Thinking about today, everything that happened, what didn't happen, made me realize a few things.

I was able to spend almost a whole day with my W and not break down at all. During the day, as we watched TV (while working on the pc) there were dozens of triggers; it is amazing when we care to think about it how almost every film has some sort of reference to infidelity, whether it's marital infidelity or betrayal of a friendship, or whatever it is. In any case, we were both there, a lot of these came and went, and I stayed calm and collected, just did my thing.

Several times during the day, she'd say thank you for what I was doing, or comment what a pain this was to do, tell me she's sorry I had to spend my day doing this, thank you. A couple of times she came up, touched my shoulder or back, and I didn't react once.

Don't know if it mean much, but I do feel much stronger and able to remain detached and be OK. I even wonder if showing TOO much detachment might not send the wrong signal; like I've given up on us, or given up on being able to rebuild.

But for now, it seems to be having some impact on her, and it sure is making me feel better and stonger.

SC:

Judging from the times you posted, you're not getting enough sleep!

I don't watch much TV, unless it's about fixing old houses or furniture or some such. Too many triggers is right. Last night, my W and I watched "Six ft. under" which of course is full of R stuff. After it was over, my W started crying and asked "will our world really ever get better?" I wasn't sure whether she was asking about US, or the planet. So I said ILY and that "we're going to be okay." She held me pretty tight for a little while... ...then it all went away and we're back to whatever "normal" is right now. Oh well, at least the vitamin P is working.

SC, you're going to be okay, too!

SC,
You're doing great! I love what you said to your WW as you were leaving! Give her something to think about! I know exactly what you mean by the detachment deal...if we act too detached, will it send the wrong message? I struggle with that. As WH talks about us leasing a home, and other things about the future, do I just act like it's going to happen? Or do I act cool and neutral about things? The problem is, I don't know what WH wants from me. Other than wanting to avoid conflict or pain (that's what he told me).
Anyhow, I talk to SH on Thurs. morning. Since it's my first consultation, should I write down a brief history of what's been going on? I'm afraid if I try to do it from memory it might take the whole hour. Also, do I call him Steve, Mr. Harley, Dr. Harley?
Take care and thanks for listening SC.
KK

Hi there!

<strong>
One question: do you think that there was a gradual change in your communications w/WH as he began to show honesty and to work on the M?</strong>

This is a good question. First, let me say that we have not yet been able to talk about his "affairs" (both of them - EA's). Nor has he "been honest" - in other words, he is not forthcoming of his own free will with the things I want to see to be able to feel confident that he recognizes where he went wrong (his weaknesses) and that he is willing to do what I need for reassurance. These include -

A. Taking the code/lock off his cellphone and
preferably, handing it to me so that I can
check his messages and phone log
whenever I want to.

B. Giving me the password to his e-mail
account so that I can check up on him
whenever I feel anxious that OW might try
to contact him.

C. Talking honestly to me, without getting
angry, about how these things came to
happen and what he is doing to prevent
them from happening in the future.

D. "Normalizing" our finances so that ALL of
our money is pooled in one joint bank
account.

E. Along with D above, this includes that he
stop hiding cash in his dresser drawer.

F. Along with D above, this include
including me on "his" credit card.

At present, I do not enjoy the luxury of a Visa or MC, while he has one with a £5,000 credit limit. He has earned this for good credit on his personal bank account. I see this as credit I have contributed to earning since I have worked damn hard to keep us debt-free for the 14 years we have been married. But he is "taking all the credit" - as it were. Exactly. I am not a person with a problem spending on credit. It's unreasonable controlling behaviour to deny me the credit I have earned - and it ties me down hand and foot. For instance, when my brother died and I had to go to the funeral, it was a holiday weekend, and of course, we did not have time to wait for the airline to post us the tickets - I had to pick them up at the airport. In a normal R, that would not be a problem - I would sign for them. But since they were bought on HIS credit card, he was the only person able to sign for them. The only reason I was able to get them was because he called up and yelled at everyone on the phone about how ridiculous THEIR rules were and this was a bereavement trip -so they softened. It was inwardly pretty humiliating not to be able to sign for my own tickets as a wife, in order to get to my own brother's funeral. Ridiculous.

What's my point? These are the things I want to see happen - these are my ultimate goals - aside from all the other stuff - better communication, respect for each other, meeting each other's EN's, etc.

But these are my specific goals to achieve through THERAPY. I recognize that I cannot get this without counselling.

What I can do is work on improving communication between us, so that we are able to begin to have the constructive conversations in therapy which will achieve the points I want above. And this is what I am seeing now - a willingness, and a gradual softening of his hard and defensive position. A gradual responsiveness to me in general. An effort to be appreciative and helpful.

I can't say that I am not still full of doubt. But at last I am hopeful - and I am trying not to sabotage the good things that seem to be happening.

<strong>Sometimes I feel like I should, by now, have been able to have a lot more to talk about with my W, but I still feel so guarded, since I still distrust so much, and especially because she has not been honest and forthcoming about her feelings, the truth, etc.</strong>

I have the same feelings. But I am telling myself that he is actually making progress - he is taking babysteps towards honesty, and openness, so I shall have to see where this leads. We are in the last two weeks of summer - after Sept, things will start up again in earnest - he will go back to work rehearsing, and will have his Mon nite rehearsals again - those are the evenings he started staying out late having a drink with OW2. I am wondering what I am going to do about that - do I ask him to come home straight afterwards to reassure me? Do I get a babysitter and meet him for a drink afterwards? Do I play squash on that night and ask him to pick me up from the sports club when he is done? How do I make sure that time is not available him to get tangled up again with someone new - especially when we are not yet able to talk about the last one?

I tried discussing this with a (male) friend who thought I was demanding too much of him - he said I had to trust him - he had a ring on his finger and I should trust him and not make him feel like he had to report to me. I said I trusted him last year, which was after OW1 - he turned around and got tangled up with OW2 behind my back while I thought everything was in recovery from OW1 - so how do I trust him now? Don't you think its time he had to prove himself to me, instead of me having to demonstrate my trust in him?

<strong>You think I'll start feeling differently as she begins to open up? (If she does).</strong>

I think BOTH of us will start feeling differently once our spouses start opening up and talking to us again. I know I have felt a lot better since I have been seeing some responsiveness and willingness to talk start to emerge in my H.

For instance, I have been "stewing" about this conversation I had on the phone with female friend - I ended up getting into a heated argument with her and I have not called to apologize. She asked how things were and I ended up saying more than I wanted - I don't like a lot of her "advice" which was very critical of me (this is a long story - she and her H have a very troubled M - he hits her, she rationalizes it ). Anyway - she calls and talks to my H sometimes - she is more friends with him than with me - I am afraid of how her ideas might influence him, and have been anxious bcos I am afraid she might call and say that I was angry and rude to her. But I have been afraid to talk to my H about it. So yesterday, I did bring it up - and I said I was worried bcos when she called, we got into a heated exchange - I told him some of the things she said to me. Instead of defending her, he actually said - "Well, they have a lot of problems and I think that's pretty obvious." I said, "Yes, but they are both very critical of me, and I worry about how much you pay attention to their opinions." He said "I wouldn't worry about it - she has obviously got a lot of her own problems." So I feel very relieved - he was (at least I think he was) trying to reassure me that he saw that their marriage was very troubled and he didn't pay too much attention to them.

I see that as him being reassuring to me - a good sign.

This is long - maybe not too helpful.

The short answer? Gradual! LOL
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But hey! I'm a girt - I take 6 zillion words to analyze what a guy can say in one!

LIR

Space,

I've been thinking lately about what Plan B would accomplish in my own situation. I know that the timing of it is designed to preserve the love we have left for our spouse. For myself it would also preserve my own self respect and dignity. I mean come on, fog or not there is only so much emotional battering a person can take! Emotional ABUSE is what it is!

It seems that dealing with WS, especially in an EA, is like dealing with a BRAT. BRAT in the dictionary means "an unruly child". I think we all have parts of us that are still immature/bratty. Plan B is almost like a "time out" for WS, or maybe a self imposed "time out" so BS can have some peace and time to heal ourselves. I dont want to demean or infantilize
our WS, but I think GROWING UP would go a long way in rebuilding our marriages. In my own case I have a lot of growing up to do by standing up for myself without LB's. The selfindulgent/pleasure seeking of an A is incredibly childish/bratty. The continued contact/lying/cheating, is like juvenile delinquency. This triggers my habit of major LB's bigtime.

In my own case, PLan B would probably be viewed by H as some sort of threat or manipulation/game playing/controlling. In reality I would have NO expectations of any specific result, only a need to take care of ME and give him a chance to make some decisions.

I have followed your posts for awhile now, trying to learn something. I have no advice, only thoughts to share with you and others.

Replaced

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

Judging from the times you posted, you're not getting enough sleep!

SC, you're going to be okay, too!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L; Actually I'm sleeping better than last week, just odd hours. I went to bed after a few posts about 12:45, then woke up about 3:someting for about an hour, went back to sleep and just woke up. So overall, I'm OK in that department.

The "coversation" with your W about the film is exactly what I'm talking about. You see, my W and I can't even talk about those things yet. I feel it, I presume she feels SOMETHING, but we can say anything to each other yet. We're just so far apart right now.

Thanks, I know we'll be OK.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kk2002:
<strong>SC,
You're doing great! I love what you said to your WW as you were leaving! Give her something to think about! I know exactly what you mean by the detachment deal...if we act too detached, will it send the wrong message? I struggle with that. As WH talks about us leasing a home, and other things about the future, do I just act like it's going to happen? Or do I act cool and neutral about things? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, KK!
The way I've handled that is that any talk of "the future", things that either don't have a particular short timeframe or "things we'd like to do", I am positive about. In other words, sending the message that, yes, we're going to be together in the future.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The problem is, I don't know what WH wants from me. Other than wanting to avoid conflict or pain (that's what he told me).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have a clue what my W wants from me either. She doesn't even say she wants to avoid conflic or pain. NOTHING at all, so I'm totally clueless there. Right now I think she's wanting to avoid the subject altogether. And it's curious, because although we have not talked about it almost at all since our confrontation about my knowing of ongoing contact, when she talked to Steve, she still tells him that she feels the "pressure" of having "this" going on all the time. And even at the time of that conversation, we'd only been talking about it maybe once a week or less, and for less that an hour at a time.
So even if we're NOT talking about it, it's in the air. Frankly, I feel that too.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Anyhow, I talk to SH on Thurs. morning. Since it's my first consultation, should I write down a brief history of what's been going on? I'm afraid if I try to do it from memory it might take the whole hour. Also, do I call him Steve, Mr. Harley, Dr. Harley?
Take care and thanks for listening SC.
KK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe a bullet list of the key milestones to remind you of events, otherwise, things just seem to start coming out as needed with Steve's questions. Don't worry, he knows what to ask to get the picture.
You can call him Steve, I think; I do.

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

10 minutes before Mr. Pepper and I were to leave for the movies ... I went to empty the clothes dryer, and I heard <drip> <drip> <~DRRRRIPPPPP~> sounds .... our water heater was hemorrhaging!

2 plumbers and $700 later ... we abandoned the movie date.

Today I am grateful for hot water.

Spacey ... I don't think it is even possible for YOU to act so detached from your WW that she will think you do not love her. Your love for her oozes from your eyes (I'm sure of this).

Way to go .... the spending 11 hours doing her a personal favor, and your parting truth shared with her was NOT a LB ... but a boundary.

Thumbs UP !!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Originally posted by Lady_In_Red:
<strong>Hi there!

This is a good question. First, let me say that we have not yet been able to talk about his "affairs" (both of them - EA's). Nor has he "been honest" - in other words, he is not forthcoming of his own free will with the things I want to see to be able to feel confident that he recognizes where he went wrong (his weaknesses) and that he is willing to do what I need for reassurance. These include -

A. Taking the code/lock off his cellphone
B. Giving me the password to his e-mail
C. Talking honestly to me, without getting
angry, about how these things came to
happen and what he is doing to prevent
them from happening in the future.
D. "Normalizing" our finances
E. Along with D above, this includes that he
stop hiding cash in his dresser drawer.
F. Along with D above, this include
including me on "his" credit card.</strong>

LIR; I guess the "talking" about it openly comes with time, but I ALSO think that talking about is says more about trust than about communication. In other words, when they are able to openly talk about it, it means they trust us with their weakness and that we won't use it to hurt them. MUCH more important than what is said, in my view.

About the list of things; Have you talked about these with him? Asked for them? I think you neet to, in the context of a trust-building conversation, and preferably done by the C.

The "money" things, especially the CC, that's just controlling and demeaning. That has to end ASAP! Not sure how, but that just cannot be!

<strong>But these are my specific goals to achieve through THERAPY. I recognize that I cannot get this without counselling.</strong>

I agree. And joint counseling is best for this.

<strong>What I can do is work on improving communication between us, so that we are able to begin to have the constructive conversations in therapy which will achieve the points I want above. And this is what I am seeing now - a willingness, and a gradual softening of his hard and defensive position. A gradual responsiveness to me in general. An effort to be appreciative and helpful.

I can't say that I am not still full of doubt. But at last I am hopeful - and I am trying not to sabotage the good things that seem to be happening.</strong>

It seems you are willing to be much more patient than I am or have been. Maybe you should harden up your position a bit, at least in terms of joint MC. I think that will help you start dealing with the things YOU want and need to happen.

<strong>...he will go back to work rehearsing, and will have his Mon nite rehearsals again - those are the evenings he started staying out late having a drink with OW2. I am wondering what I am going to do about that - do I ask him to come home straight afterwards to reassure me? Do I get a babysitter and meet him for a drink afterwards? Do I play squash on that night and ask him to pick me up from the sports club when he is done? How do I make sure that time is not available him to get tangled up again with someone new - especially when we are not yet able to talk about the last one?</strong>

I feel you just HAVE to address this. Just because he hasn't been able to talk about it doesn't mean you should suffer so. Tell him honestly and withour recrimination that this concerns you, and what he thinks he can do about it.

<strong>I tried discussing this with a (male) friend who thought I was demanding too much of him - he said I had to trust him - he had a ring on his finger and I should trust him and not make him feel like he had to report to me. I said I trusted him last year, which was after OW1 - he turned around and got tangled up with OW2 behind my back while I thought everything was in recovery from OW1 - so how do I trust him now? Don't you think its time he had to prove himself to me, instead of me having to demonstrate my trust in him? </strong>

Your male friend is clueless. Remember what we say around here about "well-meaning friends, family and therepists". I find that I cannot have conversations about this with anyone unless I have previously explained the principles, facts etc. and the person has bought into them. My father, for instance. I spent several hours talking to him about the "theory" of infidelity and recovery, Harley, etc. before I even started talking about my situation. So when I did, he was totally on board and it made sense to him.
Remember that most everyone, including all of us before we came here and learned, had a very different view of all these things. And being from a Latin background, I know that Europeans, like latins, ahve a much more tolerant view of H's EMAs. (rememeber what some of the European papers and magazines were saying when the Clinton/Lewinski thing happened, asking what the big deal was) Bad idea to discuss it w/someone who hasn't "learned" some of this. If you have a close friend you want to be able to talk to, I'd suggest you do what I did; give them the books, ask them to read them, tell you what they think, and then discuss these things with them.

<strong>I think BOTH of us will start feeling differently once our spouses start opening up and talking to us again. I know I have felt a lot better since I have been seeing some responsiveness and willingness to talk start to emerge in my H.</strong>

Hope so!!!

<strong>The short answer? Gradual! LOL
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But hey! I'm a girt - I take 6 zillion words to analyze what a guy can say in one!

LIR</strong>

Love you input, LIR! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Question for everybody,

Do I sound mean and cold, unemotional?

I think I do and I dont like it. I bet H doesnt like it either! Just one more habit I need to change?

Replaced

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong>Space,

I've been thinking lately about what Plan B would accomplish in my own situation. I know that the timing of it is designed to preserve the love we have left for our spouse. For myself it would also preserve my own self respect and dignity. I mean come on, fog or not there is only so much emotional battering a person can take! Emotional ABUSE is what it is!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">R; There is NO QUESTION that Plan B is also for the BS's preservation of sanity! You have NO idea the difference it has made for me to just be out of the house and away from the triggers! That alone makes it worth it!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It seems that dealing with WS, especially in an EA, is like dealing with a BRAT. BRAT in the dictionary means "an unruly child". I think we all have parts of us that are still immature/bratty. Plan B is almost like a "time out" for WS, or maybe a self imposed "time out" so BS can have some peace and time to heal ourselves. I dont want to demean or infantilize
our WS, but I think GROWING UP would go a long way in rebuilding our marriages. In my own case I have a lot of growing up to do by standing up for myself without LB's. The selfindulgent/pleasure seeking of an A is incredibly childish/bratty. The continued contact/lying/cheating, is like juvenile delinquency. This triggers my habit of major LB's bigtime.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right again. No matter what we call it, growing up, facing reality, etc. It's all the same...it is selfish behavior that pretty much ignores anyone else's needs.
Plan B does get you away from that, and allows for more clear boundaries to be drawn. "I will be willing to discuss our future WHEN you do x,y,z"

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In my own case, PLan B would probably be viewed by H as some sort of threat or manipulation/game playing/controlling. In reality I would have NO expectations of any specific result, only a need to take care of ME and give him a chance to make some decisions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that in EVERY case Plan B has some or all of these effects on the WS. Can't be helped. They will either get it, or they won't. In the meantime, you take care of YOU, and prepare to move on if necessary. With the added benefit that you've removed your need fulfillment to the WS.

Thanks for dropping in, R! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>...2 plumbers and $700 later ... we abandoned the movie date.

Today I am grateful for hot water.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yowch! Hate that. I had one like that 2 years ago, August in Houston, we had about 12 people staying with us for my niece's wedding, and the AC went out! The day of the wedding! So we were all getting dressed, into our tuxes in about 85 degrees inside the house! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Spacey ... I don't think it is even possible for YOU to act so detached from your WW that she will think you do not love her. Your love for her oozes from your eyes (I'm sure of this).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Guilty as charged. I wish it weren't so easy to read my face. I wonder if SHE is still able to do it without reading the wrong thing...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Way to go .... the spending 11 hours doing her a personal favor, and your parting truth shared with her was NOT a LB ... but a boundary.

Thumbs UP !!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. It did feel good. Both to do this for her, as well as to let her know I won't always be there. Hope she gets it.

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Replaced~~~

No ... you do not sound mean or unemotional.

I think "BRAT" works as an accurate description... sometimes ... and other times I think spiritual anorexia works too.

...... and, I'm talkin' about MY OWN behavior when I use those terms! LOL!

I am the BRAT occasionally. I have been spiritually and ethically thirsty many times.

We are all doing the best we can, at any given moment. BS and WS alike. OM and OW too. Life is difficult. Choices are hard to make. Changes frighten us. We resist our own better instincts sometimes. We abandon hope and replace it with resentment. We cling to the familiar pain and cannot fathom life without that pain.

We are ALL doing the best we can, at any given moment. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to others.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Replaced:
<strong>Question for everybody,

Do I sound mean and cold, unemotional?

I think I do and I dont like it. I bet H doesnt like it either! Just one more habit I need to change?

Replaced</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know why you say this...
But you should be watchful for your Love Bank...maybe it's getting too low?

I know I was feeling like the LBs were just barely below the surface when I started talking to Steve about it being enough of Plan A and time for B. He agreed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Posted by Pepper;
<strong>We are all doing the best we can, at any given moment. BS and WS alike. OM and OW too. Life is difficult. Choices are hard to make. Changes frighten us. We resist our own better instincts sometimes. We abandon hope and replace it with resentment. We cling to the familiar pain and cannot fathom life without that pain.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting statement. And very true, I'm afraid. As my W and I have gone thru this for 11 months, the 4 IC/MCs, hundreds of conversations...I'm convinced she associates ME with that "pain" of hers...like I'm inexorably linked to that...not only that, but, as you said, she cannot imagine life WITHOUT the pain. And I wonder if she will EVER be able to see life with me as something OTHER than the "pain"...I sometimes feel it's TOO ingrained, solidified and hardened: to a point of no return?

Hey!

Thanks for your feedback, Space -

I read further on in your thread - yes, I think the times when my H was away helped me realize I could live with living without him - that space helped me be stronger - gave me room to think straight and be better prepared when I next saw him.

I think plan B when you reach this point is a good idea, when you have reached your limit.

Hmmm- will have to get new glasses, I think - I wonder what a "girt' is - the "t" is nowhere near the "l" on my keyboard, but there you are - Freudian slip? Somewhere between "girl" and "git"? Hope I'm a girl. Checking now just to make sure! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LIR

Spacey .... the "pain" your wife feels does NOT center around you. It is HER pain .... the pain of who she is, the pain of her choices, the pain of her fence-sitting ....not what SPACE did, or did not do.

You are not her pain. She *is* her own pain. She can relieve herself of pain by her choices alone. She does not need to leave you, or to change you to change her pain. If she leaves you, her pain travels with her. If you change, her pain still travels with her.

When she differentiates herself from the fusion of marriage, her pain is her problem. When you differentiate yourself from the fusion of marriage, your pain is your problem.

Same as for WS-Woman ..... her pain does not lie in the lap of her H's faults ... but in her inability to make her personal changes.

Keep reading Passionate Marriage !

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I like what Replaced said about WDs being like brats and unruly children. There is this show on TV that I find facinating. It is about this child psychologist who goes to some parents' house and helps them deal with their unruly child. One of the things he does is when the child throws a tantrum or does not play well with a sibling, he takes him for a time out in the high chair or the crib. While he takes him there he does not look at the child and does not say anything to him. He just gently sets him down and leaves. The time out must be very short, one minute, after which he goes in and asks the child nicely: why are you here? before the child answers he tells him why and tells him he can come out if he changes his behaviour. If the kid cries again he puts him immediately back and leave for another minute and comes back and does the same thing until the kid gets it that the behaviour has to stop for him to get what he wants. It is amazing to see the kid start behaving every time.

I think it is the same with our WSs when we are in plan B. They have to be told in a non LBing way what they need to do to be with us and this has to be consistent. In the same way that the psychologist did not look at the child and did not say anything, we must not talk OR or fulfill WS's needs in any way until they are ready to demonstrate that they can behave in a acceptable way.

SC, you did very well telling your wife what she needed to do. You did it in a quiet, responsible way and I am sure it got her attention. Keep up the good work.

LIR: Hmmm- will have to get new glasses, I think - I wonder what a "girt' is - the "t" is nowhere near the "l" on my keyboard, but there you are - Freudian slip? Somewhere between "girl" and "git"? Hope I'm a girl. Checking now just to make sure! LOL

Oh, I got that part! I trust your "search" confirmed this! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Spacey .... the "pain" your wife feels does NOT center around you. It is HER pain .... the pain of who she is, the pain of her choices, the pain of her fence-sitting ....not what SPACE did, or did not do.

You are not her pain. She *is* her own pain. She can relieve herself of pain by her choices alone. She does not need to leave you, or to change you to change her pain. If she leaves you, her pain travels with her. If you change, her pain still travels with her.

When she differentiates herself from the fusion of marriage, her pain is her problem. When you differentiate yourself from the fusion of marriage, your pain is your problem.

Same as for WS-Woman ..... her pain does not lie in the lap of her H's faults ... but in her inability to make her personal changes.

Keep reading Passionate Marriage !

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep; I KIND OF get this by now, I guess it's easier to "see it" in WS-Woman's case. The question is, perhaps, will my W ever "see it"?
As far as she's concerned the A is my fault, I drove her to it...and all the rest of that bull.

I'm reading, I still don't get the "differentiation" , but then again, I haven't gotten there yet. Very slow going, I can barely make myself concentrate on it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />