Kily,

You know I doubt he HATES you. I also think that if you can sit there and let his 'hate' bounce off of you, simply refuse to accept it, you will gradually wear him down. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You see one doesn't have to accept another persons emotions. You can chose to view his 'hate' as simply letting out his pain and while you caused the pain, you don't have to view it as something negative about you. I know I am not stating this right.

Let me try an analogy. If one wants to break a horse, you start out gently, you introduce them to touch, the horse will buck, rear up, kick at you, but you don't view that as personal. You accept that this part of them dealing with what is happening. Gradually, the contact becomes stronger, gradually you introduce a blanket, a saddle, and finally you mount. The horse will try to throw you off, but eventually it tires, realizes (or whatever a horse does) that you are there for the duration and accepts.

Now your exBF is not a horse, but you know many of our instincts are similar to other animals. So when I say not to accept his 'hate', I mean just as you would expect the horse to try and kick you, try to throw you off, you can expect your exBF to go through the 'hate' phase.

What he will eventually see is that you have changed. You see things differently. He may realize he does as well. Then you two can talk about it. NOW HERE IS WHERE DECISIONS can and should be made. It may come to pass that once you two can really talk, and see the changed person before them, that you DON'T want a relationship. At that point you can walk away with a clear conscience and so can he. You will know if you are right for each other or not.

I would suggest that until you can get to this point, you must keep trying if you want to try at all. In another words, either stop now, or go the distance and see what happens. That is what I mean YOU need to commit to try this. It will be too painful for exBF and you, to do this in a half-assed manner.

Does this make sense? Hope so.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I think you were sent to this web site as a spirtual guide to all of us lost souls.

In talking with the therapist the other night I uncovered some truths about the relationship that my XBF and I shared. I asked him whether he thought either of us had commitment issues, and he explained the "Adult/Adolescent" relationship. Basically I was the adolescent that had to "try" new things and rebel because there was something "lacking" in my emotional development.

Basically, I have now entered the emotional "adult" stage. By wanting to face the issues that caused the demise of the realtionship, I am now starting to accept responsibilty. The problem is that XBF has been a "parent" to me for so long that he doesn't believe that it will change. I have hurt him and myself so much.

I'm trying to be patient and stay the course, but it's hard when he can't even be in the same room with me.

Did you read my poem. I think you will like it.

Thanks Again.

Kily,

I liked the poem alot. I am glad you pointed it out to me.

I think you need to realize that you have essentially been gone from the relationship for 3 years. It is going to take a lot of time for him to see the new you and to trust that it is real. How long?? I would guess at least a year. This just isn't going to be solved in a few weeks or months. It sounds as if you hurt him very deeply and the more so because he DID try to restore the relationship. He met a stone wall and just got hammered.

I doubt you are going to see him wanting to slam against that wall again. So you are going to have to dismantle it stone by stone. That takes time.

It also seems to me that you are JUST NOW starting to really enter your new phase in your development. There are more changes to come Kily, and I suspect that they will be very good for you. You are learning some very important things and he will have to as well.

I got the impression you went to counseling with him. How did that really go? Did he allow you to speak to him? If so that is good. One baby step at a time kily, that is all you can do.

God Bless,

JL

Actually I'm glad you asked.

Counseling went well from my perspective because I felt very much at peace when I left.

Unfortunately from the relationship point of view, he was completely closing me off and became very loud and defensive when it was time for me to voice my feelings. He was adamant about not wanting this anymore and VERY insistant that he doesn't even like the sight of me. A little over a half hour into the session, he suddenly decided that he had to go pick up our son and announced that he was leaving. He then stated "You two can continue without me if that is what you choose to do". I think that I hit some nerves and he just had to flee.....but he needs to see that I'm not going to run away from the problems or pain.

After talking with his counselor for some time I came to the stuff I mentioned above. The counselor listened to what my real motivations were for wanting to face this situation and mend it, and he warned me that it is "really hard to open the door to a man's heart once he slams it shut". I told him that I was prepared and that I had been turning to this site for help.

Although he isn't really receptive to my being around, I was able to get into the house and gather some of my belongings. I spent most of the day there and really enjoyed being in my home. Even if the environment wasn't the friendliest. He's still really cold, and he is punishing me every chance he gets. Sometimes he gets a rise out of me, but then I stopand say to him that this is not why I came here and I retreat to a calmer mode.

I also started another thread about Parent/Adolescent relationships. Check that out if you are following and want to know more. This whole thing has been a nightmare and I really want to help others now.

Thanks again.

Kily,

Have you ever heard of the word triggers as used on this board? It is when usually a betrayed spouse sees something, hears something or something is done, that reminds them of their spouses affair. These triggers often take the BS back to the emotional state they were in when the actual affair was going on, and they can be very painful.

My guess is that seeing you in the house where he and you used to live is a huge trigger. I suspect seeing you acting friendly and kind is a huge trigger. Many things you say are probably huge triggers. So he goes back emotionally to the pain he felt and the total defensless he felt.

My guess that is what you are seeing now. If that is the case, then if you are consistent in your new behavior and your resolve gradually those triggers will weaken and he will gradually not be hurt so much by your presence.

I am not saying he will come to love you again, but he very like will come to be able to speak with you and treat you in a friendly manner. Again, I keep using that word patience, it is the key.

The counselor is right about one thing, you cannot open his heart again. But, he may be willing to after he becomes comfortable with you around. It is a slow process and I am sure he is very frightened by the potential for pain again. If you didn't have a child together my suggestion would be to move on and that may yet happen. But I do think that your efforts will at least lead to the two of you being able to be civil with one another for the childs sake.

Hang in there, you have just begun your journey.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Actually we talked quite a bit about triggers in the therapy session. One point that the therapist brought up was that this last trip I went on was an instant throw back to the events that ocurred right before I moved out of the house. He went on to say that not only did the XBF have to deal with the pain from the origianl trauma, he had more pain dealt to him with the timing of this trip. That is why XBF keeps saying he doesn't want to deal with this anymore.....he is hurting so much that he has to shut off to protect himself. This is exactly what I did when I rasn away from him. I see the cycle starting for him now and I'm trying to handle this as an adult. I genuinely want to support him through all of these changes because I do ultimately want for us to grow in a new direction. He was so there for me that now I feel it's my turn to show him how much I love him too.

Prior to last week, I wasn't even aware of such a thing as a trigger. I discovered this in one of Princesses posts and found it really eye opening.

As I said before, I have only recently come out of the FOG and am only now starting to really understand what was going on in HIS world.......God I wish I knew before. The therapist didn't know if this anger was strictly trigger related, so he wasn't sure if it would lessen with time or not.

The XBF seems to really enjoy treating me as if I was a child. I'm trying to bite my tongue and gently remind him that I am fully capable of taking care of a household on my own and managing the job, school, and kids. It's been pretty hard lately becaue I have no one to turn to and the last thing I want is to start an EA with another party. I try to stay focused on the reasons for his anger, and this gets me through the times when he is extremely harsh. I try to look past the behavior and into the person underneath the anger.

I've been toying with the idea of moving back into the house, but he is completely against this. I'm feeling a bit angry becaue we both have ownership of the home and legally I have the right to do this. I know that I mentioned that he locked me out of the house, and I called the police station to find out what my rights were. They told me that all I had to do was to file a complaint and they would escort me onto the property and make him comply with the law.

My dilemma is that I really don't want to cause his anger to go over the edge. I think the police showing up on his doorstep would do this. My reasoning for wanting to return to the house is that I am still paying in the Mortgage and I can't see spending $ on rent and on the house and not live there. It would make my life easier as far as the kids going to school and would also force he and I to start coming up with some real solutions instead of this fly by the seat of your pants stuff.

He tells me that I am only thinking of myself now and he thinks I'm being manipulative. Any thoughts on this?

Kily,

You said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">. My reasoning for wanting to return to the house is that I am still paying in the Mortgage and I can't see spending $ on rent and on the house and not live there. It would make my life easier as far as the kids going to school and would also force he and I to start coming up with some real solutions instead of this fly by the seat of your pants stuff. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see any wins in your reasoning for him?? It isn't obvious to me. So I can see why he might be thinking what he is thinking. After all he doesn't trust you and you have hurt him deeply. Plus if you move in it makes it hard for him to date someone else.

So the net to him seems to be a minus.

Now, what needs to occur is that something must be done that is a plus to him, the proverbal win-win situation. He doesn't want to be used again and I suspect he felt as if he were used and abused in this deal.

By the way your reasons make sense to me, but I am not the person who counts nor the person whose life is going to be curtailed by your presence. You must remember when it comes to fear, people are not LOGICAL. Your H fears you and his responses to you are not going to be logical. Hence the triggers and the worry of letting you back into his life. He is not sure he would survive it and since you are just emerging from the FOG, there is no track record for him to go on.

Kily, have you ever considered what makes people trust?? It is the ability to predict what someone will do. People will actually trust a liar, because they KNOW this person lies all of the time. Your actions for the past few years have destroyed your exBF's ability to predict what you will do, so he cannot trust you. How do you change this? You must over a period of time say what you will do, and then do what you say: WITHOUT FAIL. Gradually, he will become more comfortable with you and begin to trust that he can predict (based on what you say and have done) that you will infact do what you said and that you will protect him. That is his worry about the manipulation.

In a loving relationship where the partners trust one another, a lot of manipulation takes place, but it is with the knowledge and consent of the other person. It works, because the two trust each other. There have been more than a few W's that have manipulated their H's with kisses, senual suggestions, etc. Us guys know what is going on and we love it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But that is because we trust that there really is no harmful motive behind it.

Your exBF doesn't trust that you won't harm him again and you are too new out of the FOG to have a track record to point to.

Patience and time, talk to him about these things and see if there really is a win-win scenario for you moving back in.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I've managed to get XBF to agree to go to dinner with me tomorrow evening. I was toying with the idea of buying theatre tickets to see a Broadway show. Do you think that this would be "pushing" too hard?

I just want to start creating some positive memories to offset all of the negative ones. I don't want to overwhelm him either. Any thoughts?

Kily,

I don't know you or your exBF or your ages so this is hard. I would think perhaps dinner and a movie might be right. The dinner allows for conversation, and the movie is something you do together,but doesn't require conversation. It also allows you to perhaps go for coffee afterwards and just talk about the movie, not the relationship, children, or anything personal.

My guess is that he will be more comfortable and so will you. It is the reinforcement of comfort that I suspect you will be seeking.

Hopefully, others will answer and offer their advice.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

Our ages are 32 (Me) 34 (Him)

This weekend was pretty hard. I have been going through withdrawl and have no support network whatsoever to help me deal with it.

XBF and I went to dinner on Saturday and I'll say that at least we were able to sit with each other and not run away due to the uncomfotable atmosphere that surrounded us. I tried my best to be calm and honest about my feelings, and he basically stated that he "hates the site of me, wants nothing to do with me, and couldn't understand why he agreed to come in the first place. He informed me that he had no symapthy or empathy left in him towards me, and I know that without those things, he will continue to see me as the "BAD" one. Each time he brought up my faults, I acknowledged the action and apologized for it.

The emotions began to run hot when I mentioned that I wanted to move back into the house, because he feels that it's his and I have NO right to it because I chose to move out. I became frustrated because the last thing I wanted was for us to fight, especially over the house. It seems that when he is projecting his anger, the natural response that I have is to put up a wall and send anger back. When I realize that I am doing this, I retreat as gracefully as I can, but I feel like I am doing MORE damage.....

We ended up leaving the restaurant and walked to the seashore behind it. There we sat on a park bench and I began to silently cry. I was tryiing to express how much I've learned and how important I think it is to ourselves to try and work through this together. I told him how much of a hole there is in my life without him, and how sad I am that I've lost my friend of so many years. I told him that I knew there was no way to get him to change his mind about "us", and that I just wanted to be able to have his friendship again. He told me that I would have to earn his friendship and I asked if he would allow time for me to do this. He really didn't answer me on this one.

After a while we just sat in silence, just lost in thought. He abruptly decided that he was going to pick up our son, and that was the end of it. Since then, I haven't had much contact with him and he is strictly all business when he sees me. It's almost as if the wall he is building went up as high as it was when I returned from my trip.

I am so discouraged at the moment. At times I resent the treatment that he is dishing out in my direction, but I keep telling myself that he is just trying to hurt me because he has hurt so much. I just want for him to see me as a person that was afraid. I made some really bad choices, but I've learned so much and would never do this ever again.

I've also been wondering about me and what I should be doing to distract myself from the thoughts of this "failed" relationship. I'm kind of lost because I don't have any friends and I find it really hard to go out and find some. I am so lonely, scared, and down on myself that at times I feel like I'm sinking back into the darkness of depression.

Is his "rejection" of me and my efforts normal and necessary for recovery? Is my wanting to fix the family considered "normal"? What more should I be doing to heal my family?

I'm sad and needy today......

Thanks for listening.

Kily,

I really don't have answers for you on these many questions. Yes, I think it is very normal for someone to build walls to protect themselves from the pain of abandonment. Yes, it is possible for someone to turn love to hate. Yes, it is possible that this won't work out. Yes, it will take lots of time for the healing to occur.

You could view the dinner out as his venting and letting out a bit of what he is holding in.

You never answered my question concerning moving in. Where is the win-win in that move?

Who takes care of your child together? Who has most of the time with him/her? I ask this because you will be seeing him due to the child. This will take awhile, but you also need to get a life now. You were in one longterm relationship with exBF and then another for 3 years with another BF. You need to learn to live on your own. You need to learn how to make life make you happy, not just another person.

Kily, I suspect you feel all alone because you have depended on these two men, and when you weren't happy with one you switched to the other. But the other really won't solve your problem. You are young (32 is young). I had bearly been married a year at your age. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You need to know how to live and that means deriving pleasure from your job, your friends or friends you will meet, and your child. You need to see life differently.

One thing I do know, the kind of relationships you seem to have been in have seriously curtailed your ability to make friends. You are free of this right now, so go make friends, do things, and enjoy your life. I suspect as you do, several things are going to happen. One, you will attract a lot of attention from men, Two, you may in fact attract attention from your exBF but a more mature attention. Three, when you do get married you will very likely marry someone and have a good marriage, because you have learned how to live and bring happiness to yourself and by definition to other people.

Kily, you are going through a rite of passage, in my opinion. If you successfuly make it, which means learning how to really enjoy your life, then you will find very clear sailing on the other side. This is all a test.

I think it is great that you are trying to get back with exBF. That may not be possible, but what is very definitely possible is that you can through time and effort become a friend to him, remove someof the demons he fights with your apologies, and your care.

I think that is the first goal, apologies and care while becoming a friend. You don't need him and he knows it. He also suspects that this is more about your conscience than about how you really feel about HIM. The moving in is simply for YOUR convenience.

I am not trying to be harsh here. I am trying to point out how he probably views this. Kily, instead of viewing this a very bad time, I think you should be viewing it as the beginning of a good time for you no matter what your exBF decides. Work on yourself.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

This is going to be long winded, and I thank you in advance for reading. I seem to be using this forum as a way to search inward and most of what I am writing here is just my way of sorting out my thoughts and feelings. Your comments always seem to lead me somewhere so please don’t hold them back!

Your last post certainly touched me very deeply. I went away from it feeling very mixed emotionally because once again you called me on things that I’ve been struggling with. It makes me feel like there are people out there that do “get” it. Most people I talk to about my situations tell me “you have issues” and dismiss me. This is the first time, other than in therapy where I feel that working on my issues and exploring my feelings is acceptable.

I can give you no scenario that will be a win-win situation for moving back into the house. I didn’t answer your question because I thought you were raising it as food for thought. I have been really searching for an answer to this and this is what has been rolling around in my head:

I could come up with several justifications as to why I think it should happen, but the bottom line is that unless it’s something we both want, no one wins. Forcing myself on him this way will only further damage whatever it is that we have the potential to gain. He will only be resentful and angry by those actions, and I will be defensive and angry by his total blockage to recognize any of my points of view. I don’t want to push for a settlement on it either because I don’t want to open that emotional can of worms up right now. I want to wait one more year to see if any growth happens. My feelings on this are that at that time we will both be less reactive and more pro-active in making the decisions that are necessary for resolution. Sometimes I am fearful that he will take me to court and I will be left with nothing. I realize that this is just my inner child reacting and I try to dismiss this. I just have to remember at these times that this is only a possession and can be obtained again. I think the pain in this is caused from the issue of letting go of the dreams that we shared and not so much from being alone.

I understand your points about sharing time with our child and how this will allow us time to work on some type of understanding. Again I believe that I am reacting from that inner child point of view where I feel like I’ve lost all of the potential for regaining the special-ness that we shared in our relationship. I know from my own growth experience that this is simply untrue, but when I am down it’s hard to think rationally. I now see that I needed to grow without him in order to get to know me. I think he is now starting that process too and that gives me some comfort. I guess I am agreeing with the statement that I need to see life differently, that is what this three year journey has taught me. I remember when we first moved in together how terrified I was to be left alone in a house, now I’m supporting my own house and at times enjoy the solitude. I’ve come so far yet have so far to go.

As far as working on me, I am doing that EVERY chance I get. I will be the first to admit that I isolated myself from the world and hid behind relationships that enabled this process. I have been working on regaining my life, and it is only in those very insecure moments (like yesterday) that those old doubts take over. For the most part, I am satisfied with the person I have become. I love my life and am enjoying the blessing of my children. I’ve recognized how much I have lost due to depression and it makes me hypersensitive to even the simplest things that life has to offer.

I had to sit back for a minute after I read the “rite of passage comment” that you made because it struck a chord in me. I think this was the portion of the post that affected me so deeply. There were tears rolling down my eyes and I had to breathe really deeply to calm myself. I reflected on what you said for a long time after that because I didn’t understand what I was reacting to and why the impact was so deep. After clearing my mind, I began to realize that this affected me because it validated my healing process. I am at a place where I recognize the weaknesses that led to this behavior and I can address something once I understand it. Even though I didn’t choose the best routes, I am on my journey and I’m relieved to see that I have made quite a bit of progress. I am beginning to forgive myself.

I came to the understanding that I need to let XBF live and I need to live without worrying so much about trying to prove my sincerity to him. I know that I genuinely love him and will always have a special place in my heart for him. I look past his anger because it is part of his healing process. I am confident that in time he will see the differences in me and I will see the differences in him. You’re right in that we will have something more mature and I think valuable as time progresses. I need to focus on loving me.

Very reflective today.

One last thing. I decided to register for school this semester. I have been in pursuit of an EE degree for years and wasn’t sure what to do. Your words have reached me and I am doing this for me!

Kily,

An EE degree, now there is a "rite of passage". You don't leave me much to say do you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I had two thoughts. One where you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand your points about sharing time with our child and how this will allow us time to work on some type of understanding. Again I believe that I am reacting from that inner child point of view where I feel like I’ve lost all of the potential for regaining the special-ness that we shared in our relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily, as you continue on your growth phase, and your exBF does his, you two have the potential for something far more special than you ever had before. It will be so special because you will know the price. Most people who fall in love young, just do it, but they don't understand that falling in love is a feeling and staying in love has a cost. When the feeling seems to wane they think they are not "in love". And they are right. But when you "love" someone that is an act, it is not a feeling. THat is why in marriage you "commit" to the other, to love them. THere are time you might not even like them, but you still can love them. The feelings you have may be good or bad, but that doesn't change your willingness to love someone.

In a sense that is what I think you are pursuing with your exBF now. You want to "love" him, more than you want the feeling, although the feelings will come.

What I am trying to say, is that the price of being in love, is that you really should be willing to "love" that person. And yes even yourself.

My second thought, is that you ought to print out your response to me and give it to your exBF, with the explanation that "you two have a child/children?? together. It is important for him to understand who he is dealing with today, not the person of three years ago. You don't expect any action or any response, you just want him to know where you are and what you think."

And then give it to him. It may make him mad ( I don't see how), it may make him sad, or it may mean nothing to him. If it is the later then it means simply that he has more growing to do on his path. I understand he has been deeply hurt, and your decisions are the cause of that pain. I know you know this and I am sure he sees you as the source of his pain.

His response to date is to move on. Not really a bad strategy, and one I have recommended to more than a few BS's on this site. I might have even recommended it to him had he come here and told his story.

Yet, it is you here trying to see what can be made of a bad situation. I feel compelled to encourage you because I am fairly certain that no matter how it ends up YOU will benefit from trying. He will benefit from your trying. And surely your children will benefit if you two grow from this. This seems to me a win-win-win situation. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh one last piece of advice. You will never really grow up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I sure haven't, although the bod is telling me differently. It is simply that you are learning to see the world in a different perspective. From what you have said, my guess is that you are learning that there are things in the world that can hurt you, including yourself. Hence your need to have someone to be with. BUT, as you get older you learn that you can and will survive and prosper no matter what happens. When you finally realize that, then I suspect you will be where you want to be. Children need to be protected and fear the pain greatly. Adults know they cannot protect themselves from life, but can survive what life brings.

You are certainly getting to be an adult. THat is the "rite of passage" I was talking about.
You are doing well Kily, and keep up the good work.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

I took your advice and gave a print out to XBF. He read it over the weekend and had very little to say. When I prompted him about it, he stated that "Your feelings were all over the place and it doesn't show me anything". He went on to tell me how deeply I hurt him, how much damage I caused, and how I ripped his heart out. He started to bring up some of the events that had transpired throughout the time that I was running to someone else, and I told him that I was sorry for all of it. I didn't deny anything and told him that I was willing to face up to my responsibility. He was pretty sarcastic about it and kept reminding me that it was too little too late. I asked him if he noticed ANY changes over the last month and he paused for a moment. Then he became angry and shouted "No, I'm not going to answer that!"

After I prompted him with "You must really find it hard to be sitting here next to me" he agreed and said that he hated me so much that he wished I would just run away again......At that point I was a bit emotional and I started to yell at him that I wasn't going to run away anymore and that I was a human being that he would have to deal with. I tried very hard to hold my anger back and to sit there in his shoes.

I think I really lost it when I told him that I really missed his friendship and companionship in my life and he responded with "I don't miss you at all". I simply sat there for some time trying to absorb the finality of this statement. It really hurt to hear that he completely let go of everything that we experienced together and that it didn't mean a thing to him. I know that I deserve this, but it still hurt very deeply. I told him that I was sad to loose someone who was such a big part of my life and his only response was "You should have thought about this before you left me..." I guess I got angry because I was really being vulnerable and he was walking all over my feelings. This only brought up some bitterness in me for the way I was treated over the years so I started to loose my cool.

At this point, he accused me of trying to coerce him into getting my way. I told him that I was sincerely frustrated because I wanted to prove to him so much that I am serious about committing to the relationship and that things are different with me. I expressed how difficult it is for me not to be able to convey my inner feelings to him because he is so resistant to even recognizing them. He told me that I was being way too forceful and that I needed to just back off from him! He then expressed that it was "All about you". He thought that I was there just to pacify myself. I tried to express to him that we would both benefit from working on this but he didn't want to hear me. Several times he said "You just don't get it, and then refused to elaborate". I raised a point then that if it was about "me" then I would have openly moved in to the house as his brother's girlfriend did, and not cared at all about his feelings. Naturally he took this the worng way and became hostile. At this point I retreated.

Personal Observations:
1.
It's sort of strange too because I remember when we were in counseling how I used to say to him that things were in a "grey" area and he'd say to me that there was only "black and white", but yesterday when I asked him something he responded with "it's so grey that it would take more than five minutes to explain it to you and I don't have the time". I thought that it was interesting that for once he wasn't seeing in black and white.

2. Although he found it extremely difficult to have me there, and he openly states that he can't stand the sight of me, I found it interesting that he sat at the table across from me for over an hour. Twice he got up to check on our son, and returned to his place at the table. It wasn't until after the emotional outburst ocurred where he got up and wnet to sit on the porch. He could not face me anymore.

I really want for things to change here, and the last thing I wanted was for us to get into a pi$$ing contest. I apologized for the escalation and left the house immediately afterwards. He brought up some points about the house that I seem to keep going to during our arguments, and I acknowledged the validity in his statements. I told him that I jump to that issue because I get to a point where I feel that things are hopeless and that is the only thig that we still have to work out. Now that he pointed it out, I see that when I am deeply upset, it is the one thing I can use to hurt him with. Once I became aware of this, I admitted it to him and I am comitted to change that punishing type of behavior.

I sat and thought about things for a long time afterwards. I felt that I majorly LB'd and I am really sad about this. I'm trying so hard to back down when things get polarized. I am so new to backing down that I find it difficult to do and now I'm afraid that I've made things 10 times worse than before.

I've been reading "How one person can save the marriage" and some of the techniques I am trying to practice. I see the validity in fixing your own needs, and I'm really trying to change my behaviors. This is all so hard.

Ultimately, I feel as if I've had a major setback, and I want to hide again. I plan on NC with him for a few weeks other than being around our son because nothing I do or say is being received openly. I'm afraid that I've lost the opportunity to reach him.

Thanks for listening.

Kily,

I don't think you made things worse, in fact I think you helped things more than you realize. For one thing you learned how you use the house to get to him. I will point a few things out that I see in a few moments. Next, it was good that he reacted to what you said. You have planted seeds Kily, that is all you can do is plant them and hope they grow.

In one paragraph you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At this point, he accused me of trying to coerce him into getting my way. I told him that I was sincerely frustrated because I wanted to prove to him so much that I am serious about committing to the relationship and that things are different with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kily, you two have a child together but you DON'T have a relationship. That is one point I feel he is trying to make to you. You basically left him 3 years ago, if I recall the numbers right. You were not married and he has done his best to move on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I expressed how difficult it is for me not to be able to convey my inner feelings to him because he is so resistant to even recognizing them. He told me that I was being way too forceful and that I needed to just back off from him! He then expressed that it was "All about you". He thought that I was there just to pacify myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well in a way you are trying to pacify yourself. It has been all about you as you try to repair the relationship. I suspect what he is saying is that you need to take his feelings and his responses to you into account. For example before you start talking relationships with him, you need to develop one. The old one, as I said earlier, is dead. He can only remember the pain because to remember the good times would cause him to reflect on all he lost, and how hurt he was.

My guess is that he feels that you decided to end the relationship and you are deciding when it should start up again. I suspect he feels that he ought to have some say in this and he doesn't feel that he does.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tried to express to him that we would both benefit from working on this but he didn't want to hear me. Several times he said "You just don't get it, and then refused to elaborate".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you get it now?? You see he doesn't feel it is in his best interests to let you dictate his life or to return to a relationship with you. Do you see why he might feel this way?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I raised a point then that if it was about "me" then I would have openly moved in to the house as his brother's girlfriend did, and not cared at all about his feelings. Naturally he took this the worng way and became hostile. At this point I retreated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, this one was a big LB. Right? Why? You tell me why this was a big LB.

Kily, my responses to you sound pretty depressing don't they? But, I don't think this is true. He obviously has very deep feeling for you. Can he heal enough to ever really trust you in a relationship? I don't know. Can he learn to trust you enough so that you two can raise your child together and get along. Yes, he can.

He is finally getting to say to you all of things he has wanted to say over the years, when he was trying desperately to save the relationship. He needs to get this off of his chest. He needed to see what you wrote. He will remember it and it will take a time for it to work in sort of like lubricant and a rusty bolt. It does take time.

My guess it that when you go over to see your son, at the house, take something for exBF. Just a little something, some candy, a sandwich, ask him if he will eat with you. Talk about his job, your job, the weather, your son. Talk about plans, hopes and dreams. Do this for months, many months and gradually very gradually I suspect you might see the rust come away.

Personally, I think many of his responses to you were very informative and while hurtful, were more expressions of his hurt than his attempt to hurt you. I don't think he expected you to be hurt by them. Remember he doesn't believe or understand why YOU would be doing this other than there was something "in it for you". In his view, you couldn't possibly care for him or you would have responded to his efforts.

You see you haven't addressed his happiness yet. Why do you think you are the one to make him happy? What will be special? Not what was special. In fact, I have a question for you.

If you were to meet your exBF today, and there was no child, no past, Would you date him? Is he a man you could love? This is very important because if you have doubts you need to be mindful of your objectives here. Are you just doing this to relieve your guilt or because he is a man you could love?

He indirectly and directly asked you some very deep and important questions. He sounds as if his head is actually screwed on pretty well. You need to think about what he said very carefully and don't let your hurts override what is there.

I don't think I have given you any real advice. My take on this exchange was that it was very good, and you should learn more from it than he learned from the post here. But, the potential is there for both of you to learn alot. THe only issue is will you and he?

God Bless,

JL

JL,

I'm working on a response to your last post, but I want to give it the time it deserves in order to address the points you raised as honestly as I can.....

Thanks by the way for challenging me.

I really am looking for insight into a small event and I figured you were the person to ask.

Monday night XBF had a therapy session so we agreed in advance that he was going to pick up DS afterschool and that I would swing by and pick up DS prior to the session time. Well, I pulled up in the driveway at 6:30. XBF appointment was scheduled for 7:00 and I figured that this gave him more than enough time to drive there.

When I arrived at the house, no one was there. I immediately became concerned because XBF has been working quite a bit lately and I thought that perhaps DS was still at the Daycare. I placed a call on my cell phone and XBF answers. It turns out that he decided to take DS to the ice skating rink to sign up for lessons. He then directed me to pick him up there. (NO POLITE REQUEST WAS MADE!)

I paused for a moment because I was a bit angry, and then after counting to ten, I calmly agreed to meeting them there.

Let me digress for a moment and add that the reason I was angry was that nothing was mentioned to me about these lessons. I was feeling excluded and hurt because it was a decision that I felt we both should be making.

After cooling down, I decided that the important thing was that DS was getting a great opportunity, and I was willing to let go of my pride. I figured that his father's intentions were great and he had his reasons for not sharing the details with me. It still hurt, but the anger was gone.

When I arrived at the skating rink, I didn't say very much to XBF other than the surface level stuff. After the argument I described in my last post, I decided that I would not push anything on him so I figured that this was the best way to go about things. When I left, I wished him well in therapy, and told him that I would talk to him the next day. I drove off feeling in a decent mood because I felt at peace with the way I handled things.

Little did I know that this wasn't the end of it. About 1/2 hour after his session ended I received a call on my cell phone from XBF. He was very agitated and was looking to pick a fight with me. His first point was "why didn't you acknowledge me in the parking lot when you picked DS up?" I responded with: "We've been at each other's throats lately so I figured it was better to just let you be." Then he continues with: "Why didn't you answer me on the telephone when I asked you to pick DS up at the rink? I was standing in that guys ffice looking like a fool waiting for you to answer me." I was a little suprised at this, but I told him the truth, that I was angry and I took a minute to calm down so that I could talk rationally on the telephone. His next rage went something like "I don't want you to think that I was doing this behind your back. I had it noted on my calendar and only realized last minute that this had to be done today. I've been promising him for months and this is the first opportunity that I had to get him lessons." My response was: "I think that it is wonderful that you did this for him. I know how much he will enjoy it. Yes, I was a little annoyed at first, but I realized that you were doing this for DS, and I knew that you had your reasons for not including me in the decision. It hurt me to not be involved, but I trust your judgement."

I realized at that point that he was trying to get me to fight with him, and I also realized that the more he tried, the calmer I became. I was frustrated because I didn't understand what this was all about, and I knew that nothing I would say on the phone that night would have led to anything productive. He was in a weird mood and I was just a target. Finally he states: "This conversation is going in the wrong direction. I need to go" and then he hangs up the phone.

I realize that this is the line that I use lately when our emotions have escalated and the conversation becomes a sparring match. I will often say this then say that I inteded for a calm discussion and then apologize that it got carried away.

Mainly I'm just trying to understand what this was really about? I have a suspicion that he wanted attention from me, but didn't want me to know this. Can you shed some light on it for me?

Kily,

You stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realized at that point that he was trying to get me to fight with him, and I also realized that the more he tried, the calmer I became. I was frustrated because I didn't understand what this was all about, and I knew that nothing I would say on the phone that night would have led to anything productive. He was in a weird mood and I was just a target. Finally he states: "This conversation is going in the wrong direction. I need to go" and then he hangs up the phone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is good, very good. He is learning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize that this is the line that I use lately when our emotions have escalated and the conversation becomes a sparring match. I will often say this then say that I inteded for a calm discussion and then apologize that it got carried away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you do, and he has learned from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mainly I'm just trying to understand what this was really about? I have a suspicion that he wanted attention from me, but didn't want me to know this. Can you shed some light on it for me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My guess this is about several things. One thing it is about you won't understand and neither will I. He seems to be struggling within himself about many things having to do with you. You won't understand this because you haven't been where he is. Neither have I. So just let it ride.

However, I think you need to realize that he used your phrase and backed off. I interpret this as a very good thing. He could have vented, gotten angry, and yelled at you, but he didn't. Was it to protect him? I don't think so. It was to protect you. His counselor it seems has gotten him thinking and he is struggling.

Kily, he is in an awful spot. I am sure he has strong feelings for you: hate and love. They are warring in him and he doesn't know what to do. THe easiest would be to leave you and never see you again, but you two have a child together. However, when he sees you he remembers the good times and the very bad times. How does he deal with these triggers? He doesn't know and I sure don't know. Which means you don't know either.

That is why I mentioned to you that you need to start slowly and build a "new" relationship with him. You need to become his friend again and gradually very gradually things will start to sort themselves out. It may come to be that he will learn to talk to you, and you will learn to listen to him. Right now it seems you listen to him,but only from your point of view. Eventually, you will need to listen to him from both points of view. Not trivial, but it is part of your growth path to learn this.

Hang in there, it seems to me that things could be much worse.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

I finally have some time to sit down and address the last series of questions that you posed to me in your post.

I had to sit and really soul search for a lot of the answers because the topics and questions were really painful ones to address. In fact, I sat and typed up a ten-page response to this, and decided not to send it because it was an “emotional reaction” to the situation that I am now living in. I decided to give it some time and space so that the answers were not influenced by my selfish reactions.

As far as he and I and a relationship are concerned, I think that the accurate synopsis is that we are both struggling to establish a definition of what our relationship is now. I agree that the “relating” to each other stopped many years ago, and that’s when the power struggle started. Ultimately, I am finally accepting that he has decided to let me go. This really hurts me because the inner child never believed for a moment that we would forever part. This is irrational and probably some of the FOG still burning off. We both needed to grow because our relationship was stuck, and because I was so completely co-dependant at the time, my instincts were to turn to someone new to save me. I see now that this was a big shock to him. He didn’t understand that my needs weren’t being met because I was passively accepting everything that HE wanted. In doing this, his needs for the most part were being met and I was becoming increasingly unstable. Once I realized that I felt this way, I openly admitted to myself that I never wanted to loose him, I really only wanted our relationship to heal. I was so self-destructive and completely lost. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I see your point about me pacifying myself. I honestly didn’t look at the situation from any other point of view other than my own. I was thinking that since he fought so hard to make me “see the light” that he would naturally want this. I’ve been coming on like GANG BUSTERS because I thought that it would show him how serious I was about committing to working through all of this. I certainly didn’t see that I am forcing something on him that he doesn’t want. The last thing I want to do is to put anyone in that position. I felt that way for a year and if he had just backed off, and held my hand instead of screaming and demanding things, I would have definitely responded sooner than I did.

I am truly happy that the old relationship is dead. I’d be the first one to dance at the funeral service for it because it was THAT difficult for the last few years. So I’m sure that you’re scratching your head right now and you’re wondering: “Why does she want to go back if she feels this way?” I have to grin because sometimes I ask the same question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I’ll answer this after I address the house and the BIG LB incident. You asked me why I thought that this was a big LB and the answer that I have is that He has spent almost a year on his own there, and in his eyes it is his territory. He has continued to build his life there, after I ran. I chose to leave without any real input from him, and now he interprets my position as threatening because I’m choosing to come back there without any input from him. It gets back to him feeling that he has a right to his feelings, possessions, and I’m not respecting them. Again this isn’t where I am coming from, but I can see his position and I can respect his wishes.

Getting back to why I would want to try to heal this. You wrote:

If you were to meet your exBF today, and there was no child, no past, Would you date him? Is he a man you could love? This is very important because if you have doubts you need to be mindful of your objectives here. Are you just doing this to relieve your guilt or because he is a man you could love?

Part of the answer is in these questions that you posted. Today, regardless of the child we share, I really WANT to date him. I’m extremely excited about the possibility of getting to know him all over again. He is someone that I do love, always have loved, and always will love. I realize that we are not “in love” with each other, but after reading many posts here, I realize that this can change. I am not the same person that I was when we were together, and I realize that he is not the same either. I am confident that if he opened the door just a crack, he would be amazed at what is on the other side. I’m already amazed at the changes even though he is mostly RAGING at the moment.

What I strongly feel is that I was a child in that relationship and I was looking for him to meet all of my needs. He was doing the best he could, but I didn’t recognize his position AT ALL. I’ve done tremendous amounts of personal work, and have truly discovered inner peace and my spirituality. I have learned to take care of my needs, and how to talk to my inner child. I have learned how to truly LOVE myself, forgive myself for the things that I have done and can’t change. I’m open to the lessons that these experiences had to offer and am no longer afraid of the unknown. I guess this is what you were referring to as my “right of passage”, and now that I am here, the next wave of my spiritual growth has started.

Approaching life from a conscious place is the difference that will allow for closure or for healing. When we were in that relationship, I was winging things with no sense of direction. It was all about being right and fulfilling a void that was inside of me. At that time I was in so much pain that I couldn’t even think straight. I was ANGRY and blamed my partner for everything. I couldn’t even begin to want to do anything for him because I was so closed off. The change has affected me in funny ways. Instead of pulling away, I WANT to do so many things to just show him how special I think he is. I WANT to just take him in my arms and simply hold him. I WANT to pamper him and spend every day of my life by his side. The strange thing is, I don’t WANT anything in return for this. I just have a strong desire to hear his laugh, see the light in his eyes of delight as we share something really personal, and to simply “be” with him. This is just the tip of the iceberg, and I realize that he used to want this and I rejected him over and over. Now I can only step back, and pray that he may remember positive things that we shared. I know in my heart that what we had wasn’t even touching the surface of what our potential as a couple is. I can only hope that he starts to see me as I really am. I will continue to work on me because that is really all I can do at the moment. I realize that I can’t force him to want this, just as he couldn’t force me to want it when he tried. I can see our life together very clearly in my mind, and as much as I may want this, I accept that it may never be.

I want to close this post with some feedback from the therapy session that I had with his IC on Monday. We sat and talked about anger, and the approaches that I have been trying while dealing with that anger. During the session he congratulated me on the efforts that I was making. After a while we talked about me. I described the “click” that I felt when my perspective changed and the counselor then said “You look and carry yourself completely different than the first time I saw you in the office. I definitely see the change in you. I feel like I’m talking to an adult instead of a child.” That was a pretty defining moment for me because I knew that something changed, and here was a professional validating this. Sometimes it’s easy to think something, but it’s not believeable until someone else picks up on it.

Thanks for listening. I know this was a long one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kily,

Glad to see your last post. Go back and read all of your posts here, and YOU will see many things and I believe all of them are good. You are changing.

So, you still want to try huh?? Are you up for some planning and devious moves? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think you should do to him what you want to do. If you feel like giving him hug, do it and then smile and leave. So perhaps do it when you two are with your child and you are getting ready to leave. Or just give him a kiss or a pat. Something physical and perhaps a compliment. Then smile and walk away. You are going to drive that man crazy. He will want to hate you, but he will feel your feelings. He will want to talk, but he won't dare.

This may take months but as time passes and your attitude towards him stays this positive, he will respond. Perhaps with anger at first, surely confusion, and then gradually you will start to see he just "might" become your friend again.

If this is what you want you will need to plant the seeds that tell him you have changed, and then you will have to carefully nuture them and watch them grow. One word of caution though. Don't do this if you feel resentment. Stop doing it if you start to feel resentment. This has to be something you actually enjoy doing and look forward to doing. Because it will take a long time and his responses will probably be like a roller coaster. Talk to him about his girl friend. Not in a negative way, but a positive way. Help him if he is confused about her.

You may lose him to her, but wouldn't you rather see him happy. However, the odds are good this girl friend relationship will end as most do. And you will have become his friend again. If nothing goes beyond that your child will benefit greatly, and there is the possibility that he will actually see and notice the new you.

So think about this and let me know what you think and what your plans are.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Kily,
I just spent a bit of time trying to read your posts quickly before I go to work. JL is great isn't he?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Here is My Story . If you like, feel free to ask me anything about anything. H and I are getting ready for our First Anniversary of Recovery. Oct 6th will be one year. It has been at time hard but over all WELL WORTH IT TEN THOUSAND FOLD!!!
My story has details about pain, mine and his. It also tells how I worked to put it back together.
I don't pretend to know all the answers, but I do know how good it feels to have someone to talk to that ABSOLUTELY KNOWS what you are feeling.
Hope you have a good day, I'll check in later.