WOW! I'm practically speechless! Don't know what to tell you except cinch up that seat belt - you're on one heckuva roller coaster! Hope the track levels out soon and y'all come safely and happily into the station.

My prayers are with you and family.

Here's my list:

<strong>Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)</strong>
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

<strong>Nice to Have's</strong>
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by going_crazy:
Spacecase,

I don't know if you have been following my post, but my WH seems to be coming out of the fog too, I would love to hear how this conversation goes with your wife!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just what phase is the moon in anyway? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WW shows up here at the door after a 2 month NC with me. We're in the middle of DV.

OM is out. Adios. OMW is "with child". VERY VERY HUGE LB'er to WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> WW is at door crying. Says she misses the pets (cats), but she hadn't missed them for over 4 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe not the "only" reason? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Signs of "old" W seeping out. I really didn't need that in my sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well......maybe it's not the moon? I bet the humidity is low, causing the fog to lift some everywhere......

HCII

SC: can't those NASA guys down there put a big fogsucker in space for us. we can call it "spacecase"

Yeah, wierd about the moon...

WW called OM '[censored]' today... Not sure what to make of that. That is what I have called him occasionally.

Hang in there, but DON'T be messing around with your Wellbutrin doseage. And don't drink. Too much strain on your liver.

ST

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong>Just what phase is the moon in anyway? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WW shows up here at the door after a 2 month NC with me. We're in the middle of DV.

OM is out. Adios. OMW is "with child". VERY VERY HUGE LB'er to WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> WW is at door crying. Says she misses the pets (cats), but she hadn't missed them for over 4 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe not the "only" reason? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Signs of "old" W seeping out. I really didn't need that in my sitch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Oh well......maybe it's not the moon? I bet the humidity is low, causing the fog to lift some everywhere......

HCII</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I saw that! Amazing, just amazing! I'll tell you it's definitely NOT the low humidity! If you've EVER been to Houston, especially in August, you KNOW humidity is around 90%! LOL!

But; whatever it is, we'll take it! What's on your mind HCII? Plans?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by going_crazy:
<strong>SC: can't those NASA guys down there put a big fogsucker in space for us. we can call it "spacecase"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I love it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And 2L's gonna love it even more!!! ROFLMAO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, maybe it's "Dump the OM/OW Week" and nobody told us!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Space:

Congratulations. I am happy for you. I am obviously no expert. It seems the biggest thing here is that your W recognizes you do have some importance in her life. I am somewhat more conservative on what the rest of her interaction with SH really means.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then Steve goes on "She has very serious doubts as to your ability to re-build love and care in your M. She asks "What about me? What do I get?" and I told her that the success of that is ALSO dependent on her working as a team, and not as an individual. The same thing applies; what you've been doing does not work. You know that. That is confirmed now. You have to try something else, why not try the team approach, what I'm suggesting? I know this works, it's worked for a lot of other people. And she seems willing to do it, but you have to reinforce and be encouraging about your belief in the future."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the difference here from all her other negotiations to give just enough to keep you around? I am not trying to rain on your parade. I just want you to be cautious and stick to what you need to move on the M. Remember your taker must also be satisfied to avoid resentment.

As everyone pointed out so well, please listen very well to what she is telling you. What she is willing to add to the plan and what she has decided to do differently to help the M.

Although, everyone has pointed out the pitfalls of educating your W, I do think showing confidence that Spacecase can see a future w/ W and a happy M would be a good thing.

I don't know Space it still seems to me that time and your W true understanding that a good M and independence are not mutually exclusive. JL pointed out well a truly independent person has no difficulty being dependent on others.

Keep your eyes and EARS open Space.

All my prayers to your W that she truly sees your great value to her life.

I hope she really sees you are both a team as well as individuals.

Good for you Space.

Jack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by willmakeitwork:
<strong>What is the difference here from all her other negotiations to give just enough to keep you around? I am not trying to rain on your parade. I just want you to be cautious and stick to what you need to move on the M. Remember your taker must also be satisfied to avoid resentment.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jack; You are correct, and I clearly see it this way. I'm not over-expectant, just happy she's made a move so quickly. No parade here yet.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As everyone pointed out so well, please listen very well to what she is telling you. What she is willing to add to the plan and what she has decided to do differently to help the M.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed; this is exactly what I'm looking for. Not the bare minimum to keep me around, but what she's actually learned/understood about what needs to happen and change.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although, everyone has pointed out the pitfalls of educating your W, I do think showing confidence that Spacecase can see a future w/ W and a happy M would be a good thing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct. And that is EXACTLY what Steve asked me to do; reinforce my belief that we CAN have a future, a good one.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know Space it still seems to me that time and your W true understanding that a good M and independence are not mutually exclusive. JL pointed out well a truly independent person has no difficulty being dependent on others.

Keep your eyes and EARS open Space.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm under no illusions here. I know we have problems. Serious problems. And I know we may NOT be able to correct them, we may fail and discover we just cannot do this, or she cannot fall in love with me again, or 100s of other potential pitfalls...all I want is a fair chance to try. Without the OM and his influence to distort those efforts. The chance for a sincere effort, a real effort...that's all I ask.

Many thanks Jack!

Spacecase,

Your list looks pretty reasonable. I like the fact that you'll use Steve for negotiations (and I think that one aspect---Steve---is non-negotiable). Again, the phraseology for this would be "hey Hon, we're not coming to a consensus here---why don't we put it aside for now and let Steve help us on resolving it". Steve is there to help you navigate through the emotional landmines that accompany this type of recovery.

You had a question concerning room to negotiate on independence. The carrot I would use (but I'm not you) is that you schedule your 15 hrs/week together (hard schedules on each other's calendars) to rebuild. But acknowledge that your wife may need some time out to do stuff as well (and schedule that in). I would suggest that the only limitations on that be within the reconcilliation guidelines (like no OM stuff), and you might want to discuss limiting contact with friends who you are uncomfortable with. In other words, acknowledge her need as legitimate, and express a desire to try to meet it WITHOUT damaging the marriage.

Space,
Great news! Way to go, Man!!
You be the man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
You getting lots of good feedback - My take is to keep in mind what Steve said -- Listen -- don't educate -- My sense is that you still want to demonstrate lots of confidence of course & cool independence -- Am I correct that Steve said to not be affectionate - mixed signals -- In other words, I see it like you don't want to seem too anxious to make admends -- let her make her move first --
Expectations - I would say it would be best to not set high expectations --
I have a caution -- she may want you back to ease her feelings of loneliness, but she may still not want to committ to much in order to get you back -she may still have in the back of her mind having a lot of what she had before (like the independence thing!), once you are back.

If you tip your hand too early about your anxiousness to re-unite, this may tip the scales to her adavntage in minimizing her comittments to your list for example. And remember, She was asking what she gets in return. She has put you through heXX -- I say let her feel some tension --try not to give in to her demands so easily, & give up your want list to ease her tension. This I know is hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You know what you want & that is great -- As I see it, what you outlined is reasonable & very important -- I would move the no contact & warden thing up on the must list -- I feel everything is important, but that she may resist becasue to her it may seem like a lot. I want to re-inforce what Steve said -- try to listen & hopefully she will suggest the no-contact letter kind of thing -- If she does not, I am not sure what Steve would recommend -- Is he sugesting you have this prepared list?
I sense that it is going to take some time and do this right, it may ultimatley be to your best interest, not to rush this re-unting thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> -- One step at a time!! Maybe move back,(I know you have to be practical from costs point of view!) but make it clear it is tempory, or probationary kind of thing until you both agree on strategy -- seperate bed room thing?

Hang in there! You are doing well!! I am proud of you, man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Peace to all ...

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But; whatever it is, we'll take it! What's on your mind HCII? Plans? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez, SC....I really don't know.....

Been at the acceptance phase of DV for a while now. This has really thrown a monkey-wrench in the whole ordeal.

WW still wants DV, but....has made it known that she doesn't want a TOTAL NC separation. Hints about "leaving the door open" for future possibilities.

Will probably go through with DV. Then, I guess, cross the next bridge when I get to it. This is amazingly bittersweet. I really DIDN'T need this. Has set MY recovery back a little.

I guess DV will close this chapter. Then....just take it as it comes.....

HCII

Space, my NEW vote for the name of the thread is Affairs that don't end...2 B or not 2 B.

Whaaaa haa haa haaa!!!!

Hcii...your wife is still showing signs of fence sitting. If she wants to be in your life she needs to show committment to the marriage and put the Dv on hold. If she's not willing to do that...then she needs to respect your NC wishes and move on. This is reality rearing its ugly head...she needs to feel it completely...not use you as a buffer to the pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Spacecase,

Your list looks pretty reasonable. I like the fact that you'll use Steve for negotiations (and I think that one aspect---Steve---is non-negotiable). Again, the phraseology for this would be "hey Hon, we're not coming to a consensus here---why don't we put it aside for now and let Steve help us on resolving it". Steve is there to help you navigate through the emotional landmines that accompany this type of recovery.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good phrase...I'll add it to the cheat-sheet!

Oh, definitely; Steve is non-negotiable! (I bet he'd love to hear how we're reffering to him here! Do you want one Steve or two Steves? And do you want fries with that? LOL!!)

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You had a question concerning room to negotiate on independence. The carrot I would use (but I'm not you) is that you schedule your 15 hrs/week together (hard schedules on each other's calendars) to rebuild. But acknowledge that your wife may need some time out to do stuff as well (and schedule that in). I would suggest that the only limitations on that be within the reconcilliation guidelines (like no OM stuff), and you might want to discuss limiting contact with friends who you are uncomfortable with. In other words, acknowledge her need as legitimate, and express a desire to try to meet it WITHOUT damaging the marriage. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see. Perfect. In other words I can "give" her some of that independence she seeks as part of the negotiation. Perfect.

Thanks K!

Thanks, HH!

I want to clarify; I am not optimistic about this. In fact, I sincerely doubt Plan B will not come to pass.

That being said, however, I cannot refuse a peace offering at this (or any) stage.

I will go, listen, take notes, clarify if necessary, thank her for her candor and her willingness to talk/negotiate, express my hopes for our bright future together, and let her know I'll think about it.

Depending on what she is offering (and asking for in return!), I'll probably counter-offer, and so on. If she's being very, very reasonable (yeah, right!), and offering pretty much all I want, cool! We'll ponder it a day or two and decide. If she's not being so reasonable, we'll let her simmer a bit longer and counter-offer.

I am not particularly eager or desperate to go back home; the pain is still too fresh, and I'm certainly NOT going to give up what I've gotten for myself. I'm right where I want to be right now; looking at my options.

I also don't want to appear too eager. Besides, the pressure on her will mount in the coming days when the "kiddoes" go back to school, and even more a few days later when big kiddo goes back to Austin...so I'm in no rush. Besides, I get a better rate here if I stay a month...no tax!

<small>[ August 14, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

HCII;
I agree with your posture and with H4F; after what she's put you through, she should not come back until she's willing to say "I'll do whatever it takes to rebuild our marriage" and mean it.

I know it must be a shock and a major re-alignment of the thought processes you had going, but it is another option that presents itself to you.

SC:

Gee willikers! I won't quote your whole original post, but just say that it sounds like it just might be possible that your W and my W got wires crossed and that was MY W that Steve was talking to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That privacy, independence "issue" crap is exactly the kind of stuff I'm dealing with.

Haven't talked about much of that lately at all. In fact, haven't talked any R stuff at all since I got back, and it's "working" for whatever that means. I'm getting signs that my W is starting to worry about the future of our M, like her comment yesterday morning that she was "a little afraid" and needed a hug.

hcii: Gee willikers to you2! Why is it that it seems like these things happen this way so often. Or is it just me? Similar to nasakid's sitch in many ways.

Oh well, back on my head!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
• Demonstrated End of R with OM
• Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to Radical Honesty
• Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
• Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
• Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
• OM knows it's over and rebuilding M – NC letter
• OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
• Other Characters know it’s over / NC
• Letter to Warden ending Communications
• Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
• Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
• Tell me the real story
• Answer my questions about this
• Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space,

IMHO:

I am worried that you are going to give her too much at once to deal with at once. You have been reading and learning about how to fix the marriage for a long time and are leaps and bounds above her in knowledge. Do not overwelm her with specifics and do not preach to her how to save the marriage. Let the counselor do this. It is not necessary at this point in time to go into very detailed specifics, besides it is nearly impossible to work on everything at once even if she is a multi-tasking women.

Be simple in your request and it will be received better. Your list is almost preachy. What you want is for her to commit to working on the marriage using MB recovery principals and for your WW to commit to NC.

Because of your WW's past and lying about NC, you need to have her write a NC letter and review it and make sure it gets in OM's hands. The NC letter should go on your MUST HAVE list.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to clarify; I am not optimistic about this. In fact, I sincerely doubt Plan B will not come to pass.

That being said, however, I cannot refuse a peace offering at this (or any) stage.

I will go, listen, take notes, clarify if necessary, thank her for her candor and her willingness to talk/negotiate, express my hopes for our bright future together, and let her know I'll think about it.

Depending on what she is offering (and asking for in return!), I'll probably counter-offer, and so on. If she's being very, very reasonable (yeah, right!), and offering pretty much all I want, cool! We'll ponder it a day or two and decide. If she's not being so reasonable, we'll let her simmer a bit longer and counter-offer.

I am not particularly eager or desperate to go back home; the pain is still too fresh, and I'm certainly NOT going to give up what I've gotten for myself. I'm right where I want to be right now; looking at my options.

I also don't want to appear too eager. Besides, the pressure on her will mount in the coming days when the "kiddoes" go back to school, and even more a few days later when big kiddo goes back to Austin...so I'm in no rush. Besides, I get a better rate here if I stay a month...no tax!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the tone of your post here, I get the feeling that you do not want to go back now. That you want to go to Plan B whatever the costs. Is this even partially true?

IMHO: There should be no counteroffering or dealing here, this is not a car dealership, this is a marriage. I think you should bring in a list of two items which is NC/NC letter and commitment to work on the marriage through MC and MB principals. If she is not willing to do that, then Plan B. Simple, sweet, loving, and not complicated. Something she can remember and know for sure why Plan B occurred. If she agreed to some of the many specific items, and not to others, then she is left to ponder "why did he do Plan B?"

Just my opinion.

Too bad the full moon does not affect my neck of the woods.