It seems to me that at some point, the WS has to be made (even forced) to realize the ugliness and selfishness of their actions. To have the bubble of this fantasy world they're in pierced and deflated. How can we help to bring that about and still hold onto the hope of saving our M? Are there any strategies to accomplish this while still remaining in Plan A mode and before going to Plan B?

On the one hand, we are reluctant to "tell the world" about the A (even if you decide to go to Plan B), because it will affect how people look at us for a verrrrry long time, even if the M is saved. On the other hand, getting it out in the open definitely robs the WS and OP of the security blanket secrecy provides and, perhaps, facilitates the bursting of that bubble.

So what do you think? Please share your thoughts and suggestions.

Hi SW,

In my own experience, the more you push the deeper the desire to stay in that bubble is. The person involved in the A will not face up to the reality of their actions unless one of two things happen:

1. They receive kindness, love, and support on a repeated bassis from the LS. This type of action is extremely difficult but will lesson the dependancy for the OP. The WS starts to feel "safe" enough to open the wounds. (PLAN A)

or

2. The consequences of their actions are too unbearable for them. Once the magnitude of the loss is understood the WS will have second thoughts about everything. (PLAN B)

Hopefully it helped.

kily is right on, and she is apparently reflecting on her own thoughts (and in the process demonstrating the extreme value we should place on having former WSs posting here).

But I bet that not one size fits all and having the affair exposed seems to be key in many, many cases to having it fall apart. But not all, as with my XW.

But first, please realize you cannot force your WS to do or think ANYTHING. Understand? I assume you believe that exposure will force the issue.

The perfect way for this to happen is if you are not responsible for it. The easy, but time consuming way is to just sit back and wait for it to reveal itself. It will happen. But this was not your question.

So the challenge for you is deciding how to meddle without being blamed. Thin ice indeed. Based on what I've read here over many, many months, let me suggest a few things NOT to do:

1. don't overtly tell WS's family
2. don't recruit your kids to ask WS questions
3. don't threaten WS that you're gonna spill the beans
4. don't threaten OP that you're gonna spill the beans
5. DON'T BE IN A HURRY TO DO ANYTHING

Now, that said, is OP married?

Thanks Kily, worthatry.

Yes, OM is married. OM, OMW, my WW and I all work for same organization. He works in the same office as my WW.

What I learned about OM: He has had other affairs and is a player, I doubt my W is even number 4. A known predator (a Cakeman). He has told my wife that he has no intention of ever leaving his own W. One of his prior A's ended in a harrassment situation and he was transfered to the office where my W works. Lucky us. OMW know of at least that affair and perhaps one other.

My wife has since admitted that she knows her R with OM has nowhere to go, that he is offering nothing. Haven’t had intercourse yet but presumes that’s what he eventually wants. He has told her he never sees them as a couple and has never told my WW that he is unhappy in his own M. My WW even began to sense that OM is a “player”, but it is almost like she is addicted.

So, what are you thinking in the way of possible actions to bring out A?

My first gut reaction is to do nothing. People in the workplace will pick up on it and news will get around. WSs seem to think that no one notices.

Alternatives include confronting OM, telling OM's W, telling OM's boss. If he's already had one harassment sutiation, reports of another won't be good for him. Is he in any way a superior to your W or to you?

But based on your description of your wife's statements, you may be better off seeking advice from Steve Harley. Seems she's not in too deep yet and maybe some guided communication from you and - better yet - her involvement with counseling could nip this before it gets worse.

Let me guess - she doesn't consider it an affair, right?

WAT

Instead of reacting to the situation, I think the best thing you can do for the two of you is to become pro-active. What I mean by this is that right now your wife needs for you to be as accepting and unassuming as you can possibly be. This is a very hard thing to do but it's what Step-A is all about.

There is something that the OM is selling that has obviously got your wife's attention. If you can pinpoint what this is, it might be a good place for you both to start.

Luckily it sounds like the "real: damage hasn't happened yet.

Good luck.

Well hello! I will answer your question with an outline of my own situation if thats OK by you, but of course although everyones situation here is similar we also have our own unique bits & pieces within our marriages that bought us here.
My H had an EA 12 yrs ago never had counseling for it & muddled thru (this will be a long post so sorry about that) H said he would never again have a femail friend.

4 yrs ago H started helping a woman who was friends with us both (actually I damn well introduced them & am still kicking myself 4 that)she wanted a horse to ride so used one of ours she had trouble handling the horse so H started riding with her all the time.

Friendship went on & on imagine this picture it became their time together she didnt want her H joining them & h didnt want me there either, I got the whole 9 yards of you wont enjoy it you dont ride like we do' you only want to come & check up on us because you dont trust us yada yada yada. at first I let it go but then it got the better of me & I was LB big time & I guess if you are out having a great time & then come home to the W who is as p****d off as hell with the situation the grass will sure start to look greener. Anyway on & on it went & the more i bought it up (even with her, i said one day I was really worried about the situation (she knew about the first affair) her reply to me was well you may stop us riding together but you will never stop our friendship!! So what could I do i just tried sooooo hard to get them to see what was happening but they didn't want to see. H even said to me about 6 months before we seperated that she had said that they were spending too much time together so they weren't spending so much time together now H said that it was him that kept them riding together but that she did lean on him too much.

Anyway to cut a long story short one night in bed I asked H why he never told me he loved me anymore, his reply was because I don't I havent loved you for 2 yrs.. Well talk about a huge slap in the face for me I left for a night as i couldnt handle the rejection if only i had understood then what plan A meant I had been on this site but was in such a state that nothing was making any sense to me, I said to H well I will just have to go then H said you know I would never ask you to leave but I felt it was the only way to go H wouldnt give up this friendship totally. Came back but i ended up moving into the spare room. (H reply to me some time later was that we seperated the night that i moved out of the bedroom I so wish i hadn't made that move but it's done now.

H came to me a couple of times for SF but if i went to him he would say what do you think you are playing at!! Had me well confused i can tell you & each time he came to me for it he would say don't get your hopes up we are over we can't live together, I am not going to be miserable for the rest of my life when i loved you i could overlook the way you are but not anymore. the i would write him emails saying how I thought we could fix things & if I ever got a reply it was to say get over it & move on & stop blaming yourself (well today i just realised why i was blaming just me in the end...what was his comment about how he could overlook the way I was) He then said can't we just enjoy our last few weeks together & be just friends to which I replied you dont treat your friends like this...

Well H & I had a row one day which ended in me saying well sell the bloody farm then & would ya believe it the very next mroning I was having a nap & H came & woke me up saying that the real estate agent was there 4 me to sign the papers everything happened so fast from that time on I could hardly believe it myself...Property was sold assets divided etc etc. Just b4 I left i said i'm sorry but all this points to you & OW having an affair he said I know you all think that but you will be proved wrong!! (the whole village had been talking about them having an affair for a couple of years) So all this time i was sure something was going on but just had no actual proof..... I honestly thought i was going insane one day i just knew i was right the next day I didn't know which way was up. This OW was coming nearly daily to have coffee with me & to smoke my cigarettes right until the time i had to visit my sick mother who has cancer (i was away for 9 weeks & H was telling people that he didnt miss me one bit (people did not know at this stage that we were seperating). while I was away H emailed me saying that he was shocked to hear that OW & her H were seperating & f****d if he knew why!!! Then said he had talked to her H & he had said the writing had been on the wall for them for yrs (pity I hadn't been privvy to this info) A couple of weeks b4 we seperated her H mentioned to me one day that 2 yrs ago he had put software on their computer that tracked every keystroke & that H & OW were emailing each other (h had a private email acct) nothing that said they were actually having an affair but it hurt OW H so bad that he deleted the program AND DECIDED TO WAIT 2 YEARS TO TELL ME THIS WAS HE OFF HIS ROCKER OR WHAT!@@# He then decided that if she was so unhappy with him he would let her go & told her 18months later that their marriage was over!!It could have helped me save my marriage I was soooo mad remember H was still telling me that this was just a friendship!! They were always on the phone & text messaging one another but still H would not admit to an A so I ended up looking like the neurotic wife...

Anyway I ended up giving H a plan B letter (bad move but also the only way I could keep any love I had left for him) & also sent OW a letter ( a nice one saying how I didnt want to see her right now as i felt that although the first affair had been hard for us that this friendship was the eventual cause of our marriage breaking down, there was never enough room in our marrage for 3 people & said that my marriage was over for now but I would be there for a time if my H ever decided differently I know a big mistake but one i have learnt from. I am a very rash fix it NOW! sort of person & I am currently dealing with this.

I ended up leaving the village not telling H where i was going cause i was in plan B remember. B4 I left I organised a job back in the village always intending to come back & rented a flat. During this time H & I had quite a few text message arguments regarding division of property & in the end our son stepped in as mediator as we had also just formed a company a couple of yrs ago & I had put in a major amount of work which I wasnt going to reap the benifits for I said to our son I don't want to be in a position in a couple of yrs where I have set H & OW up in business & I am feeling ripped off! son said do you really think thats what will happen I said yes so son drew up a deal & contacted h with it at first H said no then changed his mind. At this stage I dont think son thought H was capeable of doing something so awful to us.

Anyway I eventually came back to the village & noticed that when i went to work early in the morning H truck was parked outside Ow house so he was obviously staying the nite there then son phoned me & said H had just rung him & said he was going up 4 a visit but was bringing someone else with him so they would stay in a motel (H used to always stay with son) son said do you know about this I replied what i had seen. Son rang H back & asked him what was going on H said he & OW were just friends but it was more than that now!!! WELL WELL WELL I WASN'T THE MAD WIFE AFTER ALL! It is now out in the open & I honestly believe that If I hadnt gone away that this would have gone on under ground for years it took me actually having to leave my marriage (not that I am reccomending anyone ese do this) for the affair to actually come out I mean how can H expect anyone to believe his story maybe if it had been a yr down the track it could have been believable but after 5 weeks it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work it out. The girl that wors for H in his business said to me the other day that she was so sorry that even though
she rode with them they also managed to pull the wool over her eyes I said I knew I wasnt a crazy woman she said I knew that but now i really believe you... Anyway I am now back in plan A having counselling with Steve Harley & have gone from H hating me (well he probably still does) but if i am out i go up & say hello to him general chit chat he has been here to borrow a couple of things & we had a coffee I acted upbeat have lost 80lbs in weight & feel good about myself H only contacts me if he needs anything & as far as I know he wont be needing anything else from me in the near future so dont expect to hear from him at all, if we are out anywhere he never initates a conversation but if i go up & talk to him he talks to me the rest of the time there is a very thick brick wall around him. But like I said to steve Harley we have come a long way I am the only one working on this at the moment H told me never to come back here in the hope that we would get back 2gether cause it would never happen. But we have gone from not talking to at least being able to hold a converstaion or two.

. I have done so much damage but looking back I think it was the only way to go as I had to be rid of this "friend" once & for all & I truly believe that for this A to come out it will now crash & burn & Steve said that when it does H will be looking at his options & I have to look like the best one!! hee hee Steve said that affairs that never reach the real world will go on for years!!! One more thing H & I once we decided that we would seperate agreed that we would tell our own family but he never told his just kept putting it off all the time & in the end I told them I was sooooooo p****d off about that but at the same time i kept hoping that every little push i gave would make him wake up but of course that was never gonna happen... Went into a coffee shop yesterday & OW was in there having a meeting (I didnt know she would be there) so I just walked right passed her she didnt look up (she would have already seen me coming in & I guess was terrified that i would make a scene in front of her boss) anyway the meeting finished & she left while i was still getting my coffee she never stopped to chat to people just got in her car & left, now she hasnt seen me for 5 months so would have been a bit of a shock to see me 80lbs lighter & looking really trendy well i guess even seeing me was a bit of a shock..Anyway my belief is that she has seen me & that maybe a bit of reality will be sinking in now.....But then again she could also be so far in the fog that she wont have seen a thing eh!! these aliens sure are hard work!!
Anyway sorry to have rambled on such a lot i feel like i have taken over your thread here but just wanted to give you my perspective of things & what a long perspective it turned out to be. Please anyone feel free to ask any questions you like I will do my best to answer...

worthatry,

Actually, WW does realize it is an A. And eventhough they haven't had sex, I believe she is in over her head emotionally. She has broken it off 3 times and has caved in to his pursuit 3 times. She is head over heals in lalaland. It is scary.

My WW and the OM are equals, but work in different units in the office. All that means is they work on opposite sides of a wall in a small office of about 20 people. Most of the people in that office have known me for years, including their boss, who I have a working relationship that goes back 10 years. I'm sure someone in the office knows something. That might influence my wife, if she realized this and had her head on straight. I'm sure the OM could care less as long as everyone else keeps their mouth shut. He is a player, with lots of experience.

The OMW and I are actually higher in the organization and work in the same building.

I obviously left my WW's LB almost empty. I suffer from depression and withdrew over the years. Instead of saying something, she withdrew, too. I've been doing my part to improve myself and restock the LB since early this year, before I was even aware of the A.

What is he offering my WW? Well, I found her hiding place with all his cards and notes. It is mushy HS stuff. But she is hooked and it is scary to see her when she in this alien state of mind. She is risking her marriage, her family and the psychological health of her children and she knows it, in her more lucid moments. Ugh....

Anyway, what do you think? Especially with regards to your questions about our positions at work and how that might relate to bringing out the A?

Well, I think you should concentrate on your Plan A and not focus on trying to influence the infidels.

The affair will very likely end. To hasten its end, do not interfere with it.

If you take extra effort to expose it, this will likely backfire as kily warned. Instead, just don't do anything to help them keep it concealed.

The best advice I can offer is to get a session with Steve Harley. Right off the bat he will ask you to ask your W to fill out the EN questionaire or if she won't, to have you fill it out as if you were her.

Guess why?

To work on your Plan A. Exposing the affair is not a priority. It will expose itself in time. During this time you work on you.

Think of it this way: while LaLa Land is in bloom, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING you can do to separate the affairees. NOTHING. Get it? You don't exist so you may as well put the time to good use. Figure out what you need to do to be able to meet her ENs and then make changes and demonstrate your changes to the extent she'll allow you.

Sure, if the affair sees the light of day, good. But what if it does and she comes to her senses that this guy is scum and you're not ready to fill the void? Understand?

WAT

WAT,

Thanks, I know you are right about establishing a sound Plan A and will look into scheduling a consultation with the Harleys.

But what makes you think my WW's A will eventually come out into the open? The OM is an experienced predator and knows the game well. He has my WW on a string and will surely guide her on being more secretive now that they know I know.

Talk to you later.

SW

At least your WW has enough trust in you because you are providing a safe environment for her to be honest with you about the A.

How much do you and your W spend doing things toghether, without the kids? I ask you because one of the things that are prescribed in SAA for troubled M's is spending 30 hours a week doing things together, without the children.

Both of you would probably enjoy getting away from the everyday tedium, and she could start to see you in a different way than she does at the moment.

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

CoffeeMan, Thanks for stopping by.

I would not say that my WW trusts me enough to tell me about the A. All she has done is not deny when confronted.

Spending time with her and working on the relationship are difficult right now because she is in lalaland. When I confronted her the last time, OM had just left for vacation. She was remorseful, answered most of my questions and was affectionate.

He comes back from vacation and she breaks it off, as she said she would. But, she sees him just about every day at work and reverts back to this alien state, expressing thoughts that the marriage is doomed, etc. I know they are communicating again and the A is probably on again. I could explain it better, but I just don't have time right now. Last several days she has been in "as if" mode,like there is nothing wrong, and treats me more like a friend - no affection. She does not want to talk and refuses to get counseling.

Yes, I know that I have to concentrate on meeting her needs. But the OM is a major hangup from my point of view. So, I still sit here trying to think of ways to take him down w/o screwing up hopes to save my M. I just think that in my WW's case, her fantasy world has to come crashing down before she can move on. And I would welcome any input along those lines.

However, I know that I have to do a good Plan A and only consider ways to expose the A or take down the OM that make sense and are worth the risk.

One good thing about the last confrontation; it has further limited their ability to get together. Right now, if it is on agian, it is limited to short get togethers before or after work.

SW

<small>[ August 18, 2002, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: StrongWill ]</small>