I know I sound like a broken record... "Oh it's J.R. again, off worrying too much about his WW."

Well, it's not so much HER, but me... Worried that I'm being taken for a ride that will never get me where I want to go. Worried that I'm making too much of a sacrifice for someone who I can't trust, maybe ever. I see the stories of people out there - and the ones that "make it" just seem to have a different flavor to me lately, for some reason.

First, any recent signs of "fog clearing" have disappeared... Not that this is a surprise to anyone, I'm sure. It's pretty normal. But regardless, I feel like I am being taken for a ride - being reeled in as a safety net, not based on an honest love.

Second, I promised I'd take a look at things at the end of the month - almost here. I'm supposed to talk to Steve tomorrow and IC/MC Tuesday, so that's okay - not sure how much they can really say, however. I think Steve won't have any magic bullets other than "time" and IC/MC will probably still want to believe that the fog is clearing. I know different - quite the opposite, likely.

Third, our d-day anniversary is coming up here... Sept. 3rd. It'll have been a year of an active A... EA and PA continuing... Lots of pain inflicted willfully, even as I sat there, taking it, not LB'ing, having my LB$ destroyed bit by bit. Ugh, sorry for the vent.

Fourth, I've been thinking about some things that people here have said, mainly JL and H4F... About the fact that WW doesn't really have all the information that I do about my own state. Is it fair to her to deny her the fact that we are so very close to "the end"? Regardless of LB's or pressure or whatever - facts are facts. We are on the edge of the abyss here.

I've contemplated what my feelings are... and wrote this... not sure where I'm going with it, but I can at least share it with Steve / IC/MC soon... feelings that last as long as these have must be based on something more than a fleeting anger...

WW,

I've had some time to think lately... been looking at things - differently. I guess I've had my own series of epiphanies.

I've got to admit: I do still love you... but you had to know this wasn't going to go on forever... right? It's hard to accept that it's been a whole year of open pain now.

I deserve a good, happy life with someone who's got the vitality, strength, dedication, and healthy attitudes I want to see in my life. If you aren't going to be there... well, I'm not getting any younger... I want kids to dote over, care for, and look up to me. I want to have a best friend and lover who's willing to "help me" be a better person and share all sorts of great experiences. I know you want this for me - one way or another.

I've tried to give you a lot of space and time - I know it's helped me. I've finally gotten myself to a place where I can say, "I'm ready to move on - with or without you." It's so very hard to say that - it was never my first choice - but I can't accept living like this forever. There's a lot of good to be had, and I sure miss someone to share "me" with. It's become obvious that I've got a couple of things going for me - it'll still be a lot of work, mind you - starting all over.

I guess I'm trying to say "I'm ready" - for you to go ahead and file for divorce. I'm seriously looking at moving back to Canada, too, at some point here. I came down here to be with you, and if I'm not going to be, why stay where I'm constantly reminded of you?

I had hoped some recent efforts were "real" enough to carry us into some kind of recovery, but I think I greatly misestimated where we were going. That's my fault. It's also my fault for saying one thing: "we can't have contact while someone else is in the picture" and doing another. I'm sorry for behaving inconsistently. That will change, God willing.

There will obviously be some business for us to take care of in the next while. I hope we can do that quickly and as painlessly as possible. I would expect that you'd want to permanently move to ZZZ soon - less commute, less expensive, etc. It seems silly to be paying $ZZZ a month in rent.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm coping out... A year is a long time to live like this, and I won't live another like the last. Life is too short.

At least now, you can relax and focus more on the future, knowing that it isn't about making a choice any longer. I wish you peace, joy and love for the remainder of your days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>JR: Third, our d-day anniversary is coming up here... Sept. 3rd. It'll have been a year of an active A... EA and PA continuing... Lots of pain inflicted willfully, even as I sat there, taking it, not LB'ing, having my LB$ destroyed bit by bit. Ugh, sorry for the vent.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Feel for you JR! I'm feeling for you because my DDay anniversary is Aug. 26th, and I'm dreading it too!!! Exactly the same feelings...draining, self-destructing, slowly, inexorably. Very tough!

I'm not sure about the letter, I guess something's needed since you've not held to a NC Plan B...maybe strictly sticking to that might make some of the signs start coming back? Worth a shot, I think. Before chucking it all.

Hang in there!

SC,

At least I've got an appointment tomorrow with Steve... I've failed to do some of my homework, namely talking to some lawyers... got a little sidetracked, which is my own fault.

I think it was Orchid who did something like call up her WH at one point and say, "Yeah, I'm ready for you to file"... (you out there, Orchid to confirm?)... fight fog with fog?? Being agreeable has some power... but in my case, since she's never, ever pushed the Dv topic, I have no clue how she might react... frankly, I'd welcome ANY reaction!

I think a big part of the problem for me is that I'm becoming far too confident in myself... I KNOW I can do very well, find a very, very nice girl somewhere... I know that WW will never believe that agape love is the "best" kind of love, nor will any romantic love we recapture likely be "good enough" for her... or at least until every last ounce of her romantic love for OM is dead and gone... and that could take a heck of a long time... the typcial WS response appears to be 2 years. That's a long, long time to wait in this state. I figure that by moving on, maybe I find someone else, maybe I don't by the time she comes out of it... But by waiting like this... I'm not living like I want to be living - I've got some clear ideas of what I want, and I can't get there while we're married, or she's got her head up her butt. And since I have absolutely no control over the head in butt thing... leaves very little choice.

As for the pure NC thing... I've done pretty well for long stretches... Knowing her, NC itself has meant very little comparatively... She has been able to use stretches of NC, I believe, to further her A time. The limited contact has enabled a few moments when I've become the "OM" - and some candid comments from her... not sure she appreciate the emotional infidelity involved!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Again, it'll be good to talk to the pros the next 2 days...

Hey there JR...sorry I didn't get back to you this morning.

I was thinking about what you'd written...and I do tend to think your minimal contact led to more contact which led to much contact. That definatly clouded over the "severity" of her need to make a decision and while you kept her "up to date" on how you were she had no reason to worry if she was losing you.

At this point, however, going "back" to Plan B (like the letter you sent said) doesn't hold the fear or consequence it once did, because now she knows it's negotiable at a whim.

I know you're tired and she's STILL STUCK. So...it is most likely quite soon the next step will soon be taken. I hope Steve offers some good insight for you there. I didn't critique the letter you just posted...but all in all I think it was very good. You sounded fed up, calm, and ready to move on. Not needy, not "I love you, please lets work this out"....just ready to move on.

In our case I was very much like your wife. I'd get close to seeing the light...and then I'd RUN the other way. Not necessarily to the OM...just back to doing it MY WAY. I grabbed my backpack full of justification and resentment and headed right back down the wrong road. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WHO KNOWS what game your wife is playing...it's so hard to figure out if she's really working on her issues or just stalling for "me" time.

Good luck tomorrow, I hope Steve has some answers for you!!!

(((JR))))

Oh it's J.R. again, off worrying too much about his WW

We're here to listen. I feel like this too sometimes, but I know the people here care.

This kind of pain, it takes a long time to reconcile with, especially if your living in 'limbo' waiting, which we are really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, any recent signs of "fog clearing" have disappeared... Not that this is a surprise to anyone, I'm sure. It's pretty normal. But regardless, I feel like I am being taken for a ride - being reeled in as a safety net, not based on an honest love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it hurts dosen't it? You feel like the second best option.

Your letter is very touching and sad. I'm sorry you have got to this point. I too hope SH has some good advice for you and you can work towards peace.

JR;
Hope may be right, and it's worth asking Steve, but you may have "blown" the opportunity for the NC to be effective. Curious to see what Steve says.

Have you talked to Steve about this on-going contact, even if sporadic? What has he said?

Truth is, some WSs have reacted to the D filing the way we hope they might react to Plan B, by taking their heads out of their derriers...so that may be an option, which at the same time allows you to continue your road forward.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, it's not so much HER, but me... Worried that I'm being taken for a ride that will never get me where I want to go. Worried that I'm making too much of a sacrifice for someone who I can't trust, maybe ever. I see the stories of people out there - and the ones that "make it" just seem to have a different flavor to me lately, for some reason.

First, any recent signs of "fog clearing" have disappeared... Not that this is a surprise to anyone, I'm sure. It's pretty normal. But regardless, I feel like I am being taken for a ride - being reeled in as a safety net, not based on an honest love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know exactly where you are coming from, J.R. You posted a reply to my thread a few days ago about my WW coming out of the fog. Since then, I haven't heard a peep out of her. Sort of makes me feel like she needed to see if her "backup" was still there.

It's confusing as hell to me. WW really said a lot of positive things, and a few negative things such as doing the DV thing, anyway. I let her do most of the talking, and she even got into a conversation about maybe we could get remarried after the DV and have the wedding she never had. After I had posted after her second visit, she even called later that night and we talked for a couple of hours. Now...four days later with her next door, and nothing from her, nada, zilch. I know the feeling of being possibly "jerked around".

I have a little more in me, though. I later posted that I was indifferent. It seems to me that you are reaching that point as well. I know we can't keep saying that we will make the major move at a certain time. Doesn't seem to work that way.

Pepperband reiterated to me in my post to let it unfold on its own timetable. Maybe you should sort of look at it the same way, and not put a certain time frame on it like the end of the month. Ride it out as long as you can, and when you are ready to really move on, the date and time will be irrelevant. You just may be setting yourself up for some kind of dissapointment when you put the timetable on it.

I know about the not getting younger thing. I am 41, and have no children. I really would like to have a child. The WW and I were finally going to do it, and she went as far as to quit her original job, and go off the pill. However, she changed her mind even after being so adamant about it. She said that since we had always went where we wanted, did ANYTHING we wanted, and had pretty much had what we wanted within our means, she felt like she may be giving up a lot. She is just 32, so I really didn't push the issue. She had a few years or so left before the risk was too great. Needless to say, the REAL reason she changed her mind was due to the fact she started her A at that time, and risking a P was tooooooooo great.

So....I know where you are. I had detached pretty well, and was into the making of some large future plans (building my house) so I could have a jump-start when the Dv was final. I just knew that the DV was a sure bet. She has thrown a kink in that, though, with her recent "fogging".

This probably ain't helping much, but just wanting to let you know that there are some of us here that can feel EXACTLY what you do.

Hang in there. You will know what to do when the time comes, and you won't have any reservations about it.

HCII

H4F: At this point, however, going "back" to Plan B (like the letter you sent said) doesn't hold the fear or consequence it once did, because now she knows it's negotiable at a whim.

JR: Wellll... I'll sure give it a try... if that's what it'll take, but then again, how can any of us know what it will truly take until it happens? She hasn't exactly negotiated her "dream scenario" here - having both of us... I'm still sitting here, unwilling to budge without some commitment. Contact we have had has had some rationale, and is somewhat based on knowing how she perceives things. And somewhat based on some stuff Steve said a while ago. I'll be definitely firming up my path shortly.

H4F: I grabbed my backpack full of justification and resentment and headed right back down the wrong road.

JR: Interesting that it seems for you it only started to make sense when that became the ONLY road in town!!! So long as she feels she has CHOICES, I think she's going to do this terrible, terrible thing. BUT... When push comes to shove... I look at the little pieces of evidence - the lucid moments - to give me some hope. It's almost a curse right now - to have hope. In many ways, I wish I had none - it would make the next steps much easier.

H4F: WHO KNOWS what game your wife is playing...it's so hard to figure out if she's really working on her issues or just stalling for "me" time.

JR: I wish I knew, because then I could at least chart a path that leads me out of the woods more quickly. I'll be very interested to talk with IC/MC NEXT week (I'm going to schedule one then, in addition to Tuesday's).

Seahorse: This kind of pain, it takes a long time to reconcile with, especially if your living in 'limbo' waiting, which we are really.

JR: It's certainly not an easy path, but in some ways, I see it as the most "just" - since she doesn't "get off the hook" so easily. If I just up and quit, she can point to that and in a way claim "victory". Sadly, one thing that keeps me going is a determination to force her to face her choices head-on. So I will probably wait until I have nothing left in me... she needs to know that.

SC: Have you talked to Steve about this on-going contact, even if sporadic? What has he said?

JR: He asked me well before I started Plan B, "Think about what your Plan B might look like." I just assumed they were all the same, by the book so to speak. His point was that there's a spectrum between A and B, and for different situations (e.g. people without kids), there's sometimes a reason to "keep your name in front of her". With kids, at least there's a connection there that can't be broken. He (as well as I) feared somewhat that separation would just allow her to drift away, aimlessly. On a level I think it has, but I also think she misses me quite a bit... the question is what's the breaking point? And will she reach it soon enough?

hcii: I know the feeling of being possibly "jerked around".

JR: I hate that feeling. It's frustrating to see such lucidity, followed by such fogginess. I think they do get "comfortable" in their "new lives" - or at least enough comfort to believe they can "make a choice for themselves". Well... make it quick, babe, 'cause if you don't, life might (once again) pick for you.

hcii: Needless to say, the REAL reason she changed her mind was due to the fact she started her A at that time, and risking a P was tooooooooo great.

JR: Hmmm... isn't that a kicker... even with perfect pill use, there's a non-zero failure rate... Hello, WW's of the world! If you want to play with fire, be darn well prepared to be BURNED!!!!!

hcii: You will know what to do when the time comes, and you won't have any reservations about it.

JR: Well, I think it'd be based on exhaustion, likely. Sad but true.

Oh, and I thought of another way to reply to her, next time she tries to contact me... Kind of a "preparation" message...

Girl, I realize that I’ve made a rather large mistake recently. I said one thing, namely that “we can’t see or speak to each other so long as someone else is in the picture” and have done something else.

I apologize for the lack of consistency. I think I was so happy to see you more relaxed and “familiar” than I’ve seen in such a long time, that I forgot my own well intended boundaries – there to protect me from added hurt.

And I will admit, that after-the-fact, there is quite a lot of hurt, to know that you’re saying nice things, but not willing to say and do just that bit more to get us over the hump, so to speak. It’s so very hard.

So I need to point out a few things...

1. We need to stick to what I laid out until either you’re ready to make an honest effort on us, I’ve finished losing my love for you, or you decide to end our marriage.

2. I do think we’re further along towards the end of our marriage than you might suspect; I say this just because it’s only fair, I believe, not as a threat or coercion.

3. I do love you, plain and simple. I want you happy. Don’t be afraid for me, or you.

(((((((jr)))))))))

I don't have much advise to give but I want to say you are not alone. We are not alone. Even though it always feel like that...

I wish you the best. Take care.

Thanks H2BP, don't think I've seen your full story yet...

One more thing I'll mention before bed is that if the A is over, she may very well be dealing with withdrawal alone right now... in which case me pulling a harsh attitude may only isolate. Keep in mind we're dealing with a woman here, folks! I think women respond much more warmly to love, even if dished out very carefully in bite-sized portions! We'll see... another week begins afresh.

JR,

I would definitely discuss this letter with SH. I think that you need to send it provide SH isn't opposed to it. It is the very thing you would like her to do: Tell you what she is thinking and what her plans are.

I see no major LB's in the letter, and it does explain what is going to happen. I would begin to make your plans and start going in that direction. You are at the 1 year mark, you are separated, and she is still in the fog with little or no hint of coming out. I am pro marriage, but I do think one needs to look at the facts as well. You cannot do much more than you have done.

I will be very interested to hear what SH has to say, but I liked your letter and hope it is decided to send it.

God Bless,

JL

JR,

Ditto to JL's post. Wish I had his words of wisdom.

Now to answer Spacecase's comment, yes I did tell my H to go file. See it had to be when I was ready not him. The WS' tend to try and control the stupidest parts of our lives.

Well in the case of the D, I could not afford for him or I to be stupid so I kept him at bay until I was emotionally ready, then I told him to go do the dirty deed to match the other dirty deeds already being done. I was NOT going to do it for him. That was my point then and now.

In the case of a woman, well we definitely are creatures of a different habit and even though I am one, I am often at loss and disappointment to know how to handle these critters best.

I personally prefer to tough love road but some women are good at the manipulation game and will try to make you look like the bad guy just for breathing.

So my advice is to shore up your situation, do not do her dirty work for her, agree as much as you can (even if you have to babble back), try to make her wonder about you and your actions as much as possible (more time she spends wondering about you, the less time she wonders about the OM), tell her you love her (if you can, if possible ask questions about OM that will leave her wondering about him, basically keep her off balance (cause they already are) and don't offer to help balance her (because they don't want your help), etc.

Just smile and keep looking good. The OM can't keep up his act for long, but you can because you are the better person.

JMHO,
L.

This is wonderful advice!

Per the beautiful Orchid:

"keep her off balance"

and

"don't offer to help balance her"

and

"just smile and keep looking good"

Spacecase ..... are you reading?????? This is perfect advice for YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You love your W soooo much you can't stand to see her off balance .... but, keeping her balanced keeps her on the fence. She has to fall.

((( ORCHID ))) You 'da BOMB girl!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Cool! Okay, I think I've got a plan now for some next steps, thanks to talking with Steve...

Basically, he suggests sitting down with her and doing some goal setting. He offered up a few questions to me that might "break the ice", lead into some telling answers from her, yet be non-threatening, or can't be "misinterpreted" as disrespectful or demanding.

Based on the outcome... I get enough info in order to either "reset" my boundaries, or move to a next (baby) step - which might very well be getting her to talk with Steve... If she's unready, unwilling, or anything like that - I go back into a very strict Plan B, having (once again) reiterated why I'm there - not to punish, but protect.

Some of the questions are pretty basic, but could give me the info I need to move the discussion forward... such as:

"What do you see as 'the ideal'?"
"Would you like to be in love?"
"I assume you're still seeing OM...?"

Basically, I'd be doing what Steve does often when first talking with WS's - breaking through that first layer of muck... Doing some GOAL SETTING. If she resists, she'll at least know some of the things she needs to answer for me.

I think this is a good idea. She can share a little, I can share a little... But it can't be threatening in any way... so the gist of my letter here is OUT for now. But I can accept that for now, based on this looking like a decent plan.

If she's going through withdrawal or still seeing OM, I think I get some good info from the exercise.

I'll keep you posted...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>This is wonderful advice!

Per the beautiful Orchid:

"keep her off balance"

and

"don't offer to help balance her"

and

"just smile and keep looking good"

Spacecase ..... are you reading?????? This is perfect advice for YOU! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You love your W soooo much you can't stand to see her off balance .... but, keeping her balanced keeps her on the fence. She has to fall.

((( ORCHID ))) You 'da BOMB girl!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I AM reading! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That hurts Pep, really hurts! I know you are right, absolutely right. And I think I'm doing just that! Nonetheless, if there is ANYTHING I can do to not hurt her, I will. It's hard enough being the harda$$ I'm being now...don't twist the knife! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Half the time I feel like running home, hugging her, and telling her I'll never let anything happen to her...it burns me not to be able to do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

"Keep her off balance"...

Hmmm, this plan might actually do that... Given how little R talk we've engaged in for, oh, the last 6 months - this might actually be a 180 for us!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Strong, confident, "I know what I want", "I know I can walk away and survive", etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Strong, confident, "I know what I want", "I know I can walk away and survive", etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going to post to you J.R. after doing some thinking myself. It looks as though you beat me to what I was going to say.

My sitch is somewhat similar to yours in regards to the stage of emotions that we are in. Of course you have been at this longer than me, as D-day for me was the first of May. My WW pushed at a fast pace, though.

After her little charades last week, coming here 3 days straight after a 2-month hiatus, and now not hearing a peep out of her since, I have begun to realize something about myself. I am very, very, close to being 100% indifferent. I can take it either way it goes. If you want my honest opinion, I am probably 75/25 in favor of letting go.

This has made me realize that now I have MY strength back. I am no longer at the mercy of my emotions. I am in charge of my destiny, and can, and will, make the best of it for me, no matter how it turns out. That, I think, is the "danger" that WS's do not see, when they are accustomed to seeing the BS's effort to try and repair the M.

Just as I NEVER thought the WW would EVER do anything like this, I think my WW would NEVER think that I may not just be around. Oh, she has said she realizes that from time to time, but I don't think she really feels that way. If she truly didn't have some feelings to repair the M, that thought would be irrelevant to her. By holding me "captive" in a sense, and not "turning me loose" completely, I sense that she is unsure about what she wants.

All I can say is that she better wake up and realize that I have the option of ending it, also. I think sometimes the "cake-eaters" are blind to that fact.

Enough of me. My point being....As you just posted....YOU have the strength and resolve, now, to make YOUR life what you want it to be. We are no longer at the mercy of our emotions as we usually are in the early stages.

I know one thing for certain in my sitch, now. If our M doesn't pan out, I now know who the biggest "loser" is in all of this. I can't and wouldn't dare speak for any one else, but I know within all of my soul that I have done everything I could. And then some......

HCII

Hcii & 2Long,

Acceptance that is the stage you need to keep as your goal. It is there within your grasp, just have to be at an emotionally ready level to see it and grab hold of it. It is there, trust me. You will reach it and find it.

Right now believe it or not, the one holding you back is yourself. You are hoping that the WS will wake up and take you in her arms, say all is over and it will be ok. She is not ready to do that and that is hurting you. You are holding yourselves back thinking you can not move forward without her reassurance. But you can and you will. Just when is the question.

JR is getting there. It is a long hard road and sometimes we insist on taking the roughest road but you will make it. Ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Had any nice people dreams lately?

L.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

hcii, orchid, and OH YEAH, J.R.!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

primarily, hcii: This is something I posted on SC's thread yesterday (or whenever that was! this early morning shift is WEIRD):

2long: "I am having a hard time not being apathetic right now. I've done well at not LBing, not talking about R issues AT ALL since I came back home, but the result is that I'm getting more and more to where I feel like I don't care all that much."

SC: "2L; I strongly suspect this feeling is self-protection more than real apathy. Look in your heart...you DO love her...I know it. "

So, it's good that your'e 100% "indifferent" but recognize that your 75/25 percent readiness to let go will go up and down, depending on how you and your W interact over the next several months/couple years. Indifference is good in the sense that we recognize that we're "whole people" by ourselves and thus better able to either be alone or share our independence in a rewarding relationship withour spouses. Indifference that's based on spite would not be constructive. Hcii, I'm not putting words into your mouth - this is a realization I've had about MYSELF and what I'VE been doing lately. SC is right, though. I do love my W AND I'm tired of the pain, so I'm "protecting" myself with my "don't care" remarks.

planetary regards,