WS and I have been married for 2 years. We dated for 4 years prior to marrying. In October 2001, our son was born. At about the same time as our son’s birth, a “friend” of ours told WS about a website that allows people to locate former classmates and coworkers in the country in which WS grew up. WS signed up for this service. At the end of 2001, he connected with a woman he had known as a teenager. She lives in the country in which WS grew up and we live in TX. Sometime in First Quarter 2002, the two began e-mailing, instant messaging and telephoning each other on what I believe to be a daily basis. Until that point, all I knew was that WS was drinking to excess every night of the week – either at his favorite pub or at home.

The way this relationship came to my attention is that one weekend, WS received several telephone calls on his cell phone while we were at home. After the first call, he said to me, “You’re a lawyer, tell me if this makes sense to you. My friend’s live-in boyfriend beat her up, but the police won’t do anything about it because they say it is a domestic issue.” I told him that I thought that was quite odd, but I am not familiar with the laws in the country in which she lives, so that could be true. Over the next day or two, he received several calls from his friend as well as from her live-in boyfriend, who told WS that knew about their relationship and was devastated by it. I listened to WS assure this gentleman that he and this woman were “just friends” and had been for over 25 years. He told the boyfriend that he was happily married with a 5-month old son and living in America. After that, WS changed his cell phone number and, supposedly, changed his hotmail accounts so that these two people would leave him alone.

The first weekend in May, WS played in a golf tournament after which he and his mates went to their favorite pub to drink. WS was extremely drunk when he got home, so it surprised me when he said he was hungry and wanted steak for dinner. He said he was going to go out to the store to buy some and I told him, “No, you’ve had way too much to drink to be driving, I’ll go.” When I returned from the market, my husband and son were upstairs and when I went up, I found them in our bed. My husband was on his cell phone and did not know I was home. Consequently, he said things that he would not have said if he knew I was standing there. Specifically, he was saying how he could hardly wait to touch and kiss the person’s to whom he was talking face and make love to her. I demanded to know to whom he was talking and he told the person he had to go and hung up his phone. I grabbed the phone from him and hit “send,” which caused the phone to automatically call the last number dialed. I said a number of colorful things to this woman. She did not respond and, instead, hung up on me. I then told my husband to leave the house and not come back. He went to a hotel until the next morning when he came home all apologetic saying that he was acting like a high school kid with his first crush and he was so sorry – he didn’t mean anything he had said, that he was drunk at the time and said a lot of things he didn’t mean. He told me that he loved me and wanted to make our marriage work. I told him that, if he wanted to come home and make our marriage work, he could have no further contact with her, no more secrets, no more hiding things, no more drinking to excess and marriage counseling. He agreed. I also told him that he would have to tell me the passwords for all of his electronic mail accounts, his PDA and his cell phone. He did so, but I later discovered that he had deleted all information. After I knowing that I accessed his accounts for a few days, he became defensive asking me when I was going to trust him again! He then changed all his passwords, again, and they started using other means to facilitate contact with each other, including new, secret e-mail accounts, text messaging on their cells, calling cards, etc.

Originally, it was an EA because of the distance between them. It became a PA in June when she came here while I was out of the country on business.

Since the original D-day, we have had 7 other D-days including 3 of which he had airline tickets to the go to her country to be with her, but which he did nto use) and 7 other False Recoveries. Providing all of the details, including those of several conversations w/ OW would take WAY to much room, so I'll fill those in as time goes on, if need be. Suffice it to say that he has lied to me, she has lied to me, and they have lied to each other quite a bit, including him tellin gher several lies that painted me out to be a terrible mother, which EVERYONE who knows us will say NOT!
She knows that he has lied extensively to her, but he refuses to see that she has lied to him, too. Each False Recovery included all of the same promises from the first re: NC, etc.

We started MC w/ one counselor, but after 2 sessions, WH refused to go back because she focused in on him and his drinking. WH called her B**** and that was the end of that.

This last time, I thought we were finally in True Recovery. For 3 weeks, WH has insisted that he was in a NC mode w/ OW and he seemed to really be making efforts at working on the M. We found new counselors - a husband/wife team, whom we both like. In addition to being a PhD psychologist, he is a deacon at our church. They recommended that we first spend time counseling w/ them (WH w/ him and me with her) on individual issues before dealing with M issues - we are to avoid all R talk of any type and act as though we "just met" and treat each other with that type of respect and consideration and attention - easier said than done.

I am now feeling sad again, and don't feel we are truly in recovery. WH has been drinking quite a bit, but has found a new watering hole. The NC has not been complete, either. Their first week of supposed NC, at his request, she e-mailed him to say that carpal tunnel surgery she had had that day went fine (he was worried out her, awwwwww!). Then, two weekends ago, we went to FL for a long weekend. Had a great time until the trip home. When we were in the airport, WH claimed to be going to the men's room. They were almost done boarding the plane and he still hadn't returned, so I went looking for him. Found him on the phone. When I asked who he was calling from FL, since we live in TX, he said that he was checking his voice mail at work. When I said, "with a calling card?" He admitted that he called her, "but only to see how she was doing because she got her stitches out" that day.

Then, on Friday of last week, I went to his new watering hole to surprise him (thinking that we were in recovery and he would be happy to see me), only to find him on his cell, talking to her (I could see her name on the display). I started shaking and crying and tried to leave, but he kept asking me to stay and kept saying that he didn't understand why I was so upset, they were "just having a chat" and he thought that, "after all this time", it would be okay. HUH????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Now, the most recent straw is that. on Saturday, WH and I went out to lunch, where we each had a few drinks. When we got home, WH said he was going to go out for a bit to pick up some things from the store. He was gone for 3 hours and, when he came back, he admitted that he had been out drinking, more. Today, our son's sitter, who knows what is going on, told me that she was along side of and, then, in front of WH on the road on Saturday afternoon (at the time he would have been on his way home) and said he was on his cell phone. Well, he was not talking to me and none of his "friends" are talking to him because of the way he is treating me. I asked him to whom he was talking and he insists that he was not on the cell and was not talking to anyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I e-mailed OW and she supports his story, but then again, she would, HUH???

An amusing side note - It is very clear that I am depressed. I cry alot, have lost a significant amount of weight (that I did not need to lose, I am now considered underweight for my bone type and height), etc. Last week, WH asked me to ask my IC if I am suffering from postpartum depression!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I tried very hard not to laugh at him and just said that I doubted that's what it is because DS is now 10 months old, but that I would ask IC. Her response was that I should tell him that there are, certainly, situations in my life that are causing me to be depressed.....

Alas, there is the "short" version of my story. Any suggestions on how to deal with my WH who is a regular at the Fog and Fence would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to Plan A and avoid LB's, but my efforts are going right past him. (In fact, OW told me that some of my Plan A efforts were a great source of contempt to WH - enough that he was laughing at me......) For now, I am following IC's advice (above) as best I can.....

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-10 months
Recovery???????

BB! Big, Big hug!!!
I have a lot to say as there are many similarities in our tales, but for now, I just wanted to let you know that we're here for you, and we're glad you finally decided to tell us your story, as we can now be of help.

Hang in there! Be strong!

Hello Brit's Brat,

I am really sorry you are going through this. HAve you read Dr. Dobson's book "Tough Love"? I think it is time to use some tough love. I gather from your message that your husband loves you but right now he loves himself more. He is walking all over you and you are so emotionally tied to the situation you are not able to see it.

Stand up for you! He is manipulating you by begging you back every time you catch him. This is no different than a drug addict. It is time to draw some bounderies and stick to them.

I got sucked into my husband's fog too - this is not helpful for either of you. I am really sorry you are going through this....based on what you wrote, I really believe you need to set some bounderies for your own sanity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Brit's Brat:
<strong>... I demanded to know to whom he was talking and he told the person he had to go and hung up his phone. I grabbed the phone from him and hit &#8220;send,&#8221; which caused the phone to automatically call the last number dialed. I said a number of colorful things to this woman. She did not respond and, instead, hung up on me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I gather from this and other comments that you know who the OW is, and you've spoken with her several times? How did this come about? Do you know her? Were you friends?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...He told me that he loved me and wanted to make our marriage work. I told him that, if he wanted to come home and make our marriage work, </strong>he could have no further contact with her, no more secrets, no more hiding things, no more drinking to excess and marriage counseling. He agreed. I also told him that he would have to tell me the passwords for all of his electronic mail accounts, his PDA and his cell phone.<strong> He did so, but I later discovered that he had deleted all information. After I knowing that I accessed his accounts for a few days, he became defensive asking me when I was going to trust him again! He then changed all his passwords, again, and they started using other means to facilitate contact with each other, including new, secret e-mail accounts, text messaging on their cells, calling cards, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of curiosity; how did you know to ask for these things from him? Had you read SAA, been to this site before all this? Why? What made you start looking at these "matters"?

Perhaps that is why you feel so comfortable asking him to do these things, but he's clueless. Has he read this, learned? It seems to me that unless a WS end the A immediately on DDay, and is immediately remorseful in a big way, it is very difficult to expect them to embrace and adopt all of these measure immediately. Or, as the case appears with you, they say they will, but don't.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Since the original D-day, we have had 7 other D-days including 3 of which he had airline tickets to the go to her country to be with her, but which he did not use, and 7 other False Recoveries. Providing all of the details, including those of several conversations w/ OW would take WAY to much room, so I'll fill those in as time goes on, if need be. Suffice it to say that he has lied to me, she has lied to me, and they have lied to each other quite a bit, including him telling her several lies that painted me out to be a terrible mother, which EVERYONE who knows us will say NOT! She knows that he has lied extensively to her, but he refuses to see that she has lied to him, too. Each False Recovery included all of the same promises from the first re: NC, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Clearly, this is not working. BB; I lived EXACTLY the same thing. DDay over and over again, until I lost count how many DDays there were. Things reached a point where it was pointless to continue to confront, extract new denials and promises, only to have them occur over and over again.

I think you will have to do the same. I'm not sure I'd recommend doing what I did; stay at home with her for several more months, and not say anything about her "extra-curricular activities" , Plan Aing as best I could under the circumstances, with the hope that something would happen, but with the knowledge that I was showing her that I could be abetter husband, that I could meet her ENs if she told me about them, that I could reduce the LBing, and all the while, growing stronger and more prepared for what could come next.

That they lie to each other is a given, and it's also a given that whatever you say about it will fall on deaf ears. Do your circle of friends know about this? What is their reaction/position? Can/will some of them have some influence on your H? Would they back you if you separated? Do you have family to turn to locally or close-by?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
We started MC w/ one counselor, but after 2 sessions, WH refused to go back because she focused in on him and his drinking. WH called her B**** and that was the end of that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Story of my life. 3 Cs discarded before Steve. That is almost a clear sign that they are reluctant to face their issues, in his case the alcohol first, but probably also the A. In my case, as soon as the C touched the subject of the A, why, how, etc. my W would bolt! His acceptance of counseling will come, but it will take some work.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This last time, I thought we were finally in True Recovery. For 3 weeks, WH has insisted that he was in a NC mode w/ OW and he seemed to really be making efforts at working on the M. We found new counselors - a husband/wife team, whom we both like. In addition to being a PhD psychologist, he is a deacon at our church. They recommended that we first spend time counseling w/ them (WH w/ him and me with her) on individual issues before dealing with M issues - we are to avoid all R talk of any type and act as though we "just met" and treat each other with that type of respect and consideration and attention - easier said than done. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good strategy avoiding R talk. I think he needs a little time to catch up, as happened with me and my W. The first thing Steve told me when we started Cing in April, was that I had to find patience from somewhere, because it was going to take time to bring her "up to speed" to where I was, in terms of comprehension.

On the other hand, if you spend too much time dealing with individual issues, and don't start addressing the A, it may become too painful for you. Balance is essential. This is one of those areas where the "Infidelity" experts criticize traditional "well-meaning" counselors, because if you spend months, years dealing with childhood issues, etc. etc. by the time you get to dealing with the A, it's too late.

Clearly, your H needs to deal with the alcohol issue. This is a complication I am not familiar with, but I can see that it is a problem, and will probably have to be brought under control before hs can truly make progress elsewhere. Others are more experienced with alcoholism, and will probably have better insight on that.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...Now, the most recent straw is that. on Saturday, WH and I went out to lunch, where we each had a few drinks. When we got home, WH said he was going to go out for a bit to pick up some things from the store. He was gone for 3 hours and, when he came back, he admitted that he had been out drinking, more. Today, our son's sitter, who knows what is going on, told me that she was along side of and, then, in front of WH on the road on Saturday afternoon (at the time he would have been on his way home) and said he was on his cell phone. Well, he was not talking to me and none of his "friends" are talking to him because of the way he is treating me. I asked him to whom he was talking and he insists that he was not on the cell and was not talking to anyone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The various examples you give clearly indicate that the A is alive and active. Furthermore, your H has shown no intention of ending it. Notice that I said "shown" and not "said". He knows what to say to placate you, and he does. And you want to believe him, so you do. But it's not true. I know, a very, very difficult position to be in, the exact same thing happened to me over and over again.

I do believe you will have to establish some more serious boundaries. And he will have to "demonstrate" not "say". It does you almost no good to Plan A, if every so often you again discover evidence, proceed to confront angrily, and to demand compliance with "rules" that he does not understand or agree with, or see that are needed. Or calling/emailing OW (BIG LB, in his eyes). Any positive effects of your Plan A are thrown out the window each time this happens.

You probably only have two options; either do what I did, which is to "ignore" the on-going contact for "some time" in order to build more "trust", allow the A to die its natuaral death, or for something external to end it. And at the same time Plan A as best you can, so that when it does end you are in a good position for recovery. Clearly a risky proposition for you (as it was for me) because when we have these "stubborn" WSs and As, the "natural" end could be years away! In my case, it reached a point beyond which I was not able to control LBs, so we decided to have a "final" confrontation, and have Steve intervene, and basically put everything on the table. Either you end it, or this is going to end our M. BUT; you have to be prepared to do that. leave, Plan B, separate, whatever method you choose. The WS may just react and decide the game is up, or they may not. In that case, the plan of action must continue.

The other option, of course, is to go to Plan B or separation right now. That should only happen IF you really are at the end of the rope, and you can no longer "hold it in" and the LBs are increasing. The reason is that if you are going to go this route, you should have as good a Plan A under your belt as possible.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I e-mailed OW and she supports his story, but then again, she would, HUH??? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Contact with OW probably only hurts you. I can't see that it can possibly help you. She is certainly NOT your ally, nor will she betray him if she intends to keep him. She'll NEVER tell you the truth, and it just hurts you emotionally to write her and hear whatever babble she chooses to give you. You give her importance, and you show your H that you are competing for him, thus making him feel good about the A...this is just not good. No matter which way you look at it, it is not good.

A good rule for ANY action we take or are contemplating taking is; can it have a positive effect on me, my M, or my situation? How? If you cannot answer that clearly and convincingly, you should probably not do it. And this includes snooping, confronting, whatever you do that interacts with your H related to the A.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
An amusing side note - It is very clear that I am depressed. I cry alot, have lost a significant amount of weight (that I did not need to lose, I am now considered underweight for my bone type and height), etc. Last week, WH asked me to ask my IC if I am suffering from postpartum depression!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I tried very hard not to laugh at him and just said that I doubted that's what it is because DS is now 10 months old, but that I would ask IC. Her response was that I should tell him that there are, certainly, situations in my life that are causing me to be depressed.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see why you say it's "amusing", because of his "possible explanation", but this really is not amusing at all. Are you on Anti-Ds? Please consider them. Talk to your doctor about them. They DO help!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alas, there is the "short" version of my story. Any suggestions on how to deal with my WH who is a regular at the Fog and Fence would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to Plan A and avoid LB's, but my efforts are going right past him. (In fact, OW told me that some of my Plan A efforts were a great source of contempt to WH - enough that he was laughing at me......) For now, I am following IC's advice (above) as best I can.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BB; I hope you don't feel I'm being too harsh, although I know I am, but you are going to have to take drastic measures. I take it the first DDay was March-April, so you've been at this for about 5 months, with mixed results. Clearly what you have been doing is not working, so you should change your approach.

I think we've begun to "explore" what some of those may be, but of course, we need more feedback from you so we can help guide you. If you're willinga and able to do a Plan B, or separate, etc. we don;t know your situation there. Whether you may be able to refrain from "interfering" with the behavior of your H for "some time" and perhaps how long, etc.

My "harsh" assessment is only meant to be a "reality check" and in no way criticism of your actions. We ALL have done and continue to do dumb things, emotions do that to us. Be brave, be strong, start working on an alternate plan, give us some more information, and we'll continue to give you feedback. Big Hug!!!

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hi BB, Sorry it is so tough... Interested in lunch on thursday? I know you are downtown, I am grnway plaza... anywhere convenient if you have time?

Take care, HONEY

Hi Spacecase! Thanks for reading about my situation and providing me with your input. I will try to answer your questions and give you more details....here goes.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I gather from this and other comments that you know who the OW is, and you've spoken with her several times? How did this come about? Do you know her? Were you friends?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do know who OW is because I paid attention when I hit "send" on WH's cell on D-Day - he had her programmed into the address book, so her name came up on the screen. Little by little, I then filled in the details about her. I have spoken to her several times. The first time, I basically just screamed at her because it was during the first few minutes after I found out about he A and was basically having an out of body experience! I don't usually use profanity, but it was the only thing that fit - I called her a F****** C*** and asked her if she was that desperate for a man that she had to chase a married man who lives 4000 miles away and an ocean apart from her. She hung up on me but, then, I would have, too, if I were in her shoes! Later, I went into WH's cell and wrote down here number for future reference.

The second time I spoke to her, came after I found an online text messaging/e-mail provider in OW&#8217;s country that WH was using to text message OW. When I got to the site, I put in one of WS&#8217;s favorite user id&#8217;s and the password that he told me was the password for all his accounts. The site said something to the effect of. &#8220;Welcome WS, please enter the correct password.&#8221; I tried several passwords with no luck. I don&#8217;t know what inspired me, but I then tried &#8220;IloveOW,&#8221; and was able to enter the site. In the text messaging part of the site, I found a list of text messages to that mirrored the little messages he sent me when we first started dating, all the way down to the same number of exclamation points! When I called WS on his cell phone, he had it turned off, so I called OW and told her that if she talked to my husband before I did, she should tell him that their little account on the text messaging site would make great evidence in a divorce proceeding. She then told me that she wasn&#8217;t &#8220;my problem,&#8221; and that she and WS are &#8220;just friends.&#8221; When I asked her about the text messages that said, &#8220;I LOVE YOU OW!!!&#8221;. Her response was that people tell their friends they love them all the time. !!&#8221; I then reminded her of the conversation I over heard in which WS told her he could hardly wait to touch and kiss her face and make love to her. I also pointed out to her that all of the messages were similar to ones he would send me via e-mail when we first started dating. Again she said that she and WS are &#8220;just friends.&#8221; During the course of the conversation, I thanked her for ruining my son&#8217;s life because now he would not have a father in the home. Her response was that her daughters do not have a father in the home and are just fine. Later in the conversation, though, she said that one of her daughters had to be removed from their home in shackles because the daughter was beating her up. When I asked her doesn&#8217;t she think her daughters would prefer to have their father living with them, she said, &#8220;BS, you have to understand &#8211; when my daughter was a baby &#8211; only 9 months old if you can believe that &#8211; my husband started having an affair with another woman and I stayed with him for X years [I don&#8217;t remember the exact number] so that my daughters would have a father in the home.&#8221; I asked her why it was so inappropriate for her husband to run around on her when her daughter was only 9 months old when she and WS were doing that to me when our son is only 6 months old. She had no response, but then stated that she and WS weren&#8217;t &#8220;doing anything.&#8221; When I asked her whether she thought it was strange that WS had to change hotmail addresses several weeks back, she replied, &#8220;No, not at all.&#8221; She then proceeded to say that he had told her that I told him he could no longer have any contact with her if he wanted to stay in our marriage. I asked her why she didn&#8217;t tell WS that, as his friend (as she claimed to be), his marriage was more important and he needed to work on that and not have anymore contact with her. She responded that she could not do that. When I asked why, she frantically said, &#8220;I love him!&#8221; I followed up by saying, &#8220;I thought you were just friends?&#8221; She again frantically and emphatically said, &#8220;I love him!&#8221; When the conversation was over, I went to WS&#8217;s drinking hole &#8211; and found him at the bar. He was talking to a few of his drinking buddies, so I asked him if I could talk to him in private. We stepped away and I showed him a print out of the text messages. His response was that when he told OW he loved her, it was as a friend (obviously, they had talked!). I then told him that if he wanted to save our marriage, he needed to come home right now and have no further contact with OW. He told me that he was not willing to do that. When I asked him, &#8220;Why, because you love her?&#8221; he said, &#8220;Yes.&#8221; At that point, I told him not to come home. He said that he would have to come home to get his things. I told him that I would put them on the front porch and he could pick them up from there - he was no longer welcome in the house. At that point, I left and picked up our son from the sitter. Later that evening, he called and wanted to know whether his clothes were on the front porch, I told him that I had not had time to do so because I was taking care of our son. He then tried to tell me, again, that I was blowing everything all out of proportion. I told him to ask some of his friends there at the bar whether they thought I was and he told me that he had talked to a couple that was in our wedding party and they thought so. I called the female part of that couple for a reality check only to find out from her that everyone we know who drinks at WS&#8217;s watering hole knows about WS&#8217;s girlfriend and she was glad I finally found out. She also denied having said that I was blowing things out of proportion!

The next morning, WS walked in the door as I was on my way out to take our son to the sitter. I could not even look at WS I was so hurt and angry. He asked me if what he did was so bad that I couldn&#8217;t even look him in the eye and I told him yes. He said that he and I were going to sit down and have a long talk because we have a lot of problems in our marriage and OW isn&#8217;t one of them. I told him the only way I was going to discuss anything was if he was going to commit to having no further contact with OW. He said he would. After I took our son to the sitter, we talked at length and I heard the exact same promises he made three weeks earlier &#8211; no contact with OW, open access to all computer/cell phone accounts, no more drinking and marriage counseling. When we were done talking, WS agreed to tell OW that they could have no further contact and he would remove all passwords from all of his accounts. I told him that my trust was completely gone and that I wanted to be in the room when he called her. At first he objected, but then agreed when I told him that was the condition if he wanted to make our marriage work. When I asked him when he wanted to call her, he said in the next few days.

The following night was our bowling banquet. WS had several beers at both the banquet and after we returned home. If he wasn&#8217;t drunk, he was well on his way. We got into another heated discussion about OW in which he again told me I was blowing things out of proportion, was obsessed with the situation and he was not going to live like this the rest of his life. I told him that it had only been one day. He stated that the situation was not infidelity because they had not had sex. When I left the house to go pick up our son from the sitter, through the window, I saw WS walking over to where his cell phone was charging. When I got home he was quite nice to me and we all went to bed &#8211; or so I thought. The next morning at 7:59 a.m., the phone rang. When I answered, the caller said, &#8220;BS, this is OW, I am calling to talk to you. Please tell WS to check his e-mail account.&#8221; I told her to tell him herself and went to hand WS the phone. Both OW and WS said, &#8220;No, I don&#8217;t want to talk to her/him.&#8221; When I hung up the phone, WS asked what OW said and I told him. He then went into our study and I could hear him typing on the computer and, then, sniffling. When he came in the room he was crying and I asked him what she said. He very nastily told me to go read it for myself and that he didn&#8217;t want to talk to me right then. The message OW sent basically said that she was ending their relationship and did not want any further contact with WS. I could tell that the message had NOT been opened prior to my opening it, which made me very suspicious. I also found it suspicious that much of what she said was exactly what I had told WS the night before. I did not say this to WS, though. Later the same day, WS went to have the car washed. While he was gone, I checked both the incoming and out going calls from his cell phone memory. At 12:25 a.m. the night before, he used a calling card. Later, he asked whether I found anything in his cell phone. When I asked him about the calling card call, he admitted that he called OW. When I asked him why and what part of no further contact he didn&#8217;t understand, he said that he called her to tell her they could no longer have contact. I asked him why he did not honor my requirement that I be present. He never gave me an answer, but told me that he told her he would have to repeat what he said to her in front of me. I asked him why, if what he was saying is true, did she send the e-mail message that she sent? His response was that she must have done that so that she would not have to hear it all over again. His explanation did not make a whole lot of sense. Since then, WS has confirmed that OW and he trumped up the message to make me think they had cut off contact when they had merely regrouped.

Each time there was a new D-Day I talked to her because, inevitably, the D-Days happened because I would catch him talking to her on the phone. On our last D-day, WH was not home. I was using the time to draft my Plan B letter and decided that I definitely wanted to know whether they were still in contact, so I called OW. We talked for 5 hours - basically her asking me questions and me pointing out to her all of WH's lies to her. I also made clear that all of the little romantic gestures and sayings that WH was using on her were the exact same things he did for me when we first started dating and even does now. (WH told me that she later had it out with him because she was hurt that those were not done special for her). I also cleared up her thinking that WH and I were not having SF. This also bothered her greatly because, when she was leaving here in June, he told her he would never have SF with anyone else ever again, except her. Long and short, the conversation ended with us both agreeing that WH was on the verge of a breakdown (previously, he had been hospitalized for a NB in 1997) needed psychological help and the best thing for him to do was to cut of with her and stay in our M until he worked it all out in counseling. That was when the most recent, supposed, NC began. I have had, and do not intend to have any further conversations with her because it is not healthy for ME.

I have never met OW and she is definitely not a friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out of curiosity; how did you know to ask for these things from him? Had you read SAA, been to this site before all this? Why? What made you start looking at these "matters"?

Perhaps that is why you feel so comfortable asking him to do these things, but he's clueless. Has he read this, learned? It seems to me that unless a WS end the A immediately on DDay, and is immediately remorseful in a big way, it is very difficult to expect them to embrace and adopt all of these measure immediately. Or, as the case appears with you, they say they will, but don't.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had not read SAA at the point where I asked for these things - they just felt like the logical things to ask, given where we had been and the issues in our M. I have since bought a copy of SAA and shared the concepts with him - Unfortunately, he has not really learned that it is not a one way street with me correcting all the LB's and him just continuing along using "withdrawal" as his excuse for his actions. As instructed by our C's we have been trying to avoid any R talk, so we have not moved much further in that regard....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Clearly, this is not working. BB; I lived EXACTLY the same thing. DDay over and over again, until I lost count how many DDays there were. Things reached a point where it was pointless to continue to confront, extract new denials and promises, only to have them occur over and over again.

I think you will have to do the same. I'm not sure I'd recommend doing what I did; stay at home with her for several more months, and not say anything about her "extra-curricular activities" , Plan Aing as best I could under the circumstances, with the hope that something would happen, but with the knowledge that I was showing her that I could be abetter husband, that I could meet her ENs if she told me about them, that I could reduce the LBing, and all the while, growing stronger and more prepared for what could come next.

That they lie to each other is a given, and it's also a given that whatever you say about it will fall on deaf ears. Do your circle of friends know about this? What is their reaction/position? Can/will some of them have some influence on your H? Would they back you if you separated? Do you have family to turn to locally or close-by?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have moved well beyond anger and am pretty much just sad. I realize that something needs to be done, which is why we are in C-ing. I will give it another month or two with these C's and then see where we are at - maybe, a session or two with Steve....then, Plan B? Unfortunately, I went to our so-called friends for the support and intervention because he truly places a high value on what his friends say to him. They did very little. One couple with whom we are friends are actually are like second parents to him. The guy assured me that he took WH aside and had a long talk with him - WH now says it never happened. Now, all of our so-called friends are so disgusted with him and think they are expressing loyalty toward me by cutting off all contact with him - very few will even talk to him anymore. His own Dad didn't speak to him for 4 months - they just made up this past weekend because FIL thinks the A is over. My family is very supportive but, unfortunately, they are all up North. I know I can make it on my own - both financially (my salary is double his) and emotionally (even though I am depressed, I am a very strong person, Besides, my son needs me to be healthy and together) - I would probably fare much better than he would.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Clearly, your H needs to deal with the alcohol issue. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely - You should only know! This is the biggest problem in our M and all other problems, including 99% of my LB arises out of it. Fortunately, he likes his current C because both C and WH are adult chilren of alcoholics - hopefully, he will help WH deal with the drinking.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A good rule for ANY action we take or are contemplating taking is; can it have a positive effect on me, my M, or my situation? How? If you cannot answer that clearly and convincingly, you should probably not do it. And this includes snooping, confronting, whatever you do that interacts with your H related to the A.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Couldn't agree more. I have begun trying to apply this...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I see why you say it's "amusing", because of his "possible explanation", but this really is not amusing at all. Are you on Anti-Ds? Please consider them. Talk to your doctor about them. They DO help!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not on anti-D's. Was many years ago and do not feel that I am at the point where I need them just yet - I will ask my C this week. She is an RN in addition to being a licensed C, so she will be a good evaluator of the need for them....

Finally, I did not take any of your response as "harsh" or "critical". I took it as helpful and very insightful - I appreciate ANY feedback, especially feedback as helpful as yours!

BB on the Northside......

Honey - I would LOVE to have lunch, but don't know if I can do it on Thursday - I am supposed to go to LA tomorrow and Thursday if the case doesn't settle. I'll know later today and give you a call.....If I can, do you want to see if any other MB's are available??

Brit's Brat

Wow, Brit's Brat, what a story,

As landlord of the Fog & Fence, I don't hear often of a fog of such huge proportions! Either your hubby is sooo deep in the fog that he cant see his own belly button, or, he is just so incredibly stupid. How else would he continuously engage in this nursery game of hide and seek?

Your strategy doesn't seem to work - neither for you, nor for him, nor for your relationship in general, as you may have noticed. Trying to convince OW is definately a non starter - which interests do you think does she have at heart? Yours or hers? Guess. Confronting time and time again H with evidence & giving him yet another chance seems to wear you out. careful! you dont help yourself doing that.

Question: Did you try what people here call 'plan A'? I know, it must be very difficult for you to keep a smiley face at this point in time and trying to be a good sport, but anyway. It's also important because plan A is first and foremost about YOU.
Once you can't do that anymore - get into serious plan B planning mode. and then it's plan B. But that only works if plan A was done properly beforehand. so the theory goes. others on the board here might chip in with their plan B experience - I'm not there yet (still playing the nursery hide & seek game myself... still giving WW another chance.... still hunting down email accounts and calling cards...... isnt it just soooo pathetic?)

PS - what does DS stand for?

Have you been to an Al-Anon program yet and gotten hooked up with a Sponsor who can help you deal with his "other" OW? The alcohol was his OW long before this old high school buddy. And it will keep him living a double life.

BB, I can't tell you what you should do. But clearly, you can only count on being lied to by him so stop checking his e-mail and his vioce mail. Assume that he is cheating. Tell him the conditions of reconcilliation have changed. You cannot do a true Plan A with an alcoholic - you will only destroy yourself trying. Harley recommends going directly to Plan B until husband has become sober. To me, this means he must have reached a point of recovery with his addiction that he demonstrates true remorse for his deceit, doesn't ask for forgiveness, and just allows his program of kindness, recovery and attention win you back. He must PLAN A YOU!

Until then, he's playing a game and stringing you along and he will do this for as long as you live under the same roof.

good point. my granddad treated alcoholics - he mentioned at some point that alcoholism is mind altering.

question is what is the chicken, what is the egg. is he alcoholic because of the sh*t he got himself into? or the other way around?

fact is surely that he is caught in a downwards spiral.

Chicken or Egg contemplations are great follow-up but as in cancer - you have to treat the sure-kill part of the disease first. Remove the biggest tumors then change the lifestyle that feeds them.

You have to deal with the alcoholic's drinking because it causes the deeper fog - the kind that prevents him from seeing the issues underneath.

HEY BB, MAYBE WE SHOULD DO ANOTHER LUNCH FOR ALL MBS IN SEPT. ARE YOU GOING TO BE IN IN SEPT. wILL PSOT A THREAD ON THAT? HONEY

BB; read the whole thing! WOW!!!
One clarification please; is WH living with you at home now? Seems like he is, just checking to make sure.

Honey - I like the September MB lunch idea - do you want to post the thread or should I? Still don't know about lunch on Thursday - waiting to here from my guys out in LA.

Spaceguy - WH is at home - each time he leaves its only for a night and then he comes back.

Nick123 - DS stands for Dear Son and boy is he a cutie!!!!!

I have attended Al-Anon meetings both in person and on-line and they have been helpful. I am fortunate (if you can call it that) that WH's drinking is not a MUST have EVERY day thing. He definitely has a drinking problem, though....C is supposedly working on that with WH.....

Have to run to a meeting - will post more answers later....

Brit's Brat

BB;
Here are my SUGGESTIONS.
(Disclaimer; I am not the most experienced MBer, nor am I even close to a counselor, I have made every mistake in the book, many of them several times, and this is just my opinion, based on what I have LIVED myself in my case, and some common MB sense.)

First I'm going to say what I think you need to stop doing, and then some ideas of the kinds of things you probably need to start doing. Please do not take this as an "operations manual" or "step-by-step" guide. Others will chime in, you will have your own ideas, and this is just one MBer's opinion.

Donts
1. Never, ever talk to or email OW again. For any reason at all. BIG NO-NO!!! You've probably learned a few tid-bits from her, but all they are good for is to antagonize your H by exposing his weaknesses and winning an argument or two. Not useful for marriage recovery. They may make you right, but they don't make you stay married.

2. I think you have been very, very perceptive and intelligent in your deductive reasoning all along (You're probably an attorney, right?), and I say this with the utmost respect because I have not been anywhere near you in "getting it" nor in the come-backs, etc. However, this very positive trait should be "hidden" a little bit as it relates to marriage recovery. You will not succeed at "bringing your H around" through reasoning, logic and eloquent persuasion. Give it up. It pushes him further away, reminds him that you are a better person (he MUST have a self-esteem problem), and makes him harden his position and desire to be right, or to not give up na matter the consequences. And it is draining for you.

3. I think you need to stop snooping, spying, or otherwise trying to get more evidence. You don't need any more, and it is very nerve-wracking for you. I know I was OBSESSED with evidence-gathering! You have all the evidence you'll ever need. And again, this unnerves your H, and drives him away.

4. Stop using family and friends as allies in this battle. It is a no-win game. They don't really get it, it takes too much time and energy to educate them, they are reluctant to intervene, there are many reasons for this, and again, your H will resent this a lot! It drives my W absolutely BANANAS!!! Even though I don't do that, just talking to my father, or going to lunch with one of the kids, she immediately imagines I'm making an ally and turning whoever it is against her!

Dos
1. Stop before any act, any conversation, any interaction and ask yourself; "How does this help me, my M, my children, or my H?" If it does help, do it, if it doesn't or you are not sure, don't do it.

2. Read up on Plan A, and mount the best and brightest Plan A ever done by any MBer! Pretend that you trust him and that he's doing what he says he's doing, start detaching, make a separate life, get new activities, move on in as many ways as you can. Get busy with other stuff, stop spending as much time with him. Do new things; volunteer at a woman's clinic, get involved in the PTA, enroll in ceramics class, it doesn't matter what it is; just new and different. Find a way within yourself to not allow what he does to affect you as much. This is key to your ability to do all of this. It is difficult to do, but it is possible. I did it, and I'm a giver and an artist at heart, even today, in the midst of Plan B, I am doing whatever I can NOT to hurt her...it is COMPLETELY out of character for me to be a harda$$!

3. Become mysterious and hard to read. Don't tell him your plans, be evasive, try to control your emotions so he's at a loss, become a 180's mystery trickster! These can be real or not; it doesn't matter; make new friends and plans, have a misterious conversation on your cell ("OK! sounds great! I'll see you there!, bye!"), get a new perfume and use it, change your style; if you wear jeans, start wearing Ann Taylor, if you wear short shorts, get longer ones, if you wear low-cut blouses, get some closed ones, etc. Anything you can think of that is a change, a "New and Improved BB", and most importantly; The New BB IS ALWAYS HAPPY! No matter what is going on, you will always smile when in his presence, you will always answer "I am doing great today!" when anyone asks and he's around (or when he asks). Now I'm not going to meddle in your private stuff, but if SF is a regular occurence in your household, cut down to half. If it's occasional, cut down to none. (well, OK, once in a while!)
I have to confess. This is a strategy that I started implementing recently on the suggestion of another MBer, and although I was familiar with the concept, that MBer's success drove me to really try it, and it works. In fact, it works VERY, VERY well. I changed a lot of things about me; hair, dress, activities, and I did volunteer at a hospital! Looked up old friends and started calling them and having them call me, made plans, went out, etc. Not all of it real, but "real" to my W, so it's the same. NOTHING I had done before even comes close to getting their attention as this has. It tells them, loud and clear, "I'm moving on, are you coming or staying?" without saying a word. In fact, the nonchalance with which you do it is the most effective part of it. Talking about it at all will ruin it.

4. A close cousin of the above, is your removal from their game. Once you have shown that you don't care what they do, and that your life is great, and that you're NOT concerned with whether they are or not in touch with the OW, you can tell him outright; "H, you are the master of your destiny, and I am the master of mine. You can do whatever you wish with your life, I will not interfere. I choose to remove myself from your triangle, from your little game." That is all you need to say. No explanation, no elaboration.

5. Be consistent. Plan your moves, work on them, execute them, and be consistent. If you can be consistent for a few weeks, it'll be enough. No anger, no fights, no snooping, not a care in the world. Can you imagine what will go on inside his head if you walk in on a call with the OW and you don't react? Savor the thought, and if you can do it....

OK, I'm not going to elaborate on the next steps as much, we'll have time for that later. But I will outline them so you can start thinking about them. These will start after a few weeks (2-3-4) of the above. The following steps lead to either Plan B, or a committment to recovery. For this phase, we'd prepare a list of "must haves and nice to haves" so at any moment that reality starts setting in, you can tell him what he needs to do.

Conversation; "H, I know you are still drinking and you are still in a R with the OW, and you know this can't go on much longer. What are you going to do about that?" NOT ANOTHER WORD.

At this point he's on notice; clean up your act, or SOMETHING is going to happen. You do not even give him a clue what that something may be. Let him wonder. It'll be worse than reality, I assure you!

Then, you'd move into a "AA and MC or you're out of here" phase.

And then, full Plan B.

Naturally, let's take it as a given that these "plans" never work out the way we plan them. There are always changes and adjustments that have to come due to the unforseeable things that happen with WSs and As. But an overall plan is good to have.

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Thanks Spaceguy - Lot's to think about and consider. I will comment, clarify, etc. once I have had the opportunity to really digest it - which I should because I now know that I am headed for LA for two days on business.

That being said, at the outset, I did want to say that I really like the way you outlined this for me.....Quite actually, the change in style thing has been a recent, but somewhat gradual change from my old, real professional, real business-like dress. Notably, he and OW had a real good laugh at my new outfits...probably because, from what I understand, OW definitely CANNOT wear these styles....Also, yes, you were right, I am an attorney, but work in the oil industry, not private practice - still, it really does affect the way I think and WH has some issues with it too - I'll elaborate later, when I have time.

Thanks for everything - I really appreciate the advice/help.

The Brat on the Northside.

Hey BB; everything OK? We haven't heard from you!

I'm back now....had to go to LA for what was supposed to be 2 days, but ended up being 1 VERY long day.....I'm thinking about starting a new thread entitled Fog is So Thick....SS Marriage About To Run Aground!

I had to fly out to LA on business - leave on a 7:45 a.m. flight Wednesday morning and return on a late flight Thursday evening. WH was to watch our 10 month old son while I was gone. On Tuesday night, at 6:00, WH went out for 4 hours - supposedly to go to COSTCO, but called me from one of his watering holes at 7:15 to say he would be home in 20 minutes. Didn't show up until 10:30. These long hours of drinking started when A started, because he would use the time out of the house to talk to OW. WH cut back on the evening hours out of the house substantially, when he supposedly recommitted to our M. I did not call him while he was out because he has told me that he sees my calling him to ask when he'll be home as trying to control him. When he did call at 7:15, I very nicely told him that I would see him when he got home. When he did come home, he mentioned that he had a session with his C. Borrowing a little from Spacecase's recommended course of action, I suggested that he ask his C how much longer C thought I should continue working on our M given his drinking and continued R with the OW, because WH knows this can't go on much longer. NOT ANOTHER WORD. Big Mistake....

First, WH advised me that he IS committed to working on our M, but I have to accept that OW is an important part of his life and that he WILL NOT, under any circumstances, cut of contact with her. If I want to be married to him, I have to accept that she is going to be a part of his life for the rest of his life. I then spent the next 2 hours listening to him detail everything I have ever done wrong in life and how I am the one who has destroyed our M. I finally told him in a very calm, cool collected manner that if he was saying is truly the way he feels, he needed to move on, find another place to stay and begin his new life with OW, because this fence-sitting is not fair to her.

WH then told me (at 12:00 midnight) that I had better find someone to watch our son while I was gone because he did not want to do it! Fortunately, the woman who watches him during the day readily agreed when I called her and asked this of her at the last minute.

Went to bed, left for LA, spent the entire day preparing for Thursday Hearing. Spoke with my C during the day and she told me that she would get with her husband to discuss where we should go from here and whether we need a group session. I have an appointment with her next Tuesday. At what was 5:30 Houston time, my son's sitter called me on my cell and told me that WH picked up our son!!!!! I panicked because WH has been walking around with his passport in his pocket for the last few days and I knew that our son's passport was in the house - would he take our son to England so that he could be with OW???

Fortunately, the other side called and postponed Thursday's hearing, so I was able to fly back home Wednesday evening. Called WH from the airport to let him know I would be coming home at midnight so that he wouldn't think something was amiss when our two dogs started barking and he heard someone opening the front door. After I told him that, I said see you them, bye. He said, "Is that all there is? No conversation, no nothing?" I calmly replied that I had talked to our son's sitter earlier, knew that he had had a good day and was doing well. What else was there to talk about? WH angrily said, "I guess, nothing." He then called me back and proceeded to tell me that, at his appointment with his C, the C agreed that WH has a drinking problem, but is not an alcoholic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> C also supposedly asked WH was he felt the need to call OW and WH replied that conversation is his top EN and OW fulfills that need. C asked WH why he needed to have OW fill that need and WH replied that he does not feel safe talking to me about anything because I intimidate him and don't listen to him and validate his thoughts...UMMMMM excuse me, for the past year, all that ever goes on is him ranting at me about everything that I am doing wrong.... According to WH, C replied that he could certainly understand why, then, WH would look to OW to fulfill that need. HUH????? I think WH's fog is so thick he did not hear C correctly!!! WH's C is a deacon in our Catholic church. Do you honestly think he would have told WH that????? Had to go because flight was leaving. When I got home, WH was asleep in our bed with wedding ring on. Reached over and tried to be affectionate.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Since then, we have be polite to each other, having only superficial conversations about our son. Notably, he is not wearing wedding ring.

Interestingly, yesterday, WH told me that, today, he is going to his physician to ask the physician to put him on Short Term Disability from work because he is not longer able to function. He said that his emotional state is preventing him from working. I responded very neutrally, by saying "Okay." I asked him what kind of plans he had for while he was on Disability and he responded very vaguely by saying that there was alot to be done around the house. I think the truth is one of two things: 1) he is going to use the time to, little by little, move his stuff out of the house; and/or 2) go to England to see OW (right now he is out of vacation time and could not take time off from work, otherwise). We will see what happens, today.

Tomorrow night, I invited him to go see one of his favorite groups at a local theater, which we are going to do. I will hold onto my hat because everytime we have "date" it blows up in my face - WH has never admitted it, but I think it is because OW gets bent out of shape that we are doing what committed couples do - spending time with each other......

So much for now.....One question, I am considering scheduling an appointment with Steve Harley. At this point, I am not sure it will help, given , WH's drinking, WH's belief that our current C's are doing a great job. how deep WH's fog is, his non-responsiveness to my Plan A-ing for the past several months, and what is becoming my general ambivalence. Any thoughts?

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-10 months
Status: Floundering in the Fog.

Well.....WH is now on Short Term Disability until September 9 and has been prescribed an additional medication - Zyprexa???? Anyone heard of it??? He is also on Prozac (has been for 4 years now because of a chemical imbalance). Anyone care to bet on how long it will take him to get on the plane to England???????

Brit's Brat/BS-41
WH-43
DS-10 months
Status: Floundering in the Fog.

Hey, BB!
Hope you're doing well. Just checking in on you.