I have just returned from our week in Menorca, and wish I could be really positive.

H has decided that he feels it will be better to move out, although this is something that he has not mentioned again today.

The week was up and down. Although we had a POJA of sorts, it wasn't really adhered to. H thought it too prescreptive to stick to talking at certain times of the day, so on a few occasions would just start talking and talking. We did have some nice moments, and it would be wrong to say that it was a total disaster, but I have just come back and felt even more worn down and depressed than before going.

H is really really struggling with the pain and dealing with what I have done and I think feels it will be easier if he is not faced with me everyday - some space and time to get over what has happened. Whether he will be able to or whether I will I seriously doubt now.

H tells me how I have hurt him, let him down, rips OM to shreads, belittles the A, etc etc. One night we were "talking" and I said to H "You really hate me don't you?, but I've realised that he doesn't hate me at all, he just has no respect for me anymore. He also feels that because of his behaviour, I am loosing respect for him. I'm not, but I just feel worn down every day, and then become defensive because I'm trying to protect myself from the repetitions of how H feels, what I've done to him, what a sordid nasty business it is, the gratuitous nature of some of the things he says and so on..........

I just don't think that this is doing either of us any good, and see fewer and fewer reasons to stay together. Do I just have to get on with the way he feels indefinitely? I know it is early days, and I can't even begin to comprehend how I have hurt him, but I do try to support and care for him, and it's just not happening. I feel that I want to distance myself to protect me - being selfish again.

What do we do now?

Oh, the books arrived when we were away, so have started SAA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi LIL,

I am the one who was hurt and have been trying for 4 months to repair, but he decided last night that he can't deal with what he did and look at me every day. He is also still living with feeling for the OW which he isn't dealing with. She lives in another province (15hours away) and he has not communicated to hear since he ended it(so he swears to), and then wonders why the feelings didn't just disappear...DUUUHHH!! I told him last night htat things don't just fix themselves, they need fixing, but he admits he just doesn't have it in him-13 years gone...I am torn between just letting him go and raging and fighting for all i am worth.
I wish i could say i understand all of what your H is going through but i don't, what i do think i understand is the lack of self respect, and not being able to forget. His pride is probably crushed and he doesn't understand what is making him want to forgive you-especially if he spent his life believing it was something he couldn't forgive. Has he read After the Affair?? Get him to read it, it might help...

Take care, hope this works out.

Dear Lisa:

I am sorry for the pain you and your H are going through. I also feel that violence is never justified. I also think that besides the violence your H's reactions are normal and if the roles were reversed you must admit you would have those feelings as well. It is very early in this situation.

Lisa, I think the bottom line here is you and not your H. What do you want? Do you want to stay or go. You must decide that for yourself before you can put a plan together to rebuild. Your viewpoints from the very beginning have been from a negative stance that this will never work. A negative attitude will insure the M will not recover. I wonder how much your H is reacting to your attitude versus just the A.

This is not to say you are good or bad and it is not a flame. It just is. You however must decide for yourself what it is you want. Nothing will go forward until you do.

I will pray for you and your family.

Jack

Zachsmom and Jack - thank you both. When I read what Zachsmom says, it just makes me feel guilty that I am WS and people still support me even with their own troubles.

Jack - I just don't know what I want anymore. Our M was never going to be easy when my H returned from Germany after being apart for 2 years. I agreed that he should come home because I thought it was the right thing to do, even though I was unsure whether or not our M could work. Just Learning has been so helpful, and said that neither of us could be 100% sure, and with time we would probably be able to come to a decision together about whether or not we could work things out. I still feel like that - not sure if we can work things our or not, but there is still a little bit of glue holding us together. Yes, I think you are right about my attitude, and how it affects him - I get defenisve and bullish because I try to protect myself - my apologies (although heartfelt), truly seem to make not a jot of difference, so I try a different way. Probably not good. I am finding it exceptionally difficult to be physically warm towards him and this hurts him greatly too.

I just don't know but so value the help and advice here......

Lisa,
You need to quit beating yourself up. No one is perfect. You are human and you made a mistake.
Your H can either realize he is lucky because you ended the A and want to work on the marriage.
Or, he can continue to berate you and make you feel bad about himself.
I know the guilt wayward spouses feel. I see it in my husbands eye's everyday and I am not even sure we are on our way to recovery.
Please try to get into some counseling. Preferably with the Harley's or a counselor familiar with the marriage building principals.
Don't feel bad because you have betrayed spouses giving you support.
You forget that by showing remorse you show us a glimmer of hope that our wayward spouses will someday see the light also.
Hugs to you,
Layli

Dear Lisa,

I hope JustLearning comes back here soon - I also find his wisdom very enlightening.

I am sorry you have come back feeling lower than before, but I think this is probably "normal". The week away was to give you both some alone time together - the chance to see whether or not you could build bridges - you said you had some nice times together, too - please try to keep these in mind instead of concentrating on all the bad feelings. It might help if you were to journal these good times - write them down in detail - we all "forget" the good times when the difficult episodes rear their ugly head - but if you write the good times down, you can go back to them and remind yourself that YES you did have something there and YES you were able to do that even after that horrible conversation and if you keep doing this, you will see that these good times add up like little building blocks - right now they are only thin rope bridges across the void, but they ARE there - Rome was not built in a day.

<strong>
H has decided that he feels it will be better to move out, although this is something that he has not mentioned again today.</strong>
Your H is probably feeling indecisive. I would not even mention him moving out - just drop it. Don't ask him whether he has made any decisions - he might feel he has to make a decision he is not really ready for. When and if he starts talking, just tell him that you still want things to work out and you are trying to learn how to heal your marriage.

<strong>The week was up and down. Although we had a POJA of sorts, it wasn't really adhered to. H thought it too prescreptive to stick to talking at certain times of the day, so on a few occasions would just start talking and talking.</strong>
I think your H is going through a sort of "de-briefing" here. He needs to talk over and over again, as wearing as that is for you right now. It's a reaction to trauma and if you can see it that way, and know that this is just a process he has to go through and it will end at some point. Before I had children, I didn't understand why women talked about their labour experiences in such detail. Listening to them was irritating because it sounded like some sort of "pain competition". After I had children and started going to mother and toddler groups, I would hear women do this over and over again, after every child - 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th child, it didn't matter - for weeks after the labour, they would be sitting there with a new baby and talking about all the gory details over and over again. I finally realized that this is women's way of de-stressing the incredibly traumatic experience of labour, the most overwhelming emotional and physical stress you will ever feel packed into a few hours (or days). Birth, for all its joy at the end, is traumatic. And women need to de-stress afterwards.

I see your H's talking and talking as doing this kind of destressing. He is emotionally traumatized and needs to work through it. He is trying to work through it with you. You naturally find having to hear his thoughts and feelings painful. But the best thing you can do for your marriage is to be patient with him. I don't think you need to bow your head and take repeated abuse - you have apologized to him and shown remorse. I think, in my case, when/if my H got defensive it would/does just make me furious - and rev up my feelings all over again - him being defensive just makes me feel that he is blaming me for his affair, and justifying himself all over again.

<strong>
H is really really struggling with the pain and dealing with what I have done and I think feels it will be easier if he is not faced with me everyday - some space and time to get over what has happened.</strong>
He probably does need some time, now that he has seen you, to digest seeing you again. He will need quiet, alone time to mull over your reunion. Hopefully he will look at the good times and see that you still have something to build on.
<strong> Whether he will be able to or whether I will I seriously doubt now. </strong>
Don't second guess him, or project your own doubt onto him.

<strong>H tells me how I have hurt him, let him down, rips OM to shreads, belittles the A, etc etc. One night we were "talking" and I said to H "You really hate me don't you?, but I've realised that he doesn't hate me at all, he just has no respect for me anymore.</strong>
The most painful thing for me was losing the respect and admiration I had for the man I loved. The BS does lose respect for the WS. But that respect can be rebuilt, by the WS behaviour. It's not as if, once gone, never regained. In fact, the respect can come back even stronger, when the BS accepts that the WS is a human being, capable of making mistakes, but willing and able to work hard to regain trust, and to behave in a way which commands respect. You need to regain your own self-respect, but again, this comes with time and hard work.

<strong>He also feels that because of his behaviour, I am loosing respect for him. I'm not, but I just feel worn down every day, and then become defensive because I'm trying to protect myself from the repetitions of how H feels, what I've done to him, what a sordid nasty business it is, the gratuitous nature of some of the things he says and so on..........</strong>
Reassure him that he has not lost your respect - he is hating himself for his own angry reactions - strong feelings he has never had before, and behaviour he does not respect in himself. These situations challenge all of us as human beings - we are none of us perfect - loving is accepting each other even with our faults. It is reasonable to expect that we should behave towards each other with respect - it is not reasonable to expect each other to be perfect.

<strong>I just don't think that this is doing either of us any good, and see fewer and fewer reasons to stay together. </strong> This is just running away from the problem. The idea that marriage is supposed to be something always positive and if you have problems that "bring out the worst in each other", you get out of the marriage. When you have problems, you try to work and change - the way you communicate, your own bad habits, your own selfish behaviour. The materials on this site give you excellent resources for tackling what couples need in a very clear way. Don't just quit before you do the work.

<strong> Do I just have to get on with the way he feels indefinitely?</strong> Of course not. At some point, you both need to decide you will leave off the negative and start looking at your future together. It IS early days yet, but don't give up. You have hardly begun. If you are seriously depressed, I would consider getting some anti-depressants for awhile.

<strong> I feel that I want to distance myself to protect me.</strong> Where will this get you? Alone. I would say - never try to talk to man who is mad. When you see him getting himself worked up, tell him you love him and you are trying to understand how he feels, you are sorry you have hurt him, but you think it would be better if you talk later. Don't say "after you've calmed down" - that will make him even madder. Cut short the conversations that get too long and overheated by saying you want to talk about this, but think it would be better if you come back to it later. This will give him the space he needs to defuse. Most likely he will come back and be more reasonable and your next conversation will be more likely to bring you closer.

I do wish you all the best. Hang in there.

LIR

LIR

Thank you for your response, I read every word carefully and again.

H gave me back the e-mails that he had printed off but re-read them today which has angered and upset him again. He talked about moving out again. As Jack said, do I really want to stick with it? I've spent 2 years living a relatively independent life, and it is hard just having him back in the house, let alone anything else.

I have started reading SAA and H said that it doesn't talk about the humiliation he has faced -in his words, I was actively encouraged in my affair with 2 of my friends, which he absolutely finds unforgiveable. I have re-read the mails myself and just see it as a time and a place that I was at then - I was madly in love with OM and most things were rosy. Of course, it has hurt him beyond belief, but it doesn't make me feel any worse or better knowing what I wrote. The A was the thing that was wrong, the betrayal and surely that is what we have to get over, not how he found out and the detail he read. I know that is awful, but I want to move away if we can from the detail, to trying to recover from the A. My H does not want me to discuss our business with anyone, and that makes me feel isolated too, although I have MB, he is even getting upset about me logging on here.

On top of this, I know OM is back from his holiday now. I keep wondering how him and his BS will take the phone message left by my H and whether or not he will call. I don't want to think about him, or what they are doing, but it just brings the pain and upset back and I don't want it as well as trying to deal with my poor betrayed H. It just confuses me more.

It is not enough for my H that I love and care for him. We have other issues to deal with, and he things that clearly, I don't love and care enough. If I tell him I love him, he just doesn't believe it, and who can blame him....

I just can't cope with it, the mess, the pain, the upset, what I've done to someone who I claimed to love. I am depressed I know, and have been taking herbal remedies, don't really want to go to anti-depressants. I suggested that for H, and he was angry with me - thought I was being condecending.

It really is so messy - hindsight is a great thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thank you for your support.

Dear Lisa,

I am really sorry for you - since I haven't been in your position, I don't know how I would live with an angry and unforgiving BS. The thing I would say is that you can expect the "fallout" to last awhile, and most BS will tell you that there are "triggers" which cause the memories to resurge again and again.

Over and over, I see the WS say "why can't she/he just forget it and go on?" - well, we can't "just forget it and go on". You are the one with the "rosy" memories - for us, all the memories are bad. And we relive the time when we thought everything was OK, going over our "good times" and wondering what was REALLY going on. Like in my case, last X-mas was really good - my H was v generous and I thought, v loving - I got more presents than I ever had - thoughtful ones. But he was "dating" OW2 at the time. Now I look back and think "was this genuine, or was he just assuaging his guilty conscience, or was he trying to pacify me?" His "generosity" doesn't look like generosity anymore and I don't know what it was. I also met OW2 - my H is a classical musician (plenty of room there to meet OP, stay out late, etc.) - my H played a concert, and came home afterwards with friends helping him move his instrument back into the house. This girl was with them - I thought she was with one of the guys helping move the instrument. She stood in my living room and talked to me about her degree course and about babysitting for mutual friends and offered to babysit for me! Then she waltzed out the door with H when he said he "just had to take these guys out for a drink to say thank you". My H has lots of friends in his profession, so I kinda thought this was OK, but wondered who she was with - turns out she was with him! I look back on that and think - he was so loving - he kissed me goodbye - he looked so happy - I thought it was because he had a good concert - was it because he was having his cake and eating it, too and had just proved it to himself. What a damn cheek! I also saw all the e-mails that passed between her and him. They were incredibly painful to read - just the intimate flirting, the pet names, the banter, the passionate attraction - and him saying "I'm a sensitive musician - you're lucky you don't have to live with me." I just about screamed. I LOVE that he is a sensitive musician and I DO have to live with him. I cannot get these words or memories out of my head and neither can your husband.

BUT - I can lessen the impact of these words by BUILDING new happy times together. Since then, my H has started trying to rebuild with me. It is only concerted. slow and patient, loving effort that will replace these bad memories of your husband's with new, renewing ones.

I can tell you that I felt really angry that my H would talk to other people about me and about his problems with me, and say that he was working on us when he would NEVER talk to me directly about us. I have suffered from depression in the past. He would tell people that he really struggled to deal with my depression. He would not talk to ME about what he needed from me. In other words, he talked to people about "my" problems to justify his own behaviour - naturally people sympathized with him. But he did not ever try to directly address the problems with me. Instead of doing that, it was easier for him to start a new relationship that was fun and easy, instead of even letting me know he felt that bad about us. I wasn't happy either, but didn't have any idea he felt that bad about things.

I'm just trying to fish around here in my own experience to try to find some way of explaining where your H might be coming from and why he flares up repeatedly.

I really think you both need to see a counsellor and talk through these things in the presence of an experienced third party. I seem to remember that you were going to go to Relate. Any success with getting an appointment yet? If he has not done this yet, I suggest you do and tell him you have done this. This will show your willingness to try to rebuild your marriage. Remember that a good MC will try to help you BUILD love back between you, not try to resolve your conflict in such a way that you eventually separate. There are some good articles here on this site - Dealing with Resentment - have you read them? They are quite short. Perhaps he would be willing to read a short article if you printed it off?

Just a thought. I will be away until about the 29th, so if I don't check in with you, I am not ignoring you. Will look in when I come back.
Take care.

LIR

Thanks again LIR - not sure if you will get this or not before you go away.

Last night, H said I was not communiating with him, which related very much to your story, although I am just finding it difficult, because anything I say, he just seems to take exception to. He says all I do is read SAA and come on this website. I don't think he understands that I'm desperately searching for answers and help about how to deal with all this. I also feel that he wants to isolate me from my friends because of my communication with them - although both of the two in question I have not been in touch with for various reasons.

Again last night he talked about moving out, although in the afternoon, he'd talked about staying. He said that wasn't so, and I'd misunderstood him, but this is also giving me alot of pain and trouble dealing with it - one minute I think he is going to stay, the next I think he's planning on leaving.

I also find it very hard to be affectionate, because his mood changes so often in a day. Angry and upset and then trying to be loving. I just can't deal with it, and feel like I'm rapidly heading for just running myself. I try and protect myself, because everyday, I know there will be a trigger that sets him off.

On top of that, I miss OM and don't want to. I want to be over it, and I don't know when that will happen.

I don't expect my H to "forgive and forget", but I do need to know that he is either committed to working on whether we can stay together or not. I followed the advice of JL and I thought this was what we had both agreed, that we could see if we could make a firm commitment to each other within the next 6 months.

He started his new job today which at least means we are not together 24/7. Again though, I find it incredibly difficult him being back in the house after 2 years. My life feels so strange with him here. Perhaps I am meant to be alone, surely it would be easier than this. I know negative talk.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

One more thing, H is having IC as am I, but he talked yesterday about MC, so I will do either. It still troubles me how I have got to this place though, and I feel IC would be a good thing for me.

One thing that strikes me... maybe entirely the wrong thing for me to say here, I hope I'm not planting any suspicions into your mind without having any ground... anyway:

You say that your husband was basically away for 2 years. Something very elementary: how did he fulfill his sxeual needs? surely, he didn'd live a monks life, or did he? Or did you meet up on a regular basis for him to fulfill this particular need? I mean, I would go nuts if I would have to live 2 years without. Every man would.

Did you talk about that? Is there another angle to the whole story?

Hi Nick

I did mention in an earlier post that we met every 2 to 3 weeks and we did have some holidays in the two years.

However, I have found it incredibly difficult to actually put into words here how I feel about that whole issue. Basically, several years before the A, I have not been meeting my H's SN and intimacy levels have been very bad. This is entirely my fault, I just don't fancy my husband anymore, and I reiterate that this happened well before the A. Of course now, one of the worst things about the A is that he read how incredible sex was with OM and that it was "unique".

Anyway, I don't want to go there, but if we can work everything else out, what about this huge thing? How do you start fancying someone again when you haven't for a long time? I can pin down the incident that changed my feelings - again this was about me and not my H. So what do I do? Will I ever want to really be with him again. One of the other things he read in an e-mail was that at times, he "repulsed me". I know these are awful awful things that I said, and no, he doesn't repulse me, but I have no desire to be with him in that way.

So there, it's out. Now what? How can I get that back?

HELP!!!

Hi Lisa,

I see exactly where you're coming from. My WW too mentioned how greatly her SN were fulfilled by OM, and at the same time must have felt 'repulsed' by me, as she sort of felt obliged to fulfill my SN too. as a result, she didnt enjoy S with me very much, I dont with her neither. Purely mechanical, w/o feelings, thinking probably get over with it quicker. Is that how you feel? possibly.
Now, dont despair. How can you have great S with your husband with all that cr*p going on in the background? check out the Q&A section on this site, there are a couple of similar letters where Harley wrote, essentially, the quality of S is really a result of everything else. Now, I beleive that. Dont expect any miracles there, dont feel under pressure. when everything else is fine, this will be fine too. for your husband that might be more difficult to understand as men typically can separate between emotions and the physical thing, whilst women cant.
I understand your husband perfectly in that, to get the message that you're not satisfying your wife, (ie, "your not a real man") is tough to accept and explain away. Male pride going south, big time.

Thanks for your honesty Nick, but it's not so much how can we get great S back, but how can we have S at all.... Things had got really bad before the A, and I just wouldn't address them. Foolishly, because in so many other ways everything else worked well, I thought it didn't really matter. When my H would go on about it, I just thought, at least we're lucky, we communicate are affectionate and can share. Of course, what the A did teach me, is that S is very very important in a R. Not perhaps the most important thing, but very necessary.

I do not want to give exact times, amounts, but S has been very infrequent in several years - as I say again, way before the A started. What if you just don't fancy someone anymore? My H is always very smartly turned out, nice looking etc. but just doesn't/hasn't "done" it for me in a while.

BIG HELP NEEDED HERE

dont have any specific step by step suggestions here.... all I can say is that before you two are not sorted out emotionally, form a bond somehow in your hearts, S wont significantly improve. Otherwise for you it will be just an obligation, which you learnt to hate. that's the implication of your "I dont fancy him" comment - your emotional shutters are down for the moment.

Maybe the best is to take a playful, softly softly approach to it. Maybe you should take the lead on this, tell him how you like it? this, combined with your willingness to let him into your heart again, to feel for him again, might improve the situation.

LiL,

You have been getting very good advice from LIR as well as others. I think Nick hit something on the head and it is something that you need to consider. SEX

Yup, us Yanks as obsessed with SEX. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously, your H has read that you are "repulsed" by him. He has read that the OM satisfied you and you had great sex. He has read that you love the OM deeply. These were all your words.

So here he sits. He wants the marriage to survive, because he does love you. Yet he knows that virtually all that is important in a marriage, love and sex, you wanted and had/have with the OM. Yup, you heard me all that was important. He didn't need you for financial support, he didn't need you to have someone to talk to or confide in, after all you were lying to him. Further, when he mentioned sexual needs, you just patted him on the head and moved on to MORE IMPORTANT things.

So he has a problem. What he wants, the marriage and you, he cannot have in his mind. You don't want what he could possibly offer, right? You don't want to meet his needs or even bother with his happiness. So he goes up and down. On the one hand he still loves you and wants a good marriage, and then he reflects on what the marriage was before and what you have said about him and to the OM, and he crashes.

This is going to happen for quite awhile. What could help? I will go back to the standard: TIME and PATIENCE. But, it might also help if you have learned something in this whole mess.
You stated that you have learned that sex is important to men, and that you realize that a good relationship/marriage probably includes a sexual component. If you truely now understand this, perhaps it is time you tell your H that you learned one thing and that is if you two are to make it, the sexual side of the marriage must and will improve.

That means you are willing to work on this. It doesn't mean that you are willing to jump in the sack with him right now. It means as both of you heal you are willing to focus on this aspect of your relationship.

Lisa, this is still all new. Your H is going to struggle with this whole thing for quite awhile. Untill you come out of withdrawal you won't feel much for him and surely won't feel much like intimacy. BUT, if you want to give this marriage a chance you must be willing to work at this for 6 months to a year. It will take at least the length of time of your affair.

Further, you can expect that your reassurances won't seem to help much, but they do. He will need them constantly. Have you read about Plan A? It is where the BS is supposed to meet the needs of the WS, supposed to stop the LB's, and supposed to work on themselves and the things they did wrong in the marriage. Yet, during plan A, these efforts are very very rarely recognized by the WS, especially if the affair is still going. Plan A rarely has any effect on the ending of the affair. The narural progression is then Plan B, and that often doesn't stop the affair. But they weren't designed to stop the affair or for the BS to get feed back. The benefits of Plan A are only seen when the affair ends, withdrawal is completed and then the WS often wakes up and goes WOW," I don't believe he/she could and did do this."

Your reassurances will have a cumlative affect, they are needed, and they will help. You just won't see the affect right now. As for needing assurances from your H, all I can say is that he is still there and trying. He has every right to throw you out, and divorce you for what you have done, yet he hasn't. Please read what I wrote above. He wants the marriage and your love, but he despairs that you are telling him the truth. He struggles with his failures, yup even the sexual ones. He is still seeking firm ground to stand on.

But, if you will hang in there, you will gradually see improvement. You will see your attachment to OM fade, and you will see your H's need to go over details and rehash what he has read fade. You will start to see the balance between bad feelings and moments shift to having more good feelings and civil times.

This is an evolutionary process and I think your comments to Nick really should be reviewe by you. You need to seek out what it will take and what happened before the A. I would bet money, your H took this job overseas because he felt you didn't really care if he stayed or went and the lack of sex had a lot to do with it. If you learn nothing from this site, then you must learn that needs are real and men's need for sex is both real and usually THE most important need we have.

Please think about this, but meanwhile do you best. I do hope that he decides to stay with you longer, because you two will gradually learn to live together again. Something else that you and he need to learn.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL and Nick

JL glad to hear some words from you as well as Nick and LIR

"That means you are willing to work on this. It doesn't mean that you are willing to jump in the sack with him right now. It means as both of you heal you are willing to focus on this aspect of your relationship.

Lisa, this is still all new. Your H is going to struggle with this whole thing for quite awhile. Untill you come out of withdrawal you won't feel much for him and surely won't feel much like intimacy. BUT, if you want to give this marriage a chance you must be willing to work at this for 6 months to a year. It will take at least the length of time of your affair."

OK, don't know how to do the quote thing, but I have told him that this is something I will work on JL, but he has said he is not prepared to wait for 6 months or a year to put things right - categorically not. I know it is important and I know I have issues that I have to address with him, but he just says "How will it get better, it hasn't yet".

I have also read about Plan A and B, have nearly finsihed SAA and am going to give it to H to read. I talked a little to him last night. I mentioned to him (as the conversation was good), the outline concept of LBing, Love Bank and deposits. He found another website called "Betrayal, Trust, Forgiveness" which adopts a similar approach. He says it is impossible for him to do, stop LBing and bite his tongue - can't or won't do it. So again, last night, before our reasonable talk, I had to have him come in and just abuse me for half an hour, really lewd sexual comments, etc. What do I want to do? Get out as quickly as possible and defend myself.

I know I am in withdrawal, and I still cry every day for OM - I really don't want to though, honest and I know time will help. I know H is hurt and what he's doing I understand completely, but I just cannot see how it can do either of us any good to have this continual fallout.

He sees the S thing is too big to overcome - everything else is possible, but not that. I have told him that of course that has to be part of the whole R, but he can't see how. Am going to hand SAA over to him tonight and we have also got a MC session this evening. At the moment, I feel so down, I see no point in going, although of course, I will.

Thank you for your help - please keep helping me, I need it so badly.

that chap down in clapham I mentioned works on that as well.... I had only 1 session with him, but a colleague recommended him warmly - he & his wife go him for quite a while already and are doing well

Thanks Nick - the person we are going to see is Relate trained, and it is quite a large clinic closer to us in north London. I think for both of us to have to go so far from home may not be conducive to making an effort, but I will bear it in mind if this doesn't have much effect.

I think really, I do feel so worn down and negative about everything at the moment, it just feels so hard. I wait all the time for his next "angry outburst", as I know sure as eggs is eggs it's going to happen.

Will keep you posted.

Lisa,

I think you and your H need to understand the time issue. With time many things will change even if he doesn't see how. Further, not LB'ing doesn't mean you have to bit your tongue. It means you do your best to express yourself without insulting the other person. I realize that this early on, it is not easy to do but it is the goal.

I would expect the first month or so to be the worst. I would also mention to you and your H that the opposite of love is NOT hate, it is indifference. It doesn't sound to me like either of you are indifferent at this point.

Your H cannot see how things will be better for a simple reason. He cannot see the future, and he isn't really looking for solutions. He is looking for something magic to help with the pain and the devastation. There is no such thing. Same with you. You can cry and pine away for the OM, but if OM is off rebuilding his marriage and you want to rebuild yours, then something else has to be done.

It matters not to me which plan you use, but make a plan and stick with it. You will find that as time moves along and you two continue to talk you just might find people buried under all of the pain worth loving again. You really might. It does happen here frequently.

So hang in there, and let H blow off steam, he will wake up and be very embarressed fairly soon.

God Bless,

JL