all come safely and happily into the station.

My prayers are with you and family.

Here's my list:

Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by going_crazy:
Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!
<hr /></blockquote>Just what phase is the moon in anyway? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WW shows up here at the door after a 2 month NC with me. We're in the middle of DV.

OM is out. Adios. OMW is "with child". VERY VERY HUGE LB'er to WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> WW is at door crying. Says she misses the pets (cats), but she hadn't missed them for over 4 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe not the "only" reason? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Signs of "old" W seeping out. I really didn't need that in my sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well......maybe it's not the moon? I bet the humidity is low, causing the fog to lift some everywhere......

HCII

SC: can't those NASA guys down there put a big fogsucker in space for us. we can call it "spacecase"

Yeah, wierd about the moon...

WW called OM '[censored]' today... Not sure what to make of that. That is what I have called him occasionally.

Hang in there, but DON'T be messing around with your Wellbutrin doseage. And don't drink. Too much strain on your liver.

ST

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hcii:
Just what phase is the moon in anyway? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WW shows up here at the door after a 2 month NC with me. We're in the middle of DV.

OM is out. Adios. OMW is "with child". VERY VERY HUGE LB'er to WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> WW is at door crying. Says she misses the pets (cats), but she hadn't missed them for over 4 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe not the "only" reason? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Signs of "old" W seeping out. I really didn't need that in my sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well......maybe it's not the moon? I bet the humidity is low, causing the fog to lift some everywhere......

HCII<hr /></blockquote>I saw that! Amazing, just amazing! I'll tell you it's definitely NOT the low humidity! If you've EVER been to Houston, especially in August, you KNOW humidity is around 90%! LOL!

But; whatever it is, we'll take it! What's on your mind HCII? Plans?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by going_crazy:
SC: can't those NASA guys down there put a big fogsucker in space for us. we can call it "spacecase"<hr /></blockquote>Oh, I love it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And 2L's gonna love it even more!!! ROFLMAO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, maybe it's "Dump the OM/OW Week" and nobody told us!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Space:

Congratulations. I am happy for you. I am obviously no expert. It seems the biggest thing here is that your W recognizes you do have some importance in her life. I am somewhat more conservative on what the rest of her interaction with SH really means.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Then Steve goes on "She has very serious doubts as to your ability to re-build love and care in your M. She asks "What about me? What do I get?" and I told her that the success of that is ALSO dependent on her working as a team, and not as an individual. The same thing applies; what you've been doing does not work. You know that. That is confirmed now. You have to try something else, why not try the team approach, what I'm suggesting? I know this works, it's worked for a lot of other people. And she seems willing to do it, but you have to reinforce and be encouraging about your belief in the future."
<hr /></blockquote>What is the difference here from all her other negotiations to give just enough to keep you around? I am not trying to rain on your parade. I just want you to be cautious and stick to what you need to move on the M. Remember your taker must also be satisfied to avoid resentment.

As everyone pointed out so well, please listen very well to what she is telling you. What she is willing to add to the plan and what she has decided to do differently to help the M.

Although, everyone has pointed out the pitfalls of educating your W, I do think showing confidence that Spacecase can see a future w/ W and a happy M would be a good thing.

I don't know Space it still seems to me that time and your W true understanding that a good M and independence are not mutually exclusive. JL pointed out well a truly independent person has no difficulty being dependent on others.

Keep your eyes and EARS open Space.

All my prayers to your W that she truly sees your great value to her life.

I hope she really sees you are both a team as well as individuals.

Good for you Space.

Jack

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
What is the difference here from all her other negotiations to give just enough to keep you around? I am not trying to rain on your parade. I just want you to be cautious and stick to what you need to move on the M. Remember your taker must also be satisfied to avoid resentment.<hr /></blockquote>Jack; You are correct, and I clearly see it this way. I'm not over-expectant, just happy she's made a move so quickly. No parade here yet.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />As everyone pointed out so well, please listen very well to what she is telling you. What she is willing to add to the plan and what she has decided to do differently to help the M.<hr /></blockquote>Indeed; this is exactly what I'm looking for. Not the bare minimum to keep me around, but what she's actually learned/understood about what needs to happen and change.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Although, everyone has pointed out the pitfalls of educating your W, I do think showing confidence that Spacecase can see a future w/ W and a happy M would be a good thing.<hr /></blockquote>Correct. And that is EXACTLY what Steve asked me to do; reinforce my belief that we CAN have a future, a good one.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I don't know Space it still seems to me that time and your W true understanding that a good M and independence are not mutually exclusive. JL pointed out well a truly independent person has no difficulty being dependent on others.

Keep your eyes and EARS open Space.<hr /></blockquote>I'm under no illusions here. I know we have problems. Serious problems. And I know we may NOT be able to correct them, we may fail and discover we just cannot do this, or she cannot fall in love with me again, or 100s of other potential pitfalls...all I want is a fair chance to try. Without the OM and his influence to distort those efforts. The chance for a sincere effort, a real effort...that's all I ask.

Many thanks Jack!

Spacecase,

Your list looks pretty reasonable. I like the fact that you'll use Steve for negotiations (and I think that one aspect---Steve---is non-negotiable). Again, the phraseology for this would be "hey Hon, we're not coming to a consensus here---why don't we put it aside for now and let Steve help us on resolving it". Steve is there to help you navigate through the emotional landmines that accompany this type of recovery.

You had a question concerning room to negotiate on independence. The carrot I would use (but I'm not you) is that you schedule your 15 hrs/week together (hard schedules on each other's calendars) to rebuild. But acknowledge that your wife may need some time out to do stuff as well (and schedule that in). I would suggest that the only limitations on that be within the reconcilliation guidelines (like no OM stuff), and you might want to discuss limiting contact with friends who you are uncomfortable with. In other words, acknowledge her need as legitimate, and express a desire to try to meet it WITHOUT damaging the marriage.

Space,
Great news! Way to go, Man!!
You be the man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
You getting lots of good feedback - My take is to keep in mind what Steve said -- Listen -- don't educate -- My sense is that you still want to demonstrate lots of confidence of course & cool independence -- Am I correct that Steve said to not be affectionate - mixed signals -- In other words, I see it like you don't want to seem too anxious to make admends -- let her make her move first --
Expectations - I would say it would be best to not set high expectations --
I have a caution -- she may want you back to ease her feelings of loneliness, but she may still not want to committ to much in order to get you back -she may still have in the back of her mind having a lot of what she had before (like the independence thing!), once you are back.

If you tip your hand too early about your anxiousness to re-unite, this may tip the scales to her adavntage in minimizing her comittments to your list for example. And remember, She was asking what she gets in return. She has put you through heXX -- I say let her feel some tension --try not to give in to her demands so easily, & give up your want list to ease her tension. This I know is hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You know what you want & that is great -- As I see it, what you outlined is reasonable & very important -- I would move the no contact & warden thing up on the must list -- I feel everything is important, but that she may resist becasue to her it may seem like a lot. I want to re-inforce what Steve said -- try to listen & hopefully she will suggest the no-contact letter kind of thing -- If she does not, I am not sure what Steve would recommend -- Is he sugesting you have this prepared list?
I sense that it is going to take some time and do this right, it may ultimatley be to your best interest, not to rush this re-unting thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> -- One step at a time!! Maybe move back,(I know you have to be practical from costs point of view!) but make it clear it is tempory, or probationary kind of thing until you both agree on strategy -- seperate bed room thing?

Hang in there! You are doing well!! I am proud of you, man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Peace to all ...

[ August 14, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But; whatever it is, we'll take it! What's on your mind HCII? Plans? <hr /></blockquote>Geez, SC....I really don't know.....

Been at the acceptance phase of DV for a while now. This has really thrown a monkey-wrench in the whole ordeal.

WW still wants DV, but....has made it known that she doesn't want a TOTAL NC separation. Hints about "leaving the door open" for future possibilities.

Will probably go through with DV. Then, I guess, cross the next bridge when I get to it. This is amazingly bittersweet. I really DIDN'T need this. Has set MY recovery back a little.

I guess DV will close this chapter. Then....just take it as it comes.....

HCII

Space, my NEW vote for the name of the thread is Affairs that don't end...2 B or not 2 B.

Whaaaa haa haa haaa!!!!

Hcii...your wife is still showing signs of fence sitting. If she wants to be in your life she needs to show committment to the marriage and put the Dv on hold. If she's not willing to do that...then she needs to respect your NC wishes and move on. This is reality rearing its ugly head...she needs to feel it completely...not use you as a buffer to the pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
Spacecase,

Your list looks pretty reasonable. I like the fact that you'll use Steve for negotiations (and I think that one aspect---Steve---is non-negotiable). Again, the phraseology for this would be "hey Hon, we're not coming to a consensus here---why don't we put it aside for now and let Steve help us on resolving it". Steve is there to help you navigate through the emotional landmines that accompany this type of recovery.<hr /></blockquote>Very good phrase...I'll add it to the cheat-sheet!

Oh, definitely; Steve is non-negotiable! (I bet he'd love to hear how we're reffering to him here! Do you want one Steve or two Steves? And do you want fries with that? LOL!!)

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
You had a question concerning room to negotiate on independence. The carrot I would use (but I'm not you) is that you schedule your 15 hrs/week together (hard schedules on each other's calendars) to rebuild. But acknowledge that your wife may need some time out to do stuff as well (and schedule that in). I would suggest that the only limitations on that be within the reconcilliation guidelines (like no OM stuff), and you might want to discuss limiting contact with friends who you are uncomfortable with. In other words, acknowledge her need as legitimate, and express a desire to try to meet it WITHOUT damaging the marriage. <hr /></blockquote>I see. Perfect. In other words I can "give" her some of that independence she seeks as part of the negotiation. Perfect.

Thanks K!

Thanks, HH!

I want to clarify; I am not optimistic about this. In fact, I sincerely doubt Plan B will not come to pass.

That being said, however, I cannot refuse a peace offering at this (or any) stage.

I will go, listen, take notes, clarify if necessary, thank her for her candor and her willingness to talk/negotiate, express my hopes for our bright future together, and let her know I'll think about it.

Depending on what she is offering (and asking for in return!), I'll probably counter-offer, and so on. If she's being very, very reasonable (yeah, right!), and offering pretty much all I want, cool! We'll ponder it a day or two and decide. If she's not being so reasonable, we'll let her simmer a bit longer and counter-offer.

I am not particularly eager or desperate to go back home; the pain is still too fresh, and I'm certainly NOT going to give up what I've gotten for myself. I'm right where I want to be right now; looking at my options.

I also don't want to appear too eager. Besides, the pressure on her will mount in the coming days when the "kiddoes" go back to school, and even more a few days later when big kiddo goes back to Austin...so I'm in no rush. Besides, I get a better rate here if I stay a month...no tax!

[ August 14, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

HCII;
I agree with your posture and with H4F; after what she's put you through, she should not come back until she's willing to say "I'll do whatever it takes to rebuild our marriage" and mean it.

I know it must be a shock and a major re-alignment of the thought processes you had going, but it is another option that presents itself to you.

SC:

Gee willikers! I won't quote your whole original post, but just say that it sounds like it just might be possible that your W and my W got wires crossed and that was MY W that Steve was talking to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That privacy, independence "issue" crap is exactly the kind of stuff I'm dealing with.

Haven't talked about much of that lately at all. In fact, haven't talked any R stuff at all since I got back, and it's "working" for whatever that means. I'm getting signs that my W is starting to worry about the future of our M, like her comment yesterday morning that she was "a little afraid" and needed a hug.

hcii: Gee willikers to you2! Why is it that it seems like these things happen this way so often. Or is it just me? Similar to nasakid's sitch in many ways.

Oh well, back on my head!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM
<hr /></blockquote>Space,

IMHO:

I am worried that you are going to give her too much at once to deal with at once. You have been reading and learning about how to fix the marriage for a long time and are leaps and bounds above her in knowledge. Do not overwelm her with specifics and do not preach to her how to save the marriage. Let the counselor do this. It is not necessary at this point in time to go into very detailed specifics, besides it is nearly impossible to work on everything at once even if she is a multi-tasking women.

Be simple in your request and it will be received better. Your list is almost preachy. What you want is for her to commit to working on the marriage using MB recovery principals and for your WW to commit to NC.

Because of your WW's past and lying about NC, you need to have her write a NC letter and review it and make sure it gets in OM's hands. The NC letter should go on your MUST HAVE list.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I want to clarify; I am not optimistic about this. In fact, I sincerely doubt Plan B will not come to pass.

That being said, however, I cannot refuse a peace offering at this (or any) stage.

I will go, listen, take notes, clarify if necessary, thank her for her candor and her willingness to talk/negotiate, express my hopes for our bright future together, and let her know I'll think about it.

Depending on what she is offering (and asking for in return!), I'll probably counter-offer, and so on. If she's being very, very reasonable (yeah, right!), and offering pretty much all I want, cool! We'll ponder it a day or two and decide. If she's not being so reasonable, we'll let her simmer a bit longer and counter-offer.

I am not particularly eager or desperate to go back home; the pain is still too fresh, and I'm certainly NOT going to give up what I've gotten for myself. I'm right where I want to be right now; looking at my options.

I also don't want to appear too eager. Besides, the pressure on her will mount in the coming days when the "kiddoes" go back to school, and even more a few days later when big kiddo goes back to Austin...so I'm in no rush. Besides, I get a better rate here if I stay a month...no tax!
<hr /></blockquote>By the tone of your post here, I get the feeling that you do not want to go back now. That you want to go to Plan B whatever the costs. Is this even partially true?

IMHO: There should be no counteroffering or dealing here, this is not a car dealership, this is a marriage. I think you should bring in a list of two items which is NC/NC letter and commitment to work on the marriage through MC and MB principals. If she is not willing to do that, then Plan B. Simple, sweet, loving, and not complicated. Something she can remember and know for sure why Plan B occurred. If she agreed to some of the many specific items, and not to others, then she is left to ponder "why did he do Plan B?"

Just my opinion.

Too bad the full moon does not affect my neck of the woods.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dreamland:

I am worried that you are going to give her too much at once to deal with at once...Be simple in your request and it will be received better. Your list is almost preachy. <hr /></blockquote>DL; you've misinterpreted my intent. I am NOT going to give her or tell her this list. I am going to listen to what she offers, and compare it to my list. On my own. I'm only going to listen at this point.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Because of your WW's past and lying about NC, you need to have her write a NC letter and review it and make sure it gets in OM's hands. The NC letter should go on your MUST HAVE list.
<hr /></blockquote>Under "normal" circumstances, this would be correct. However, remember that he's in prison for the next 6-8 years, and his communication options are controlled. So as long as the comm is stopped, and I can verify it, I don't frankly care WHAT he thinks is happening. In fact, it MAY be better for my W just to disappear from him...

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
By the tone of your post here, I get the feeling that you do not want to go back now. That you want to go to Plan B whatever the costs. Is this even partially true?<hr /></blockquote>Not at all. I'm just not willing to go back for crumbs or for partial, teaser offerings. I'll go back for the whole enchilada, or what appears to be a credible committment to the whole enchilada, or I'm headed to Plan B, and if necessary, Plan D.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
IMHO: There should be no counteroffering or dealing here, this is not a car dealership, this is a marriage. <hr /></blockquote>Well, I don't really agree, DL. She will offer what she thinks I'll be willing to accept to come home, no more than that.

I can then come back and say, "Hon, you know, X that you offered is not really that important to me, what do you think of Y?" and so on so that I can get as close to what I want as possible.

Obviously if I hold out for a total committment to every item on the list immediately, it's not going to happen, but I do need a few minimum items, and a serious committment to some others. Not getting what I need to live in peace and start rebuilding trust is the saem as when a BS lets the WS back in without conditions or clarity...we'll end up in Plan B again and again.

Something happened and my post came in twice,

[ August 14, 2002, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Dear Space:

You really sound great. I admire your approach. Listen, comprehend then act.

When I grow up I want to be just like you.

All my best to you and your family.

Jack

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
Dear Space:

You really sound great. I admire your approach. Listen, comprehend then act.

When I grow up I want to be just like you.

All my best to you and your family.

Jack<hr /></blockquote>Glad I'm inspiring you, Jack, and that I sound that way...because behind the brave words, and the best-laid plans, is a scared, uncertain BS, just trying to make it through this! LOL!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:
Thanks, HH!

I will go, listen, take notes, clarify if necessary, thank her for her candor and her willingness to talk/negotiate, express my hopes for our bright future together, and let her know I'll think about it.

Depending on what she is offering (and asking for in return!), I'll probably counter-offer, and so on. If she's being very, very reasonable (yeah, right!), and offering pretty much all I want, cool! We'll ponder it a day or two and decide. If she's not being so reasonable, we'll let her simmer a bit longer and counter-offer.

I am not particularly eager or desperate to go back home; the pain is still too fresh, and I'm certainly NOT going to give up what I've gotten for myself. I'm right where I want to be right now; looking at my options.

I also don't want to appear too eager. Besides, the pressure on her will mount in the coming days when the "kiddoes" go back to school, and even more a few days later when big kiddo goes back to Austin...so I'm in no rush. Besides, I get a better rate here if I stay a month...no tax!<hr /></blockquote>Space
You are my hero! Sounds to me you have a great plan and the right frame of mind to carry it out!

Best of Luck!

Boy, I'm glad everyone has such confidence in me.
I wish I was half as confident!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Dear Space:

I don't know you sound pretty normal to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Glad I'm inspiring you, Jack, and that I sound that way...because behind the brave words, and the best-laid plans, is a scared, uncertain BS, just trying to make it through this! LOL!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Going out into the unknown is always scary. No risk no reward. You will benefit one way or the other. Think of the lesson you are teaching your children. I hope my daughter will want to go out of her way to have dinner with me, when she is your daughter's age.

As HH said you DA MAN.

Jack

Hi Space,

This is from the 13t, first post on this thread by you.
Then Steve goes on "She has very serious doubts as to your ability to re-build love and care in your M. She asks "What about me? What do I get?" and I told her that the success of that is ALSO dependent on her working as a team, and not as an individual. The same thing applies; what you've been doing does not work. You know that. That is confirmed now. You have to try something else, why not try the team approach, what I'm suggesting? I know this works, it's worked for a lot of other people. And she seems willing to do it, but you have to reinforce and be encouraging about your belief in the future."

Remember, ( I know you know all this, but we all need to hear it over and over,) she has issues with you that go back years also. Her feelings are real and can't be changed quickly. It will take years for both of you to make these changes permanent and normal.
I think Steve is wise to delay if she is coming towards a compromise. If you can play the middle for a while, and she knows you are trying, and you know she is, it will be better than plan B anyway.

Be respectful of her feelings, and try to see things from her side. She is probably committing the greater sin, but yours are still in her mind. Continue to help her get them out. You have a great gift in all that you have learned here, I believe you have used it wisely - keep it up.

Lastly, don't worry quite so much about every little thing. I'm with JL on this one. Spend time in other ways, get that job, get to know the kids better. Continue to help others here as you have been doing. I believe you will come out of this in really good shape. Since you often ask for reasons, I believe this because you seem to understand the concepts behind MB, and you seem to be willing to DO them. Remember that DR Harley didn't invent this stuff. He took a principal that is always true ( you can get better results with normal people by being nice to them than if you are mean to them) and breaks it down so people can learn it and use it. I think you being able to take these principals and make them real in your life as you are doing, means you will be OK.

I know sometimes you feel too close to this to see anything, but that is how we all feel about our own situation. I worry about you ( I worry about everyone that has this kind of pain) but you recover well, and you respond correctly in most cases, so keep on.
I say again, I believe you will be all right long term.

SS

Double post - me too, me too.

[ August 14, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

I know why things are starting to sound logical and so "organized"...this has become a Project!
Without even realizing it, that's what happened, and that's why I look so confident! LOL!!!
This is easy!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, first we have our resources:
Battered BS
MB Forum
Calloused Ego
Wellbutrin
Coke, Cold Pizza, Snickers, Cashews
Low Expectations
Plan B Letter
Third Rate Extended Stay

Then we have our timeline:
The next minute
An hour
A day
A week
A month
3 Months
Forever
For F-ing EVER

Then we have our Tasks:
Recovery
False Recovery
Wishful thinking Recovery
Semi-Plan B
Real Plan B
Plan D
Homicide
Suicide

Then we have our risks:
Reluctant WS
Extremely Reluctant WS
Suspiciously Cooperative WS
Crazy WS
Furious WS
OM Released from Prison

And of course, Risk Mitigation:
Steve Harley
Honorable Retreat
Dis-Honorable Retreat
Groveling
Crying
Begging
Pleading

Our Budget:
Very low

No problem! This is a breeze, I'll have the Project Plan ready by early tonight!
Complete with Gantt charts, flow charts, Visio workflows, and everything!
No wonder I sound so confident....now we're talkin' stuff I understand! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FunEEEEEEEEEEEE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

sheesh! Why dint ya lay it all out like this earlier? You coulda saved the company big $$ in overtime!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Bravo Space!

My favorite quality in you is you SENSE OF HUMOR!!
Better watch out...this could make that best posts list!

You could consider being a stand-up comedian. I don't know what the pay is but think of Leno!Think of what a big audience you would have with all the MBers in Houston! A sold out house every night! The rest of us could come in on private bus tours; sort of a package deal! Please keep it up!! CSue

Hey Spaceguy on the Southside,

This sounds encouraging!! I think it was the new cologne!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just go slow.... let her do the work here.

The Brat on the Northside
(who will someday post her story and seek input....)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
Dear Space:
...Going out into the unknown is always scary. No risk no reward. You will benefit one way or the other. Think of the lesson you are teaching your children. I hope my daughter will want to go out of her way to have dinner with me, when she is your daughter's age.

Jack<hr /></blockquote>I don't mean to belittle anyone's comments or support by replying with a bit of self-deprecating humor. I'm sorry if I have.

I am very proud of my children's solidarity and love, and most of all that they have been able to remain neutral and will not take sides. The saddest part of that is that to a great extent, that is my W's doing.

SS, I am SO sorry, here you are putting so much time and thought into helping me, and what am I doing? Composing funny stuff. Truly, I DO need and appreciate your feedback.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by still seeking:
Hi Space,

Remember, ( I know you know all this, but we all need to hear it over and over,) she has issues with you that go back years also. Her feelings are real and can't be changed quickly. It will take years for both of you to make these changes permanent and normal.
I think Steve is wise to delay if she is coming towards a compromise. If you can play the middle for a while, and she knows you are trying, and you know she is, it will be better than plan B anyway.

Be respectful of her feelings, and try to see things from her side. She is probably committing the greater sin, but yours are still in her mind. Continue to help her get them out. You have a great gift in all that you have learned here, I believe you have used it wisely - keep it up.

Lastly, don't worry quite so much about every little thing. I'm with JL on this one. Spend time in other ways, get that job, get to know the kids better. Continue to help others here as you have been doing. I believe you will come out of this in really good shape. Since you often ask for reasons, I believe this because you seem to understand the concepts behind MB, and you seem to be willing to DO them. Remember that DR Harley didn't invent this stuff. He took a principal that is always true ( you can get better results with normal people by being nice to them than if you are mean to them) and breaks it down so people can learn it and use it. I think you being able to take these principals and make them real in your life as you are doing, means you will be OK.

I know sometimes you feel too close to this to see anything, but that is how we all feel about our own situation. I worry about you ( I worry about everyone that has this kind of pain) but you recover well, and you respond correctly in most cases, so keep on.
I say again, I believe you will be all right long term.

SS <hr /></blockquote>Indeed, in light of her "offering" Steve is wise to give her the benefit of the doubt and try to meet her half-way. No question of that. It took both of us by surprise, and I think it turned out well. Thank G-d for that cancellation Steve had that let me get in that afternoon, otherwise I'd be here biting my nails and posting like a manica trying to figure out what to do!

You are right on with this, and I'll take your advice to heart. I know I have to temper my desire for MY gratification and be more generous with understanding and meeting my W's needs. I know this, and I'm working on it. Preparing for it.

I know that when she calls (if she calls) and I go, it will have to be a perfect encounter. She will bare some of her innermost secrets/feelings, and I MUST show respect for that. I'm preparing.

And I know I worry too much, it's my nature to think ahead and build scenarios and contingency planning...I was just "drawn" that way. And although it probably annoys many of you, it helps me to be more secure and sure-footed when things turn out better...it makes it look easy!

Thank you for your support and you votes of confidence. I mean that.

Pep, Faith and CSue, you know you're among my very favoritest gals dontcha? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Glad I provided a bit of entertainment value today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Faith, I like to blow budgets, not come in under budget! What fun is that!?!? You don't get to present to the big-dogs with catered lunch! I mean there's nothing they can do! They'll cut the check if they want the project to end someday! And I get catered lunch just for a little powerpoint I can whip up in 10 minutes and a short presentation?! Any day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Stand-up comedy, huh, CSue...I don't know..."I'm not like that, I'm really kinda' shy.." (Sung to the Boston tune...) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

All this has gotten me to thinking (Oh, NO!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) in my work, my professional life, I can get up in front of an auditorium with 5 minutes notice, and make whatever needs to happen happen. I can walk into a boardroom, run my PowerPoint, and get everyone on the same page and behind the project in 10 minutes, I can sit an IT guy and a Business guy, each with his own agenda, and have them shaking hands and working together in 20 minutes.

So why is it that I can't talk to my W? That for years and years we have not communicated? Can somebody help me with this?

SS, I am SO sorry, here you are putting so much time and thought into helping me, and what am I doing? Composing funny stuff. Truly, I DO need and appreciate your feedback.

I didn't feel bad, I was laughing just as hard as everyone else. As you know, we all need both sides to be happy. You have pretty good balance too, another reason I think you will be fine.

I do worry about some of the friends you have here on this site. Does your wife know? Perhaps that is one reason she is so upset with you sometimes. You should be more careful. Didn't your mother ever warn you?

Don't worry too much about hurting our feelings, we kind of like you -

SS

So why is it that I can't talk to my W? That for years and years we have not communicated? Can somebody help me with this?

I believe one reason is closeness. We live with this person and think we know them, and assume things. We assume we are on the same page and often we are not. In business we are more careful to put the feelers out and make sure there is understanding before we go on, in marriage we often don't.

I believe the other big one is fear. There is a post from JL about fear, it' not really the subject of the thread but I think he covered it well. You have to read the whole thing to get it, but you read pretty fast. Anyway, I think he explains it better than I could, so here it is.
Discussion on fear, training spouse

There are methods we can use to communicate better but often we don't use them in marriage. We want the short easy way that often turns out to be the long hard way. Much of this is covered in Steven Covey's "7 habits", it makes a good read, but then, you may be sick of reading this type of stuff by now.

So, cold pizza again? No wonder you don't understand simple stuff like communicating in marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
Hey Spaceguy on the Southside,

This sounds encouraging!! I think it was the new cologne!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just go slow.... let her do the work here.

The Brat on the Northside
(who will someday post her story and seek input....)<hr /></blockquote>Hey, BB!
Definitely! It was the cologne!
And yes, you need to post your story... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

ya know supposedly there's cologne out that has pheromones in thats supposed to attract the opposite sex, anyone ever use this stuff??

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I do worry about some of the friends you have here on this site. Does your wife know? Perhaps that is one reason she is so upset with you sometimes. You should be more careful. Didn't your mother ever warn you?

Don't worry too much about hurting our feelings, we kind of like you -

So, cold pizza again? No wonder you don't understand simple stuff like communicating in marriage. <hr /></blockquote>SS; You know, I worry about some of them too. But I figure as long as they're here, they'll stay out of trouble! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And it's funny you say that about my W; she DID get upset with me about MB! When I asked her who she was emailing about "us", she screamed that she also had the right to talk to someone, after all, I spent hours chatting about "us" with all my friends on MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL!!!

No, no cold pizza. Tonight was special: a warm, fresh Quizno's and Doritos! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> ya know supposedly there's cologne out that has pheromones in thats supposed to attract the opposite sex, anyone ever use this stuff??
<hr /></blockquote>I read (I think here) that it won't work on a WS.

Here be the linky to one company... (www.love-scent.com)

ST

I just got off the phone with my W, she's actually called me 3 times today, to ask computer questions.

But now, she told me "I had planned for us to have a talk, but now I think we both need a few more days, to think about things, and not have this hanging over us, and we'll talk then, OK?"

Since I'm not supposed to know we were going to talk, I said; "We were set up to talk?"

And she said; "No, but I told Steve that we would talk, but I need a few days, he's been pushing me too hard, and I need a few days. Is that OK?"

And I said "Sure, just let me know when you'd like to do it. By the way we have an appointment with Steve on bla, bla bla."

I believe she had a conversation with our friend psychologist tonight, and maybe they decided that it was not the right time for this, who knows? I'm just speculating about that.

So...what now? Hang loose, wait and see whan/if she decides to have the "talk", in the meantime still in Semi-B, some contact...call with Steve on Monday...life goes on...rats!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:
I just got off the phone with my W, she's actually called me 3 times today, to ask computer questions.!<hr /></blockquote>I love this...I really do! She had to put forth the effort to contact you when in the past you were really available to solve all of her computer needs. Just a small dose of reality!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But now, she told me "I had planned for us to have a talk, but now I think we both need a few more days, to think about things, and not have this hanging over us, and we'll talk then, OK?"

Since I'm not supposed to know we were going to talk, I said; "We were set up to talk?"

And she said; "No, but I told Steve that we would talk, but I need a few days, he's been pushing me too hard, and I need a few days. Is that OK?"!<hr /></blockquote>I love it when SH is the bad guy! Poor W...pushed too hard!! I hear that from H alot!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And I said "Sure, just let me know when you'd like to do it. By the way we have an appointment with Steve on bla, bla bla."

I believe she had a conversation with our friend psychologist tonight, and maybe they decided that it was not the right time for this, who knows? I'm just speculating about that.!<hr /></blockquote>So...what now? Hang loose, wait and see whan/if she decides to have the "talk", in the meantime still in Semi-B, some contact...call with Steve on Monday...life goes on...rats![/QB][/QUOTE]

Space you deserve the icon for "Joe Cool"...the guy with the dark glasses! CSue

Thanks CSue; you make it all sound like it's great, and I needed that. I'm actually pretty bummed. I hate this up and down thing, hate it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I get ready to "go dark", then that's out cause now she's wanting to talk, OK so we prepare for THAT, and now, that's on hold...what's next!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Joe Cool? I don't think so! That's Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Ms. Cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Geez! Do they ALL do this c--p?!

She just emails me and says "I'm sorry about all the tech support calls. I'm sorry, I don't want you to think that's all I call you for. But yesterday and today have been hard and you're the one who knows this stuff"

HELLO!!! Have you called me for anything else?! NO! So why not just leave it at that?! Just baiting me...she KNOWS that'll annoy me!

To avoid any potential nastiness, I just answered "No problem."

Space,
I think it's great that she called you 3 times today! My WS is doing the same thing. I do so want to have the big "relationship" talk with him, but I must be patient and wait on him.
Hopefully, I'm filling some of his love bank when he calls and stops by!
It sounds like your WW just can't quite let go of you! The plot thickens.
Wow, never a dull moment around here.
Take care. Enjoy the peace and quiet.
KK

SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAM!! sorry had to break the silence

HELLO!!! Have you called me for anything else?! NO! So why not just leave it at that?! Just baiting me...she KNOWS that'll annoy me!

ya know, just when one starts reeling the other one, the stupid line breaks!!

I don't know, KK. According to Steve NO PLAN A during the pre-go-dark Plan B phase...so it's almost uncomfortable to run into her, or talk to her, I can't really be nice because that would involve a lot of darlin' and ILY's and sweetie, etc. and if I don't, then it's all business, which is probably an LB...I don't know!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I'm just a guy, darnit' barely evolved from a caveman, and I'm supposed to know all this relationship/communications stuff! Gimme a break! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

The problem with enjoying the "peace and quiet", as you call it, is that I LIKE THIS!!! Catch all the ballgames, no fighting about having to change to Law & Order in the 9th inning, bases loaded, 2 outs and 2 strikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I can leave my clothes lyin' around a bit....eat more Snickers than I should...THIS IS REALLY COOL!!! Next thing you know, 2L's coming in with a keg!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> we'll have the whole hotel hoppin'!!! Yeeeee-Haw, baby! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

"HELLO!!! Have you called me for anything else?! NO! So why not just leave it at that?! Just baiting me...she KNOWS that'll annoy me!
To avoid any potential nastiness, I just answered "No problem.""

This was EXACTLY the RIGHT RESPONSE! You couldn't have said it better if you hadn't replied at all!

Remember, she KNOWS what she needs to do for you to come home.

2L; You know? This is REALLY BAD TIME for you to be having all that work, conference in Phoenix, interview trip and vacation. It just ain't right!

Here I am, all alone in a hotel room, and you're off doing all this "stuff"...just ain't right, my friend! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I AM kidding, although I do miss your posts and keeping the humor up all by m'self...its just a heavy burden to bear! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Besides, you're missing some classics! There was one about this new NASA project to launch a fog-killer satellite called "the spacecase"...I mean, this is important stuff, man!

[ August 14, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Woke up with this thought; I was supposed to have "gone dark" in Plan B by now, only I didn't because my W said to Steve that she was "going to talk to me" and Steve felt that she may have been ready for a major step.

So now she calls me and tells me she was going to talk to me, but she's not ready, and that Steve is pushing her too hard, that she needs a few more days.

So OK, I mean, no big deal. Wish she'd do it now, but a few more days? No problem.

But, she's also been coming at me with her computer problems, and she's got one that has been around for a while, but now it's gotten worse, and I suspect it'll take at least a day and 1/2 of work to fix.

Only, I don't really feel like doing it for her. After all, I left home to remove myself from the pain of her on-going A, but I also left to deprive her of those needs I'd been fulfilling, among them ALL the stuff I did for her.

So, while I wait for her "talk", and Steve's next session, and deciding if it's time to "go dark", should I do this for her or not? And if not, how do I tell her?

Would sending her something like this as a "heads-up" perhaps "incent" her to have that talk with me, or at least make her seriously think about it?
Would it somehow damage or affect the posture of a Plan B letter if that was sent a few days later? (If we decide that's the right thing to do). Could this maybe be the last bell before the Plan B letter and going dark?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I think you should start thinking about finding other ways to take care of the things I have taken care of for you in the past. I am moving on with my life, to my new life. My old life and our marriage ended the day you decided to start your latest affair. It has been my hope and my wish that you would join me in creating a new life and a new marriage for us for nearly one year, 12 months. But sadly, you have chosen not to. If you should choose to do that now, there is still a chance that we may be able to do it together. At some point, that chance may not be there again. I am truly, truly sorry, I have given just about all I can give in terms of time and understanding, and it has been too painful for me. I have to move on, hopefully with you, or sadly without you, to my new life. <hr /></blockquote>

[ August 15, 2002, 04:16 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Space,

IMHO:

I think I heard a fog horn. Bad signs space. SH is very convincing and I believe now that she might have been just telling SH what he wanted to here. Too much for her too fast. That is probably why she needed a break. Rome was not built in a day. I think your WW was in NO-SPACECASE-Shock, no more, no less. WW was telling you what you wanted to here too. She does not know what she wants now, and she is very confused. She does need this time to think and to feel what life is without spacecase. Do not fix her computer. Let her find someone else.

I have some recommendations:
1) Plan B letter today.
2) Take a day off from everything and do something you enjoy today. You need a break. I see through the post times that you live at this MB site. There is more to life then your WW and this site. Find it and repair yourself during this Plan B time. God knows I need to do the same.

Well, can you wait til Monday?

I think you could go either way here. If you feel you REALLY need to "go dark" now, I think it would be OK. If you're very near LB'ing, that's a sign. If you can control the LB'ing, and give her some time (til Monday and talk to Steve), 4 more days won't hurt.

THere's no turning back after PLan B, so you need to be sure. If you can relax a bit, bite your tongue, and wait til Monday, I think that's best.

But we'll support you if you can't wait.

I'd really hesitate to go to full Plan B before consulting w/Steve on Monday.

What if I send her and email, let her know I'll work on her pc, but that she should think about finding an alternate method, etc. The note I composed and posted...?

I could also just send that note and NOT work on her pc...?

Thoughts?

SC:

"There was one about this new NASA project to launch a fog-killer satellite called "the spacecase"...I mean, this is important stuff, man!"

Saw that one. Face it, SC, by the time you dealt with budget cuts and descope options, you'd be lucky if your spacecraft could MEASURE the optical opacity of the fog. It might be possible to "kill" the fog with the right kind of microwave radiation, but you'd sterilize the planet in the process. ...perhaps a small price to pay, though? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC,
I thought you'd get a kick out of that one!

What do you think? Send the note/don't?, fix her pc/don't?

SC, DL:

"Do not fix her computer. Let her find someone else."

Yeah. Like maybe ship it to FL for repairs. Maybe she could get a personalized license plate at the same time.

OK, I guess the pc's out...but do I send the note?

SC:

Tell you what you do. This is great, so write it down:

Hye yourself on over to your local Fried Electrons superstore and buy the components to BUILD a new PC. Set it up all nice and fancy and customized for your W, THEN email her with the news and SELL it to her. That way, you keep your mind occupied doing something you like to do and it's a "nice gesture" for your W as well.

When did she buy that PC that needs fixing, anyway? If it was more than a day and a half ago, it's obsolete now, anyway. You'd be doing her a favor.

Well, I might have to go back and refresh my memory on what you told her when you moved out. I didn't think it was "I'm moving on with my life." I thought it was more like "I need to be away from the pain of the A, and need some time to think."

I was thinking you should fix the PC, and don't send the note. We're not talking about war here. And you shouldn't be trying to educate or punish her. You're supposed to be "waiting". Real Plan B has its purpose, and is coming soon.

hmmmm... maybe a note (or telling her) something like this: (your note is a little bit like a "Plan B Letter")

I will fix your PC for you, but I really think you should start thinking about finding other ways to take care of the things I have taken care of for you in the past. While I am away from home, it is difficult for me continue doing all the things that I love doing for you.

??? whattaya think

I'm serious, man! This is eating at me!

She messed something up in the O/S badly. so I have to back up her data, reformat the hard drive, and load everything again, restore her data...pain in the!

SC,

My vote, not that note, it sounded plan B ish.

If you work on it, take it to your place, work on it with out the possiblity of contact with her, take it back when she's not home. Maybe one of the kids can bring it over....

Weaning off is an effort in Tact and diplomacy. I saw you post on going-crazy about availablity....well.....

Good luck, hope the best...

DRS

PS that fog satillite was originally put up in 1972, but was built by the lowest bidder, so it didn't work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC:

You're not in plan B. Do you like working on PCs? I know I like working on them, even when it's fixing something that Bill Gates or Steve Jobs SHOULDN'T have screwed up to begin with.

Go ahead and fix her PC. If you can get one of the kids to bring it over to YOU and work on it in the hotel, then do that.

But you want to fix it for her, I can tell. You're a good man, SC.

DR:

"PS that fog satillite was originally put up in 1972, but was built by the lowest bidder, so it didn't work "

Remember "Faster, Better, Cheaper"? Pick one, and the first two don't count. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Faith1:
Well, I might have to go back and refresh my memory on what you told her when you moved out. I didn't think it was "I'm moving on with my life." I thought it was more like "I need to be away from the pain of the A, and need some time to think." <hr /></blockquote>Correct.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I was thinking you should fix the PC, and don't send the note. We're not talking about war here. And you shouldn't be trying to educate or punish her. You're supposed to be "waiting". Real Plan B has its purpose, and is coming soon.

hmmmm... maybe a note (or telling her) something like this: (your note is a little bit like a "Plan B Letter")

I will fix your PC for you, but I really think you should start thinking about finding other ways to take care of the things I have taken care of for you in the past. While I am away from home, it is difficult for me continue doing all the things that I love doing for you.

??? whattaya think <hr /></blockquote>I like the note and the idea. I don't dump her with her problem, and I don't really change what I said before about leaving, but I do let her know this "thinking about it" is not going to last forever.

SPACE!!!!

Plan B right away. This is killing you man.

Do not fix her computer. Let her try to take care of herself. This is a perfect oportunity to see the qualities and talents in you that she will miss.

So no contact starting today. Add to the Plan B letter that she could put down on paper what she intended to talk to you about. What more is to be said and accomplished by the discussion. Her wanting to give it some time first is good enough of a clue that she has little interest in actually fixing the mess SHE created. Let her go space, do something fun today and get off the MB site for a while, you need a break.

DL;
This has been killing me for nearly 12 months. I can't make rash decisions now, Steve asked me to give her a few days, he feels she's close. She confirmed that yesterday.

I'm not going to risk blowing it for a few days. I've survived this time, I can last another 5 days.

I think I'm going with Faith's solution. I'll send her an email with the note, and ask her when would be a good time for it, that I probably need a full day or more.

Going to take care of some stuff, think about it some more, maybe get more feedback, and probably go with that.

That's a good plan, SC.

You're the boss here. Do what YOU think is right. We're with you, man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mr. Pepper went to an AA meeting recently and came home with this *pearl*. (I usually ask him after his meetings if there're any pearls he's picked up)

"Happiness does not depend on your circumstances, but on your inner peace."

Months ago, I suggested to 2Long and to Spacey that this process is a spiritual journey , and has a deeper purpose, greater than restoring your marriages ... you scoffed at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I suggested that affairs indicate a spiritual anorexia .... I still hold that idea to be true ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spacey .... relax. Turn on your inner light. When you speak of "going dark" ... you are speaking of shining your light upon yourself, and NOT upon your spouse. You are actually "going light" for yourself. And your spouse will have to spark her own spiritual light herself. You cannot pour lighter fluid on someone else's spirit and have it do any good.

You both are favorites of mine 2Long and Spacecadet .... because I can see your inner light. And, it makes me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ August 15, 2002, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

SC,

Why is it when the horse gets near the barn and can see it, that the horse breaks into a run??

Why are you running now after all of this time? I think you need to NOT send her the email. Wait for her to ask you to fix the PC.
Go fix the PC and then tell her from now on, she needs to find someone else to fix it. This is getting too hard for you to deal with. AND IT IS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now, the upside of you taking a day to fix it, is that she will be around you. The opportunities for a talk may arise, and you get to see the kids a bit more. All of this before Mon when you talk to SH and probably go into a REAL Plan B.

You might consider if it is easier to work on the PC at your place or at home. Your place offers fewer distractions and probably W won't hang around. Home brings you back into the environment that you left, but with a slightly different twist. You can get up and leave anytime you wish. You don't have to put up with a thing from her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Think about this SC. Is this a problem or an opportunity? You decide.

God Bless,

JL

2Long said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You're the boss here. Do what YOU think is right. We're with you, man. <hr /></blockquote>I'll throw MHO in here.....

I think that BOTH criteria has to be met before one can do a GOOD Plan B.

1) The timing of the situation, and
2) The mentality of the one going to Plan B.

I think, like some others, that the timing, and the situation at hand, is prime for Plan B.

BUT.......

Space may be mentally ready for Plan B, but has doubts about it. Therefore, I do not think the "whole" sitch is at the correct timing for it.

For instance,(this is NOT criticism) 2Long's sitch a while back reflected the very thing. At that instant in 2Long's sitch, the dynamics of the R was primed for it, but 2Long wasn't. You have to go into Plan B with no reserve. At least that was apparent in my case. It's tough. I will not "candy-coat" it. But, it does get better with time. I was ready. My WW filing for Dv and still seeing OM, set the stage for it. Even though she is staying next door, for 2 months I initiated NO contact. Didn't answer ANY phone calls. Tried NOT to be available. Wasn't easy. Takes a lot of resolve.

Spacecase may be mentally there (I think he is), but the reserve and doubts are not to be taken lightly.

You can't do the job without the proper tools. Space is still missing one "small" tool. The ability to go "dark" with NO doubts.

Another opinion here....From what I gather by reading, and my sitch, you don't get very good odds for a "second" Plan B. You better make the first one count.

My 2cents.

HCII

IMHO....

I thought that the only reason that SH wanted to postpone the Plan B letter was due to the fact that she made all the right noises about wanting to "talk". Now that she has put that "talk" on hold, I would think that you would revert back to the original plan. Postponing it was contingent on that talk and that isn't happening. It might just be another way of her postponing the inevitable if she is familiar with the MB concepts.

Dear Space:

Good discission here. I am sorry it is us discussing and you living it.

I think you should wait for plan B until you talk to SH. Until then, keep it as you would under the current "agreement" still talking to W and interacting. It has always been your nature to help W with these problems, don't stop now just prior to Plan B.

I agree with Faith.

All my best

Jack

In my most humble opinion and as frank as possible:

It is amazing how the coin has flipped. I told you to wait and not go to Plan B right away because of the positive actions you were seeing from WW. You argued then that you were to stick to your plan to plan B. When you talked to SH after he talked to WW, he confirmed that she was moving in a positive direction, and then you changed your mind about Plan B timing.

Now, I see negative WW actions and I see a very dangerously low love bank (I could be wrong about your love bank), and I am encouraging you to go to Plan B to protect yourself, and you argue that you are going to wait. I am worried that even if you get to the next step with WW you are not going to have anything left for recovery. You need a Plan B for strength for recovery of yourself. You are not well (like myself) meaning your life is not balance. Your motivation is to win the trophy. What other focus do you have in life. My fear (like what happened with me) is that once you finally finish your quest to get the trophy, you will not want the trophy. Funny how things are.

Have you done a good Plan A, I mean made drastic improvements in yourself. I am not talking relationship skills here, it sounds like you are fully honed in R skills. I am talking you as a person as a full balanced package. My opinion is you have put all other improvements of yourself on hold and you are seriously unbalanced.

You know what has been put on hold and it is not healthy. What happens when your quest is complete? Next quest recovery? Recovery will take years and be just as painful. Are you ready for that? Is your life ready for that?

Sorry for being blunt. I am extremely worried about you.

I'm worried about SC, too, but for somewhat different reasons.

The comments above, particularly from hcii, regarding my attempted plan B, are right on the mark. Though SC has the benefit of SH Cing here, which I didn't at the time, he's still doing many of the same things I did that week I tried to plan B. And that is, posting his sorry @$$ off, getting good, but very conflicting, advice from his buddies on this forum, and probably fretting too much like I did. This is a recipe for disaster, as I can vouch!!

This is about YOU, SC. Consider the advice given here and from SH, but MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. It'll hurt less, believe me.

I think you're doing great, but you should probably focus on some non-R activity, like underwater basket weaving, or whatever you find most interesting, and get your mind of your problems. They won't diminish until you can do that, and you can't truly "let go" of what your W is doing or thinking or how she's reacting to what you say or do for her until you can do that.

You've got a great trio of kids there, too. Do more stuff with them.

Most important, though. Take care of yourself! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interesting crossroads here. I think everyone is probably partially right, and that perhaps it is the combination of many of these elements that places me in an awkward position and situation.
I’ll try to make sense of some of this and see what conclusions I can reach.

Pep correctly states: “Turn on your inner light. When you speak of "going dark" ... you are speaking of shining your light upon yourself, and NOT upon your spouse. You are actually "going light" for yourself. And your spouse will have to spark her own spiritual light herself. You cannot pour lighter fluid on someone else's spirit and have it do any good.”

I know this to be true, and intellectually I have accepted it. However, emotionally, it is a bit harder. I hold out the hope, the wish, that some of my actions or inactions will somehow “help” “spark” my W’s inner light. So, in this sense, I am not totally “with” the program. But then, is anyone ever really?

Now JL states: “Why is it when the horse gets near the barn and can see it, that the horse breaks into a run??” and this is entirely a correct analogy. I think, I feel that what happened here is this: I was ready for Plan B, mentally prepared, emotionally prepared, and love-bank-wise, at the right place. Steve agreed with this. Now clearly, I will not say that I was totally, 100% with the total program here either…I don’t even know what that is. How do we judge this? Who can truly say you are ready, or you are not ready?

Then, Steve changes things for me and asks me to do a semi-Plan B for a week. Remain in contact, be civil but no more, give her a chance to adjust to your being away before you deliver the letter and go “dark”. So that was a bit hard to adjust to, I was prepared for something else, and I did not know how to really deal with this. But I did, and I’d say that overall, I did OK. Not perfect, but pretty good.

So I’d made that adjustment OK, and was getting through it, again ready to go to the mindset I had prepared for, real Plan B. That is why, at the time, I so insisted on sticking to the original Plan B timetable we’d set. I thought it was time, Steve thought it was time, and that was the plan.

Then, another fork in the road. My W says to Steve that she misses me, that she wants to talk, and Steve feels that she’s sincere, and perhaps “ready” for a breakthrough. So he asks me, again, to put the Plan B mindset and preparation on hold, and give her a chance to do what she wants to do, and see where we are; perhaps avoiding Plan B altogether, who knows? So my desire to perhaps finally have a breakthrough takes over, and I again, agree. Plan B on hold, wait for the talk, see where that goes, we’ll talk next week. OK, again cast into the “uncomfortable” situation of being out of my home, but with some contact, civil, but not loving or close.

Then, one day later, my W calls, says she was going to talk to me, but that she needs more time, and that she has computer problems she’d like me to take care of. So I’m again cast into that limbo of unknown. On the one hand, I don’t want to give up hope of “her talk” still happening, so I’m reluctant to rush into full Plan B, lest she interpret it as “punishment” for NOT having the talk, and on the other hand, this does sound like she’s backing down from her previous state of apparent “readiness” for a breakthrough, which would, presumably, mean we should go to full Plan B as the reason for the delay has disappeared.

So, what to do? My Plan B mindset has been disrupted, my hopes have been raised again, making me have doubts about what to do, and everything seems to be spinning out of control.

So several options are aired; from my “Plan B-ish note” to Faith’s soft-note, to DL’s “go to plan b now”, to JL’s “help her and tell her no more” all logical options in their own way. To top it off, I left a message for Steve and hope he gets back to me, although that’s unlikely. So….major quandary and re-evaluation of the whole situation.
There are questions as to whether I am “ready” for Plan B, and those are correct, maybe in some ways I’m not. There are questions as to whether I have done all the things I should have done for myself and my “spirit” while in Plan A, and I certainly haven’t done all of them. There are questions about strategy, about readiness, about timing, about everything. HCII makes a valid point about the “doubts”. Are they really because of the delay?, are they really real? Are they the product of the uncertainty I feel? Who knows?

But you know what? Regardless of the answers to all of those questions, here I am. At the doorstep of plan b, perhaps not fully prepared, perhaps prepared enough, perhaps not prepared enough. Heck, perhaps I should go home, perhaps I should just divorce, perhaps I should shoot myself!

But what is MY reality? My reality is that I do not have a “life” outside of my wife and kids, and house, and family. Hell, I don’t even have a job. So what do I do? I can’t stay home and let my W continue her affair in my face indefinitely, I can’t totally move on in Plan B because I am not truly prepared, I still hold out the hope that my W will “wake up” and at least give me enough so that we can try to fix the almost un-fixable.

So, I made the decision to go to Plan B because I could not stay there any more, and when other things happen I’m more than willing to stop Plan B because my hope is for a resolution, but if there isn’t, then Plan B is my best course of action because it will force me to “get a life” and move on.

So that’s it. There. I said it. That is MY situation. Will it work? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not. Will I survive? Maybe, maybe not. Will my M ever recover? Maybe, maybe not. Will it matter? Maybe, maybe not.

But do I have ANY other option? No. And like in so many other situations in life, when we DON’T have another option, we go with what we have and we hope for the best. Sometimes we come out OK, sometimes not. But that’s life, isn’t it?

So. I’m inclined for JL’s “solution” of going, fixing her pc, and giving her a little “heads up” that I will not be available for this stuff for long. Then wait for either a call from Steve and a decision there, or for Monday’s call with Steve where we’ll see what my W is up to, and THEN decide if we wait some more in semi-B or go to full B.

My reason for Plan B immediately is your own admission:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But what is MY reality? My reality is that I do not have a “life” outside of my wife and kids, and house, and family. Hell, I don’t even have a job. <hr /></blockquote>You have had 11 months to work on you and get a "life" and you have not. What you are doing now IS NOT WORKING!!!! Time to try something else.

Sure a few more days will not harm you, or will it? How much lower do you need to go before you get the release of letting go. No matter how hard you try, you can not "FIX" your WW, so let go, and move on. That is what you told me and what I tell you today. Plan B is moving on, you need it for YOU.

JL says:
“Why is it when the horse gets near the barn and can see it, that the horse breaks into a run??” The horse runs because every time it gets near the barn it gets hit in the head with a stick. Got it???? Let the barn come to you now.

Pepper:

""Happiness does not depend on your circumstances, but on your inner peace."
Months ago, I suggested to 2Long and to Spacey that this process is a spiritual journey , and has a deeper purpose, greater than restoring your marriages ..."

I'm really seeing this now. "I send out gratefulness in four directions" (- Hanta Yo, by Ruth Beebe Hill.)

"you scoffed at me"

We scoffed? We be sorry, Pep!

"I suggested that affairs indicate a spiritual anorexia .... I still hold that idea to be true ....."

That is true!

"You cannot pour lighter fluid on someone else's spirit and have it do any good."

Although, at night, the display would be inspiring! (sorry about that, it's a guy thing!)

"You both are favorites of mine 2Long and Spacecadet .... because I can see your inner light. And, it makes me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> "

Thanks from the 2long camp. I expect SC feels the way I do about all your help the past several months! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

SC:

"So, what to do? My Plan B mindset has been disrupted, my hopes have been raised again, making me have doubts about what to do, and everything seems to be spinning out of control."

I still think that the spinning out of control is due ENTIRELY to your dwelling on this too much (JUST LIKE I DID THAT WEEK, REMEMBER???). It'll make you nothing but crazy. Remember what a blithering twit I turned myself into on that Friday afternoon?

In spite of the "damage" I did to my "plan B" by coming home, I think I learned a helluva lot and so did my W. I have no idea just how much or even just WHAT she learned, but she's behaving differently toward me since that day.

Look. Fix the PC or don't fix the PC. Do what you want (although I'd suggest getting her a nice, colorful Mac instead - they only crash when you install Microsoft products on them! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - 2long ducks the barage of surplus PS2 mice and keyboards on ballistic trajectories toward his office from around the globe).

If it were me, I'd fix the thing, but keep contact with your W to a minimum and cordial. Talk to SH on Monday, and go from there. Go see a movie this afternoon with your kids. Eat a snocone or a wey shake or something.

I guess I should just chill out, catch the game and a pizza with my son tonight, and see what happens.

If she calls me again about the PC, I'll fix it for her and tell her she should start thinking about finding another way to take care of those things.

If Steve calls, or some other breakthrough feedback is received, I'll consider it, and barring that, I'll chill until Monday's call w/Steve, and we'll go from there.

I'm really in no hurry here, don't know why it felt like I was...weird. Thanks everyone!

DL;
Tell me something; what difference does it make for ME to be away from home with the possibility of hearing from or seeing my W for a few minutes here and there, and being in full Plan B?

And secondly, my W already thinks everything bad that happens or has happened to her is my fault, including her A, or that I've done it to hurt her. Now why would I go to Plan B on a sour note by refusing to fix her pc, and give her yet another (this time maybe valid) reason to say things like that?

I respect your position, and it makes sense, but remember, this is about me not about her. It seems to me that rushing into full Plan B now only has a real effect on her. It really does nothing significant for me. And it gives my W more ammunition to harden her posture.

Now that the Wellbutrin has kicked in, or whatever it was that de-escalated the situation, I can answer dearest Pep like she deserves.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
Mr. Pepper went to an AA meeting recently and came home with this *pearl*.

"Happiness does not depend on your circumstances, but on your inner peace."

Months ago, I suggested to 2Long and to Spacey that this process is a spiritual journey , and has a deeper purpose, greater than restoring your marriages ... you scoffed at me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I suggested that affairs indicate a spiritual anorexia .... I still hold that idea to be true ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Pep; I have to very humbly and apologetically say that you were and are right, and that I hope that if this situation of mine somehow reaches a place where my heart rate dips below strenuous exercise, I will TRULY INTERNALIZE and LIVE, BREATHE this wisdom.

Maybe I should take my Dad up on that meditation of his...can you meditate even if you smoke?

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Spacey .... relax. Turn on your inner light. When you speak of "going dark" ... you are speaking of shining your light upon yourself, and NOT upon your spouse. You are actually "going light" for yourself. And your spouse will have to spark her own spiritual light herself. You cannot pour lighter fluid on someone else's spirit and have it do any good.<hr /></blockquote>Absolutely true, and just as absolutely, almost impossible to maintain ALL the time. I know this; I got there today (through no conscious effort on my part, I assure you!) and it's OK; it will be OK. I will be OK. I will survive and thrive.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
You both are favorites of mine 2Long and Spacecadet .... because I can see your inner light. And, it makes me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Pep, I thank you from the deepest part of my heart, that you are able to "see" through all these outer layers of "garbage" that I have accumulated over the years and still find that "inner light" that I foolishly lost sight of. I hope someday soon, I too will be able to perceive and fan that little flame again.

And I also thank you profoundly and sincerely, for in all your posts and words you have reminded me that the more I learn, the more I learn that I have much more to learn. It keeps me humble. I thank you.

You may not think it now, but a Plan B is not only an physical action, but a spiritual action. If you read posts about BS's going to Plan B you will see the change in their opinion about life. You are releasing yourself from the tremendous burden of a Plan A. You are moving on with your life with a hope that your WW will come to her senses.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Tell me something; what difference does it make for ME to be away from home with the possibility of hearing from or seeing my W for a few minutes here and there, and being in full Plan B?
<hr /></blockquote>This is MB philosophy. I do not need to define the difference between Plan A and Plan B. Do I?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And secondly, my W already thinks everything bad that happens or has happened to her is my fault, including her A, or that I've done it to hurt her. Now why would I go to Plan B on a sour note by refusing to fix her pc, and give her yet another (this time maybe valid) reason to say things like that?
<hr /></blockquote>She already has a sour taste in her mouth. If you think fixing her computer is going to take the sour taste out of her mouth, go ahead and do it. How long have you been doing Plan A (and a good job at it too)? 11 months right? So how much of an affect will the computer fix have?

Sooner or later she is going to have to live on her own to know what she is missing. So if her computer broke down and you were already in Plan B, you would go over and fix it. Would she not get a sour taste in her mouth then if you did not.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I respect your position, and it makes sense, but remember, this is about me not about her. <hr /></blockquote>Respectfully, I disagree. It is all about her and all about you. Plan B does have dual purposes. One great asset you had to give her was your ability to fix stuff. You would jump start your Plan B with her seeing what she is missing.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It seems to me that rushing into full Plan B now only has a real effect on her. <hr /></blockquote>Like I said earlier, Plan B is also spirtual. You get it or you don't. I hope you get it, or you are in a world of hurt. Let her go space. You have to lose her to save her.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It really does nothing significant for me. And it gives my W more ammunition to harden her posture.
<hr /></blockquote>Your WW needs no more ammunition. She is stocked. Her posture has been hardened and 11 months of pain and great Plan A did nothing to change it. IMHO: The problem in your M has nothing to do now about the A now, but all to do about her perception about you. Her perception has been clouded by the A and by years of typical marital conflicts. One tiny insignificant computer repair will not change anything, but will decrease the impact to her of your Plan B.

All in all, do what you feel is right, but do not think that fixing her computer will have any positive affect for you. It is just one more act of kindness in the 11 months of kindness.

DL:

Wuhl, yeah. But so what?

SC ain't in plan B. He's in remote plan A. I wasn't in plan B, I was in not-so-remote plan A. Until he's really in plan B, he's just gotten himself out to think a bit.

Where's J.R.? He took like forever to get into plan B, right?

BTW: About your WW (IMHO):

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[ August 15, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]

DL:

reminds me of one I heard. "You can lead a horse to water, but a plumb bob must be lead."

He knows that he can't educate his W. He's just struggling with just how low his $LB was when he blew the scene last week. Thank goodness he's got SH's help in this difficult time.

2Long,

Good points. I just always opt for the one with the least amount of pain for the BS and the quickest recovery (individually that is). The more the Plan B stings the WS the quicker the chance for recovery (IMHO).

Why opt to put SC through any more pain if it is uneccessary.

Now, now, let's stop the bickering, boys.

While everyone's opinions are always welcome, and always considered, in the end it is the one involved who must make the final call. Even when the opinion comes from Steve.

That being said, I believe I have made a huge effort up to now, and made many sacrifices, some good decisions and some bad ones, but as I prepare to implement a full Plan B (as it looks pretty inevitable right now), I choose to not rush into it, and I choose to not end my Plan A/Semi-B on a sour note, and I choose to fix my W's pc if she asks me again.

I have my reasons, which I have tried to explain but perhaps did not do a very good job at, so we'll leave it at that.

I believe that the high road is always the best, even if we live in a world that appears to have left those with morals and ideals behind, and appears to favor those who are more opportunistic or savvy or agressive or immoral. Regardless, I still have a fundamental belief in the goodness of mankind, and the belief that being able to hold my head high is more important than having money in my pocket; not the least of which is the example my children will see.

So, I will fix her pc if she so asks me, because I think she will remember that more and with more longing, than if I were to "punish" her as I finally close the door behind me. At least this way, as she interprets my Plan B letter as punishment, she will also have the slight doubt about reaching that conclusion when she thinks of the last few things I did for her, willingly, and with love. Among them, her working pc.

[ August 15, 2002, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

You go, SC!

Don't worry too much about us bickerers in the peanut gallery! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:

I choose to not rush into it, and I choose to not end my Plan A/Semi-B on a sour note, and I choose to fix my W's pc if she asks me again.

I believe that the high road is always the best, even if we live in a world that appears to have left those with morals and ideals behind, and appears to favor those who are more opportunistic or savvy or agressive or immoral. Regardless, I still have a fundamental belief in the goodness of mankind, and the belief that being able to hold my head high is more important than having money in my pocket; not the least of which is the example my children will see.

So, I will fix her pc if she so asks me, because I think she will remember that more and with more longing, than if I were to "punish" her as I finally close the door behind me. At least this way, as she interprets my Plan B letter as punishment, she will also have the slight doubt about reaching that conclusion when she thinks of the last few things I did for her, willingly, and with love. Among them, her working pc.<hr /></blockquote>Space, I agree with your position on this. I like what JL had to say about taking the opportunity to make deposits in LB while you're home fixing the computer! Great opportunity.

Also since you have an appt with SH on Monday, you should definitely wait until speaking with him before Plan B. There is absolutely no need to rush it before then IMHO!! CSue

Thanks for your support CSue.

I never imagined I would be faced with such seemingly impossible challenges, nor did I ever imagine one could have some of the feelings I have had lately.

Nobody should be subjected to this, ever!

Space, as you know "feelings just are"!
It's the behavior choices we make as a result of those feelings that impact those we care about the most.

The choices you have been making have been so wise. What a role model you are for your children. What an example of a loving husband you have been to your W.

No matter what the outcome, you are a better person as a result of what you've learned...and such an inspiration to all of us!! CSue

Spacecase,

I don't think that I will add any more (lol...at least not many more) opinions at this point...most of what I feel/think has already been stated much more eloquently by other folks. I just wanted to take a few minutes to let you know how much I admire you as a person...

I am the WW....sometimes..just reading your posts makes my heart ache terribly...not just for your situation..but also for all BS's..and yes, all WS's, too.

I am glad you decided to go ahead and work on her PC again. I am guilty of getting wrapped up in the "why in the world should I do one more thing for someone who has/is treating me this way.." thinking process and I have to remind myself that the reason I go ahead an go the extra mile again and again is that as a Christian I am called to do so...even when I wasn't a Christian..I used to do this. This isn't about setting boundaries...(I think setting boundaries is fine when it is done appropriately..and yes, with some warning as to what and why)...it's about what my heart calls me to do.

Hehe..I see I lied to you about not offering any more opinions...sigh...I'm sorry, I tend to be a 'fixer'..I guess that is why I work with computers.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, just wanted you to know what an incredible person I think you are! I pray you are able to find some peace amidst the storm.

Best Regards,

YellowRose

Geez...out working for a day and look what happens, LOL!

Space, you really got it together well! I think your thinking is right on and you'll know when you haven't got any more to give. Your appt with Steve is Monday...which can seem like an eternity...but yet isnt' really. I hope he's able to help you come up with a consistant plan...I know this waffling is probably worse than an ineffective Plan A.

If you need any help with the PC, that's what I do for a living (and it sounds like YR does too!!) 2longs idea of the new one was hilarious!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spacecase,
I think it's very inspiring that you are continuing to return bad with good.
BTW, I don't know if this is too out there or granola for you, but the kind of attitude Pepperband was talking about, focussing on yourself and worrying less about others, reminded me of the I Ching (Chinese book of changes.) I've been using it a lot the last few months. (There are lots of versions in the big bookstores.) Just in case you need an extra something till Monday.

2Long: Where's J.R.? He took like forever to get into plan B, right?

JR: Well it felt like forever, but it was "only" 9 months. That's less than SC, and half of Lor's 18 month Plan A!!

I had actually seriously considered Plan B at the 6 month mark - exactly "by the book" (SAA). But instead I did my OM confrontation at that time. After that I got curious, and that gave me a bit more energy... And the confrontation was such a huge LB, I wanted to really do a stellar ending to my Plan A - applying everything I could.

In hindsight, I wish I'd done 3 months of Plan A, starting d-day, confronted OM, then another 3 months of Plan A... then Plan B. But hindsight is 20-20. (In real hindsight, I wish we'd communicated better, not ignored our S's EN's, etc. - avoid the whole thing.)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by CSue:
Space, as you know "feelings just are"!
It's the behavior choices we make as a result of those feelings that impact those we care about the most.

The choices you have been making have been so wise. What a role model you are for your children. What an example of a loving husband you have been to your W.<hr /></blockquote>Well, I've been learning. At first, many of the choices were very emotional, sometimes vindictive. Then, I started being able to make the right choices, but still fighting the feelings that I should get back at her, and now, I am really able to make those choices consciously and feeling good about them.

I do agree that my children have learned an incredible life lesson with this; from the things that can go wrong with the best of intentions, to seeing their father defend their mother even though he's been the most directly hurt by her actions. But I really felt that way, very early on I realized that I'd been at fault for many things, and that she was making decisions from a state of confusion that only got worse as time went on. I felt that she was not herself, not in control and making rational decisions, so it was only fair to not just blame her.

On the third part, the loving husband, I'm afraid I failed there. If I had been, this would never have happened. It is a failure I will have to learn to live with...I wonder if I ever will.
I can't help but feel that by the time I started being a loving husband again, it was too little, too late. Time will tell. Perhaps it was enough...

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />No matter what the outcome, you are a better person as a result of what you've learned...and such an inspiration to all of us!! CSue <hr /></blockquote>This part is true. I only hope I get the opportunity to share this "new" SC with my dear W...as for being an inspiration, I thank you for the thought, but don't really feel worthy of it; I've made too many mistakes...some of which we may never recover from.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by YellowRose:
Spacecase,

I am the WW....sometimes..just reading your posts makes my heart ache terribly...not just for your situation..but also for all BS's..and yes, all WS's, too.

...Well, just wanted you to know what an incredible person I think you are! I pray you are able to find some peace amidst the storm.

Best Regards,

YellowRose<hr /></blockquote>YR; I don't know you but I look forward to getting to know you better here on MB. I'm glad my experiences have somehow touched your heart, and I hope they help you and your H in some small way. (Just don't follow too closely; much of it has been trial and error, more error than trial! LOL!!!)

I thank you for your prayers, and offer mine as well.

[ August 15, 2002, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hope4future:
Space, you really got it together well! I think your thinking is right on and you'll know when you haven't got any more to give. Your appt with Steve is Monday...which can seem like an eternity...but yet isnt' really. I hope he's able to help you come up with a consistant plan...I know this waffling is probably worse than an ineffective Plan A.

If you need any help with the PC, that's what I do for a living (and it sounds like YR does too!!) 2longs idea of the new one was hilarious!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thankfully, something happened and I was able to reel it in and get it together again. Can't tell you what.
I have plenty more to give, and it'll be there for when the time is right. For now, I just need to get myself into a more stable situation, and settle down for the long haul. Steve will help me on Monday, and we'll be back on course.

Thanks for the offer of help with the pc, but I'm an old hand at that, been building and taking them apart since 1984-85, when DOS was king! LOL!!! (Geez! I haven't seen a C> prompt in a while!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Yes, 2L was very quick and creative on his feet with the assembly-line idea, but he's just a Mac guy, what does he know?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by determination:
Spacecase,
I think it's very inspiring that you are continuing to return bad with good.
BTW, I don't know if this is too out there or granola for you, but the kind of attitude Pepperband was talking about, focussing on yourself and worrying less about others, reminded me of the I Ching (Chinese book of changes.) I've been using it a lot the last few months. (There are lots of versions in the big bookstores.) Just in case you need an extra something till Monday.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the thought, D. I will check it out...I need all the help I can get! LOL!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by J.R.:
JR: Well it felt like forever, but it was "only" 9 months. That's less than SC, and half of Lor's 18 month Plan A!!<hr /></blockquote>To be fair and accurate, my Plan A only started aseveral months after DDay (Aug/01), when I discovered Divorce-Busting, probably Jan-Feb/02, which then changed to MB Plan A in March, so technically, about 6 to 6 1/2 months of actual Plan A.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
In hindsight, I wish I'd done 3 months of Plan A, starting d-day, confronted OM, then another 3 months of Plan A... then Plan B. But hindsight is 20-20. (In real hindsight, I wish we'd communicated better, not ignored our S's EN's, etc. - avoid the whole thing.) <hr /></blockquote>Well, I don't have any hindsight yet, but I strongly suspect I will feel like I should have gone to Plan B sooner...but we'll see...stay tuned!!

Spacecase and all other night-owls:

Just thought I would pop in before I go to bed to see what has been going on...and to make sure all my fellow MB'ers get to bed at a decent hour!! It's not Friday night yet, folks! LOL....

Hope4Future and SC: I'll leave the PC repair to y'all...and to my H who does the same (although he is looking for work right now). I'm a database (Informix/DB2..and Oracle..sigh)and ERP systems girl.

OK - everyone get as much sleep as they can...emotional rollercoasters are even more difficult to deal with when you are tired....s'aright..takin off my 'Mom hat' and heading to bed.

Sleep Well & God Bless Everyone Big Bunches!!

YellowRose

Ok...Spacecase and YR's hubby..you're HIRED!!! Just opened up a little shop downtown and need assistance badly. I'm training a novice...but he's just that...a novice. I'm hoping he'll catch on quick.

I've actually been a computer geek since I was 8 (1980.) The computer was a glorified calculator as I remember it. Then we went to a TRS80 and had to write our own programs. Dad was too cheap to buy games, so we subscribed to a magazine that would give you the program all written out, and we would type for days. If you had one comma where there should have been something else...the program wouldn't work. And the games...LOL!! All text, no graphics. "You are walking through the woods...you can go west on a rocky road or east on a pebble path" "Go west" "Bleep bleep bleep An OGRE is attacking you!" "Get mace" "Hit ogre with mace" It's no wonder I got so good at typing" I'm so glad we have CD's these days!!!

I didn't get the chance to go inside until we got our own in 1992. Hubby walked downstairs after giving in to my begging to get a computer only to find me with it on its side and all the guts strung out over the office. He just looked at it...and walked out of the office. LOL!!! Smart man!

Poor 2long...now I see the error in his ways. Mac? What was he thinking? LOL!!! The only Mac for me is a Big Mac. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

"Yes, 2L was very quick and creative on his feet with the assembly-line idea, but he's just a Mac guy, what does he know?!?!?! "

Hey, I resemble that remark!! I'll have you know that I've built 3 of my own PCs (the despicable thangs!) myself from parts. Though it is true that I've taken apart and reassembled a lot more Macs than that, I still need a PC to run a specialized camera I own.

Yeah, we had like 4 PCs and 6 Macs before the fire. Now we've just got one computer each. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
SC:

"Yes, 2L was very quick and creative on his feet with the assembly-line idea, but he's just a Mac guy, what does he know?!?!?! "

Hey, I resemble that remark!! I'll have you know that I've built 3 of my own PCs (the despicable thangs!) myself from parts. Though it is true that I've taken apart and reassembled a lot more Macs than that, I still need a PC to run a specialized camera I own.

Yeah, we had like 4 PCs and 6 Macs before the fire. Now we've just got one computer each. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I'm impressed, 2L! And since you resemble that remark, I'll refract it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hope4future:
I've actually been a computer geek since I was 8 (1980.) The computer was a glorified calculator as I remember it. Then we went to a TRS80 and had to write our own programs.

Poor 2long...now I see the error in his ways. Mac? What was he thinking? LOL!!! The only Mac for me is a Big Mac. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Oh, dear, don't EVEN remind me of the Trash-80 days!!! that's torture! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> At least you used it for games, I had to use it for business!!!

I agree with you: the only good mac is a Big Mac!!! LOL!!!

SC, H4F:

"Originally posted by hope4future:
I've actually been a computer geek since I was 8 (1980.)"

Heck, I don't think I ever WAS 8! 1980? Gee, if I wasn't so damned old, I bet I could REMEMBER 1980! My introduction to computers was in about 1973. (I forgot, I took a computer programming class in 1973, also. APL 360! Anybody remember that one??). I was taking a physics class at the local JC, and my dad had just spent 450 bucks on one of the first HP35 calculators. None of us had ever SEEN a calculator with trig functions on it until then (the "Bomar Brain" only had arithmetics), and I was still using my dad's old mahogany and ivory slide rule and trig and log tables to do math.

"The computer was a glorified calculator as I remember it. Then we went to a TRS80 and had to write our own programs."

By 1981, I was using an HP 9845 computer with 8-inch single-sided floppies and a built-in thermal printer. What a beast that was. HP basic was gibberish and took forever to convert from "regular" basic.

"Poor 2long...now I see the error in his ways. Mac? What was he thinking? LOL!!! The only Mac for me is a Big Mac.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, dear, don't EVEN remind me of the Trash-80 days!!! that's torture! At least you used it for games, I had to use it for business!!!
I agree with you: the only good mac is a Big Mac!!! LOL!!!""

You silly little people! Years ago, a friend of mine had the perfect comeback for all you Bill Gates Clone people. When someone asked him "Why do you use Macs? Woudln't you rather have something compatible?" he replied "Compatible with WHAT? Certainly not the human mind!!"

I'll have you kids know that my Mac can run Windows (I use it for applications that don't run in MacOS) and now with OS X, I can use it as a unix box as well (for the serious stuff I do at work). All on the same laptop.

"Unbridled Modesty," that's ol' 2long!

[ August 16, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]

Hi:

Since everyone is on the wayback machine, how about this? I started on a Honeywell 200 mainframe 128k real core (see wired together circular magnets) using Easycoder a binary language for the Honeywell. It had reel to reel tape drives and card readers for input.

Yes, I keypunched cards and sorted them before running them through a compiler program on the system. Man am I old.

I got to run and have my Geritol.

Jack

wmiw:

Oh yeah? Well, I'm so old that I can remember when you could put your hand on the ground and still feel the heat from the radioactive decay going on in the Earth's core. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm SO OLD that my mother sat behind Jesus in the third grade! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 16, 2002, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]

You're kidding! Now we're competing on who is older?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I am WAY younger than both of you, and happy about it! ROFLMAO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I have shoes older than you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey 2Long:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm SO OLD that my mother sat behind Jesus in the third grade! <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, but I was the Teacher <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You guys are too funny.

Jack

I guess it says something about the resilience of the human spirit that we can joke and laugh while in such trying circumstances!

This is an incedible community! Thanks!

PS: PEP! I'm trying to read "Passionate Marriage"...my head is spinning! I totally CANNOT keep up with this guy's line of thinking! (I guess it's been too many years since college textobooks LOL!!!)

Yeah,
and in a few years, one of 2longs - ahh lets say "young relatives" will ask " Grandpa, were you on Noah's ark?" and he will say "No, why do you ask?" and the reply will be " If you weren't on Noah's ark, why didn't you drown?"

I think I'll start a humor site, and just link it to this thread. Probably make a million in a few weeks.

SS

Well, I'm so old that I....I....hmmm. Can't seem to remember. It was a good one, though!

Passionate Marriage is NOT an easy book to read. I've read it more than twice ... but less than three times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... and it penetrates my conscious mind in a different way each time. I am a "high-lighter" reader underlining passages... no one could borrow my books because I write notes all over the inside and make comments and ask MYSELF questions ... I am certifiably nutz.

What are your recreational reading preferences Space? Give me an idea of the type of reading you enjoy.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi all: I'm 2long's bigsis, and once in awhile I check in here to see how he's doing (Ok 2long?). It's a bigsis thing.
I can't comment a lot because I'm not married and what the he!! would I know?
I love the support you give each other. I see that it helps and I see you all making progress and thinking.
Spacecase, Pepperband, you are 2cool.
Oh! And Pepperband, not nutz, but you read just like you should--interacting with text! Sorry, had to get that in--that's what I try to get my students to do.
I'm so old I'm still WEARING the shoes that are older than you guys.

Wow...I didn't even know they HAD shoes back then.

ROTFLMAO!!

Hey, I remember those keycard computers. My dad was in college then and I would tag along with. He used to take them home and we used them as bookmarks. Pretty crazy....

bigsis:

Yeah, I would have to say things are going okay. I'd like them to be a lot BETTER than OK, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> At least Rat Meat sent his reconstructed report to the office a couple of days ago, and the overall report will need to be completed in the next couple of weeks. I am having to make sure I don't get my hopes up that my W will offer NC soon, because so far she hasn't said anything about it (but she HAS remarked at how much calmer I've been the past few weeks). I did notice I was feeling down the other night, and realized that was why, so I'm being careful not to expect too much. Wish something would happen before that inteview on the 28th, because I know now that I'm on a 4-person short list for 3 jobs, so odds are pretty high they'll offer me a job. At least I'll have a few months to reply.

((2Long))

Doncha just love Prozac!

Personal question ... has it affected your libido ... either increased or decreased?

I started *vitimin P* a few months ago (post 9/11 blues and insomnia and other symptoms related to menopause).

I found an increased libido as an unexpected side effect!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Maybe that's simply because I am sleeping so much better.

Just asking ... feel free to ignore this rude question! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

P.S. Bigsis .... did you torture 2Long when you were growing up? I used to torture my baby bro by pulling his ears .... bro loves me big time... and his ears look better after all that pulling!

Hi 2long: Keep doing what you're doing. I can see it's making a difference in how you feel about things. It's going to pay off, I know it, and things will be more than OK because you will be.
Again, you all are terrific! and my bro is as loveable as he seems in print. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Just wanted to say howdy back and try using those graemlins! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
Passionate Marriage is NOT an easy book to read. I've read it more than twice ... but less than three times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ... and it penetrates my conscious mind in a different way each time. I am a "high-lighter" reader underlining passages... no one could borrow my books because I write notes all over the inside and make comments and ask MYSELF questions ... I am certifiably nutz.

What are your recreational reading preferences Space? Give me an idea of the type of reading you enjoy.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Too funny! I do almost exactly the same thing to books! Hilight, Notes, check-marks! Drives my W nuts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (I often buy her another copy if I'd like her to read it...it'll cause me no end of grief not to! LOL!!!)

Recreational reading...well, I haven't been doing much of that lately, although I did get that I-Ching book...my preference is History, in particular central asia and india (of late), WWII POW and spy stories, and spy/action novels; Clancy, Alistair Maclean, Len Deighton...big, big fascination with spies, cold-war, intrigue, and also financial/business novels.

That was probably MUCH more than you wanted to know, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hey BigSis!!! Love to have you back! 2L's been behavin'... kinda'! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pep:
Me, torture?? Of course not! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...though 2long may have a different story. His is probably exaggerated, of course.
(He ate mud when he was little--always interested in the scientific method. I have pictures.)
Once 2long introduced me and another sis to science friends. He said, "Here are 2 of my 4 sisters."
I had to correct him, "No, 2long, you have 3 sisters."
"No," he pointed out, "YOU have 3 sisters, I have 4."
Laughs on me! 'Course, that just shows I always thought he was one of us.
Gotta go. Take care, you all. bigsis

Pepster:

"Doncha just love Prozac!
Personal question ... has it affected your libido ... either increased or decreased?"

Hm... I don't think I've noticed a difference.

"I started *vitimin P* a few months ago (post 9/11 blues and insomnia and other symptoms related to menopause)."

I'm worried a little about mentalpause myself. When it happens, though, I expect I'll stop and think about it some...

9/11 was a shocker. After 10/19, when our house burned, I forgot about 9/11. On D-day, I forgot about 10/19. So now, when my W says she's stressed out over the house, I find myself not able to understand what the Big Deal is.

"P.S. Bigsis .... did you torture 2Long when you were growing up?"

He!! yeah, she tortued me!! So did my other three sisters!!! (I don't have any brothers, but my sisters do).

"I used to torture my baby bro by pulling his ears .... bro loves me big time... and his ears look better after all that pulling!""

I used to hit my sisters with my toy guns, which at the time were made out of metal. So my folks stopped buying them for me. Then, I broke the door to my bedroom by slamming it too hard, so my dad took it off and I lived without a door (changed behind my dresser) until we moved. THEN he replaced the door!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 16, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Pepper:
P.S. Bigsis .... did you torture 2Long when you were growing up? I used to torture my baby bro by pulling his ears .... bro loves me big time... and his ears look better after all that pulling!
<hr /></blockquote>Most definitely! Even if she won't admit it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You don't get to be THAT weird just naturally, y'know? Colored shoes, warped sense of humor...BigSis was probably worse that you, Pep!!! 2L will probably need years of IC AFTER he gets over this hump!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2L; 4 sisters!!! No Brothers!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> no wonder you're a mess!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

See? That's what I've been telling people ALL MY LIFE! NOTHING is my fault! (unless it's a good thing, then I will cheerfully accept accolades).

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> MUD-EATER <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Oh, my! I just realized something! I am one of 3 brothers (no sisters) and the middle one at that! PLUS, I'm one of 15 cousins, only 2 of which are female...you think maybe that's why I don't have a clue how to communicate with my W?
No, can't be! I was very successful with the chicks when I was young...'course I wasn't married to any of them...oh, heck, I don't know! It was just a thought! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pepper:

See? Even then, I was focusing in on sedimentary geology. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SC:

"Oh, my! I just realized something! I am one of 3 brothers (no sisters) and the middle one at that!"

I'm in the middle of them 4 sisters! I've suffered FAR more than you (and I'm a lot older than you, too!)

"you think maybe that's why I don't have a clue how to communicate with my W?"

Yes, SC, I do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"No, can't be! I was very successful with the chicks when I was young...'course I wasn't married to any of them...oh, heck, I don't know! It was just a thought!"

just remember to keep those thoughts to yourself!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Space,

I am happy to see that this is such a jovial group of people today!!

I have 2 sisters and have long thought that the reason I had trouble communicating with men was because I had no brothers. Just my dad who would never talk about "unpleasantries" which was just about anything meaningful. Anything more serious than the latest weather pattern made him very uncomfortable. He's a great dad but just don't plan to talk with him about "feelings". He'll show you how he feels!!

So I decided the solution to this was to choose a male counselor to see if he could give me insight on why I have trouble communicating with men. That didn't seem to work because I had no trouble communicating with him because I wasn't in a relationship with him!

So what happened? I have 2 boys ages 8 & 9! NOW I am starting to figure out why men are they way they are!! It's all becoming perfectly clear; and actually seeing how they develop...I wonder how and why they become civilized. Just this week we had trama in the classroom when my 9 year old refused to pick a seat on the first day of school. It was becoming very uncomfortable as the teacher was shooting H & I dagger looks as son's agony went on...... Finally he chose a seat. After school I asked him..WHat was the problem?

Problem was 2 of the 3 seats available were NEXT TO GIRLS! The last seat was next to a boy he knew but just on the OTHER side of the classroom from his best friend. He would have had to sit next to a girl eeeewwwww...in order to be near his best friend; and he just couldn't pay that price.

I am the only girl they will have anything to do with. I appear to be exempt! This is where my "boy" education stops! Which leaves me with a whole lot more to learn obviously! CSue

CSue:

"and actually seeing how they develop...I wonder how and why they become civilized."

Um... ...we don't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CSue:
I am the only girl they will have anything to do with. I appear to be exempt! This is where my "boy" education stops! Which leaves me with a whole lot more to learn obviously! CSue
<hr /></blockquote>CSue, you have NOTHING to worry about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> By the time they are 13-14-15, and the hormones take over their brains (they do that, y'know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) they will acquire their girl-relationship-management skills...

CSue sighs....rolls eyes and says "no wonder!"

BTW the word was trauma...sheesh!!! And I knew that!

SC:

"they will acquire their girl-relationship-management skills..."

You mean, like you and I did? DOH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Space,

I suppose that time will be highly entertaining and educational for me! You have a son and daughter right? You got to witness first hand for both sexes! CSue

2long, Did you gain insight watching your son and daughter grow in to teenagers? I feel like I am watching a science project on gender relations! CSue

CSue:

Actually, while my D was growing up, my W and I were to flabbergasted (and it takes a lot to gast our flabber!) at how much better she handled her Rs than we ever did. She's 23 now, and we're both very proud of her. My son is 15, and he's just starting to really get a bunch of friends at his high school. He's a very nice person, too. I have high hopes for him in the future.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Personal question ... has it affected your libido ... either increased or decreased?

I started *vitimin P* a few months ago (post 9/11 blues and insomnia and other symptoms related to menopause).
<hr /></blockquote>Not to get off topic...but what the heck, everyone else has. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I could use a little boost in that area (libido). But, I thought it was just my age... since we are talking about AGE and libido.

It is bad to be in recovery and have a low sex drive! Wish you could by it in vitamin form. Any other suggestions?

Oh, it's been HIGHLY entertaining to see the twins grow up! Personally, I have a huge tolerance for teen-ager antics, which annoys my wife to no end, but I just have so much fun seeing my kids do the same things I did!

Oh, and don't pay attention to 2L; he's just an uncivilized caveman! Me, I'm a civilized caveman!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I believe that simply by the way we raise our kids these days (compared to the dark ages when 2L was raised) the communication skills are almost automatically better. At least in our family, there are NO hangups, and a VERY liberal environment for expression ("John!!, John!! get down here! Mom just Fa--ed!!!!!") so, I have faith that they are much better communicators that I was.

See. I was talking to my W on the phone, and clicked before I'd finished.

Anyway, I was going to say that it is interesting to me how we both (W & I) raised our kids this way, and communications between them and us are great, no secrets, no hangups, no censorship, and yet, between my W & I...serious problems.

By the way, this very point has been one of the MAJOR issues my kids have with their mom right now; how she always taught them that "the truth is ALWAYS better, no matter what it is, with the truth we can find a soution. When you lie, THEN I have a problem, then you will be punished" so it has been shattering to them to see her lying...big issue with them!

[ August 16, 2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

"I believe that simply by the way we raise our kids these days (compared to the dark ages when 2L was raised) the communication skills are almost automatically better."

Oh, gee thanks, SC. Rub it in!! That isn't a fair comparison... ...YOU had LANGUAGE!

A neighbor of mine, back in those days, tried to get a patent on a round, flat stone with a hole in the center, that he had invented. The patent clerk exclaimed "My! You've invented the wheel!!!" To which my friend replied, "No, actually it's a Cassegrain mirror blank!"

Figure that one out, SC! Call ME an uncivilized Caveman, will you! I lived in a mud hut!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
CSue:

Actually, while my D was growing up, my W and I were to flabbergasted (and it takes a lot to gast our flabber!) at how much better she handled her Rs than we ever did. She's 23 now, and we're both very proud of her. My son is 15, and he's just starting to really get a bunch of friends at his high school. He's a very nice person, too. I have high hopes for him in the future.<hr /></blockquote>2long,

It must be in the genes somewhere! Or they learned it in the environment that you and W provided. Back to the age old question nature vs nuture! I also wonder how much birth order plays in the equation.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2L;
A neighbor of mine, back in those days, tried to get a patent on a round, flat stone with a hole in the center, that he had invented. The patent clerk exclaimed "My! You've invented the wheel!!!" To which my friend replied, "No, actually it's a Cassegrain mirror blank!"

Figure that one out, SC! Call ME an uncivilized Caveman, will you! I lived in a mud hut!!
<hr /></blockquote>You got me there, 2L...I don't have a clue! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2long, that of course was "nurture". I can't spell today!

Susan,

I was on Wellbutrin at one point to counter act the side effect of Prozac - low libido. It seemed to help. But stopping Prozac was the best thing for me. I just had to get to a point where I could stop Prozac because being depressed also affects libido.

Wellbutrin is what smokers are given to help counter the effects of stopping smoking. I didn't notice any side effects of Wellbutrin. CSue

YES ... I will email you my suggestions!

I am in a home full of teenagers right now Susan.... later... when the coast is clear <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spacecase:
[QB]Oh, it's been HIGHLY entertaining to see the twins grow up! Personally, I have a huge tolerance for teen-ager antics, which annoys my wife to no end, but I just have so much fun seeing my kids do the same things I did!<hr /></blockquote>I can see her point! Probably about the same way the girls in 9year old son's class feel when they see him sweat over sitting next to them! She sees regression in you...LOL!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Oh, and don't pay attention to 2L; he's just an uncivilized caveman! Me, I'm a civilized caveman!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I believe that simply by the way we raise our kids these days (compared to the dark ages when 2L was raised) the communication skills are almost automatically better. At least in our family, there are NO hangups, and a VERY liberal environment for expression ("John!!, John!! get down here! Mom just Fa--ed!!!!!") so, I have faith that they are much better communicators that I was.

See. I was talking to my W on the phone, and clicked before I'd finished.]<hr /></blockquote>You were??????

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Anyway, I was going to say that it is interesting to me how we both (W & I) raised our kids this way, and communications between them and us are great, no secrets, no hangups, no censorship, and yet, between my W & I...serious problems.

By the way, this very point has been one of the MAJOR issues my kids have with their mom right now; how she always taught them that "the truth is ALWAYS better, no matter what it is, with the truth we can find a soution. When you lie, THEN I have a problem, then you will be punished" so it has been shattering to them to see her lying...big issue with them!]<hr /></blockquote>What a difficult position your W must find herself in trying to rationalize dishonesty to your kids!!!! Glad that's not me! And it must be a significant part of the betrayal for you. The dishonesty part that is required in an A is a complete and totally separate issue for me that I am having to learn to deal with. It's the trust thing and how am I supposed to trust again? CSue

CSue ... I know one of the usual side effects of Prozac is decreased libido ... which is why the increased libido is such a pleasant surprise. Just goes to show ya that we all respond differently to chemical enhancement. My son takes Wellbutrin for his ADHD ... and it works really well for him at this time. When he was younger, it did nothing for him.

Susan .... I will email you some dirty stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

Well, I will say that I haven't noticed any DECREASE.

Pepper that's the 1st time I've heard increased liido! How wonderful. I'm curious about wellbutrin for your son. How old was he when it started working for him?

Space is always so generous with his thread. He never seems to mind side discussions...right Space? CSue

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SC: See. I was talking to my W on the phone, and clicked before I'd finished.

CSue: You were?????? <hr /></blockquote>Yes, she's been calling to coordinate for her pc "fix" tomorrow...nothing major...I need to just keep cool.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />SC: By the way, this very point has been one of the MAJOR issues my kids have with their mom right now; how she always taught them that "the truth is ALWAYS better, no matter what it is, with the truth we can find a soution. When you lie, THEN I have a problem, then you will be punished" so it has been shattering to them to see her lying...big issue with them!

CSue: What a difficult position your W must find herself in trying to rationalize dishonesty to your kids!!!! Glad that's not me! And it must be a significant part of the betrayal for you. The dishonesty part that is required in an A is a complete and totally separate issue for me that I am having to learn to deal with. It's the trust thing and how am I supposed to trust again? CS <hr /></blockquote>VERY difficult position! That's probably why she's so hysterically accusing me of turning them against her. She somehow has rationalized that I (of ALL people) have to "protect" her reputation by not telling anyone about the A and the lies, and all the other C--p!

I'm not even sure WHAT she's going to do to tell her family that I left home...I'm not going there! (Or WHAT she'll tell them!) But they will know soon enough...we ALL get together for dinner every Friday, and I will not be there tonight...

Oh, I LOVE side discussions! (notice Bigsis comes HERE looking for 2L! LOL!!!)

But, I'm generous to a point!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Pep: Susan .... I will email you some dirty stuff!
<hr /></blockquote>I expect to get the "dirty" stuff too!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My son takes Wellbutrin for his ADHD ... and it works really well for him at this time. When he was younger, it did nothing for him.

Susan .... I will email you some dirty stuff! <hr /></blockquote>Soooo...have you asked your son about his libido? Just kidding. I'm sure you don't need to worry. Teenage hormones! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Along with the dirty stuff you email me, include a perscription that I can print out please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Spacecase wrote:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> 2L; 4 sisters!!! No Brothers!!! no wonder you're a mess!!!
<hr /></blockquote>Geez....How did he get THAT lucky? What's worse than a mess? LOL

Try 6 sisters and NO brothers.....One posts on here and keeps up with my sanity....I'll let her be anonymous, though.....On second thought, she probably doesn't want anyone to know I'M her bro...

HCII

Spacey said: "I expect to get the "dirty" stuff too !!! "

........ dream on!

These are the divine secrets of the sisterhood .... a club of which YOU are NOT a member!

........ ask 2L to send you some "dirty" stuff .... he's a mud-eater and a world famous dirt expert! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ August 16, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Aw, forget it! Two feet in mouth is too much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Hmmmm...

That's ok hcii. You might not want anyone to know that I am your Sis!!!!
(Ooops, the cat is out of the bag now.)

After all, I tend to be the colossal pita that posts simply because I am the "no nonsense" kinda girl. Guess I am just a tad intolerant...huh? That must come from having been in a 1st marriage that literally drained me of all self worth and then deciding (and finding)that my second would NEVER be like that. As life would have it, my 2nd marriage ended with the unexpected death of my husband. Now I find myself in a "committed" relationship that rivals my 2nd marriage. I am one lucky person!

P.S. Even on my brother's WORST day I would be proud to claim him as my brother. We are so close that a mere 17 months separates us in age.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I actually got worried that something had happend when I saw several new pages.

Hey, you guys are better than the Sunday funnies anyday!!

Dirt eater, LOL!!!

Hi everyone:

What a great turn this thread has taken! Humor is the best medicine. Some day I am going to have to get me some of that humor stuff.

I hope you all have a fantastic weekend.

Jack

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That's ok hcii. You might not want anyone to know that I am your Sis!!!!
(Ooops, the cat is out of the bag now.)

P.S. Even on my brother's WORST day I would be proud to claim him as my brother. We are so close that a mere 17 months separates us in age.<hr /></blockquote>Well.....Making me cry, again.

She knows good and well that I would not have made it through this without her.

She's got this knack of being very objective. Shoots straight from the hip, yet could always converse with me in the "opposite", and caused me to think, think, think.

Yet the ONLY thing she wants, is for me to be happy.

Enough of this.

We now return you to the saga of "Affairs that don't end...2B...or not 2B?

HCII

Good morning! Glad everyone's enjoying this!

I'm headed out to fix my W's pc, so I'm sure I'll have some new stuff later on.

Good luck, SC, on your "mission."

Me? I'm not eating any mud today. Just regluing an old dresser. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"an old dresser"

QUIT talkin' 'bout me being unglued 2Longamudeater.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We're about to head out to see

"My Big Fat Greek Wedding"

Tell Falafel I'll let him know how it is!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

My WW is Greek. 1st Generation.
(Very cute!)

I really want to see that movie.
Please tell me if it would be good for me and WW to see together!

Thanks!

ST

You kidding?

All WSs are Greek to me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

spacecase, hopefully while you're fixing her computer, you could give her a labotomy (sp??)

I loved "My big fat greek wedding", just came from the movies from watching it. I laughed a lot and it was cute.

Despite the guy I have always had a crush in is on it, since I saw him in Northern Exposure I've liked him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

It made me a bit sad at parts because of the whole wedding-love stuff. I never got to even have a proper engagement not even a ring, and my wedding sucked because my xWH didn't really care about it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , but I tried to get over it and enjoy anyways. He kept trying to hold my hand but I just wasn't being too receptive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Hmmm, I see Pepper came unglued, 2L didn't eat any mud today, and he discovered WSs are "Greek" (HELLOOOO!), ST's WW IS Greek, for some odd reason GC thinks I'm a brain surgeon (although I'd sure like to give the lobotomy a try with my tool-set...hmmm, intriguing thought!), and ALW has a crush on an actor...Busy Day!!!

Well, so I made it to "my" house around noon, and I had a lot of trouble reconstructing my WW's pc...it all started off fine, smooth, but when I installed NAV, it would NOT run LiveUpdate! It just kept saying that LU had been uninstalled! Very bizzare...so after a few tries, I gave up and reformatted the whole disk, and started from scratch. Everything went without a hitch, and I finished about 1/2 a hour ago, so it was a full 11+ hours! JEEZ!!!

Nothing really happened all day, we didn't talk too much, watched a few movies while trying to get the pc running, she made me lunch and coffe several times, but no attempt at any serious conversation all day.

She was, of course, almost asleep by the time I got up to leave (11:30 or so), and she was very, very thankful, hugged me and kissed me, and I just kinda acted a little cool, did give her a peck back and told her it was my pleasure, ... I went in her room and said goodbye to my D, and started down the stairs. My W stood by the rail and I stopped, turned to her and said "Well, you should probably think about some other ways of getting these things done, since it's a bit difficult for me while I'm not living here.", she opened her eyes (quick wake-up) and said "I'm sorry, what was that?", so I said "I think you should be thinking about some other ways of getting all these things I do for you done, because it's a little difficult for me to do them when I'm not living here." she just stared at me, not angry, just kinda' floored I guess...I stared right back for a few seconds, made SURE I didn't blink, and headed down the stairs and out. She didn't say another word.

And that's about it. We shall see how and if she'll react to that. I guarantee you I ruined her sleep tonight, wondering what I meant by that....

oohh, if you floored her that much, maybe you should go check on her , there may be a heap at the bottom of the stairs, kidding.

good for you for telling her that, shows that you won't be convenient and available for her and her beck and call!!

Yeah, I think it's one more "clue" in a string of clues that have been coming at her since the day I left...perhaps as we build towards the full Plan B, she'll reconsider having that "talk" she'd told Steve she was ready to have with me.

The "Radical Honesty and Evidence" talk Steve said she needed...

But time is running out...next call w/Steve is Monday 9AM...and during that she'll either have to be VERY convincing that she's ready to go, or it's full Plan B...we shall see. I'm certainly NOT very willing to "wait it out" until she decides something.

John Corbett is my all time crush. *sighs and gets all teeny-dreamy*

Just don't tell my husband or he'll tease me about it forever LOL.

Oh yeah, and I agree, you floored her good. Well she may be getting the clues better now. I am glad you have the opportunity to talk with SH about plan B go o no go.

You did wonderfully! Man that was cool!

[ August 18, 2002, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Alostwife ]

Dear Spacecase,

I've been following your thread as best I can, when I can get on the computer - its just soo..sooo..what can I say - you are just doing great...you know what you want - you love your wife and want your marriage, a REAL marriage back - I am just so amazed that you are doing this without LBing - that was such an act of love to fix her computer - but walk away from her like that.

I don't think you could have done better.

You posted a note on my thread last week and I haven't been able to reply - you said you were glad that it looked like my H and I were starting to improve on communication, and you were sad that you didn't seem to have been able to reach that point with your W.

I just want to say that I don't think any improvement with my H would be happening had I not started to put plan B into effect back at Easter. I had genuinely reached my limit - I did not have a plan carefully worked out, as you do (even better - much better - spontaneous plan B is not a good idea financially) - but I had definitely reached my limit with his behaviour. I communicated my desire for him to leave over a period of a week, with a series of short, calm, conversations. I was not ruffled by his anger or his excuses because I knew what I wanted and was ready to walk and live with it. I said what I had to say and walked away. It was only over the course of a week, when he realized that my feelings were not changing from day to day, that he realized that I meant what I said. I saw the fear on his face and in his eyes grow as the week went on. He did not stop seeing or talking to OW during this time, but he began to realize that this was not a game and the cost of his fun was going to be very very high. At the end of that week, I told him I still loved him and wanted us to work out, but that it was either me or her. Period. So I did let him know that I did still love him. I believe that it was a slow process, this waking up - but at the end of the week, he had admitted that "he had a problem" and he had got himself into individual counselling. As you know, it has been a rocky 6 months from then, and we still have yet to get to MC, and I still do not have the kind of actions I need to be fully confident that he will be "faithful" in the future.

What I am saying is that I don't think we would even be as far along as we are, had I not made it clear to him that he cease his behaviour or it was plan B. I think his IC is finally starting to bear fruit - just my intuition. I feel we are finally starting to recover some of the love we had for each other, and respect for each other's feelings.

But it took starting to go to plan B before he realized he was going to have to handle his problems before it was too late. I hope and pray that your wife will realize soon that she needs to pull her finger out soon and start to get to work. Until she does, you must not waver - she will be looking to see how determined you are. You are in such good hands with SH - I think he is right about not giving her mixed messages - much as you might want to be more affectionate, it is better to stay more distant right now - better for you, too. Will be praying for you both.

Take care,
LIR

Thanks LIR; glad you had time to come by!

I appreciate your encouragement; it's good to hear from others that were doing well, sometimes we doubt so much...

One question: do you think that there was a gradual change in your communications w/WH as he began to show honesty and to work on the M?

Sometimes I feel like I should, by now, have been able to have a lot more to talk about with my W, but I still feel so guarded, since I still distrust so much, and especially because she has not been honest and forthcoming about her feelings, the truth, etc.

You think I'll start feeling differently as she begins to open up? (If she does).

[ August 18, 2002, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Thinking about today, everything that happened, what didn't happen, made me realize a few things.

I was able to spend almost a whole day with my W and not break down at all. During the day, as we watched TV (while working on the pc) there were dozens of triggers; it is amazing when we care to think about it how almost every film has some sort of reference to infidelity, whether it's marital infidelity or betrayal of a friendship, or whatever it is. In any case, we were both there, a lot of these came and went, and I stayed calm and collected, just did my thing.

Several times during the day, she'd say thank you for what I was doing, or comment what a pain this was to do, tell me she's sorry I had to spend my day doing this, thank you. A couple of times she came up, touched my shoulder or back, and I didn't react once.

Don't know if it mean much, but I do feel much stronger and able to remain detached and be OK. I even wonder if showing TOO much detachment might not send the wrong signal; like I've given up on us, or given up on being able to rebuild.

But for now, it seems to be having some impact on her, and it sure is making me feel better and stonger.

SC:

Judging from the times you posted, you're not getting enough sleep!

I don't watch much TV, unless it's about fixing old houses or furniture or some such. Too many triggers is right. Last night, my W and I watched "Six ft. under" which of course is full of R stuff. After it was over, my W started crying and asked "will our world really ever get better?" I wasn't sure whether she was asking about US, or the planet. So I said ILY and that "we're going to be okay." She held me pretty tight for a little while... ...then it all went away and we're back to whatever "normal" is right now. Oh well, at least the vitamin P is working.

SC, you're going to be okay, too!

SC,
You're doing great! I love what you said to your WW as you were leaving! Give her something to think about! I know exactly what you mean by the detachment deal...if we act too detached, will it send the wrong message? I struggle with that. As WH talks about us leasing a home, and other things about the future, do I just act like it's going to happen? Or do I act cool and neutral about things? The problem is, I don't know what WH wants from me. Other than wanting to avoid conflict or pain (that's what he told me).
Anyhow, I talk to SH on Thurs. morning. Since it's my first consultation, should I write down a brief history of what's been going on? I'm afraid if I try to do it from memory it might take the whole hour. Also, do I call him Steve, Mr. Harley, Dr. Harley?
Take care and thanks for listening SC.
KK

Hi there!


One question: do you think that there was a gradual change in your communications w/WH as he began to show honesty and to work on the M?

This is a good question. First, let me say that we have not yet been able to talk about his "affairs" (both of them - EA's). Nor has he "been honest" - in other words, he is not forthcoming of his own free will with the things I want to see to be able to feel confident that he recognizes where he went wrong (his weaknesses) and that he is willing to do what I need for reassurance. These include -

A. Taking the code/lock off his cellphone and
preferably, handing it to me so that I can
check his messages and phone log
whenever I want to.

B. Giving me the password to his e-mail
account so that I can check up on him
whenever I feel anxious that OW might try
to contact him.

C. Talking honestly to me, without getting
angry, about how these things came to
happen and what he is doing to prevent
them from happening in the future.

D. "Normalizing" our finances so that ALL of
our money is pooled in one joint bank
account.

E. Along with D above, this includes that he
stop hiding cash in his dresser drawer.

F. Along with D above, this include
including me on "his" credit card.

At present, I do not enjoy the luxury of a Visa or MC, while he has one with a £5,000 credit limit. He has earned this for good credit on his personal bank account. I see this as credit I have contributed to earning since I have worked damn hard to keep us debt-free for the 14 years we have been married. But he is "taking all the credit" - as it were. Exactly. I am not a person with a problem spending on credit. It's unreasonable controlling behaviour to deny me the credit I have earned - and it ties me down hand and foot. For instance, when my brother died and I had to go to the funeral, it was a holiday weekend, and of course, we did not have time to wait for the airline to post us the tickets - I had to pick them up at the airport. In a normal R, that would not be a problem - I would sign for them. But since they were bought on HIS credit card, he was the only person able to sign for them. The only reason I was able to get them was because he called up and yelled at everyone on the phone about how ridiculous THEIR rules were and this was a bereavement trip -so they softened. It was inwardly pretty humiliating not to be able to sign for my own tickets as a wife, in order to get to my own brother's funeral. Ridiculous.

What's my point? These are the things I want to see happen - these are my ultimate goals - aside from all the other stuff - better communication, respect for each other, meeting each other's EN's, etc.

But these are my specific goals to achieve through THERAPY. I recognize that I cannot get this without counselling.

What I can do is work on improving communication between us, so that we are able to begin to have the constructive conversations in therapy which will achieve the points I want above. And this is what I am seeing now - a willingness, and a gradual softening of his hard and defensive position. A gradual responsiveness to me in general. An effort to be appreciative and helpful.

I can't say that I am not still full of doubt. But at last I am hopeful - and I am trying not to sabotage the good things that seem to be happening.

Sometimes I feel like I should, by now, have been able to have a lot more to talk about with my W, but I still feel so guarded, since I still distrust so much, and especially because she has not been honest and forthcoming about her feelings, the truth, etc.

I have the same feelings. But I am telling myself that he is actually making progress - he is taking babysteps towards honesty, and openness, so I shall have to see where this leads. We are in the last two weeks of summer - after Sept, things will start up again in earnest - he will go back to work rehearsing, and will have his Mon nite rehearsals again - those are the evenings he started staying out late having a drink with OW2. I am wondering what I am going to do about that - do I ask him to come home straight afterwards to reassure me? Do I get a babysitter and meet him for a drink afterwards? Do I play squash on that night and ask him to pick me up from the sports club when he is done? How do I make sure that time is not available him to get tangled up again with someone new - especially when we are not yet able to talk about the last one?

I tried discussing this with a (male) friend who thought I was demanding too much of him - he said I had to trust him - he had a ring on his finger and I should trust him and not make him feel like he had to report to me. I said I trusted him last year, which was after OW1 - he turned around and got tangled up with OW2 behind my back while I thought everything was in recovery from OW1 - so how do I trust him now? Don't you think its time he had to prove himself to me, instead of me having to demonstrate my trust in him?

You think I'll start feeling differently as she begins to open up? (If she does).

I think BOTH of us will start feeling differently once our spouses start opening up and talking to us again. I know I have felt a lot better since I have been seeing some responsiveness and willingness to talk start to emerge in my H.

For instance, I have been "stewing" about this conversation I had on the phone with female friend - I ended up getting into a heated argument with her and I have not called to apologize. She asked how things were and I ended up saying more than I wanted - I don't like a lot of her "advice" which was very critical of me (this is a long story - she and her H have a very troubled M - he hits her, she rationalizes it ). Anyway - she calls and talks to my H sometimes - she is more friends with him than with me - I am afraid of how her ideas might influence him, and have been anxious bcos I am afraid she might call and say that I was angry and rude to her. But I have been afraid to talk to my H about it. So yesterday, I did bring it up - and I said I was worried bcos when she called, we got into a heated exchange - I told him some of the things she said to me. Instead of defending her, he actually said - "Well, they have a lot of problems and I think that's pretty obvious." I said, "Yes, but they are both very critical of me, and I worry about how much you pay attention to their opinions." He said "I wouldn't worry about it - she has obviously got a lot of her own problems." So I feel very relieved - he was (at least I think he was) trying to reassure me that he saw that their marriage was very troubled and he didn't pay too much attention to them.

I see that as him being reassuring to me - a good sign.

This is long - maybe not too helpful.

The short answer? Gradual! LOL
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But hey! I'm a girt - I take 6 zillion words to analyze what a guy can say in one!

LIR

Space,

I've been thinking lately about what Plan B would accomplish in my own situation. I know that the timing of it is designed to preserve the love we have left for our spouse. For myself it would also preserve my own self respect and dignity. I mean come on, fog or not there is only so much emotional battering a person can take! Emotional ABUSE is what it is!

It seems that dealing with WS, especially in an EA, is like dealing with a BRAT. BRAT in the dictionary means "an unruly child". I think we all have parts of us that are still immature/bratty. Plan B is almost like a "time out" for WS, or maybe a self imposed "time out" so BS can have some peace and time to heal ourselves. I dont want to demean or infantilize
our WS, but I think GROWING UP would go a long way in rebuilding our marriages. In my own case I have a lot of growing up to do by standing up for myself without LB's. The selfindulgent/pleasure seeking of an A is incredibly childish/bratty. The continued contact/lying/cheating, is like juvenile delinquency. This triggers my habit of major LB's bigtime.

In my own case, PLan B would probably be viewed by H as some sort of threat or manipulation/game playing/controlling. In reality I would have NO expectations of any specific result, only a need to take care of ME and give him a chance to make some decisions.

I have followed your posts for awhile now, trying to learn something. I have no advice, only thoughts to share with you and others.

Replaced

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
SC:

Judging from the times you posted, you're not getting enough sleep!

SC, you're going to be okay, too!<hr /></blockquote>2L; Actually I'm sleeping better than last week, just odd hours. I went to bed after a few posts about 12:45, then woke up about 3:someting for about an hour, went back to sleep and just woke up. So overall, I'm OK in that department.

The "coversation" with your W about the film is exactly what I'm talking about. You see, my W and I can't even talk about those things yet. I feel it, I presume she feels SOMETHING, but we can say anything to each other yet. We're just so far apart right now.

Thanks, I know we'll be OK.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kk2002:
SC,
You're doing great! I love what you said to your WW as you were leaving! Give her something to think about! I know exactly what you mean by the detachment deal...if we act too detached, will it send the wrong message? I struggle with that. As WH talks about us leasing a home, and other things about the future, do I just act like it's going to happen? Or do I act cool and neutral about things? <hr /></blockquote>Hey, KK!
The way I've handled that is that any talk of "the future", things that either don't have a particular short timeframe or "things we'd like to do", I am positive about. In other words, sending the message that, yes, we're going to be together in the future.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
The problem is, I don't know what WH wants from me. Other than wanting to avoid conflict or pain (that's what he told me).<hr /></blockquote>I don't have a clue what my W wants from me either. She doesn't even say she wants to avoid conflic or pain. NOTHING at all, so I'm totally clueless there. Right now I think she's wanting to avoid the subject altogether. And it's curious, because although we have not talked about it almost at all since our confrontation about my knowing of ongoing contact, when she talked to Steve, she still tells him that she feels the "pressure" of having "this" going on all the time. And even at the time of that conversation, we'd only been talking about it maybe once a week or less, and for less that an hour at a time.
So even if we're NOT talking about it, it's in the air. Frankly, I feel that too.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Anyhow, I talk to SH on Thurs. morning. Since it's my first consultation, should I write down a brief history of what's been going on? I'm afraid if I try to do it from memory it might take the whole hour. Also, do I call him Steve, Mr. Harley, Dr. Harley?
Take care and thanks for listening SC.
KK <hr /></blockquote>Maybe a bullet list of the key milestones to remind you of events, otherwise, things just seem to start coming out as needed with Steve's questions. Don't worry, he knows what to ask to get the picture.
You can call him Steve, I think; I do.

[ August 18, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

10 minutes before Mr. Pepper and I were to leave for the movies ... I went to empty the clothes dryer, and I heard <drip> <drip> <~DRRRRIPPPPP~> sounds .... our water heater was hemorrhaging!

2 plumbers and $700 later ... we abandoned the movie date.

Today I am grateful for hot water.

Spacey ... I don't think it is even possible for YOU to act so detached from your WW that she will think you do not love her. Your love for her oozes from your eyes (I'm sure of this).

Way to go .... the spending 11 hours doing her a personal favor, and your parting truth shared with her was NOT a LB ... but a boundary.

Thumbs UP !!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
Hi there!

This is a good question. First, let me say that we have not yet been able to talk about his "affairs" (both of them - EA's). Nor has he "been honest" - in other words, he is not forthcoming of his own free will with the things I want to see to be able to feel confident that he recognizes where he went wrong (his weaknesses) and that he is willing to do what I need for reassurance. These include -

A. Taking the code/lock off his cellphone
B. Giving me the password to his e-mail
C. Talking honestly to me, without getting
angry, about how these things came to
happen and what he is doing to prevent
them from happening in the future.
D. "Normalizing" our finances
E. Along with D above, this includes that he
stop hiding cash in his dresser drawer.
F. Along with D above, this include
including me on "his" credit card.

LIR; I guess the "talking" about it openly comes with time, but I ALSO think that talking about is says more about trust than about communication. In other words, when they are able to openly talk about it, it means they trust us with their weakness and that we won't use it to hurt them. MUCH more important than what is said, in my view.

About the list of things; Have you talked about these with him? Asked for them? I think you neet to, in the context of a trust-building conversation, and preferably done by the C.

The "money" things, especially the CC, that's just controlling and demeaning. That has to end ASAP! Not sure how, but that just cannot be!

But these are my specific goals to achieve through THERAPY. I recognize that I cannot get this without counselling.

I agree. And joint counseling is best for this.

What I can do is work on improving communication between us, so that we are able to begin to have the constructive conversations in therapy which will achieve the points I want above. And this is what I am seeing now - a willingness, and a gradual softening of his hard and defensive position. A gradual responsiveness to me in general. An effort to be appreciative and helpful.

I can't say that I am not still full of doubt. But at last I am hopeful - and I am trying not to sabotage the good things that seem to be happening.

It seems you are willing to be much more patient than I am or have been. Maybe you should harden up your position a bit, at least in terms of joint MC. I think that will help you start dealing with the things YOU want and need to happen.

...he will go back to work rehearsing, and will have his Mon nite rehearsals again - those are the evenings he started staying out late having a drink with OW2. I am wondering what I am going to do about that - do I ask him to come home straight afterwards to reassure me? Do I get a babysitter and meet him for a drink afterwards? Do I play squash on that night and ask him to pick me up from the sports club when he is done? How do I make sure that time is not available him to get tangled up again with someone new - especially when we are not yet able to talk about the last one?

I feel you just HAVE to address this. Just because he hasn't been able to talk about it doesn't mean you should suffer so. Tell him honestly and withour recrimination that this concerns you, and what he thinks he can do about it.

I tried discussing this with a (male) friend who thought I was demanding too much of him - he said I had to trust him - he had a ring on his finger and I should trust him and not make him feel like he had to report to me. I said I trusted him last year, which was after OW1 - he turned around and got tangled up with OW2 behind my back while I thought everything was in recovery from OW1 - so how do I trust him now? Don't you think its time he had to prove himself to me, instead of me having to demonstrate my trust in him? 

Your male friend is clueless. Remember what we say around here about "well-meaning friends, family and therepists". I find that I cannot have conversations about this with anyone unless I have previously explained the principles, facts etc. and the person has bought into them. My father, for instance. I spent several hours talking to him about the "theory" of infidelity and recovery, Harley, etc. before I even started talking about my situation. So when I did, he was totally on board and it made sense to him.
Remember that most everyone, including all of us before we came here and learned, had a very different view of all these things. And being from a Latin background, I know that Europeans, like latins, ahve a much more tolerant view of H's EMAs. (rememeber what some of the European papers and magazines were saying when the Clinton/Lewinski thing happened, asking what the big deal was) Bad idea to discuss it w/someone who hasn't "learned" some of this. If you have a close friend you want to be able to talk to, I'd suggest you do what I did; give them the books, ask them to read them, tell you what they think, and then discuss these things with them.

I think BOTH of us will start feeling differently once our spouses start opening up and talking to us again. I know I have felt a lot better since I have been seeing some responsiveness and willingness to talk start to emerge in my H.

Hope so!!!

The short answer? Gradual! LOL
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But hey! I'm a girt - I take 6 zillion words to analyze what a guy can say in one!

LIR

Love you input, LIR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Question for everybody,

Do I sound mean and cold, unemotional?

I think I do and I dont like it. I bet H doesnt like it either! Just one more habit I need to change?

Replaced

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Replaced:
Space,

I've been thinking lately about what Plan B would accomplish in my own situation. I know that the timing of it is designed to preserve the love we have left for our spouse. For myself it would also preserve my own self respect and dignity. I mean come on, fog or not there is only so much emotional battering a person can take! Emotional ABUSE is what it is!<hr /></blockquote>R; There is NO QUESTION that Plan B is also for the BS's preservation of sanity! You have NO idea the difference it has made for me to just be out of the house and away from the triggers! That alone makes it worth it!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
It seems that dealing with WS, especially in an EA, is like dealing with a BRAT. BRAT in the dictionary means "an unruly child". I think we all have parts of us that are still immature/bratty. Plan B is almost like a "time out" for WS, or maybe a self imposed "time out" so BS can have some peace and time to heal ourselves. I dont want to demean or infantilize
our WS, but I think GROWING UP would go a long way in rebuilding our marriages. In my own case I have a lot of growing up to do by standing up for myself without LB's. The selfindulgent/pleasure seeking of an A is incredibly childish/bratty. The continued contact/lying/cheating, is like juvenile delinquency. This triggers my habit of major LB's bigtime.<hr /></blockquote>Right again. No matter what we call it, growing up, facing reality, etc. It's all the same...it is selfish behavior that pretty much ignores anyone else's needs.
Plan B does get you away from that, and allows for more clear boundaries to be drawn. "I will be willing to discuss our future WHEN you do x,y,z"

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
In my own case, PLan B would probably be viewed by H as some sort of threat or manipulation/game playing/controlling. In reality I would have NO expectations of any specific result, only a need to take care of ME and give him a chance to make some decisions.<hr /></blockquote>I think that in EVERY case Plan B has some or all of these effects on the WS. Can't be helped. They will either get it, or they won't. In the meantime, you take care of YOU, and prepare to move on if necessary. With the added benefit that you've removed your need fulfillment to the WS.

Thanks for dropping in, R! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
...2 plumbers and $700 later ... we abandoned the movie date.

Today I am grateful for hot water.<hr /></blockquote>Yowch! Hate that. I had one like that 2 years ago, August in Houston, we had about 12 people staying with us for my niece's wedding, and the AC went out! The day of the wedding! So we were all getting dressed, into our tuxes in about 85 degrees inside the house! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Spacey ... I don't think it is even possible for YOU to act so detached from your WW that she will think you do not love her. Your love for her oozes from your eyes (I'm sure of this).<hr /></blockquote>Guilty as charged. I wish it weren't so easy to read my face. I wonder if SHE is still able to do it without reading the wrong thing...

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Way to go .... the spending 11 hours doing her a personal favor, and your parting truth shared with her was NOT a LB ... but a boundary.

Thumbs UP !!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Thanks. It did feel good. Both to do this for her, as well as to let her know I won't always be there. Hope she gets it.

[ August 18, 2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Replaced~~~

No ... you do not sound mean or unemotional.

I think "BRAT" works as an accurate description... sometimes ... and other times I think spiritual anorexia works too.

...... and, I'm talkin' about MY OWN behavior when I use those terms! LOL!

I am the BRAT occasionally. I have been spiritually and ethically thirsty many times.

We are all doing the best we can, at any given moment. BS and WS alike. OM and OW too. Life is difficult. Choices are hard to make. Changes frighten us. We resist our own better instincts sometimes. We abandon hope and replace it with resentment. We cling to the familiar pain and cannot fathom life without that pain.

We are ALL doing the best we can, at any given moment. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to others.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Replaced:
Question for everybody,

Do I sound mean and cold, unemotional?

I think I do and I dont like it. I bet H doesnt like it either! Just one more habit I need to change?

Replaced<hr /></blockquote>I don't know why you say this...
But you should be watchful for your Love Bank...maybe it's getting too low?

I know I was feeling like the LBs were just barely below the surface when I started talking to Steve about it being enough of Plan A and time for B. He agreed.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Posted by Pepper;
We are all doing the best we can, at any given moment. BS and WS alike. OM and OW too. Life is difficult. Choices are hard to make. Changes frighten us. We resist our own better instincts sometimes. We abandon hope and replace it with resentment. We cling to the familiar pain and cannot fathom life without that pain.
<hr /></blockquote>This is an interesting statement. And very true, I'm afraid. As my W and I have gone thru this for 11 months, the 4 IC/MCs, hundreds of conversations...I'm convinced she associates ME with that "pain" of hers...like I'm inexorably linked to that...not only that, but, as you said, she cannot imagine life WITHOUT the pain. And I wonder if she will EVER be able to see life with me as something OTHER than the "pain"...I sometimes feel it's TOO ingrained, solidified and hardened: to a point of no return?

Hey!

Thanks for your feedback, Space -

I read further on in your thread - yes, I think the times when my H was away helped me realize I could live with living without him - that space helped me be stronger - gave me room to think straight and be better prepared when I next saw him.

I think plan B when you reach this point is a good idea, when you have reached your limit.

Hmmm- will have to get new glasses, I think - I wonder what a "girt' is - the "t" is nowhere near the "l" on my keyboard, but there you are - Freudian slip? Somewhere between "girl" and "git"? Hope I'm a girl. Checking now just to make sure! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LIR

Spacey .... the "pain" your wife feels does NOT center around you. It is HER pain .... the pain of who she is, the pain of her choices, the pain of her fence-sitting ....not what SPACE did, or did not do.

You are not her pain. She *is* her own pain. She can relieve herself of pain by her choices alone. She does not need to leave you, or to change you to change her pain. If she leaves you, her pain travels with her. If you change, her pain still travels with her.

When she differentiates herself from the fusion of marriage, her pain is her problem. When you differentiate yourself from the fusion of marriage, your pain is your problem.

Same as for WS-Woman ..... her pain does not lie in the lap of her H's faults ... but in her inability to make her personal changes.

Keep reading Passionate Marriage !

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I like what Replaced said about WDs being like brats and unruly children. There is this show on TV that I find facinating. It is about this child psychologist who goes to some parents' house and helps them deal with their unruly child. One of the things he does is when the child throws a tantrum or does not play well with a sibling, he takes him for a time out in the high chair or the crib. While he takes him there he does not look at the child and does not say anything to him. He just gently sets him down and leaves. The time out must be very short, one minute, after which he goes in and asks the child nicely: why are you here? before the child answers he tells him why and tells him he can come out if he changes his behaviour. If the kid cries again he puts him immediately back and leave for another minute and comes back and does the same thing until the kid gets it that the behaviour has to stop for him to get what he wants. It is amazing to see the kid start behaving every time.

I think it is the same with our WSs when we are in plan B. They have to be told in a non LBing way what they need to do to be with us and this has to be consistent. In the same way that the psychologist did not look at the child and did not say anything, we must not talk OR or fulfill WS's needs in any way until they are ready to demonstrate that they can behave in a acceptable way.

SC, you did very well telling your wife what she needed to do. You did it in a quiet, responsible way and I am sure it got her attention. Keep up the good work.

LIR: Hmmm- will have to get new glasses, I think - I wonder what a "girt' is - the "t" is nowhere near the "l" on my keyboard, but there you are - Freudian slip? Somewhere between "girl" and "git"? Hope I'm a girl. Checking now just to make sure! LOL

Oh, I got that part! I trust your "search" confirmed this! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
Spacey .... the "pain" your wife feels does NOT center around you. It is HER pain .... the pain of who she is, the pain of her choices, the pain of her fence-sitting ....not what SPACE did, or did not do.

You are not her pain. She *is* her own pain. She can relieve herself of pain by her choices alone. She does not need to leave you, or to change you to change her pain. If she leaves you, her pain travels with her. If you change, her pain still travels with her.

When she differentiates herself from the fusion of marriage, her pain is her problem. When you differentiate yourself from the fusion of marriage, your pain is your problem.

Same as for WS-Woman ..... her pain does not lie in the lap of her H's faults ... but in her inability to make her personal changes.

Keep reading Passionate Marriage !

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Pep; I KIND OF get this by now, I guess it's easier to "see it" in WS-Woman's case. The question is, perhaps, will my W ever "see it"?
As far as she's concerned the A is my fault, I drove her to it...and all the rest of that bull.

I'm reading, I still don't get the "differentiation" , but then again, I haven't gotten there yet. Very slow going, I can barely make myself concentrate on it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mapleleaf:
...I think it is the same with our WSs when we are in plan B. They have to be told in a non LBing way what they need to do to be with us and this has to be consistent. In the same way that the psychologist did not look at the child and did not say anything, we must not talk OR or fulfill WS's needs in any way until they are ready to demonstrate that they can behave in a acceptable way.

SC, you did very well telling your wife what she needed to do. You did it in a quiet, responsible way and I am sure it got her attention. Keep up the good work.<hr /></blockquote>I think it's agreat analogy, ML. Exactly the same thing.

I guess in my case, since I'm "between Plan A and Plan B" with elements of both right now, it feels a little confusing to me and surely to my W. ("OK he comes here, spends 11 hours fixing my pc, and THEN he says THAT!?!?! what's going on????") Once the letter is delivered, and the full impact of Plan B takes effect, things will be clear for both of us. The "rules" are set. It becomes crystal clear then.

Close Call! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I went home to pick up the twins, I'd comitted to going to get their school supplies, W offered me coffee so I sat down with her. Chatted about a few "house" things, nothing major. I reminded her of our apptmt with Steve tomorrow (felt I should since I've usually set them on Tuesdays and this week it was on Monday) so she says; "It turns out I won't be able to attend that; S has to go to court to get his ticket dismissed, and I have to go with him."
A minor panic started gripping me...I said to myself Oh, NO!!! now I'll have to wait ANOTHER full week before she talks to Steve! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> NOOOOOOO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I think I got a little flustered, and said "That's no good" to stall for time while I thought about it. I must have been a bit uncomfortable, as I stuggled to think!
So finally I said; "Tell you what; I'll take S to court, you take the appointment." and she said "Are you sure?, did you get a chance to talk with Steve last week?" and I said "Yes, I got a cancellation he had. So I don't really need to speak with him again as much as you." I regretted having said that as soon as I said it, but she didn't say anything, she didn't say she didn't, and appeared to agreee.
I started breathing easier, calmed down a bit. Then I said "That'll work then, you take the appointment, I'll take S. Maybe you can make it a bit shorter that the full hour, if Steve wants to talk to me. Just ask him. If he does, have him call me on my cell anytime. OK?" and she said "OK".

Wow, it's weird, I feel like things are going well, feeling confident, and then the possibility of having to wait another week to see what the deal with her is, whether she's going to have the talk or not, or we go to full Plan B, panicked me!!!

It shows us how very close to the edge we really are. Not nearly as in-control as we feel sometimes!
Glad I was able to "straighten" that one out!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm going to leave Steve a message anyway.

[ August 18, 2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Hey, I've got his 8:00 CST slot... Hope you don't have any before that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I want to talk to him before lunch <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JR, you'd better talk quickly, because ours is the 9AM Central! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hi- I've been reading your posts among others on this site..........I'm pretty new to all this and have mostly been just a silent observer. Anyway, I think you are handling things much better than I could have if I were in your situation! I know this probably doesn't have an answer, but I really want to know how much more time you are going to give your WW to make a decision. First to cheat and then to stall for time and put your life on hold because of it, it just seems so unfair. I hope I am not making you feel bad- please understand I am also dealing with a WS and I guess I am in a much more bitter stage. He is reluctant to do what I need to even consider getting back together and working through things, and I don't know if I trust myself to do Plan A. HOW do you not lose your cool? I get so ANGRY!!! It just seems like the WS get away with everything and we just suffer in silence, and on top of it we have to be nice and placating to them! I feel like I am condoning what he did/is doing.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I really do hope everything will get better for you- you deserve it!

Hey, Libbie6! Glad you came by! First of all, a big, big hug! This must be a hard time for you, and we're sorry you're going thru this.
Let me answer a few things for you, and I suggest you start a new thread with your story, where we can lal visit and help you. OK?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Libbie6:
Hi- I've been reading your posts among others on this site..........I'm pretty new to all this and have mostly been just a silent observer. Anyway, I think you are handling things much better than I could have if I were in your situation! <hr /></blockquote>You're probably right L6, but remember this; I've been at this for 11 MONTHS!!! That's a long time, and I've learned a lot. So don't be hard on yourself, you are feeling and doing what we ALL felt and did!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I know this probably doesn't have an answer, but I really want to know how much more time you are going to give your WW to make a decision. First to cheat and then to stall for time and put your life on hold because of it, it just seems so unfair.<hr /></blockquote>Well, that is a hard question to answer. And my answer is different from yours. We each have our limits, and our other issues and circumstances, and all of that put together determines what we do and for how long.
In my case, first, I didn't discover MB and other types of help for several months after DDay, so when I did, I thought it was only fair to me and my family to give it a good shot; and that meant learning enough to do a solid Plan A for about 6 months or so. During that time, I learned to hurt less, to be less emotional, and a whole lot of other things. And believe me, I have NOT learned all I should have, and I have NOT done all I could have. But that's what I did. And now, the circumstances were right to go to Plan B, and for a couple of weeks, this semi-Plan B, based on Steve Harley's suggestion, and my W's behavior.
Probably tomorrow we'll decide if full Plan B is necessary or if she shows more REAL signs of progress. After that, I'm thinking 3 months of Plan B, then I file for divorce; In Texas it takes at least 60 days for that to happen if it all uncontested and smooth, so that means another 2-3 months of Plan B...total of 6. That will mean I gave our M 1 1/2 years of hard work...if it works, great! if not, I know I did my best.
Now these plans WILL change. Things we have no idea about or have thought of WILL happen, it's always like that. So, the motto is: Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I hope I am not making you feel bad- please understand I am also dealing with a WS and I guess I am in a much more bitter stage. <hr /></blockquote>Not at all, on the contrary, I'm glad you asked. Sometimes we need to step back and take a look at what we're doing and question it. Review it. So thank you!

About the bitterness; it IS NORMAL! Your DDay was probably a short time ago, right? There will be bitterness and anger, and a whole lot of other nasty feelings before you start feeling better. But you will, I promise!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
He is reluctant to do what I need to even consider getting back together and working through things, and I don't know if I trust myself to do Plan A. HOW do you not lose your cool? I get so ANGRY!!! It just seems like the WS get away with everything and we just suffer in silence, and on top of it we have to be nice and placating to them! I feel like I am condoning what he did/is doing. <hr /></blockquote>It's not easy L6, it's not easy. The forst thing you will have to learn is that this is NOT about what HE does, it's about what YOU do; for you and for him. Yes, I know that sounds crazy and illogical, but trust me; that's the truth. (And just ask Pep or Orchid how long it took ME to get it!!! LOL!!! They almost gave up on me I was so stubborn!)
None of us are able to do a good Plan A from the starting gate. We all blow it, many, many times. That's OK, we just get up, dust ourselves off, wipe the mud from our faces, and start over.
And we DO loose our cool, I even loose it now, after all these months! But less than before!
Anger is the normal feeling to have right now. (You probably started with Denial, right? This can't be happening!) Anger will make way to Bargaining/Negotiating, Depression, and then Acceptance. Tha faster you can move through these stages, the faster you can be ready to actually do something really positive about it. (Don't worry, we'll help you thru these!).
And although it seems we're placating them and condoning their behavior, we will begin to establish boundaries which show them that we do not condone this. But for a little time, it will seem that way.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Anyway, sorry for the rant. I really do hope everything will get better for you- you deserve it! <hr /></blockquote>Thank you L6, I appreciate it!

Start your thread, tell us your story, give us some details, and we'll go from there, OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I guess we reach yet another milestone tomorrow; WW should speak with Steve at 9AM, and we'll see what she says about changing her mind about talking to me last week, and what she has in mind going forward. Perhaps her take on my fixing the pc and what I said...

I Imagine we'll be moving into full Plan B, but who knows? Maybe not...

SC,

I wish your WW come around and see what a loving husband your are to her. How can she not?? Plan-B is a real B#&$*! After 4 months of separation myself, another night of feeling alone, I just broke down and cried. I guess its a process I have to get through...

Take care.

Steve just called me.

He just had a few minutes, but wanted to get me up to date on what's going on.
My W told him she had NOT spoken to me as she'd promised him she'd do. Why? No real reason, the ususl run-around, not ready, too soon, not sure....

So he hit her hard. Treated her like a "hostile witness" (his words). Told her in no uncertain terms, that unless she acts, "this is not going to work". That she cannot wait for the "feeling" to come before she acts, it will be too late. That just like when you exercise, you have to exercise to receive the benefits; energy, weight loss, stength. Likewise with this process of falling in love again. You must take the ateps FIRST, the feelings will come from taking the steps, doing the work. If she waits for the feelings, it will be too late.

So I asked him; "Is this real? I mean is she going to do this because she is starting to get it, or because you are pressuring her, or because she's afraid of losing me, or what?" and he answered; "Oh, it's real. See, I'm the only one asking her, demanding that she answer the tough questions. Forcing her to take a look at herself in ways she hasn't dared to before." so I insisted "Steve, but is it real? do you feel that she is getting it or is she promising to do this because she's scared, because I left, because of fear? Is it real in the sense that she really wants this, or is it another stall tactic, is it just to buy more time?" I mean I don't want a false recovery, a temporary salve to the wound. I would rather go to Plan B, wait, whatever, but I don't want a fake recovery to bring me home only to have to reach the stage I had to reach before so I can leave again! That would be devastating!

So he went on; "SC, we have a window of opportunity here. She has lost contact with the OM, that has hurt, that has made her evaluate, look at her life, question some long-held beliefs, 'truths'. This is our opportunity to get her to open up, to start working on your love...even if later on she again has the opportunity to visit the OM, by then it'll be too late for that. She'll be in love with you again. This is all still to a great extent related to her privacy/individuality thing, but she is starting to see the damage that has done to her life, to your marriage. I have made her look at herself in ways she has not looked before, to face the harsh reality. Granted we're not fully there yet, but it has started. It IS real."

Then he asked me; "SC, your Plan B letter is ready, right?" "Right" I said. "OK, so here's what we're going to do. She has promised to do this by Thursday night. That's the deadline I gave her. Can you make it till Friday?" and I said yes. "OK, so make an appointment to speak with me on Friday. If she goes through with it, we'll see what she said, and go from there. If she doesn't go through with it, if she backs out again, then we press on with a full Plan B. She knows this is one of her last chances. I told her that. And she's seeing it now."

So there we are. She is starting to see the light? Maybe. But at least I know she is not going with what her Psychologist has been saying, she's following what Steve is asking. She knows she's not been honest with her IC, and she knows Steve knows the truth. She may be reaching the point where she knows she can no longer run from herself. I hope so.

What has caused this? Who knows? the loss of contact with the OM, Steve's hard questions, my leaving, time, my apparent "ready to move on" act, remorse, who knows? And really, who cares? the point is it looks like something is working. Perhaps one day we'll know what it was that caused it, perhaps not.

I do know that my father called her last night. I don't what he said, but I know he loves her and cares for her very much. And if anything, he's even kinder and more understanding than I am. To the point that even if we divorced, he'd probably still help her. As he has continued to fully support my mother even though he's remarried and they divorced in 1979. Maybe he said something key...?

I have my doubts. Somehow I still believe that full Plan B has it's "educational" purposes and value, that perhaps Plan B is a good thing in terms of a lifelong lesson worth learning. But will I want to do it even if we don't need it? probably not.

So the waiting game continues, this time with a hard deadline...last chance...your thoughts?

I like that he didn't let her get away with "I'm not ready, I'm not sure, let's wait and see". That's a game that can go on forever.

I like what Pepperband wrote on JR's thread...you were given mention there so I hope you read it.

You gotta let her get unbalance and you HAVE to let her fall. Kind of sounds like your Dad has a hard time letting people fall too.....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hope4future:
I like that he didn't let her get away with "I'm not ready, I'm not sure, let's wait and see". That's a game that can go on forever.

I like what Pepperband wrote on JR's thread...you were given mention there so I hope you read it.

You gotta let her get unbalance and you HAVE to let her fall. Kind of sounds like your Dad has a hard time letting people fall too.....<hr /></blockquote>Steve is VERY, VERY good. He has held her in a way the other 3 Cs couldn't. And what's even more amazing, is that he's really pretty hard on her!

My dad; few times has the world seen a man like that. I have no hope of accomplishing or becoming half the man he is. An inspiration and a pillar of my life.

Wow, SC:

I have to admit I'm impressed! I guess I better get that homework done and get another session with Steve set up. If anyone can get my W interested in talking to them, Steve must be it.

I am having a hard time not being apathetic right now. I've done well at not LBing, not talking about R issues AT ALL since I came back home, but the result is that I'm getting more and more to where I feel like I don't care all that much. And a big part of that feeling is due to knowing that my W has "privacy issues" that may be as deeply ingrained as your own W's are. I REALLY don't want to be dealing with this in another 5 months, when my D-day anniversary rolls around. Really, I don't.

SC:

And a bit about the "differentiation" stuff. I'd actually recommend you skip to that chapter, read it, then start the book over. I got a lot out of that. Best stuff I've read about being an individual in a M from ANYWHERE. There's a lot to it, but a couple of things have stood out in my mind, because of my sitch:
1). Something JL said somewhere recently, to the effect of "true individuals have the least trouble committing to another person in a M". Those weren't his exact words (the exact words were probably much more eloquent), but the gist is that individuality is NOT stifled by being in a committed R. It's allowed to blossom, due to the support and intimacy.
2). WS's often say that their OP has "brought out the best in them". This isn't the case. Like when I said in my plan B draft "vent" to my W: "YOU made yourself the scientist you are today, not ME, not Rat Meat." It's this insecurity that leads people to have As and justify them with nonsense statements like the above. One needs to complete one's self, love one's self, and take pride in their own accomplishments. Only then can we truly have a fulfilling M relationship by sharing ourselves with our S.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
Wow, SC:

I have to admit I'm impressed! I guess I better get that homework done and get another session with Steve set up. If anyone can get my W interested in talking to them, Steve must be it.<hr /></blockquote>I have to admit I'm a little incredulous myself. I FULLY expected the "old" WW with her self-righteous indignation to show up and tell Steve to shove it, that she was NOT going to get pushed around by, of all THINGS, 2 men!!! Or some such venomous invective.

Especially since she's gotten herself one of these "well-meaning therapists" (in our friend's sister) who is clueless and still recites the "what do you need to do to reach what you want, without regard for your M or those around you"

As it is, I'm very, very skeptical of this actually being a major breakthrough. More like "how little do I have to give up to get him home?" or something like that. We'll see. I'm going to figure out how to manage that so I can verify it's authenticity.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I am having a hard time not being apathetic right now. I've done well at not LBing, not talking about R issues AT ALL since I came back home, but the result is that I'm getting more and more to where I feel like I don't care all that much.<hr /></blockquote>2L; I strongly suspect this feeling is self-protection more than real apathy. Look in your heart...you DO love her...I know it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
And a big part of that feeling is due to knowing that my W has "privacy issues" that may be as deeply ingrained as your own W's are. I REALLY don't want to be dealing with this in another 5 months, when my D-day anniversary rolls around. Really, I don't. <hr /></blockquote>I know what you mean. This privacy thing's gotta go sometime...and soon! And I'M not as concerned about dealing with it 5 months down the road as I am of having it rear it's ugly head 5 YEARS down the road! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

About Passionate Marriage, I think I'll follow your advice and read Diffenentiation first. It's interesting; a lot of that is going to be very valuable for my W, if she ever chooses to read it.
I wonder what Steve thinks of Passionate Marriage. I'll bet he likes it!

Thanks 2L! Glad to have you around!

[ August 19, 2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

Since Steve really didn't give me much guidance in terms of handling the "talk" my W is supposed to have with me, I'd like to outline my thoughts and expectations, see what everyone thinks. I'm sure I'll get good feedback.

I guess the first thing I'll say is that I don't expect much. At least in the first conversation, I expect she'll be "feeling me out" to make sure that I'm not going to go ballistic on her, maybe putting some stuff out there to see how/if it sticks, and maybe, if I'm lucky, she might venture into some of the things she is willing/going to do.

In general, my strategy is just to listen, stay calm and see where she's going with this. I have no idea if she interprets Steve's "Radical Honesty and Evidence" the same way Steve and I do...maybe, maybe not. Probably not!

And before we get into some specific actions, perhaps it is best to try to gauge her mood, willingness, understanding, of what this is and how to go about trying to fix it. I was thinking of watching for things like:

Remorse
Comittment to M
Desire to learn
Acceptance of responsibility
Belief in our future
What made her decide to...do whatever it is she's trying to do!
Am I missing some here?

I was also thinking that it will probably take a "few" talks before I should be willing to go home...
at least two. That will make it a process she would have to work through. I'm sure she's not just going to offer up the "key" items I'd listed as needed to go home...so I can say she's doing good, I'm proud and happy, and I'm going to think about it and get back to her...maybe then start talking about some "deliverables" she'd need to make. I don't know, but I guess it could go something like that?

These are the ones I'd written before:
Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
· Demonstrated End of R with OM
· Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to Radical Honesty
· Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
· Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
· OM knows it's over and rebuilding M - NC letter
· OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
· Other Characters know it’s over / NC
· Letter to Warden ending Communications
· Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
· Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
· Tell me the real story
· Answer my questions about this
· Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

I mean there are a lot of things; a lot of the "story" has now been proven not to be true or complete, but that would probably come later. I don't really care about that right now. I DO care about an understanding that the time to answer questions WILL come.

And I have other fears. What if she tells me these 2 As I'm aware of were only the first and last and that there were x number of others in between....it's HAS been nearly 15 years since the first one...what then? Can I handle that? Would she risk saying it even if it were true? Scary stuff, this!

The key thing for me will be to gauge if this is "REAL". Is she being honest, has she begun to "see the light", what is she prepared to give up, how far is she willing to go, to "expose" herself...or is this just one more "card" in her stalling arsenal she's playing...that maybe is why I'd like to make it "a process" so she has the opportunity to show some consistent behavior over x number of days, weeks, meetings...your thoughts? Thanks!!!

[ August 19, 2002, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

SC, two things:

1) About what made her decide to do what she is going to do, she may not know. There is lots of confusion for a WS - emotions and thoughts conflict with themselves and each other. I am still not sure my wife knows, 10 mos later, but the recovery is real.

2) About the possibility of other A's: ironically, if she tells you, this is really great, because it is proof she is committe to Radical Honesty, AND that she trusts you enough to be honest. If it happens, try to hold on to those truths through the pain, and keep from letting your anger overwhelm you. Embrace the pain. Don't ignore the anger, but don't let it control you, either.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by johnh39:
SC, two things:

1) About what made her decide to do what she is going to do, she may not know. There is lots of confusion for a WS - emotions and thoughts conflict with themselves and each other. I am still not sure my wife knows, 10 mos later, but the recovery is real.

2) About the possibility of other A's: ironically, if she tells you, this is really great, because it is proof she is committe to Radical Honesty, AND that she trusts you enough to be honest. If it happens, try to hold on to those truths through the pain, and keep from letting your anger overwhelm you. Embrace the pain. Don't ignore the anger, but don't let it control you, either.<hr /></blockquote>Good insight, John; I'd say you are right on both counts. Thanks!

How you doin' SpaceMonkey?

This is some weird stuff .... life does not hand us the script we were hoping for, that's for sure.

Try to relax .... the energy of love and healing can flow through you if you relax.

(there she is again ... The DaliPepper) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thank you DaliPepper! I DO love you! Your suggested reading is challenging, your esoteric and spiritual guidance is invaluable, and your humor is unequalled! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

However, I would like feedback on my thoughts about handling this very squirmy and slippery WS...lest she get away once again! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

???SpaceMonkey????

[ August 19, 2002, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]

SC,

just skimming & wanted you to know that you were thought about it.

Hoping you won't be celebrating that anv in Plan B.

"I don't expect much."

"listen" ... "stay calm" ... "see where she's going"

These are your words of wisdom ... I think you have come such a long way, and you have learned to trust yourself.

It will be OK ... but may not be OK on your timetable ... and you are OK with that .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your last post was right on target and I did not feel a need to nag you at all.

"SpaceMonkey" because you are so full of playful antics.... and because I like the way it looks when it's written.

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

[ August 19, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sing:
SC,

just skimming & wanted you to know that you were thought about it.

Hoping you won't be celebrating that anv in Plan B.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks, Sing. Appreciate the visit.

The Anniv; not even an acknowledgement? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
It will be OK ... but may not be OK on your timetable ... and you are OK with that .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Meaning.....???

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
"SpaceMonkey" because you are so full of playful antics.... and because I like the way it looks when it's written.<hr /></blockquote>Oh. OK then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(The way it looks written!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

SC-

Steve does seem awesome. I especially liked his analogy of building muscles (taking work at first and seeing results later). He always uses good analogies with me as well. I liked the point he was making here and was one I discussed with my W at the start of her A (based on reading Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw.) He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake."

Anyway, I concur with your ideas on if/when your W speaks with you.

Definately listen. If you feel like blowing up, instead use good listening skills.

I notice that you want to see if it is "real" and you are very concerned about whether this is another attempt to buy time/get you home w/o really meaning what she says/agree to commit to M, etc.

Becareful at interpretting if she is "real" or not. While I'm not saying you can or cannot tell, I am challenging you to challenge yourself/your own judgements. Keep in mind that even though you "are not expecting much" you still would prefer to have your M back and not a D. This can/will? be an emotional discussion which can affect judgement. And your W may seem "real" and you may be wrong and vice versa, or may seem and be "real" at that point in time and later change or vice versa.

I know I'm just stating the obvious that there are different possibilities. Consider SH's insight after this of whether it is "real" before full blown Plan B.

I have been considering Plan B myself but I want to do a good Plan A for myself.

On a related note, I have made an obversation and was wondering if this seems true.
It seems that those M's that start recovery (or at least the WS coming back to the BS) due to Plan B (or even Plan A for that matter) have two possibilities:

1. the WS realizes BS may be lost forever and tries to win BS back - plan A on BS by WS (I like this one)

or

2. the A dies, WS feels no love but by default / guilt? / logic ? goes back to M & has a rough recovery with depression withdrawal from OP/A etc. (like the "soul mates" affair described in SAA.)

sorry to ramble, just thought I'd pipe in for a bit since I haven't in awhile but have been reading!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by HAVE_2_B_PaTiEnT:
SC,

I wish your WW come around and see what a loving husband your are to her. How can she not?? Plan-B is a real B#&$*! After 4 months of separation myself, another night of feeling alone, I just broke down and cried. I guess its a process I have to get through...

Take care.<hr /></blockquote>H2BP;
I'm sorry, I must have flown thru this...never saw it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thank you for your thoughts...are u doing OK? Hang in there, and be strong! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aanast2:
SC-

Steve does seem awesome. I especially liked his analogy of building muscles (taking work at first and seeing results later). He always uses good analogies with me as well. <hr /></blockquote>Excellent analogy, and one easily understood by anyone. True too!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I liked the point he was making here and was one I discussed with my W at the start of her A (based on reading Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw.) He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake."<hr /></blockquote>I think the Harley's subscribe to this theory as well. One of the things Steve said to us about going to the MB Weekend was precisely this.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I notice that you want to see if it is "real" and you are very concerned about whether this is another attempt to buy time/get you home w/o really meaning what she says/agree to commit to M, etc.

Becareful at interpretting if she is "real" or not. While I'm not saying you can or cannot tell, I am challenging you to challenge yourself/your own judgements. Keep in mind that even though you "are not expecting much" you still would prefer to have your M back and not a D. This can/will? be an emotional discussion which can affect judgement. And your W may seem "real" and you may be wrong and vice versa, or may seem and be "real" at that point in time and later change or vice versa.<hr /></blockquote>I think these are valid points, and I will ponder them. Naturally I cannot pretend to be able to read her 100% (Hello!!! Missed the A for over a year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )
Nonetheless, I am in absolutely NO hurry to run home, and I'm willing to make her jump through some hoops first. This can only be positive if I'm pretty comfortable about her real intentions/wishes before heading back home. Another DDay would just be THE END.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I know I'm just stating the obvious that there are different possibilities. Consider SH's insight after this of whether it is "real" before full blown Plan B.<hr /></blockquote>No question. I trust Steve and he hasn't failed me. His "feel" for things is impeccable.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
On a related note, I have made an obversation and was wondering if this seems true.
It seems that those M's that start recovery (or at least the WS coming back to the BS) due to Plan B (or even Plan A for that matter) have two possibilities:

1. the WS realizes BS may be lost forever and tries to win BS back - plan A on BS by WS (I like this one)

or

2. the A dies, WS feels no love but by default / guilt? / logic ? goes back to M & has a rough recovery with depression withdrawal from OP/A etc. (like the "soul mates" affair described in SAA.)<hr /></blockquote>If I were to take a guess, I'd say it's a 1:10 ratio of #1 to #2, maybe even more. But yes, those are the two possibilities!

Cadet,

Spacemonkey? Cute handle. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Steve's meeting with your W? Great. See others can do things that you can't. So utilize your supporters and let them work for you. Let them carry some of your weight. You don't have to fix it all yourself. Neither do you have to carry all the weight yourself.

Steve laid it on the line. Now he is asking for your patience but you see light at the end of the waiting tunnel. This is good. It is iffy and can go either way but at least it is progress.

View this in the positve and proper prespective but prepare yourself for the worst outcome. Know that whatever plan you execute it is because you are doing it for the 'right' reasons.

Cadet, I am proud of you. I don't get to post to you too much anymore, you are in good hands and have been a great help to others. Sometimes it is easier to see when it is not so close to our heart. ya know?!?!?!?

take care,
L.

I agree with Orchid.

You have been a great help to others. Reading your posts, your struggles, your desire to do the right thing, bouncing ideas off others, thinking, preparing, planning, trying, and more have been very inspiring to me.

I just hope that when the time comes I will be as strong to make the right choice for my marriage and/or me.

Thanks.

aanast2:

" He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake.""

Wayward Spousal Units (WSUs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) think these methods are fake and their love for their OPs are real because of the fog they're in. My W had one of her "thoughtful moments" a few months back when she said to me "You don't choose who you fall in love with, it just happens" and I quickly replied "Love is very much a choice. We can choose to love each other. You are infatuated with Rat Meat. That isn't real love. It can't last." She didn't reply, but she didn't change the subject either. Changing the subject is a sign of her avoiding thinking about something, like disagreeing and arguing with me. I KNOW she didn't expect an insightful reply from me at that point. She certainly wasn't ready for such a quick reply. I carved a couple of notches in my MB 2x4 on that occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ August 20, 2002, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]

So on a resume under qualifications, would that read "dirt eating notch carver" or "notch carving dirt eater" ? I like the way the second one sounds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Meaning ....

Things will work out
Space cannot control when that happends
Space makes peace with the timetable not being in his control,

That is all.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid:
Cadet,
Steve's meeting with your W? Great. See others can do things that you can't. So utilize your supporters and let them work for you. Let them carry some of your weight. You don't have to fix it all yourself. Neither do you have to carry all the weight yourself.<hr /></blockquote>I've learned to do this more and more. Steve has been a godsend, and letting "destiny" (or whatever it's called) take it's course has also helped. Trying to "force" it does not work.

I am under-expecting, and I will be patient. I can do that now. It's in her hands.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Cadet, I am proud of you. I don't get to post to you too much anymore, you are in good hands and have been a great help to others. Sometimes it is easier to see when it is not so close to our heart. ya know?!?!?!?

take care,
L. <hr /></blockquote>Thanks, O. I was thinking about you yesterday...hadn't seen you here in a while...I knew why...missed you but knew the reason was the most noble. You have done more than your part for me, and I'm glad you think I'm doing my part for others.

SC- Glad things are progressing nicely.. wish I had the dollars for all that time with Steve... looks like it is well worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think your wife is coming around, and you are doing quite well on your part. All we can control is ourselves in this mess, and you are doing very very well. I wish I could capture some of the patience. Well they , the ws that is, kind of force us to become more than patient...

Maybe even accepting and giving up on them? That is what I feel...

I have always thought your wife would come around, maybe push coming to shove is what it takes. She will be crazy not to show some real commitment to you and stop the crazy prison infatuation.

Take care, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Honey Darlin'! long time no see! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Honey:
SC- Glad things are progressing nicely.. wish I had the dollars for all that time with Steve... looks like it is well worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>It has been a serious sacrifice financially, but the way I see it is that losing my M would be much more costly, and not only financially...

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
Maybe even accepting and giving up on them? That is what I feel... <hr /></blockquote>Honey...maybe you should think of adopting these wise words yourself....worked for me!

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I have always thought your wife would come around, maybe push coming to shove is what it takes. She will be crazy not to show some real commitment to you and stop the crazy prison infatuation.

Take care, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>Actually, I think it was more effective to stop pushing and shoving!

Hi Spacecase,

I was thinking ( as I read suggestions that you should try to listen really well) that you don't need to give your side in this upcomming discussion. You can just listen and go "home" and think about it. If she askes you what you think, you can just say " I don't know what I am going to do, ( or say, or think) and I am going to do some thinking and get back to you."

In other words, just spend the whole discussion listening. Often we don't listen as well as we should because we are trying to figure out what to say in return. If you know up front that you are not going to say anything ( except to try and draw her out) you may do a better job. The first time she asks for your thoughts you can just say something like above and tell her this is her time to talk, and you will come back in a few days and give your side.

If you just want to be done with it you may not like this idea, but if you are patient ( ha, ha don't you hate it?) it may work better.

You could still use some pretty strong questions to draw her out - " so you think by keeping secrets from me our marriage will be better and stronger?"

I don't want to see you unload on her again like you did a few weeks ago if you get frustrated with her answers. Perhaps you have progressed to the point where you won't anyway.

SS

[ August 20, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

SS;

Your input is exactly right on. My greatest fear, and probably my greatest failing all along, has been that I almost can't contain myself when she's babbling or lying.

But your suggested approach sounds very good, I was thinking myself what I could do to JUST LISTEN...because I KNOW that is what I need to do now.

Maybe if at the start I tell her "This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, think about it, and then come back and tell you what I think", as you suggest, that might help.

I know that my inpatience and reactions have been my worst enemies ALL along. I know it! The frustration and anger are so close to the surface, that I just have not been able to control it.

I cannot let that happen this time. I just can't! I'm working on this. Thanks for the idea, it's a very good one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Maybe if at the start I tell her "This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, think about it, and then come back and tell you what I think", as you suggest, that might help. <hr /></blockquote>SC,

Think about the other side of the coin here....

I may be wrong, but since there is a "privacy" thing going on here, she could take this the wrong way.

She may think that you are setting her up to say something she shouldn't, or...to misinterpret something she says. In other words, she may say to herself, " He's waiting to pounce on me for something I say". Might not be best to make it obvious.

Just another thought, IMHO.

HCII

Fair enough; what about this:

"This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, and ask questions if I'd like you to clarify something, OK?"

Then, at the end, I can tell her that I'm not sure what I want to do, that I'll think about it and get back to her...

Hey Spaceguy on the Southside...

I like it Space! I think it will make here feel safer. Besides if you ask a few clarifying questions here and there, it will really convey that you are listening!

The Brat on the Nortside.

h4f:

"So on a resume under qualifications, would that read "dirt eating notch carver" or "notch carving dirt eater" ? I like the way the second one sounds. "

How about "Mud-sniffing, notch carving, simple savior of America's destiny!" Okay, I ripped the savior stuff off Pat Paulsen. But the mud-smelling stuff I am QUALIFIED to do! Seriously, 20 years ago I worked as a "Mud logger" in the oil fields of San Joaquin Valley. We were often called "mud-sniffers" or "mud-smellers". You get to look up what that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC, Congratulations!!!!

I told you good things happen to people like you. And you know what? this is the only the beginning. First of all, you will be busy and will have less time to spend on this BB and you will be more and more confident. What woman would resist: handsome, smart, successful and can pull off an Hawaian shirt. WOW!

Well 2long...that would be better than a crotch sniffing mud carver <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ROTFLMAO!!

h4f:

"Well 2long...that would be better than a crotch sniffing mud carver
ROTFLMAO!!"

Better?

... um... can't say ANYTHING that came to mind just now!

Hi Space ~

Geez, your threads get so long, I can never keep up with whats going on. I end up hunting through page after page trying to figure out what happened last!

I just wanted to voice my opinion about the whole development of an A and the BS emotional state.

I think the time that it takes a WS to run the gamut of the whole affair saga is about the SAME length of time that it takes a BS to pretty much throw up their hands in acceptance and start moving on.

I think you and your wife's emotional processing of this whole scenario has kinda dovetailed into each other. I think thats what happened for me too. About the time I was emotionally where you are headed, my H changed his mind and wanted to come home. I don't think divorcing him 6 months before would have brought us into recovery sooner. Which is WHY I was so vague with YOU some months ago when you asked me what it was that got my H to come home.

Yes, I was moving on, and he didn't want to lose me so it forced him to shape up. BUT he was in an emotional place where that decision was possible. 6-9 months earlier, my filing for divorce wouldn't have brought him home.

I reached a spot emotionally that I needed, as did he.

And I get a sense that a similar thing is happening to you also. I think with alot of folks here who had to live with the affair after D day.

This stuff just takes time and personal growth doesn't happen easily or quickly! I have to say that you have grown ALOT in the months that you have been here.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mapleleaf:
SC, Congratulations!!!!

I told you good things happen to people like you. And you know what? this is the only the beginning. First of all, you will be busy and will have less time to spend on this BB and you will be more and more confident. What woman would resist: handsome, smart, successful and can pull off an Hawaian shirt. WOW!<hr /></blockquote>And don't forget; can whip up a mean barbeque, and even pull off a line or two of French! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You are FAR too kind, ML, and I thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BrambleRose:
Hi Space ~

Geez, your threads get so long, I can never keep up with whats going on. I end up hunting through page after page trying to figure out what happened last!<hr /></blockquote>For some reason my threads tend to become the "joke of the hour" threads, which I throughly enjoy, but they do become very hard to read! And I'm so happy to see others post and get feedback here, that they tend to go off in numerous directions. But that's OK! LOL!!! (I will start a new one when my WW decides to have the chat...or not!)

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I just wanted to voice my opinion about the whole development of an A and the BS emotional state.

I think the time that it takes a WS to run the gamut of the whole affair saga is about the SAME length of time that it takes a BS to pretty much throw up their hands in acceptance and start moving on.

I think you and your wife's emotional processing of this whole scenario has kinda dovetailed into each other. I think thats what happened for me too. About the time I was emotionally where you are headed, my H changed his mind and wanted to come home. I don't think divorcing him 6 months before would have brought us into recovery sooner. Which is WHY I was so vague with YOU some months ago when you asked me what it was that got my H to come home.

Yes, I was moving on, and he didn't want to lose me so it forced him to shape up. BUT he was in an emotional place where that decision was possible. 6-9 months earlier, my filing for divorce wouldn't have brought him home.

I reached a spot emotionally that I needed, as did he.

And I get a sense that a similar thing is happening to you also. I think with alot of folks here who had to live with the affair after D day.

This stuff just takes time and personal growth doesn't happen easily or quickly! I have to say that you have grown ALOT in the months that you have been here. <hr /></blockquote>I remember that very, very well. And I remember how perplexed that comment left me then. I'm glad you brought it up again, because now I understand it, although I certainly can't (or haven't tried to) verbalize it as you just have.

I wonder if we'll ever be able to explain this to a "newbie" in a way that they can understand. If we did, it would help reduce a lot of pain and frustration.

Thanks, BR. You are and have been a most influential and valuable "teacher" for me. I thank you. With sincerity, I thank you.

Spacecase, its so hard to keep up with you!! We really need to get that fogsucker fixed, I think there's a few OPs stuck in the suction pipe that need be blown out into outer space with the aliens that abducted our spouses.

But seriously, keep the strength up, its weird how we have to worry about a conversation with our own spouse but our marriages are on the line.

Spacecase,

Hello, I have been somewhat intimidated about posting any suggestions on your thread as you always seem to be reading something new etc.

I just wanted to say that, at the very least, it has to give you some measure of comfort knowing how much you have invested in making this work.

Sometimes, even the most together, strong people, have a hard time seeing when they are giving it an excellent shot and doing a great job.

I hope you realize, it is true when people tell you what an inspiration you are to all of us that keep up with your thread.

Steve is amazing and if anyone can get through to ww it is him. I always feel happy when I get off the phone after one of our sessions.

Good luck and thanks for being such a sharing, giving person.
Hugs,
Layli

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by going_crazy:
We really need to get that fogsucker fixed, I think there's a few OPs stuck in the suction pipe that need be blown out into outer space with the aliens that abducted our spouses.
<hr /></blockquote>Oh, what a beautiful image! I am seeing that "torpedo tube" they have in Star Trek (or is it something else...help me here, 2L! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) that they use to fire dead guys out into space...what a Beeoooooootiful sight! Off you go Mr. OP! Say hello to "Uranus" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> for me as you fly by! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ROFLMAO!!!

Serious post now;

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by going_crazy:
But seriously, keep the strength up, its weird how we have to worry about a conversation with our own spouse but our marriages are on the line.<hr /></blockquote>I'm very serious about this. Seriously, we have to take a serious look at the planning for these serious conversations, because seriously, these WSs are a serious problem. They seriously put us through some serious stuff, and we take a serious risk when we want to have a serious conversation about serious stuff, because we're on seriously unknown territory, and anything we may seriously say might be taken seriously wrong and land us in a serious pile of...or even worse, we may seriously delay a serious recovery or seriously send them scurrying back to the OP. I'm Serious! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by layli:
Spacecase,
Hello, I have been somewhat intimidated about posting any suggestions on your thread as you always seem to be reading something new etc.<hr /></blockquote>Hey Layli! Long time no see!
How could I EVER be intimidating? I'm just a nice guy with an obsession for reading and learning. So much so that Pep, (or was it Orchid?), said "stop reading. this isn't for reading, it's for doing!" or something like that. Yeah, right! Like I'm going to learn to control my facial expressions all by myself! I get nervous tics (see, I spelled it right this time!) just thinking about it! LOL!!!

Serious stuff below:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I just wanted to say that, at the very least, it has to give you some measure of comfort knowing how much you have invested in making this work.

Sometimes, even the most together, strong people, have a hard time seeing when they are giving it an excellent shot and doing a great job.<hr /></blockquote>Truth be told, I don't really "feel" like I'm in control, but I do realize that my "senses" have improved insofar as realtionships and the dynamics of these situations are concerned. So yes, definitely that makes me feel more secure. On the other hand, sometimes I just lose it...so, who knows?

But I do feel like I've given it my best effort, and I intend to go through with it to the end with as much enthusiasm and energy. I love her, I love my family, I love how good it could be with all I've learned, and I'm not going to give up very easily.

 <blockquote>quote:<hr />
I hope you realize, it is true when people tell you what an inspiration you are to all of us that keep up with your thread.<hr /></blockquote>It makes me happy to hear this, as my greatest pleasure and vocation is to share and to teach. Perhaps that's why I share it all. I have no shame or compunction in sharing feelings, successes and failures, as I believe someone may find it helpful.

quote---------------------------------------------
It makes me happy to hear this, as my greatest pleasure and vocation is to share and to teach. Perhaps that's why I share it all. I have no shame or compunction in sharing feelings, successes and failures, as I believe someone may find it helpful.
quote---------------------------------------------

I agree. Maybe that is yet another reason why I'm a teacher. Have you considered the profession?

Anyway, I had a request for you SC (and anyone else here), I'd love your insight/input on my situation. I know you've commented in the past but would like to hear your thoughts currently (as your p.o.v. may have also changed in the last few months.) My thread is at Plan A/B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001238;p=1

If you wouldn't mind reading it whenever you get a chance (no rush) and giving your 2 cents, I'd appreciate it.

I'm at the point that I could continue Plan A or go to Plan B and either way would be ok for me for some time. I just want to do what is best for my M (and me). Some on my thread have made good points for Plan B, but I'm leaning on a longer Plan A (party because of my last conversation with S.H.)

Thanks (sorry to threadjack!)

spacecase…

i’ve been away since the first of this month…spent two weeks at home in the village… it’s taken me the last three days to catch up on your threads…

as we say at home…na wa o!!!

words fail me… you are in my thoughs…

oaktown…

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by oaktown:
spacecase…

i’ve been away since the first of this month…spent two weeks at home in the village… it’s taken me the last three days to catch up on your threads…

as we say at home…na wa o!!!

words fail me… you are in my thoughs…

oaktown…<hr /></blockquote>I don't know what to say...3 days to catch up on my threads? This is too much...I appreciate the interest and hope this has been of value...

I guess that's a sure sign that I must start a new thread! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

"na wa o!!!" means...?

spacecase…

i wish i could put into words the true value of your threads… your voice in particular has given me insight into the thoughts and feelings of the betrayed husband… that which i could not hear/learn from my husband has comes to me through my empathy with/for you… i can not thank you enough…

“na wa o!!!” literally means it is wonder full… it’s a phrase we use at home when circumstances or situations are so overwhelming that we know not what to think…

oaktown…