Mrs. WLD,

Thank You for your gift. At this moment in my life it certainly hits home. I completetly realted to everything and there are so many paralells, including the coke bottle eye glasses. At least I was able to solve that problem with Lasik surgery. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

A few things you talked about during your posts really effected me. In one specific one you were talking about beeping your husband with your old Love code because it felt "Right". That is exactly what I'm feeling when I want to just simply hold XBF. It just feels like the right thing to do. The other thing that you said that totally blew me away was that "You missed yourself". It was very painful and heartening at the same time to read this because this is exactly what I feel! I never knew myself at all until I got through all of this. Even if XBF never again opens the door, I am an extremely blessed woman because I also have discovered that I am beautiful both inside and out.

There are many quetions I have, but time is running out on my lunch hour. I have a therapy session tonight, but will try to jot them down.

Again Thanks,

JL,

I'm truly grateful for you. I have a simple strategy in mind but nothing concrete planned. I was hoping that just by being my "authentic" self, and truly loving him "unconditionally" I would be allowing nature to take care of things. Maybe this might be too passive, but at this time he has only allowed me to touch him once, and that was to rub his forearm when I was wishing him a good night out and saying goodbye. I was shocked that this took place.

I like your suggestions about giving him an unexpected hug here or there. Truthfully a very small insignificant event happened yesterday that I want to bring up.

We had a rendesvous to swap our son at the playground after work. When we arived, I received the usual cold shoulder but I didn't try to change it this time. Instead, I grabbed my son's hand and we started playing "witch and the castle" (kind of like a prisoner escape/sentinal kind of game) and I truly relished in every moment. Mr. Stephen (My little guy) would riun in and out of the hiding places and Dad and I would try to catch him. It was quite fun even if DAD and I spent no time together.

Well during the game I had to go to the porta- potty. The town that we were in is very affluent and the porta-potty was cleaner than my own bathroom! Well as I was opening the door I noticed a family that was sort of looking for something. I inquired and discovered that the daughter had lost a silver cross and they wanted to find it. I forgot everything and began to help in the hunt. A few minutes later my young son and his father joined in! I was suprised, but we weren't succesful in our venture.

Afterwards, Dad had to run. He had plans to meet someone. We walked back to the cars to get Mr. S's bookbag and lunchbox. At the car, Dad and I stopped. We started talking about normal stuff. The funny thing was that during the whole conversation we were looking into one another's eyes, and although much was said, there was a lot of unsaid things going through my mind. I actually felt myself "checking him out" and really seeing him for the first time.

I'm not sure what his thoughts were, but I can say that I saw no hatred or anger there. I can't really say what it was, but I went away feeling peaceful. The last thing I said to him was "You look really good." He has lost about 30 LBS and his eyes were very sharp and clear. I sincerely meant the compliment he deserved it. He responded with "Thanks." and then turned and left.

I'm only raising this story to point out that this was a moment where I was being my authentic self. In helping that girl, the better qualities of "me" were shining, and the family joining in the search created a very small "moment". For just a few minutes, everything was put aside, and it felt really wonderful to be a part of.

I'll think about that plan.

God Bless you both,
Thanks.

P.S.
By the way KILY was a nickname that he gave me when we first started dating. It stood for "Kimberly, I love You."

I will always be KILY because now I'm the one loving me!

Kily,
Just a quick Good Morning to you. Lucky you that you COULD have LASIK. My eyes are too bad (-16!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I thank God that I can at least wear contact lenses!!!!
It is nice to hear all the things you are learning about yourself. I remember looking at myself through other people's eyes and hating what I had become. It was quite easy to make some of those changes, I simply stopped those disdainful behaviours! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> However a lot more of them come with time, prayer and patience.
Hope you have a great day! Not sure what my weekend will be like, but I will come back as I can...

Hi Mrs. WLD,

Thanks for checking in. Today I'm feeling blue so it's nice to have someone pop in to see how I am.

When you first came out of your FOG:

Did you feel like everything you did was the wrong thing?

Did you get to a place where you didn't even want contact with th OM any longer?

The idea of even talking with him makes me cringe! It's funny but right after the "click" I just felt that this was completely the wrong thing! From that moment on, my desire to be in his presence diminshed at an astronomical rate. I started to try to figure out ways to let him down easy and then decided that the NC letter was exactly what I WANTED to do.

Was there a time when your husband was so angry that he didn't even want to know you?

How did you get through the "really" low points when it seemed that it was hopeless that you would ever re-establish the trust?

It's funny because you and I have even more in common than I at first realized. I actually started going to MC with the OP too! While relecting on this, I find it really sad and I feel a great loss because I really gave up on me. I'm really angry with myself for being so scared.

Lately, I have been trying to reach XBF from the heart and even though he continually props the barrier up between us, I continue trying to show him I've changed. I realized that if I died tomorrow, I would really regret that I never had a second chance to show him what Love truly is.

JL made a comment that if I started to feel resentment then I should withdraw my efforts, but I see that resentment arises from an unmet expectation. It's not fair that I would resent him because he chose to move on!

Did you feel resentment at the treatment that your husband gave you during recovery?

I have a couple of Don Henly's lyrics swimming in my head:

"You can't be with someone new, and you can't go back to him.......You're beginning to realize that it's sink or swim......I'm learning to live without you now, the more I know the less I understand..........I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter, but everything changes and my thoughts seem to scatter but I think it's about Forgiveness.....even if you don't love me anymore." <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Then I think about these Lyrics by Peter Gabrielle:

Accepting all the things I've done, I want to stand and stare again, Till there's nothing left out, Oh all that remains there in your eyes......
and I will touch this tender wall till I know I'm home again.............All my instincts, they return and the Grand facade so soon will burn, without a noise without my pride, I reach out from the inside........
In your eyes, the light the heat, I am complete, I see a doorway, a thousand churches, the resolution of all the fruitless searches...It's in your eyes.

Basically, that is where I am at and my heart is in these lyrics. How do you express this to someone who gave up hope?

Have a nice weekend.

Gosh those words are sooooooooooooo

Kily,

I do love that name now that I understand where it came from. You know it came from a man that loved you very much. I suspect he still does deep down, that sort of love doesn't just die, but it can be driven deep deep down.

I don't have much time today and will be traveling next week, so my time here will be very limited. I am glad that Mrs. WLD is here for you to talk to.

All I can say is have patience with yourself and exBF. You will be rewarded of that I am sure.

God Bless,

JL

OOPS

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Mrs WLD ]</small>

Hi Kily,
I too love the nickname! Not only is it special to you, but it is also pretty! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Now, lets see if I can answer these questions for you?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>

When you first came out of your FOG:
Did you feel like everything you did was the wrong thing? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I felt very unsure of almost everything I did. I wanted constant reassurance, from family, friends and even folks at work. I felt incapable of making even the smallest decisions. DROVE ME NUTS!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Did you get to a place where you didn't even want contact with th OM any longer? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OH YEAH!! I surprised me that it came to quickly. I missed him and yet I wanted nothing to do with him. When my pager would go off, before I changed to number, I would get knots in my stomach if I saw that it was a voice mail. That meant that he was yelling at me for something stupid. So it got to a point that I was making excuses to be busy so that I didn?t have to call him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>The idea of even talking with him makes me cringe! It's funny but right after the "click" I just felt that this was completely the wrong thing! From that moment on, my desire to be in his presence diminshed at an astronomical rate. I started to try to figure out ways to let him down easy and then decided that the NC letter was exactly what I WANTED to do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GOOD FOR YOU!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Was there a time when your husband was so angry that he didn't even want to know you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I?m not sure of that one. I would imagine so, but he never verbalized it as such.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>How did you get through the "really" low points when it seemed that it was hopeless that you would ever
re-establish the trust? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I kept praying and when H would be unsure of me, I would work even harder to show him that he can trust me. I hurt a lot for a long time. But I had to keep reminding myself that I did this to myself. I destroyed his trust in me. So it was up to me to rebuild it. Starting with changing my pager # and cell #. Giving him access to my whole life, inviting him to just stop by and visit me at work any time? But to get me through, I would come HERE and read posts about other folks and how they made it. Coming here has always been a nice haven, when I am depressed or sad or angry...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>It's funny because you and I have even more in common than I at first realized. I actually started going to MC with the OP too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> While relecting on this, I find it really sad and I feel a great loss because I really gave up on me. I'm really angry with myself for being so scared. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate to the anger thing... I am still furious with myself that the whole disgusting thing happened. But most of the time I remind myself, look where I am now. Look what I have done to repair the problems we had. It takes a STRONG person to come back from where I was...and I did it! Even if H and I didn?t get back together, it still took a lot to recognize that "I" was gone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Did you feel resentment at the treatment that your husband gave you during recovery? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I think I answered this one just a bit ago. It was hard for me to not react with anger at his questions about my time. I mean c'mon on, I am telling the truth now, couldn't he see that? Um...NO!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It took years for us to get to the point that we were at when I filed for divorce, of course it would take more than a few weeks to fix it all. But I had felt the ZING in my heart, I KNEW that I was here for real. So I knew that I had a lot of work to do, and I was ready to do it. No matter what. No matter how much pain it caused ME.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>I have a couple of Don Henly's lyrics swimming in my head:

"You can't be with someone new, and you can't go back to him.......You're beginning to realize that it's sink or swim......I'm learning to live without you now, the more I know the less I understand..........I've been trying to get down to the heart of the matter, but everything changes and my thoughts seem to scatter but I think it's about Forgiveness.....even if you don't love me anymore." <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Then I think about these Lyrics by Peter Gabrielle:

Accepting all the things I've done, I want to stand and stare again, Till there's nothing left out, Oh all that remains there in your eyes......
and I will touch this tender wall till I know I'm home again.............All my instincts, they return and the Grand facade so soon will burn, without a noise without my pride, I reach out from the inside........
In your eyes, the light the heat, I am complete, I see a doorway, a thousand churches, the resolution of all the fruitless searches...It's in your eyes.

Basically, that is where I am at and my heart is in these lyrics. How do you express this to someone who gave up hope?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes the best way to express things is without any words at all. One thing really struck me about one of the conversations H and I had was that he said I was not SHOWING him that I wanted to stay married. I was all talk. So when we got back together I knew I had to show him. OM was a photographer, as I am, and we took lots of pictures together. One night I built a fire in our fireplace and destroyed everything, even the negatives. That included all the pictures he took of me, I took when I was WITH him and even some pictures that I was especially proud of. I work a lot in B&W film and I had quite a few pieces of art in that collection. I burned it all. Even my art. THAT HURT. But I wanted to do whatever I could to show that I was sincere.

This has been long, and something tells me that it won?t be the last one like it!!
Kily, it is very nice to meet you. Feel free to tap my brain any time!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good Morning Kily!
Just wanted to say hope you have a good day. I may not be around too much this w/e, we both have a rare w/e off! Tomorrow is my b'day so we are just doing a family thing... You have been on my mind a lot, wondering how you are doing. Just keep telling yourself that no matter what the outcome, you are also doing this for YOU! You will only continue to feel better about yourself and your son will even notice the difference.
What do you do for a living? Just thought I'd ask something off topic... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Mrs WLD. Good Morning to you.

Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday,Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday to you.......imagine your favorite sweets in front of you now.

You're information sure helps. I had a really hard weekend. So it was nice to come in to work and read your post.

This is a BIG VENT here, so please bear with me while I unload......

Saturday was my older son's 14th birthday so the four of us decided to get together on Sunday night for dinner. XBF was extremely angry and I could feel the resentment seeping out of him, but it was his idea to get together for dinner. My younger son must have been feeding off of dad because he was copmpletely unco-operative and unruly. The stress level went up 10 notches in less than five minutes.

His hostility brancehd from the fact that he asked me to care for our son becaus he had some "work" to do. He was preparing for another business trip, and said that he had some loose ends to tie up. Normally, I wouldn't hesitate to take DS. My reaction to him on this day was No though. He was furious with this and demanded to know what my reasons were. I tried to remain calm.

My decision was made based on the fact that he was going out of town for the fourth time in three weeks, and I have been assuming responsibility for our younger son over and above the norm. It's at the point where DAD snaps his fingers and I am there! I've been feeling like I'm taken for granted and I felt that it was time to set some boundaries. As it is I have DS for two nights and this would be a third. Please don't read this the wrong way because I absolutely love being with my DS it's just that I feel as if I have no say in the matter at all!

I suppose the right thing to do would have been to simply say yes, but I feel that I need to put my foot down before I get really resentful. This is something that I've always had a hard time with, and it's an important step in recovery. In taking a stand for my feelings, I'm saying that "I'm important too! I'm not a doomat!"

The truth in all of this is that he wanted to meet his girlfriend and hang with her when we were done and instead of being HONEST about it, he was using his job as an excuse! I recognized the FOG talk immediately, and I have to admit that I was angry that he LIED, not that he was going out with her. Why does he feel he needs to hide this from me? It hurt because he is constantly punishing me for that kind of behavior, but at the same time he doesn't practice what he preaches. Baiscally he's a hypocrite and it hurt because I REALLY am making an effort here.

Well to get back to the story, I had planned on spending some time alone reading one of my self help books and getting in touch with my inner child. I also had clothes strewn all over the house because my dryer is busted and I was trying to dry my clothes. I felt that this was not suitable for DS to have to deal with. There was literally no place to sit, other than the floor. Basically I had my reasons for saying "NO" and I felt that he should have respected my answer. He felt that I was being an unreasonable person who couldn't do him a single favor. Well, the situation resolved itsself by him asking me to take my son with me when I dropped the older boy at his dad's house. He explained that he was going to work to grab his laptop and I asked him if he would give me the key so I could bring DS insdide while we waited for him to get home. He assured me that he would be right back at the house by the time I got there so I agreed. I felt we were both being reasonable and had no problem with the resolution.

Then I arrive at the house. He is no-where to be found! I call the cell and I get no answer. Of course I leave a message saying that I will check to see if he's at work and if not then I would be waiting at the house. Needless to say he was no-where to be found! I knew who he was with, and I was completely furious and hurt because he blindsided me! At that point, I left him another message that basically told him that his actions were now mirroring the ones that he had been complaining about for so long in me. I'm just glad that I am aware enough to see the pattern.

The whole incident became VERY ugly and he ended up showing up at my house. My DS was traumatized by the whole thing, and I am feeling very mixed emotions right now.

In some ways I am really glad that I stood up for myself, but I feel that this was counter productive to what I'm trying to accomplish in my life. I don't want to be reduced to defending myself, and pointing out his faults. This is one of those one step forward, two steps back and fall off a cliff incidents.

I know that when I confronted him about his actions he became really furious. His words went something like "Yes, I lied, but I learned from the best." I guess this was meant to hurt me and knock me back in my place. My response to this was "I admit that I have real bad habits, but I'm changing them and am committed to something better for everyone." I then said "You can try to punish me all you want but I have forgiven myself for what I can't change, so I don't feel guilty any more." I felt really proud to say that to him because it was the truth.

After more arguing, I said at one point "Why are we still on the telephone arguing. You want this over, so why are we doing this? I then said "I think that maybe there are two people that are really hurting deep down inside and who really love each other, and if they could let go of the external s**t, maybe some healing can start." He of course then gave me the "I don't love you speech." Blah Blah Blah!

I think I'm done. Thanks for letting me rant. One thing that struck me was that during all of this he told me he was angry becaue he felt I was trying to get us back together and because I am wearing my engagement ring. Why is this a bother to him? I am not asking him for anyhing. I told him some time ago that I was wearing it to remind me of the commitment I have to improving my life. If he doesn't care about me and want this, why should this matter?

I'm upset with myself for letting my emotions take over. I really want to become emotionally close to him and this was just too much! I know that my actions weren't great especially after I moved out and I am beign accountable for that now, but why is he feeling that it is okay for him to act this way? If he had just been honest and said "I'm meeting J for an hour or so drop DS of at 8:00", this whole blow-up would never have happened. In some ways, I'm sorry that it did, but in other ways I'm not because we both definately recognized that his behavior is not much better than my own. I guess it makes me see that I AM human, and HE is not as saintly as he wants me to believe he is. This sounds judgemental. I guess I was feeling very beat up and guilty because he continuously reminds me of my faults. I've been buying into it and not seeing the whole picture.

I know my perspective on this whole thing will change when I'm feeling loving towards him and not anger, but it helps to write it out now while I feel it.

Now, some off the topic stuff:

I work as an Engineering Technician for a start up company in central CT. My job is really interesting because I get to support a design Engineer from conception to completion of a piece of hardware. I get to draw the electonic design out in a CAD system, I could do it by hand too but those days are long gone. I also find and buy the parts that will be needed to make the boards. I build them by hand when necessary too. This is fun because some of the components are so small that you have to look under a specail magnifyer to see them. Now that I have my Lasik, I can do this without the viewer, but it takes PATIENCE! I test the boards out, and fix them when they aren't functioning properly. The product that my company makes is really interesting. We make video encoders and decoders that actually stream through a company's intranet real time. We also have internet transmisson that is pretty incredible to watch. Sometimes I have been tasked to test new software. This is fun because I actually get to watch DVD's at my desk and get paid big $$$ to do it! It's fun, but I want to get deeper into the design work. I'm hoping to finish my BSEE soon and that willl definately get me in the right place.

Thanks for listening.

Hi Kily,
I'm sorry that I didn't get here last night, I had a meeting to get to. Let me try to re-read this and post some of my thoughts...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>
This is something that I've always had a hard time with, and i's an important step in recovery. In taking a stand for my feelings, I'm saying that "I'm important too! I'm not a doomat!"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right in this, as long as you still convey it in a loving way. Now IS the time to stand up for yourself, but carefully. You just don't want to come across like you want to pick a fight and be a brat, even though he will think that anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You want to know inside yourself that you are doing it for the right reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Why does he feel he needs to hide this from me? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like his conscious is working here. It seems as though SOME part of him is trying to spare your feelings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>In some ways I am really glad that I stood up for myself, but I feel that this was counter productive to what I'm trying to accomplish in my life. I don't want to be reduced to defending myself, and pointing out his faults. This is one of those one step forward, two steps back and fall off a cliff incidents. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is. And it may not be the last. Keep defending yourself, in a NON-LB'ING WAY!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>"You can try to punish me all you want but I have forgiven myself for what I can't change, so I don't feel guilty any more." I felt really proud to say that to him because it was the truth. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sure this DID feel good to tell him. It is nice to have that feeling of self forgivness. I am still working on that one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Here is some constructive criticism... The image I have in my mind is of you crossing your arms and stomping your foot while you say that. You are daring him to punish you by saying that like that, see? Perhaps a different way could have been "I am sorry that I can't erase the pain I have caused you. I know you haven't forgiven me, but I have forgiven myself and am committed to showing you that I am sorry." This doesn't put him on the defensive and you still get to point out that you have forgiven yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Why is this a bother to him? I am not asking him for anyhing. I told him some time ago that I was wearing it to remind me of the commitment I have to improving my life. If he doesn't care about me and want this, why should this matter? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like some wires are crossing here. He is letting you know that he cares enough to notice and then notices that HE noticed...kinda like a catch 22. He sounds like he is finding himself caring that you are wearing it and being angry about it at the same time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>...but why is he feeling that it is okay for him to act this way?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he is hurting still. It will take a while and a lot more of your hurt feelings until things get better. There could be so many things in his head, emotions that he wants you to know about....fear, love, anger to name a few. Doesn't mean that he knows how to express it all.

I have just read this again and I HOPE I don't sound like I know it all. I sure don't!! But having been there I can give you perspective. KEEP COMING HERE!!! Even if you don't feel like posting, read!! I read so much and still do, others folks problems and the solutions that are given. I have gained SO MUCH insight into the finer details of marraige. It is incredible. I find myself thinking about and integrating a lot of the stuff here into my other close relationships as well.
I'm off to watch a movie for tonight. You are in my thoughts and prayers,

Kily,

I've read all your posts in this thread with empathy as I understand the pain of wanting so desperately to make things "right" with your ex, only to be repeatedly met with anger and coldness.
In my case, my ex took a rather passive, almost "let her get it out of her system" approach to my affair. In reality, all his emotions associated with the devastation of betrayal were being suppressed. He spent the last several months of our marriage immersed in his own affair, seeking to lick the wounds of his ego I helped to destroy. During this period his attitude became even more indifferent towards our union and he started to initiate talks of splitting; "remaining the best of friends and parents although divorced." In retrospect I see that his own fog had dampered any clear rational thinking on his part also.

Only when his affair blew apart did the years of intense hurt and anger spill forth and manifest itself as hatred. I too have heard the words...." you taught me how to lie and cheat....".

It's been two years since we've split. I've heard that he's 'very happy' with his current live-in girlfriend whom he "never fights with and laughs at all his jokes....." We tend to fall in love with those who make us feel great about ourselves.

The incredible disdain he's shown towards me I think may be finally ebbing. Although, he still has difficulty making eye contact during the rare occasions in which we speak in person, and he unfortunately tends to use our son as the 'communicator to mom.' No amount of heartfelt apologies seems to have hastened this process. I think only time can transform the hate into civility.

I'm glad that the intense introspection you've been doing seems to be offering you some peace, regardless of the outcome.
(BTW, I see that we're 'neighbors'; I live in a burb of Hartford) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 25, 2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Who's Hurting Now ]</small>

Thanks for your support today guys, I really need it.

I am in a lot of pain at the moment, I can hardly hold back the tears that want to flow out so badly.

Most of the time I can handle this type of stuff, but late at night when I wake up and am feeling especially vulnerable, my thoughts turn really dark. I know that I am not clinically depressed right now, but I feel it looming under the surface. The last few nights I've just cried like a child and have prayed for the strength and guidance to help me have strength. I have plenty of things in place to help me through this, it's just that darkness right before dawn that is hardest to deal with.

When I am awake and rational, this goes away and I feel the remnants of the pain. I feel somewhat melancholy, but I am still able to find inner peace and happiness. This gives me relief because I never want to be in that depressed state again.

Is something that you have dealt with too?

Hi Kily,
First things first... {{{{{{{{{{{{{Kily}}}}}}}}}}}}
I'm sorry that you are having a yucky time. This is something I deal with still today. Although the topic is a bit different now. Now I agonize over how I could have done this to my family. I replay scenes over and over that have brought pain upon my H or girls. I have yet to find the key to self forgiveness I guess...
Back before H and I got back together, I would cry and cry...in the shower, on the way to work, going to bed. I would come home, don't forget we still lived together, and see him with the girls and it would tear me up. A few times as he would leave for work in the morning he would call an I love you to the girls and also to me, out of habit. Then he would say, oops, sorry about that, I didn't mean to say that. OUCH <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I would just find myself going further down in depression. This was just as I was making the decision to come back, so I had a lot of Negative w/OM then as well. I would see what I was missing from H and wonder how I ever got to the point I was at.
Have you considered asking for help from your doctor? SO MANY people get put on different anti-depressants in times like these, just to help them through. I did, and I noticed a big help. I work in a dr's office and it is amazing to see just how many folks need help.
Please remember you aren't alone. Even late at night when you can't sleep, you are being thought of and most likely prayed for by some one who has read your posts.
Here is my e-mail address, in case you would like to use this... wldebusk@cox.net

Feel free to talk about whatever you want...ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hope things get better for you,

Kily...How are you? Missed you here, unless you've started another post.....
Are you ok?

Kily,

I am thinking of you too! Mrs. Wld., I am so glad that you are still with your H. Belated birthday wishes to you,too. This thread has been very helpful, I am trying to reconcile with my ExH after my A. (D is final now) I appreciate all of your thoughts here, it helps to know that we're not alone in our struggles.

God Bless,
H_P

Thanks for the belated wishes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I hope to post an update this weekend so be on the lookout...

Hi All,

Thanks for the thoughts and prayers.

I needed to take some time and focus my energy elsewhere because things were getting me way too down and I needed to address what I was feeling. It was nice to see that people care about me. Thanks a bunch for that.

After I posted the last time, I sat by myself for a long time and let my emotions take over. I have always been one to run away from feelings so this is a difficult thing for me to do. I hit rock bottom and basically let it all go to my higher power. After that night, I woke up with the sense of peace that I have come to value so much. Once I was there, I started picking apart my situation so that I could understand what is going on and why it is affecting me the way it is.

Here's what I arrived at:

I think there were two triggers going on that sunday that put him in that place of anger. The first was that we were ALL sitting together at a dinner table and this was a reminder of how much we lost due to my inability to face my pain. The second was that he was leaving us to meet his new friend and I'm sure that although he was looking forward to seeing her, he was also feeling some pull towards us. That pull towards us might have been the confusing thing that made his anger grow. Again this is just a hypothesis. I will never really know if this was the case. Instinctually it feels right though.

So why am I reacting this way:

Fear.

First I want to say that this fight was the worst that we have ever had in our history together. I was feeling VERY sad about the way I reacted because I really want to take advantage of every opportunity I can to create a positive moment. I was beating myself up because the boobie prize of being "right" was more important than just doing the thing that would make him the happiest.

After a lot of painful soul searching, I recognized that this fight was caused because I was really afraid that I was loosing him to his new friend. Instead of being honest with myself about it, I reacted in a childish way. I was making demands because I wanted him to acknowledge that I still mattered and that is what resulted in the conflict. Sure I got his attention, and we certainly both got out of control, but the only thing gained was that I pushed him further away.

My actions now are to just step away for a while and let him be. He is going to hate me no matter what I do and only time will hopefully change this. This doesn't mean that I don't want to fix this, it's because I want to fix it that I'm looking at the whole picture. I am just starting to feel that I'm doing more damage by simply being around him. I'm just not sure what to do....
I have apologized to him twice for my behavior and hope that he knows how much I meant it. I never want to fight like that again.

I do know that Saturday my DS had ice skating lessons and XBF showed up late. I was sitting in the bleachers at the top because that was the warmest place in the building. He came in and sat near me but not too close to me. I didn't say anything to him and continues to read one of my self-help books. After a while he asked me if I wanted a cup of tea. I was truly shocked by this because I assumed that he didn't want to even know me anymore. I said "I really appreciate that you asked me, but no, I really don't want one right now." His response was "Well if you don't want one, do you want to finish this one?" Again, I was shocked that he wanted to share something with me. I said thanks and took it.

We then got to talking about an incident that ocurred a couple of weeks ago. I accidentally activated a joint credit card thinking that it was a renewal of a personal one.He was furious at me and thought I was trying to sc..w him out of money or something. Basically, I handed him a check for the value that I purchased and told him that this should be settled now. I apologized for the error and also expressed that this should be the end of it.

His reaction to me was "I didn't appreciate that you to the OP to lunch on my credit card." I was happy inside because this was NOT the case and I knew it. I said to him "That charge on the card for lunch was for me and DS". I had taken DS to an Aquarium near the town where the OP lived, but had NO CONTACT with him at all. DS wanted to see the WHALES and I was trying to accomodate him. I was proud that I had one moment that proved my commitment to fixing this. THe fact that XBF had two months worth of credit card statements that showed no reference whatsover to an alternate life felt really great. The fact that he even cared to look, make a judgement, and discover that he was wrong, felt good to. For me it was a healing moment.

On Sunday I went to pick DS up at the house. Walking in there, I felt like a stranger. I noticed that my attachment to the house is waning. While I was there, I became a little emotional because we had tentative plans to go to the apple orchard next weekend to get apples, pumpkins, and cider. It's an annual tradition with us. Well I got to the house and he had a pumpkin and some corn stalks displyed by the driveway. I went in the house and said "I'm sorry if I'm prying, but I thought we were going to the orchard next weekend to get pumpkins and stuff." He started getting defensive and I held my hand up and said "You know, I have no right to be questioning you, I'm sorry you don't have to explain. I'm sorry that I'm emotional that you bought yours already but this was something that mattered a great deal to me and I'm huriting because I felt that you didn't wait for me." He didn't say much then, but a few minutes later he said something like "A lot of our traditions you just didn't care about" and I responded with "That's not true, my feelings towards them were buried with everything else. They mean more to me than you know."

We talked more and stayed pretty cordial towards one another. Then I asked him how much he still owed on his car. He told me and then asked why I wanted to know. I told him that I wanted to do something for him and that I was considering paying the loan off. He said that he didn't want that and I told him that I just wanted to give back a little to him because I had takem so much from him. I told him that I reached a point where all I want is for him to be happy. I had tears streaming down my face as these words came out. It was a difficult moment for me but one that was from the heart.

A little while later, I was getting ready to leave. I mentioned to him that I wished he was coming with us because I was planning to take the kids to our favorite agricultural fair of the year. He said that he had things to do and wished us a good time. He commented on what a lovely day ot was for a fair and I said to him that we would have fun but it wasn't the same without him. I added "Nothing's the same without you." and I left.

My question in response to all of this is whether or not I was showing too much emotion. It was all from the heart, but I don't want for him to feel guilt or that I'm latching on or forcing him into something. As I said before, this stiff is so hard and I don't know what to do.

Thanks again,

Kily,

Honest emotions are just that "honest emotions". Don't fear them. If this site is about anything it is honesty. If we can look at ourselves and our partners in a very honest way a lot of the problems here would vanish.

I am glad you had time to think about the fight last weekend. I was going to comment on your post but was traveling and it probably wouldn't have been a very positive one at that. Your current realizations were very much in line with some of my thinking and I think you have yet again learn another valuable lession.

This is going to take awhile, but I do have a suggestion for you. Why not invite him to join you and your son for something. Sort of start a new tradition. The old ones are filled with many memories and many are very painful for your exBF as well as you. It seems to me you are doing well, and it seems to me that your exBF was also sort of making his apology with the offer of the tea.

You know sometimes the best way to find out what someone feels or is thinking is to simply ask them. The hard part is to accept the answer and not fight it or show disappointment. It drives me crazy when someone asks a question, gets the answer from someone, and the argues with this person as if what they feel or think is wrong. If one already knows the answer there was no reason to ask, if one doesn't know it, then arguing about it seems pretty dumb.

My point? If you ask him something, accept the answer as just that; the current answer. You will learn if you haven't already, the answers to relationship questions do change with time, so listen to the answer, him just voiceing something outloud often starts to change the thinking process. So if you are confused, then ask him, but accept the answer.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

In a way, I'm glad that you didn't respond to my vent. I needed to figure this out by myself, for me, as part of my growth. Plus, I think I would have cried from anything you had said because I was in too much pain and I would have interpreted it the wrong way. I do appreciate that you read it though. It helps to just recognize what it is you're feeling sometimes and this is the avenue that I chose to explore those feelings.

One of the reasons that I like posting here is because I have nothing to hide. If anyone in the world had questions about my intentions, it's all here for the world to see. I'm not ashamed to feel my feelings anymore! In sharing my thoughts and fears, I'm hoping that people like you can offer me things to think about to help me grow. Also I'm hoping that other lost souls can gain something here while on their journey. It sounds strange, but I am stronger and more confident each time I voice something here.

Your suggestion about something new is actually the best route to take I think. I've been approaching this dilemma from a view that I'm trying to reinforce what we had by sharing in what we used to do. I see the point that this brings a psychological expectation to it even if it is meant from a healing perspective.

On my way to work this morning, I was considering a weekend camping trip with just the kids. It is something that "we" always talked about, but never managed to get around too. I guess I've decided to start doing and stop worrying so much about what I can't change. Of course I'll extend an invitation and let him know that he is always welcome to join us, but I don't expect him to. The fact is, at least he knows that he is wanted. I will go anyway and the kids and I will have a bonding moment that we can build on.

I did take your advice in two instances that I quickly want to mention before I go.

The first is that occasionally I do touch his arm when I say goodbye to them. Once he complained, but this was on a day when he was really hostile towards me. This was actually an accident where I was trying to get his attention at dinner and he was not listening, so I patted his arm out of habit. The other times that I have, he has not said a word.

Secondly, He had a therapy session last night and asked me to watch DS while he was there. I agreed. During the time that he was gone, I threw together a meatloaf and fixed him a couple of servings. He LOVES my meatloaf! I put it all in a bag and when he came to get DS, I handed him the bag of food. I don't know if he will eat it, but I know that I felt good in doing this.

After his therapy session I did notice that he wouldn't even look in my direction at all. This troubled me a little because I felt that something might have been wrong so I called out to him. He looked at me in the eyes then and for a moment we just held our gaze. (I love doing this with him because when I do, I see something there) I was suddenly filled with a real strong urge to put both arms around him and just hug him. It was almost as if there was energy being transferred between us and I wanted to close the distance and let it flow. I asked him at that moment if he was okay. He said yes and looked away. He always looks away first. I was filled with sadness then because I wanted more than anything to go with them and just spend the night in their company. Instead, I went inside and sat with my thoughts while I watched a candle burn.

I'm just wondering if I am in denial. He tells me so many negative things, but I still see something in his eyes. I know when he is hating me because I feel it eminating from him, but at times when we connect like this one, I'm not sure what it is. It's very confusing.

Well thanks for reding.

Good Morning Kily,
I am glad to see that you are doing ok. I was worried...
Reading your post brought me back to about a year ago. H and I were getting ready for the final court date and things seemed like they were only hostile. We could be cordial around the girls, but if they weren't around it was hard to talk. I was hurting SO much because I was trying to figure out how to make things better. I had told H that I really didn't want to divorce and he didn't believe me. I said it a few times over a few weeks and then realized that there was something missing. When I came to this realization, it surprised me. I replayed one of our conversations in my mind, the one where he said all I ever did was SAY I didn't want a divorce. I never showed him. So I started to send him that page and do things that showed him. At first it felt funny because I had to wonder if he even noticed. He didn't ever comment on my actions and I would get hurt feelings, until I realized that it would take TIME and perseverance. (sp?)
I finally asked him one day if he was getting my pages. His reply was yes, and I almost paged you back but I didn't want to send the wrong picture. I do still feel that way I just think we should go through with the divorce. OUCH, that one hurt. My first reaction was to get mad and say to myself well F*** HIM. who needs this kind of treatment. Then I said yeah, Louise, that attitude is gonna fix this. I laughed at myself inside, then kept on paging him every day anyway. After all I was doing these new behaviours because I wanted to, not because anyone was making me. IT FELT TO GOOD!! I finally felt like I was doing the right thing. I made it even easier to do more and more.

I'm sorry if this was rambling, but your post just took me back there and I decided to share it...the spirit moved me so to speak! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You sound like something changed in you and it felt like I was reading one of my own posts!
I agree with JL, I think that you should start something new, not necessarily something that you have shared, or always wanted to do together. I think that may hurt him and send the wrong message. But certainly do something fun and start a new tradition.
I need to get kids to school and me to work. Hope you ahve a great day. You'll be in my thoughts...

Hi Mrs W!

I want to thank you for caring so much. It made the difference for me during this hard time that I found myself in. I would have responded sooner, but I needed time to think. I also don't have internet access on the weekends, No TV or Phone for that matter either.

Reading your reply really brought my spirits up because I know that someone else understands the EXACT feelings that I am having. There are times where I can see the furture so clearly in my head and I just want to perform some kind of brain meld on XBF to show him how different it will be. Some pipe dream, Eh?

Patience is the answer, and also patience with myself. I suppose that if nothing else comes of this, at least I'm learning how to listen to others and to myself.

Yes it is very frustrating to want to give him everything and not have an opportunity to do anything. It's funny, but I am now replaying the tapes in my head of the conversations that we shared while I was in the FOG. I see that the treatment that he is giving me is now equal to what I gave, and I clearly see his side of it all too painfully. I mentioned this to him on sunday. We were calmly talking about things and I made a comment that "there was no way that I could ever know how deeply I hurt you, but I think I'm beginning to understand because I'm starting to feel that same kind of pain." His immediate reaction was to get defensive and ask me how that was. His argument was that I was the one that left him "because I worked too much to support the household". His reasoning was probably that because I left, I shouldn't be feeling pain at the loss of the relationship. I didn't mean to put him on guard like that.

I was just trying to convey the feelings that I was having and I was trying to tell him that I understood his pain. I am only able to identify with what he's been through because I've finally decided to face it instead of run from it. I just didn't convey these thoughts adequately.

Yes, something in me has changed, but I'm not sure what. I only hope that my kids benefit from my lessons.