"I don't expect much."

"listen" ... "stay calm" ... "see where she's going"

These are your words of wisdom ... I think you have come such a long way, and you have learned to trust yourself.

It will be OK ... but may not be OK on your timetable ... and you are OK with that .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your last post was right on target and I did not feel a need to nag you at all.

"SpaceMonkey" because you are so full of playful antics.... and because I like the way it looks when it's written.

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sing:
<strong>SC,

just skimming & wanted you to know that you were thought about it.

Hoping you won't be celebrating that anv in Plan B.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Sing. Appreciate the visit.

The Anniv; not even an acknowledgement? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>It will be OK ... but may not be OK on your timetable ... and you are OK with that .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meaning.....???

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"SpaceMonkey" because you are so full of playful antics.... and because I like the way it looks when it's written.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh. OK then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(The way it looks written!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

SC-

Steve does seem awesome. I especially liked his analogy of building muscles (taking work at first and seeing results later). He always uses good analogies with me as well. I liked the point he was making here and was one I discussed with my W at the start of her A (based on reading Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw.) He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake."

Anyway, I concur with your ideas on if/when your W speaks with you.

Definately listen. If you feel like blowing up, instead use good listening skills.

I notice that you want to see if it is "real" and you are very concerned about whether this is another attempt to buy time/get you home w/o really meaning what she says/agree to commit to M, etc.

Becareful at interpretting if she is "real" or not. While I'm not saying you can or cannot tell, I am challenging you to challenge yourself/your own judgements. Keep in mind that even though you "are not expecting much" you still would prefer to have your M back and not a D. This can/will? be an emotional discussion which can affect judgement. And your W may seem "real" and you may be wrong and vice versa, or may seem and be "real" at that point in time and later change or vice versa.

I know I'm just stating the obvious that there are different possibilities. Consider SH's insight after this of whether it is "real" before full blown Plan B.

I have been considering Plan B myself but I want to do a good Plan A for myself.

On a related note, I have made an obversation and was wondering if this seems true.
It seems that those M's that start recovery (or at least the WS coming back to the BS) due to Plan B (or even Plan A for that matter) have two possibilities:

1. the WS realizes BS may be lost forever and tries to win BS back - plan A on BS by WS (I like this one)

or

2. the A dies, WS feels no love but by default / guilt? / logic ? goes back to M & has a rough recovery with depression withdrawal from OP/A etc. (like the "soul mates" affair described in SAA.)

sorry to ramble, just thought I'd pipe in for a bit since I haven't in awhile but have been reading!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HAVE_2_B_PaTiEnT:
<strong>SC,

I wish your WW come around and see what a loving husband your are to her. How can she not?? Plan-B is a real B#&$*! After 4 months of separation myself, another night of feeling alone, I just broke down and cried. I guess its a process I have to get through...

Take care.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H2BP;
I'm sorry, I must have flown thru this...never saw it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thank you for your thoughts...are u doing OK? Hang in there, and be strong! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aanast2:
<strong>SC-

Steve does seem awesome. I especially liked his analogy of building muscles (taking work at first and seeing results later). He always uses good analogies with me as well. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent analogy, and one easily understood by anyone. True too!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I liked the point he was making here and was one I discussed with my W at the start of her A (based on reading Relationship Rescue by Dr. Phil McGraw.) He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the Harley's subscribe to this theory as well. One of the things Steve said to us about going to the MB Weekend was precisely this.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I notice that you want to see if it is "real" and you are very concerned about whether this is another attempt to buy time/get you home w/o really meaning what she says/agree to commit to M, etc.

Becareful at interpretting if she is "real" or not. While I'm not saying you can or cannot tell, I am challenging you to challenge yourself/your own judgements. Keep in mind that even though you "are not expecting much" you still would prefer to have your M back and not a D. This can/will? be an emotional discussion which can affect judgement. And your W may seem "real" and you may be wrong and vice versa, or may seem and be "real" at that point in time and later change or vice versa.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think these are valid points, and I will ponder them. Naturally I cannot pretend to be able to read her 100% (Hello!!! Missed the A for over a year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )
Nonetheless, I am in absolutely NO hurry to run home, and I'm willing to make her jump through some hoops first. This can only be positive if I'm pretty comfortable about her real intentions/wishes before heading back home. Another DDay would just be THE END.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I know I'm just stating the obvious that there are different possibilities. Consider SH's insight after this of whether it is "real" before full blown Plan B.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No question. I trust Steve and he hasn't failed me. His "feel" for things is impeccable.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
On a related note, I have made an obversation and was wondering if this seems true.
It seems that those M's that start recovery (or at least the WS coming back to the BS) due to Plan B (or even Plan A for that matter) have two possibilities:

1. the WS realizes BS may be lost forever and tries to win BS back - plan A on BS by WS (I like this one)

or

2. the A dies, WS feels no love but by default / guilt? / logic ? goes back to M & has a rough recovery with depression withdrawal from OP/A etc. (like the "soul mates" affair described in SAA.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were to take a guess, I'd say it's a 1:10 ratio of #1 to #2, maybe even more. But yes, those are the two possibilities!

Cadet,

Spacemonkey? Cute handle. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Steve's meeting with your W? Great. See others can do things that you can't. So utilize your supporters and let them work for you. Let them carry some of your weight. You don't have to fix it all yourself. Neither do you have to carry all the weight yourself.

Steve laid it on the line. Now he is asking for your patience but you see light at the end of the waiting tunnel. This is good. It is iffy and can go either way but at least it is progress.

View this in the positve and proper prespective but prepare yourself for the worst outcome. Know that whatever plan you execute it is because you are doing it for the 'right' reasons.

Cadet, I am proud of you. I don't get to post to you too much anymore, you are in good hands and have been a great help to others. Sometimes it is easier to see when it is not so close to our heart. ya know?!?!?!?

take care,
L.

I agree with Orchid.

You have been a great help to others. Reading your posts, your struggles, your desire to do the right thing, bouncing ideas off others, thinking, preparing, planning, trying, and more have been very inspiring to me.

I just hope that when the time comes I will be as strong to make the right choice for my marriage and/or me.

Thanks.

aanast2:

" He calls it programming in which the actions of love w/o feeling of love will cause the feelings of love to come eventually. My WW says that all of that is "fake.""

Wayward Spousal Units (WSUs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) think these methods are fake and their love for their OPs are real because of the fog they're in. My W had one of her "thoughtful moments" a few months back when she said to me "You don't choose who you fall in love with, it just happens" and I quickly replied "Love is very much a choice. We can choose to love each other. You are infatuated with Rat Meat. That isn't real love. It can't last." She didn't reply, but she didn't change the subject either. Changing the subject is a sign of her avoiding thinking about something, like disagreeing and arguing with me. I KNOW she didn't expect an insightful reply from me at that point. She certainly wasn't ready for such a quick reply. I carved a couple of notches in my MB 2x4 on that occasion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

So on a resume under qualifications, would that read "dirt eating notch carver" or "notch carving dirt eater" ? I like the way the second one sounds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Meaning ....

Things will work out
Space cannot control when that happends
Space makes peace with the timetable not being in his control,

That is all.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Cadet,
Steve's meeting with your W? Great. See others can do things that you can't. So utilize your supporters and let them work for you. Let them carry some of your weight. You don't have to fix it all yourself. Neither do you have to carry all the weight yourself.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've learned to do this more and more. Steve has been a godsend, and letting "destiny" (or whatever it's called) take it's course has also helped. Trying to "force" it does not work.

I am under-expecting, and I will be patient. I can do that now. It's in her hands.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Cadet, I am proud of you. I don't get to post to you too much anymore, you are in good hands and have been a great help to others. Sometimes it is easier to see when it is not so close to our heart. ya know?!?!?!?

take care,
L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, O. I was thinking about you yesterday...hadn't seen you here in a while...I knew why...missed you but knew the reason was the most noble. You have done more than your part for me, and I'm glad you think I'm doing my part for others.

SC- Glad things are progressing nicely.. wish I had the dollars for all that time with Steve... looks like it is well worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think your wife is coming around, and you are doing quite well on your part. All we can control is ourselves in this mess, and you are doing very very well. I wish I could capture some of the patience. Well they , the ws that is, kind of force us to become more than patient...

Maybe even accepting and giving up on them? That is what I feel...

I have always thought your wife would come around, maybe push coming to shove is what it takes. She will be crazy not to show some real commitment to you and stop the crazy prison infatuation.

Take care, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Honey Darlin'! long time no see! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Honey:
<strong>SC- Glad things are progressing nicely.. wish I had the dollars for all that time with Steve... looks like it is well worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It has been a serious sacrifice financially, but the way I see it is that losing my M would be much more costly, and not only financially...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Maybe even accepting and giving up on them? That is what I feel... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey...maybe you should think of adopting these wise words yourself....worked for me!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I have always thought your wife would come around, maybe push coming to shove is what it takes. She will be crazy not to show some real commitment to you and stop the crazy prison infatuation.

Take care, HONEY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I think it was more effective to stop pushing and shoving!

Hi Spacecase,

I was thinking ( as I read suggestions that you should try to listen really well) that you don't need to give your side in this upcomming discussion. You can just listen and go "home" and think about it. If she askes you what you think, you can just say " I don't know what I am going to do, ( or say, or think) and I am going to do some thinking and get back to you."

In other words, just spend the whole discussion listening. Often we don't listen as well as we should because we are trying to figure out what to say in return. If you know up front that you are not going to say anything ( except to try and draw her out) you may do a better job. The first time she asks for your thoughts you can just say something like above and tell her this is her time to talk, and you will come back in a few days and give your side.

If you just want to be done with it you may not like this idea, but if you are patient ( ha, ha don't you hate it?) it may work better.

You could still use some pretty strong questions to draw her out - " so you think by keeping secrets from me our marriage will be better and stronger?"

I don't want to see you unload on her again like you did a few weeks ago if you get frustrated with her answers. Perhaps you have progressed to the point where you won't anyway.

SS

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS;

Your input is exactly right on. My greatest fear, and probably my greatest failing all along, has been that I almost can't contain myself when she's babbling or lying.

But your suggested approach sounds very good, I was thinking myself what I could do to JUST LISTEN...because I KNOW that is what I need to do now.

Maybe if at the start I tell her "This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, think about it, and then come back and tell you what I think", as you suggest, that might help.

I know that my inpatience and reactions have been my worst enemies ALL along. I know it! The frustration and anger are so close to the surface, that I just have not been able to control it.

I cannot let that happen this time. I just can't! I'm working on this. Thanks for the idea, it's a very good one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe if at the start I tell her "This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, think about it, and then come back and tell you what I think", as you suggest, that might help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC,

Think about the other side of the coin here....

I may be wrong, but since there is a "privacy" thing going on here, she could take this the wrong way.

She may think that you are setting her up to say something she shouldn't, or...to misinterpret something she says. In other words, she may say to herself, " He's waiting to pounce on me for something I say". Might not be best to make it obvious.

Just another thought, IMHO.

HCII

Fair enough; what about this:

"This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, and ask questions if I'd like you to clarify something, OK?"

Then, at the end, I can tell her that I'm not sure what I want to do, that I'll think about it and get back to her...

Hey Spaceguy on the Southside...

I like it Space! I think it will make here feel safer. Besides if you ask a few clarifying questions here and there, it will really convey that you are listening!

The Brat on the Nortside.

h4f:

"So on a resume under qualifications, would that read "dirt eating notch carver" or "notch carving dirt eater" ? I like the way the second one sounds. "

How about "Mud-sniffing, notch carving, simple savior of America's destiny!" Okay, I ripped the savior stuff off Pat Paulsen. But the mud-smelling stuff I am QUALIFIED to do! Seriously, 20 years ago I worked as a "Mud logger" in the oil fields of San Joaquin Valley. We were often called "mud-sniffers" or "mud-smellers". You get to look up what that is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />