A big part of Plan A or Plan B is for us BS's to work on our ourselves. I see many on this forum reading, studying, learning about the dynamics of R's and M's, getting IC, etc.

I have two questions, partially because I am strugling with this myself.

1) Have you really changed? Are you really better or is just the image you have of yourself changed?

2) What role is God playing in your development?

<strong>
1) Have you really changed? Are you really better or is just the image you have of yourself changed?
</strong>
I know myself better. I am emotionally more grown up and stronger. I am more knowledgeable with regard what makes my wife, and relationships in general, tick.

<strong>
2) What role is God playing in your development?</strong>
None, whatsoever. If it helps you - great, good for you. What I can say, however, is that my sense of morale & justice is sharpened. Some people wrap that up into "god & religion", I dont.

1 I have changed physically...image...looks. I have not changed on the inside. What has changed is that I let the inside me...the real me out. I have begun to bring the walls down and not be defensive. Here I am...this is me...I am a good person...its okay for you to see me. I am trying to not let fear rule my life...I am a work in progress.

2 How is it between God and I? I rely on him daily. Religion...well I haven't been able to go into our church...I begin to sob. God and I will work that out too. In the meantime, he is carrying me through this...I couldn't do it without Him.

Nick123,

Please do not take offense for what I am going to say. I expected to get cookie cutter answers.

I think we have been here so long and thought about everything so much that we have developed in our minds answers to all these questions. ie: I am emotionally stronger, I am more knowledgeable about relationships, I know myself better. Take a look at the posts. Most all of us say this, but are we actually better. I mean do we actually project to people around us that we are better, and if we are doing certain things differently then before, do they really define our change? Are they just temporary because of our obsession to "fix" our problems?

About Morality:
How can we know what is right and wrong unless we have a reference point. Without a base line reference, we are left individually to chose what is right and what is wrong based upon whatever is going on in our life's at the current time which could be accomidating. This is indeed what our WS's have done. The fog has created a morality of their own and in many ways WS's justify what they are doing and what have done. Hence, God and religion IS crucial. Otherwise, everyone is creating their own version of morality to accomodate their current situation.

Twinkles,

It is encouraging to see that someone realizes that who we are inside does not change. We can dress up, learn about R's, but when it comes down to being squeezed by life, our actions (without God) will tend to always be the same. Everyone has their own unique gifts and unique challenges and these will never change, but we certainly can dress up for a while.

About your sobbing in church: I know what you mean. Maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to touch you.

[<strong>
Please do not take offense for what I am going to say. I expected to get cookie cutter answers.
</strong>
No offense - I'm always up for a good discussion! In turn, please don&#8217;t take offense by my comments.

<strong>
Most all of us say this, but are we actually better. I mean do we actually project to people around us that we are better, and if we are doing certain things differently then before, do they really define our change? Are they just temporary because of our obsession to "fix" our problems?
</strong>
First of all I believe that we all are working on and coping with problems, in ways we wouldn&#8217;t have imagined we could, that we have the courage, the stamina, the will, the ability, the greatness, the foresight, whatever, to deal with. That&#8217;s a very tangible improvement compared to where I was e.g. the day after D-Day.
Secondly, "being a better human being" is necessarily a fuzzy concept. I tried to explain what "betters" means for me. Will my next relationship, if that happens, be of higher quality? Maybe, maybe not. But at least I know something about warning signs, something about mistakes made, something about how to cope with problems.

<strong>
How can we know what is right and wrong unless we have a reference point&#8230;.God and religion IS crucial. Otherwise, everyone is creating their own version of morality to accomodate their current situation.
</strong>

Bible alone isn't a guide to morality. Look what has been done in the name of God, in the name of the Bible. All with the appropriate justifications, chapter and verse. The crusaders massacring tens of thousands of civilians? The inquisition? The bombings in Ireland? The catholic church silence about the holocaust?
Morality is something else. It is the sum of the culture you are living in, the history of that culture, your family history, your neighbours. And religion too, as our culture is a more or less direct result of our religious beliefs.
Also, it's not a baseline, it rather changes over time. For example, if you get your girlfriend pregnant before marriage, was judged to be immoral not so long ago. Now, the vast majority of people would say: that's fine with their morals.

I think the Bible may provide a start to a road map, a basic reference system. But don&#8217;t expect the Bible to solve *all* your questions about morality, about the "why me", and about what to do next. The Bible is frequently very allegorical, and gives sort of the general idea. If you take things literally, you wont find your answers always. Or, was Eva literally formed by a rip of Adam? Did you count your husband's rips?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First of all I believe that we all are working on and coping with problems, in ways we wouldn’t have imagined we could, that we have the courage, the stamina, the will, the ability, the greatness, the foresight, whatever, to deal with.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not interested in just coping. I have no doubt I can just cope. Infidelity is not the worst thing that can happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That’s a very tangible improvement compared to where I was e.g. the day after D-Day.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Up until last week, I was no different through the many many months of trying to improve myself as I was on D-day. In fact, I was much worse. Much more out of balance and worse person then I was before D-day. I was quicker to wrath, quicker to judge, a terribly pathetic person. I have more issues to deal with then ever before. D-day and the months that followed slowly degraded me until there was nothing left. It was then I decided to get right with God. I would have a good day occassionally and write that I am a changed person a better person when in reality I only had changed for the worse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Secondly, "being a better human being" is necessarily a fuzzy concept. I tried to explain what "betters" means for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. It is a fuzzy concept when we speak of being a better person. It is impossible for us to really judge ourselfs and paint an accurate picture of who we are. Most likely we are not who we think we are.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But at least I know something about warning signs, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All relationships have ups and downs. I knew that their were problems in our relationship, but I did not expect the A. It did cross my mind. I am not interested in looking for warning signs of an A. I am interested in keeping our R strong, and in so doing, I hope the A will not occur, but I realize that A's are a posiblity regardless of how good the current R is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">something about mistakes made, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The mistakes I made had all to do about my reactions to what was going on. I am that I will react in a very similiar way unless I am close to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Morality is something else. It is the sum of the culture you are living in, the history of that culture, your family history, your neighbours. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are absolutely correct. I am not interested in morality because of this. Name your morality, most do. I know what is right and wrong because of the Holy Spirit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And religion too, as our culture is a more or less direct result of our religious beliefs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our culture is based on biblical beliefs and the Bible. "In God we trust" is printed on all of our currency. Whether or not we agree that the Bible is a guide to morality is irrelavent because it was a guide to morality and is married to this societies morality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Bible alone isn't a guide to morality. Look what has been done in the name of God, in the name of the Bible. All with the appropriate justifications, chapter and verse. The crusaders massacring tens of thousands of civilians? The inquisition? The bombings in Ireland? The catholic church silence about the holocaust?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you truly do not believe that the Bible endorses this behavior. Certainly any literary work can be defined and used and manipulated, but that does not affect the original document or it's bearing on our lifes. Besides, we are all sinners, whether we are Christian or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the Bible may provide a start to a road map, a basic reference system. But don’t expect the Bible to solve *all* your questions about morality, about the "why me", and about what to do next. The Bible is frequently very allegorical, and gives sort of the general idea. If you take things literally, you wont find your answers always. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are once again correct. The Bible was not meant to be a rule book. It was meant to point people to the cross. It is at the cross were we find the answers and the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or, was Eva literally formed by a rip of Adam? Did you count your husband's rips? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is an old one. So, knowing what we know about genetics. Do you think that if a doctor operated on you and removed one of your ribs that your subsequent offspring would have one less rib. Let us say that same doctor placed that rib in your wife. Would your daughters have one extra rib. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I know what you are saying by taking the bible in literal sense. I was just trying to show how most anything that is said could be viewed from a different perspective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you count your husband's rips? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope I do not have a husband. That would mean I need a whole heck of a lot more help then this website will give me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<strong>
I hope I do not have a husband. That would mean I need a whole heck of a lot more help then this website will give me.
</strong>
Ooops. Momentary lack of concentration I'm afraid. (believe it or not, but once in a while, I'm trying to do some work whilst being a professional full-time MB contributor)

Look, if it helps you - great. Sadly maybe, it never helped me, and doesn&#8217;t help me now. Maybe at some point in the future.

DL, if you can use your beliefs to help bring you peace, then your religion will be a great help to you. Because it will help you to carry hope and the belief that you will be ok. I never needed religion to feel those things, but I've often envied those who have it.

Anyhow, it is my opinion that you won't see change in your situation simply by handing over everything to God. YOU still have to do the work, YOU still have decisions to make and self reflection to do. If having God helps you to do that...then great! But don't think that by going to church and praying everything will be ok. I don't believe that for a second.

On a side note: Our local Catholic priest was bicycling the other day on the highway and was sideswiped by a garbage truck. He was wearing a helmet but suffered horendous head injuries. They don't know if he'll make it or what his status will be if he does. So...while God may "protect" him in the afterlife or what have you...he still needed to stear his own bicycle.

I cannot say I am "Christian like" by any means. I have been far from God a long time. I hope to be there one day. So, if I am projecting a "holyier than thou" demeanor in this thread, I am sorry.

----------------
Hey Hope,

For me to be a better person, I am trying to allow God to work through me. So in a way, going to church and praying is helping me to act more like Him. I am still the same old me, but I can curb my bad actions much better the closer I get to God. My problems such as a big ego, etc will not go away. These problems I accept of myself and try to use God to have these issues come up less often.

I do not expect any change in my situation or my WW when I turn my situation over to God. I am accepting the fact that nothing I do will change my situation because my situation is all in the hands of my WW.

The closer I get to God, the more insignificant my current dilema appears to me. Things could be so much worse in my life. I should be blessed for the things I do have. Look at all the pain and suffering in the world, I am certainly blessed by God. I do feel pain because of all of this, but it is lessoned when I think about all of my blessings. Besides, pain is all relative anyways.

In a way, the A was a blessing for me. It showed me how powerless I really am (like the priest on his bike) of changing the outcome of my life and it pointed me back to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But don't think that by going to church and praying everything will be ok. I don't believe that for a second.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see hope, for me, everything was not O.K. until I turned my life back over to God. Now everthing is O.K. The fact that my WW had (or is having) an affair although painful has no impact on eternity and God's blessings for me. I feel a burden lifted and a peace. Interestingly enough, I am beginning to act better now. Baby steps of course.

God is my creator. Undeservingly, he has given me a body, a soul, and by believing in Jesus eternal life.

The priest on his bike probably did not have a chance. It was his time to go, and that was that.

Actually he hasn't passed on yet. We'll see what happens. Of the priests that have been in this area, I really liked him the best. He was a really good man. We'll see how good God is to him....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>On a side note: Our local Catholic priest was bicycling the other day on the highway and was sideswiped by a garbage truck. He was wearing a helmet but suffered horendous head injuries. They don't know if he'll make it or what his status will be if he does. So...while God may "protect" him in the afterlife or what have you...he still needed to stear his own bicycle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H4F - you've got a very Calvinistic mindset for a Catholic <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dreamland,

Very interesting questions. Here are some of my personal thoughts that fit for me at this time.

1) Have you really changed? Are you really better or is just the image you have of yourself changed?

For me, it was an instantaneous thing.....my changing. It was a light bulb moment that took me little more than a couple minutes to absorb. It took me hours to get over the amazement of the revelation but it happened in pretty well an instant while I was posting in a thread.

My personality hasn&#8217;t changed, my character hasn&#8217;t changed, my body hasn&#8217;t changed. My perspective HAS changed.

I came to see that my love was focused on what I needed....what my H could give me....what I needed him to give me. I needed him to be faithful; I needed him to be truthful, etc. But in an instant I got the message loud and clear. The message of the bible, the message of all religions, the message of life....for me they're all the same because the key for me is unconditional love.

Unconditional love is a completely accepting love. It says I accept you, and ALL your flaws, as being the perfect you. And I EXPECT nothing in return. Very hard for us mortal humans to do because we are imperfect. We have our own weaknesses that make it impossible for us to accomplish. But the "more" unconditionally loving we become, the closer we walk in &#8220;God&#8217;s&#8221; example and the more I do that, the more alive I am feeling.

For months I read posts from some amazingly wise people here.....Kat1972, Leilana, Twyla, Bramblerose, just to name a few. My personal mentor (and she&#8217;s never written a single word to me....probably has never heard of me) is ohmy_Marie.

I took the wisdom of all their posts and merged them together and what I was hearing was you can&#8217;t control anyone but yourself... trying to change someone is wrong....you must have faith, etc.

It all pointed to gaining the wisdom to understand what unconditional love is, put it in practice by being the most unconditionally loving that I am capable of and then having the &#8216;faith&#8217; to trust that I will reap what I sow. I just had a revelation last week that one of the strongest examples of that comes in the form of the Heavenly Father (wisdom), the Son (action) and the Holy Spirit (faith). We must integrate all three facets of "God" into our lives because no one of them can stand alone. I can have the wisdom to know what to do but unless I take the actions and have the faith, I won't succeed. I can have the faith but unless I take action, which I can't do without the wisdom of what it is, nothing will change.

Having said all that, they (the above mentioned posters) also made it clear (I love BrambleRose so much for this) that we need to establish our boundaries, ensure they are properly motivated (ie. not a manipulation tactic, etc.) and then STAND by them.

For example, after my H crossed one of my boundaries, (ie had an A) then I had to accept that that is now a part of the fabric of his character. I cannot change that it happened, neither can he. I must then establish my boundary (ie. Establish whether it must stop or can I live with it continuing, etc.) and convey that message to him clearly but lovingly. If I was stronger back then, I would have said "I love you and I want you to be happy. If she makes you happier than I do then I still love you but I will let you go. You're happiness is as important to me as my own." (Instead I said the most hurtful things I could think of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

You know the old saying &#8220;If you love something set it free. If it comes back it&#8217;s yours. If it doesn&#8217;t, it never was.&#8221; We need to love our S&#8217;s for who they are while determining and ensuring OUR boundaries are respected. If they are incapable of respecting them, then we must lovingly accept that and move on because we must also love and protect ourselves.

The issues arise when we have needs that we want someone to fill, even if they don't want to. That makes unconditionally loving someone almost impossible at times. Sometimes we get so desperate to feel loved by them that we can&#8217;t let go of that last thread from the fabric of their character that we&#8217;re clinging to so tightly. Nothing feels worse to a human than feeling not loved. It is, in fact, hell on earth. Maybe that is why people feel stronger after finding God. They feel the love of God and again get what they need only this time it's even in its purest form...true unconditional love.

So am I a different person today than I was pre-A? Absolutely. But the change is only in attitude and perspective. I am a far cry from having all the answers yet. Still lots of missing puzzle peices for me. But I believe I have gained some incredibly valuable wisdom from people on this site. And you know how I can tell? I feel alive and happy again.

(Sorry this was so long. I tried to keep it as short as possible.)

Extremely_confused,

I had almost forgotten about the unconditional love part of mariage. I really appreciate you bringing this up. It is very important for me because I do try to love my wife unconditionally. It is nearly impossible on my own accord, and it is only by God's grace that I am able to love unconditionally.

I remember the reason now my WW told me about the A. We were sitting in the room and she asked me very casually if I would still love her if she had an A. I told her I would love her regardless of what she does to me. I told her if she shot me in the chest, on my dying breath I would say "I still love you with all of my heart." A week or so later (can't remember how long) she told me about her A.

I love her with all of my heart, and I am hopeful that she will see this. I have fallen on my face many times since D-day and done many things I regret. I hope I can show her that I do love her with all of my heart. I feel I am weak in the flesh and only with God's help can I do this.

Thank you for your thoughts and your post.

Nick...I really feel an EXTREME need to make it clear that I AM NOT a Catholic and have a HUGE problem with that religion above all others (that I know of at this time...hey, I'm willing to allow that there may be worse ones...maybe). My husband was a Catholic when I met him...I questioned the religion and it's practices when we were taking the catholic marriage classes...and the priest came unglued shook his finger in my husbands face. SEEEE WHAT YOU'RE GETTING YOURSELF IN TO!! LOL!! That was the last of the classes for us. H quit going to church when they wouldn't allow him to take communion for a year as punishment for marrying a non catholic. He doesn't practice the religion...although I believe he still says he's catholic. Oh, and we got to celebrate the baptism of his cousins out of wedlock child shortly after we got married. Evidently her "sin" was far more pardonable than ours was?!?!

Anyway..just wanted to make it VEHAMENTLY clear...I am not and will NEVER be Catholic. No offense to those who choose to be...I simply have a horrible taste in my mouth from my experiences and the past history of that particular religion.