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Just a bit of history:
11/00 - W tells me she is unhappy with our M; Grows more and more distant 5/01 - After short seperation and some snooping, I find out about OM; I confront her, she denies he's more than a friend (after a weekend in Fla together and hearing her tell him she's in love with him); W wants a D 11/01 - W files for D, but proceeds VERY slowly 1/02 - I get W's/OM's phone records, over 1000 calls between them the past 15 months 2/02 - OM calls me, tells me nothing is or was going on between them; tells me my W talked about killing herself (she denied it) 6/01 - We reach a custody agreement 7/01 - I move out; W calls frequently for various "reasons" 8/01 - W wants to sell the house; a couple of house related issues to take care of, then plan B (I'm ready and Steve H. advised me to)
I think OM is out of the picture, although some contact may continue. The question is, I can't seem to shake the feeling that I want her to crash and burn. Call it bitterness or resentment, but I can't stand the thought that she's going to tear our family apart, never admit anything or hold herself accountable for anything (of course, it's all my fault), go on her merry way and never look back. Never feel any pain, remorse or guilt for what she's done. I know it sounds terrible, but I want that to happen. Partly for vindication and partly because if it doesn't, she'll have learned nothing from this and will likely continue to be unhappy. How do I shake this feeling?
sad dad <small>[ August 17, 2002, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: sad dad ]</small>
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"How do I shake this feeling?"
Well, if she showed signs of remorse or accepting the consequences for what she's done, that would go a long way toward making you feel better.
I think what you're feeling is perfectly normal. I hope that your W will truly pull her head out and learn from her experience.
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Sad Dad, I really understand how you feel. My W just made a "business" trip after I was deployed. I knew she wanted to see OM, Said it was to let him see her looking good so she could turn him down. So she saw him, he said hi then told her he was going out with his buddies. Left her looking stupid. I feel sorry for her, but I want to say "serves you right" so bad. So now she still wants to seperate to "find herself". I don't understand how you can hurt you spouse and kids with out even trying. Everything she has tried has back fired on her, and to be honest something inside smiles. So trying to shake the feelings of hoping she "crashes and burnes" I have tried to concentrate on being a friend and not her husband. She has become closer to me and alittle more open. Not that her needs right now have changed but she has said she likes being my friend. Once in a while I still want her to pay for the pain and selfishness, but little by little it has helped. Although I am thousands of miles away right now I try to befriend her with encouraging emails everyday. Its hard but try to focuse on somebody elses problems, usually make your problems seem smaller.
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Well, I think no matter how much you think she's not suffering, not caring - a part of her will be. The question is how big is it... If it's so small that she's willing to "go the distance" - sorry to say, but she's going to be lost and live a very unsatisfying life - so why even think about her if that's the case - she'd just drag YOU down. If it's big enough to bring her around, you'll have some choices!
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JR is right. I did terribly hurtful things to my H...any concern for his feelings at the time were more so to protect me from the guilt. But I most definatly WAS hurting. I don't care how "happy" a WS may act...it's a show or it's a high. If it's a high...the low is coming. It's not just a roller coaster for the BS or the OP....it's a roller coaster for all.
She will crash and burn saddad...the consequences will catch up with her. In the meantime, just work on you and getting your life back. Have you talked to Steve again? Has he advised the Plan B letter yet?
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Thanks to all for your replies.
h4f,
To answer your question, yes, I talked to Steve last Tuesday. He read my plan b letter and made one small change, but he really liked it. He asked me to make one last attempt to talk to my W and ask her if there is anything she thinks we can do to avoid this. I already know the answer, but it won't hurt. After I get some paperwork in order regarding the house, I'll try talking to her one last time, than it's plan B. I'm ready and Steve says it's necessary. He agreed with what you told me that continuing to plan A at this point will just wean her all the way through the D.
sad dad
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Your wrote:
2/02 - OM calls me, tells me nothing is or was going on between them; tells me my W talked about killing herself (she denied it)
Not wanting to scare you....but let me tell you a true story. I have a bit of baggage here. My father was a WH, and in the commotion which followed his D-Day, he killed himself. [I was 18 then - after which I made the promise to myself never ever to do something like my dad to deceive my wife.... only to be on the receiving end now].
OK, I think what I really want to tell you is: If your wife talks about it, jokes about it, take it *bloody* serious. really. Make sure she's getting all the professional, maybe spiritual, help she may need. maybe she doesnt know she needs it?
N
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You know you don't need our validation to acknowledge your feelings.. you don't shake this, you take note and identify what you feel.
Choose to take care of yourself, and maybe figure out why you want her to crash n' burn..
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Nick,
So sorry to hear about your Dad. I don't know how you dealt with that. I appreciate your sentiments. I did talk to her sister about what OM told me. I knew my W wouldn't talk to me about it, so I hoped she would be able to.
FamilyMan,
I guess I want her to crash and burn for a couple of reasons. First, if she can walk away from this marriage and never look back, never feel any remorse or pain or guilt, I wonder what kind of a person I really married. Secondly, if she's able to surpress any of those feelings and never hit rock bottom, she'll never deal with the true causes of her unhappiness and that's not good for my daughter.
sad dad
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Perhaps it is appropriate to re-post this here. I had written and posted this Theory About Plan B several months ago, and I got some responses, which I also post here.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>Theory about Plan B</strong> that goes something like this: If we go through the entire Plan A process and we are lucky enough to run into the end of the A, or our WS "wakes up" and decides to end it and work on the M, perhaps we succeeded, but perhaps we did not achieve enough of a lifelong learning experience for our WS. I've begun to feel that even if I never HAVE to go to Plan B, unless I do, my WW will not REALLY "get it", and that perhaps the educational value of Plan B may be a very positive thing for the future. I know; most people will tell me I want to punish her, but it's really not like that at all. I have come to believe that actually being in a situation that "feels" like divorce, and the other effects Plan B will undoubtedly have on the WS really can be a very positive educational experience for the future. I can see my W suddenly having to actually face the consequence of her A, perhaps choosing to REALLY learn about MB principles, commit to them, perhaps making a truer/closer self evaluation, and I think it would be good for her and for our marriage in the long term. I have a great fear of this, of this lesson not being learned, because she has been VERY reluctant to change, learn, collaborate, cooperate, compromise, commit: not only after the A was discovered, but always (for many years). And we obviously DID NOT learn our lessons after her first A 14 years ago, and her indecisiveness in all aspects of her life has been a permanent fixture of our M for many years. If she never experiences that feeling, perhaps she'll never really understand how I felt when I found out, or some of the other painful turmoil I've gone thru during all of this Plan A learning process. Just my thoughts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Responses - If I'm not mistaken, these were H4F's</strong> 1. Spacecase...I agree with you completely. I hate to...I'd love to think it's possible to "get it" totally without needing to feel the heat. But in most cases like yours or JR's...I don't think it works that way. Tutter is an example of a WS who's affair was discovered and she IMMEDIATLY was repentant and initiated NC without hesitation. She made a stupid mistake and it almost cost their marriage...she saw that and put forth effort to fix it. This isn't the case with you, nor is it with JR....nor was it with us. I know that if I hadn't gotten out on my own for a while I would not have made the personal growth I did and would not have learned to appreciate my H like I do.
2. BUT, even looking back at the what if's...I think Plan B not only brought me out of it quicker....but given me FAR more respect for my marriage, what it really brings to my life, and what my hubby really brings to my life. I think a marriage that "recovers" without that realization...is fixed, but it's more of a duct tape and rubberband job. Not necessarily permanent.
It seems to me that in most cases where the BS does a great Plan A until the A dies, and then there is some "recovery" as the WS expresses remourse and realizes the pain they've cause their spouse...the WS still hasn't really realized what life without the spouse would be like...nor do they feel the threat of losing their spouse. The BS still feels that threat...because it's been proven to them that it can happen. But as far as the WS has witnessed...they act up, they get Plan A'd. It's my opinion that Plan B, although NOT intended as a punishment, simply proves strength in the BS, and allows the WS to feel some of the consequences of their actions.
So to me, Plan B ensures that IF the marriage survives...it comes with renewed and ADDED respect both for the marriage and the BS, it knocks the WS down off that "I'm queen/king of all I survey" attitude, it not only brings the WS out FURTHER and quicker and gives greater ensurances that it WON'T happen again...because Plan B offers a great big painful lesson, and one that's hopefully NEVER forgotten. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps this is a slightly healthier way to look at it, SD, as it would be good if you can release some of those negative "vibes"; primarily for your sake. Hope this helps! <small>[ August 18, 2002, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>
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SC,
Very enlightening and I do see all the merits of plan B. I am finally accepting the reality that this D will happen. That being said, why not start living and acting like I'm divorced with regard to my W, thus plan B, and let her see the reality of being divorce, not having me in her life. I guess I wish I could get a glimpse into her head and heart, if only for a moment, just to know if she's feeling any of the same feelings of disappointment, sadness or emptiness that I'm feeling as our marriage comes to an end. That may not happen until after we're divorced, if ever. I'm hoping going to plan B will bring the onset of those feelings, but if not at least I can begin living my life again sooner than later. Thanks.
sad dad
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sad dad,
My FWH and I are 8 weeks into recovery, and I STILL want him to crash and burn. I sometimes even have thoughts of having an A of my own while he's trying hard to repair the damage his A has caused just to spite the HELL out of him. So believe me you're not alone.
During his fog, he said and did a lot of hurtful things to me. Being 8 mo. pregnant with your third child when your WH tells you he's leaving you for an OW will make you downright suicidal at times.
I think we all wish that our WSs could feel half as hurt, vulnerable and used up as we BSs, and on some level, I think they do. I like to think that he's going through his own personal HELL becoming soomeone he always said he never wanted to be.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 11/01 - W files for D, but proceeds VERY slowly </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 7/01 - I move out; W calls frequently for various "reasons" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yor WW sounds like a cake eater and I applaud you for going ahead with a very necessary, albeit sad Plan B. It sounds like exactly what she needs.
Eventually, reality of an A sets in for every WS. Perhaps not being there for her as a friend or anything else other than a father for your D will slap her in the face with that reality. I seriously doubt OM will jump to take your place once you implement Plan B (something he's probably convinced her will happen, but has no intentions of doing.) When she sees that to be the case, she's in for a real bite in the [censored].
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Hi sd, No, you're not wrong for feeling that way.
Just a couple of thoughts for ya....
Believe me, I felt the same way. Of course you remember, my XH called me crying 2 months after the D: alone, broke, and remorseful. I didn't get any satisfaction from it, except that it fulfilled what several here had predicted to be true, that crime doesn't pay, and fantasy-land doesn't last forever. Turns out NOW that rock-bottom and remorse didn't seem to last very long for him. Too big an ego I guess. (and perhaps I cushioned his fall too much). But he's still alone, and he'll still have to face his demons at some point.
So, I still feel the same way as you. What has he learned? Does he really realize what happened? Will he do it again? Has he suffered like I have? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
BUT.... It's really not my place to wish these things on him. I want him to learn from it, but what level of suffering would I like to see?? I don't know. I have to remind myself to leave it in God's hands. There was a post a couple of months ago on D/D of a former WS/XH that hit rock-bottom and attempted suicide. I truly never want to to face that feeling - of my XH hitting bottom THAT hard. Do you?
So, you're not wrong in feeling that way. I'm just not sure that your "wishes" will ever come to fruition to your satisfaction, so it is more healthy for you to work through those feelings, and let them go eventually.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sad dad: <strong>SC,
Very enlightening and I do see all the merits of plan B. I am finally accepting the reality that this D will happen. That being said, why not start living and acting like I'm divorced with regard to my W, thus plan B, and let her see the reality of being divorce, not having me in her life. I guess I wish I could get a glimpse into her head and heart, if only for a moment, just to know if she's feeling any of the same feelings of disappointment, sadness or emptiness that I'm feeling as our marriage comes to an end. That may not happen until after we're divorced, if ever. I'm hoping going to plan B will bring the onset of those feelings, but if not at least I can begin living my life again sooner than later. Thanks.
sad dad</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SD; fortunately, at some point, the BS does realize that there is nothing he/she can do for the WS beyond the minor influence Plan A and B can have on them.
Only they can choose to look inside, face it and fix it. Or they may choose not to do that, they may choose to D and move on, full of resentment and self-righteousness, still blaming the BS. They may get into anoer R and then realize it, they may not. Some other event in their lives may trigger the realization. Or not.
I guess the point is that there is nothing you can do to make that happen. Sure, you can Plan B, you can D, and MAYBE the feelings they will have from those actions will make them see, feel, act...but they may not. As Faith pointed out...
So be kind to yourself; try to let go of the vindictiveness, of the desire to punish. Love your WS, pray for her, do everything you can to help her. THAT will liberate you. NOT the "punishment" you may inflict on her.
And even if you are divorced, and she crosses your path years from now, when you have truly moved on and "forgotten"...hug her and be kind an loving to her...THAT is the lesson she needs.
I firmly believe this.
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SadDad: I know exactly how you feel about crashing and burning. My stxh has gotten himself into a heap of a mess with the OW that will follow him for many, many years to come. Do I feel vindicated? Yes, in a way. But I also feel sad too. It didn't have to happen; he didn't have to leave me; he didn't have to get in this mess with the OW. In fact, I have never seen anyone mess up their life so fast as my stbxh. And he is definitely paying for it.
There is a certain amount of satisfaction for me in what he is going through but, in the end, it has nothing to do with me anymore and I have to figure out how to get on with my life without him. When you see someone you used to love (and maybe still love to some degree) crash and burn it just isn't all that much fun.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sad dad: <strong>I guess I want her to crash and burn for a couple of reasons. First, if she can walk away from this marriage and never look back, never feel any remorse or pain or guilt, I wonder what kind of a person I really married. Secondly, if she's able to surpress any of those feelings and never hit rock bottom, she'll never deal with the true causes of her unhappiness and that's not good for my daughter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this expresses it very well. No, I don't think you're wrong for feeling this way and I, too, wish my XW AND OM will crash and burn, but I'd like to qualify that.
A very close friend asked me recently whether I hope for my XW's and OM's marriage to be happy, "for the sake of <your son>?"
I think I surprised her when I answered without hesitation, "no."
I hope their marriage fails for the sake of my son. Unless he sees the failure he will not learn ALL the valuable lessons in the lecture he was involuntarily enrolled in.
I think it's the same rationale for hoping for a crash and burn. Let me put words in your mouth: Like me, you don't want them to crash and burn just for the pain, just for vindication. You want the mushroom cloud for the lessons to be learned. It's not vindication or revenge, it's living with the consequences of choices; taking responsibility for one's actions. But, nor do I want them shielded form the pain.
It's just that we don't believe the real learning and personal recovery will come without some significant emotional event.
No pain, no gain! (I just made that up. Clever, huh?).
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WAT,
That is exactly what I wanted to say, but you did a much better job of it. I don't want her to suffer for the sake of suffering, however I do want her to see that she could have handled things better, she had other choices and there are consequences for the choices she's made that unfortunately will affect all of us. If that happens and she learns anything about herself in the process, maybe she can avoid getting into a situation like this in the future. Is that my problem, no, but it does concern me because I don't think the way my W has handled this sets a good example for my daughter of how to deal with the pitfalls of life.
sad dad
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