Most here probably know my story, but for those who dont, here is a recap:

04/27 WW walks out
05/01 Discover WW's 2-year long affair
06/04 WW files for DV -- Defintely over
06/05 I go dark -- Plan B
07/01 I find out WW still seeing OM regularly
07/02 WW absolutely has NO desire for our M
07/19 WW finds out OM's wife just now pregnant
07/29 WW files for bifurcation. Wants DV NOW!
08/12 WW standing at doorway crying -- says she misses the cats. First contact with each other in 2 months! She stays 5 hours--We talk. Most radically honest conversation we EVER had in 15 years!
08/15 Bifurcation hearing. WW doesn't show up. Nothing changed. DV not gong to speed up after all..... Late evening--WW shows up at door again, this time with her Sis's child. I am Godparent of him. Hadn't seen him in 4 months. We talk radically honest for an hour or so. She and OM been over since OMW is pregnant. WW SEVERELY pi$$ed at OM. Says he "wrecked" her life.

Anyway, here is the thing. WW was VERY remorseful. Even after I admitted my part in the failure by not showing enough attention, WW tells me rather sternly that actually, SHE SHOULD HAVE TOLD ME! This woman may be pulling my chain, but I really don't think so. She is very cautious around me. Said I had NOTHING to do with this. ALL HER FAULT!

She says that there is no way I could ever love her again. Things will never be the same.

But....her talking here...."IF this Dv goes through, I want us to remain very close. I want you to understand that even IF we get DV'ed, I want no other. I want to be close to you." (She is telling herself that by Dv'ing, it would be a new start}

The thing is, I was VERY ready to move on. I had given up. WW was heading for DV at a fast pace (we have no children). Was still seeing OM. For all practical purposes, my M was over, BIG TIME over.

Was I 100% detached? No. But I had detached enough to move on. Now this.....

Boy, has this rattled me. NEVER would have thought.....

HCII

Wow HC,

What in the world are you going to do??

If I was in your situation, I probably would give it some time and take things really slow. I would suggest some counseling and until she demonstrates to me that I can trust her again, I would keep some distance. I know it sucks that you may feel like 2nd choice - I know I would. I also know that we are only imperfect humans prone to error in life.

So, what are you going to do? Do you follow your heart or your head?

Wowie, zowie...

So what are you going to do now??

hcii,

I guess I have just one question. If she was so wrong about OM, and she was so wrong in what she did, why does she think she is so right that things cannot be rebuilt??

She is right about one thing, the marriage you had is long gone now, it cannot be brought back. As for the divorce and starting new, and not wanting another, well I don't know what to say. You know she will want another if you are not in the picture. The divorce won't make you have a serious case of amnesia with regards to what she did.

Finally, if she doesn't do some work with regard to the relationship, there is little hope that you two can be close friends again. I mean who needs a friend that lies, cheats, and abandons you. Divorcing you won't erase that.

Perhaps she needs to be told a few of these things. If you aren't friends now, getting divorced isn't going to help that. She and you ought to see what you can do to restore this, IF you want to even try. That is your choice before she has a choice. If she isn't interested in trying, then it seems to me that all is lost, including the friendship.

You cannot be a friend to her, and move on with your life, date, and even marry. It won't work. The next woman in your life won't want her hanging around or you confiding in her.

Sounds a little foggy to me. My suggestion is to slow down the divorce until the two of you can really get your feet on the ground and see what might or might not happen. While I suspect she thinks that the divorce will somehow justify what she did, it won't and you know that.

Best of luck hcii and I do hope that she will give it time.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It seems to me it is easier to still love someone, that it is to be their friend. The love is a residual of the relationship, the friendship requires trust.

<small>[ August 16, 2002, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Hi HCII

I think the route you should go is rather straight forward.
Your WW seems to have seen the light, is remorseful and realises that you are her true friend. That's great news - in this respect, you're much further advanced than many on this board [including myself]

OK, the FIRST thing is, that have to knock out of your wife's head the "divorce=new start" thing. A new start, yes, by all means!! but through divorce? no way! maybe you can suggest a more suitable alternative, like repeating honeymoon or something?

Point #2, what is unclear from you wife is whether she considers (or even: is committed to) continue to live with you as your partner & wife. being "a friend" is just not the same, you know. my wife would [in her rather fogged state] at the moment rather move to OM, but "keep me as a friend". Sort of cake eating, fence siting, whatever you might call it. So: Point #2 is, is your wife committed, does she want to live with you?

Try get some committments, try get some answers, try to get at least a step or two into the right direction. Rome wasnt built in a day, your new marriage wont neither.

Not sure if that helps, but here you go.

Nick

PS

In my reply I assumed you WANTED to be still married. Is that the case?

Wowie Zowie indeed (with apologies to Frank
Zappa)!

I agree with JL. She deserves to be told that if you get DV'd, you can't be friends. (like, WW, please twist that knife now that you've buried it in my chest!).

She's doing a lot more facing the consequences of her actions than my W is, but she needs to face the consequences of DVing you, as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know it sucks that you may feel like 2nd choice </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LiveAnew,

THAT is the BIG thorn right now. I have thought about this now for 3 days. I can find ways to overcome most things but that. I can tell myself that the cheating, lying, etc. will stop. But...I will always feel 2nd best. Not good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wowie, zowie...

So what are you going to do now??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J.R.,

Beats the hell out of me. Darn near as stressful as D-day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She and you ought to see what you can do to restore this, IF you want to even try. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL,

That, right now, is my BIGGEST hurdle. I worry about ME now......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So: Point #2 is, is your wife committed, does she want to live with you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nick,

I truly think she does, but doesn't know how to find her way back. I told her, (and it didn't seem to be a LB'er), that I could think of 14 years worth of reasons to stay. But if it was ended, I couldn't think of 1 to come back. Make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In my reply I assumed you WANTED to be still married. Is that the case? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nick again,

Now I'M on the fence. How's that for ironic?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with JL. She deserves to be told that if you get DV'd, you can't be friends. (like, WW, please twist that knife now that you've buried it in my chest!).

She's doing a lot more facing the consequences of her actions than my W is, but she needs to face the consequences of DVing you, as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long,

Well said. My thoughts exactly....

This is NOT going to be easy.......

HCII

OK

If I hear you correcly, you're saying
- you're 2nd choice, that sucks
- your not sure whether to have her back
- you think that she might want to give it another try

now, with regard to #2 I cant help you - that's up to you, really. but consider: the question which every BS faces is - do you want to be married or do you want to right? good question, really. so, do some introspection, look into your heart.

The rest is easy I think.

If you're religous, maybe a pastor might help?

Are you in counseling at this moment?

Stall the divorce/bifurcation

This woman is in withdrawl and depressed ... You have the rest of your life to be divorced, what's the hurry? If she shakes the OM out of her head and rejoins the human race ... you just might have something here.

Whatever you decide, it doesn't have to be today.... fence-sitting is an art form <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This being "her 2nd choice" business .... that is what your fence sitting time is for, is it not? She was choosing a fantasy relationship over a reality-based relationship... and you were 2nd to a phantom-man relationship that never truely was more than 2 dimentional. (Pregnant wifey tends to douse the fantasy-land image in your W's head with ice water)

I feel pretty sorry for your W and the pickle she finds herself in right now.

What harm would it do for you to drag your feet in regards to divorce awhile? Would you be able to stand it? Would you regret NOT dragging your feet after a few more years have passed?

Very interesting turn of events.

It challenges YOUR integrity in a new and different way!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 16, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Oh...and by the way......

In one of our conversations, she stressed that she was no longer in contact with the OM. Hadn't been in 4 weeks. Of course, she has lied to me about that before.

I lovingly told her this:

I will not tolerate ANY form of contact. If...he contacts her, she better be telling me quickly. If I find out another way, and she hasn't told me, I asked her what does SHE think that I would think. Told her to remember that. Told her to not even let the "friend thing" get started.

Right now, we are truly just "cordial" with each other, with signs of some possibilites. I think we have just crossed the line into the state of "conflict". If....he is ANYWHERE in her life, even though she senses us as "separated", consider me gone as a friend, and husband.

Maybe that was too harsh, but is the ONLY way I will even CONSIDER anything (including friendship).

HCII

OK, here's my totally un-scientific but from-the-heart opinion.

1. Don't take it for granted that you ARE #2 choice here. Think of it this way; yes, while things with the OM were going good, he APPEARED to be #1, but whether it was getting his W pregnant, or it had been whatever other act or series of acts, eventually she would have discovered tahe what appeared to be first choice, really was not. And in all likelyhood, it was you all along. Otherwise, what all of you are saying is that in ALL cases, when the WS chooses to go back to the BS, the BS is #2 choice. I don't belive that is true.

But, assuming you can get over that problem, the next problem is; do YOU, HCII, want to try to rebuild your M? You are probably undecided, right?

OK, so how about this; delay or stop the divorce proceedings (if you can), tell her that honestly you were ready to move on, but that you might want to explore the possibility of re-attaching.
BUT, don't have her move in with you yet. Date her; date her like you would date any other woman for some time. IF she can "fill your tank" and your "love bank" again, and over a period of time re-build trust, and you can begin to forgive, see what happens.

But of course, you have to want to, and she has to prove to you that she is being honest, and is remorseful, etc. etc. Perhaps you might consider an MB Weekend...it's said it works wonders, and it's also said that it can help you make up your mind. Steve has me and my W slated to attend one, even before she's ready to commit.

Best of luck, HC, this is a tough one, but it's a door that opened which you thought was closed forever. So there's some good in that!

----

<small>[ August 16, 2002, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK
If I hear you correcly, you're saying
- you're 2nd choice, that sucks
- your not sure whether to have her back
- you think that she might want to give it another try
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nick,

I'll have to admit...I was getting pretty deep into the "indifferent" stage. Not so deep that I can't come out, but it will be a LONG journey.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Stall the divorce/bifurcation

This woman is in withdrawl and depressed ... You have the rest of your life to be divorced, what's the hurry? If she shakes the OM out of her head and rejoins the human race ... you just might have something here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,

Why in the he!! do you have to be so logical? Don't you know that makes it worse? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

As to the bifurcation, since neither her, nor her attorney showed up, it was not dismissed, but rather denied by default. I don't think she can do it again. Even so, in my original response, I responded that the M was NOT irretrieveably broken, and had requested state-mandated, statutory counseling (Of course, that was 3 months ago, when I felt substantially different). Even if they were to bifurcate, all that would do is separate the DV from the property. Couldn't go ahead and grant the DV, as my initial response is still there.

Pep....I may be chauvenistic for this, but that "second-choice" thing is a toughie.......

The depression you mentioned is right on the mark. She said she felt depressed, and all she wanted to do was sleep. (been there - done that myself -- Part of the breakdown) Been on Wellbutrin for several months, feel great! Much more incentive. Doc wanted to do a 8-9 month thing, but I talked him into letting me continue. I have NO side effects from them.

Ya know what? Right after D-day, I thought that the world was on fire, and I had to put my M back together...like say.....yesterday. But believe you me......this is gonna take time for ME now....

HCII

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you in counseling at this moment? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,

Not in counseling. I had a couple of sessions with Jennifer at the start of this whole mess. Just me, individually. WW had already filed rather quickly, and needed help quick.

I'm not going to mention counseling with her at the moment. But.....she did remark last night that she thought she could use a good "shrink". I casually responded that maybe BOTH of us could. Try and get it ticking in her head, anyway.....

HCII

Why do I have to be so logical ????

THAT'S funny!

Let this unfold without your timetable... try and relax ... be gentle with yourself and with her.

Both of you are two fragile and hurting people.

You have every "right" to be angry and to walk away this second .... do you want that?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I had a couple of sessions with Jennifer at the start of this whole mess. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what did Jennifer tell you at that time?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And what did Jennifer tell you at that time? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM,

Basically, the sessions were to strategize in getting the WW to SLOW THE HE!! DOWN! It had gotten too late for a Plan B letter, so we worked on a "Plan Pre-D" letter. Letting her know that there were other alternatives.

Also, at the time the WW said that the R with the OM was over, and had been for some time. Jennifer said no way....WW wouldn't be pushing hard for Dv if she were "alone".

Jennifer was right......

HCII

Also, at the time the WW said that the R with the OM was over, and had been for some time. Jennifer said no way....WW wouldn't be pushing hard for Dv if she were "alone".

Jennifer was right......

HCII


She does know her stuff, doesn't she?

One of our wisest among us, Orchid, said that in her situation she was all fed up and ready to move on but her WH came back pleading to take him back, but she told him basically that he had to prove to her that he was worthy of being taken back. It worked and now they are doing a great recovery. So you might want to think about 'raising the bar' approach if you do decide to give her another chance.