Today marks 2 weeks since I left my home to begin Steve's "Pre-Plan B". I must say it has gone pretty well for me, I only had one "close call" with panic, and no real doubts about what I'm doing. I'm actually feeling pretty comfortable, and have no urge to go home.
Friday of the first week was my S's B/Day, the BBQ, Hawaiian shirt and new cologne.
So what's going on? Well, 6 days after I left, my WW had a session with Steve in which she basically told him she "missed" me, and "what do I need to do to bring my H home?" Steve told her "Radical Honesty and Evidence" are the only things you can do to bring him home. She agreed she was going to do that, and I began planning how I'd handle this. Expectations were high that the conversation would take place, although the content and outcome were in serious doubt. We were very surprised that she seemed ready to "do something" so quickly. It was decided to postpone going to full Plan B (scheduled for the next day) in order to give her the chance to have this conversation.
Then the next evening:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC: I just got off the phone with my W, she's actually called me 3 times today, to ask computer questions.

<strong>But now, she told me "I had planned for us to have a talk, but now I think we both need a few more days, to think about things, and not have this hanging over us, and we'll talk then, OK?"

Since I'm not supposed to know we were going to talk, I said; "We were set up to talk?"

And she said; "No, but I told Steve that we would talk, but I need a few days, he's been pushing me too hard, and I need a few days. Is that OK?"</strong>

And I said "Sure, just let me know when you'd like to do it. By the way we have an appointment with Steve on bla, bla bla."

I believe she had a conversation with our friend psychologist tonight, and maybe they decided that it was not the right time for this, who knows? I'm just speculating about that.

So...what now? Hang loose, wait and see whan/if she decides to have the "talk", in the meantime still in Semi-B, some contact...call with Steve on Monday...life goes on...rats!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This unleashed my major panic of the Pre Plan B; I started having doubts as to whether I should fix her pc or not, and what, if anything I should say to her....logic prevailed, I fixed her pc and then said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Well, you should probably think about some other ways of getting these things done, since it's a bit difficult for me while I'm not living here.", she opened her eyes (quick wake-up) and said "I'm sorry, what was that?", so I said <strong>"I think you should be thinking about some other ways of getting all these things I do for you done, because it's a little difficult for me to do them when I'm not living here."</strong> she just stared at me, not angry, just kinda' floored I guess...I stared right back for a few seconds, made SURE I didn't blink, and headed down the stairs and out. She didn't say another word.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After that, all that remained was to wait for her to speak with Steve again on the 19th, to see what was going (or not going) to happen. After that session, Steve called me to give me an update:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Steve just called me.

He just had a few minutes, but wanted to get me up to date on what's going on.
My W told him she had NOT spoken to me as she'd promised him she'd do. Why? No real reason, the ususl run-around, not ready, too soon, not sure....

So he hit her hard. Treated her like a "hostile witness" (his words). Told her in no uncertain terms, that unless she acts, "this is not going to work". That she cannot wait for the "feeling" to come before she acts, it will be too late. That just like when you exercise, you have to exercise to receive the benefits; energy, weight loss, stength. Likewise with this process of falling in love again. You must take the ateps FIRST, the feelings will come from taking the steps, doing the work. If she waits for the feelings, it will be too late.

So I asked him; "Is this real? I mean is she going to do this because she is starting to get it, or because you are pressuring her, or because she's afraid of losing me, or what?" and he answered; "Oh, it's real. See, I'm the only one asking her, demanding that she answer the tough questions. Forcing her to take a look at herself in ways she hasn't dared to before." so I insisted "Steve, but is it real? do you feel that she is getting it or is she promising to do this because she's scared, because I left, because of fear? Is it real in the sense that she really wants this, or is it another stall tactic, is it just to buy more time?" I mean I don't want a false recovery, a temporary salve to the wound. I would rather go to Plan B, wait, whatever, but I don't want a fake recovery to bring me home only to have to reach the stage I had to reach before so I can leave again! That would be devastating!

So he went on; <strong>"SC, we have a window of opportunity here. She has lost contact with the OM, that has hurt, that has made her evaluate, look at her life, question some long-held beliefs, 'truths'. This is our opportunity to get her to open up, to start working on your love...even if later on she again has the opportunity to visit the OM, by then it'll be too late for that. She'll be in love with you again. This is all still to a great extent related to her privacy/individuality thing, but she is starting to see the damage that has done to her life, to your marriage. I have made her look at herself in ways she has not looked before, to face the harsh reality. Granted we're not fully there yet, but it has started. It IS real."</strong>

Then he asked me; "SC, your Plan B letter is ready, right?" "Right" I said. "OK, so here's what we're going to do. She has promised to do this by Thursday night. That's the deadline I gave her. Can you make it till Friday?" and I said yes. "OK, so make an appointment to speak with me on Friday. If she goes through with it, we'll see what she said, and go from there. If she doesn't go through with it, if she backs out again, then we press on with a full Plan B. She knows this is one of her last chances. I told her that. And she's seeing it now."

So the waiting game continues, this time with a hard deadline...last chance...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I was planning for the conversation, this time with more "high-level" goals than before...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since Steve really didn't give me much guidance in terms of handling the "talk" my W is supposed to have with me, I'd like to outline my thoughts and expectations, see what everyone thinks. I'm sure I'll get good feedback.

I guess the first thing I'll say is that I don't expect much. At least in the first conversation, I expect she'll be "feeling me out" to make sure that I'm not going to go ballistic on her, maybe putting some stuff out there to see how/if it sticks, and maybe, if I'm lucky, she might venture into some of the things she is willing/going to do.

In general, my strategy is just to listen, stay calm and see where she's going with this. I have no idea if she interprets Steve's "Radical Honesty and Evidence" the same way Steve and I do...maybe, maybe not. Probably not!

And before we get into some specific actions, perhaps it is best to try to gauge her mood, willingness, understanding, of what this is and how to go about trying to fix it. I was thinking of watching for things like:

Remorse
Comittment to M
Desire to learn
Acceptance of responsibility
Belief in our future
What made her decide to...do whatever it is she's trying to do!
Am I missing some here?

I was also thinking that it will probably take a "few" talks before I should be willing to go home...
at least two. That will make it a process she would have to work through. I'm sure she's not just going to offer up the "key" items I'd listed as needed to go home...so I can say she's doing good, I'm proud and happy, and I'm going to think about it and get back to her...maybe then start talking about some "deliverables" she'd need to make. I don't know, but I guess it could go something like that?

These are the ones I'd written before:
Must Have's (How would you feel about..?)
· Demonstrated End of R with OM
· Measures to ensure NC/Rules for attempted contact (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to Radical Honesty
· Full Disclosure, End, and Access to; communications, interaction, characters
· Specific actions to re-build trust (Details to be negotiated w/Steve)
· Commitment to on-going work on M issues w/Steve and IC

Nice to Have's
· OM knows it's over and rebuilding M - NC letter
· OM’s family knows it’s over / NC
· Other Characters know it’s over / NC
· Letter to Warden ending Communications
· Friends / SIL who were lied to told the truth
· Commitment to on-going and POJA’d implementation of Principles
· Tell me the real story
· Answer my questions about this
· Demonstrate loyalty to me & family above loyalty to OM

I mean there are a lot of things; a lot of the "story" has now been proven not to be true or complete, but that would probably come later. I don't really care about that right now. I DO care about an understanding that the time to answer questions WILL come.

And I have other fears. What if she tells me these 2 As I'm aware of were only the first and last and that there were x number of others in between....it's HAS been nearly 15 years since the first one...what then? Can I handle that? Would she risk saying it even if it were true? Scary stuff, this!

The key thing for me will be to gauge if this is "REAL". Is she being honest, has she begun to "see the light", what is she prepared to give up, how far is she willing to go, to "expose" herself...or is this just one more "card" in her stalling arsenal she's playing...that maybe is why I'd like to make it "a process" so she has the opportunity to show some consistent behavior over x number of days, weeks, meetings...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the conversation occurs, I will start it off like this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"This is your time to talk, I'm just going to listen, and ask questions if I'd like you to clarify something, OK?"

Then, at the end, I can tell her that I'm not sure what I want to do, that I'll think about it and get back to her...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope she doesn't back off or change her mind again. The "bad" thing is she had another conversation with her therapist this morning...I hope that doesn't portend the same results as last week...one more day to go to see what will happen...

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

IMHO: If you are waiting for an immediate 180 deg. from your WW, you will be waiting a long time. These 180's DO NOT HAPPEN. It is a painfully slow process to change the heart. She has been cementing her opinions about you for a long time, and it will take a long time to chip this perception away. If you all of a sudden see a 180. Expect that it is a false action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "I think you should be thinking about some other ways of getting all these things I do for you done, because it's a little difficult for me to do them when I'm not living here." she just stared at me, not angry, just kinda' floored I guess...I stared right back for a few seconds, made SURE I didn't blink, and headed down the stairs and out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a noble thing you did going over to fix your WW's PC. It is unfortunate that you responded the way you did. Here is my take on the $LB deposit for your WW that night.

FIX PC = 100 points
Negative Comment = -100 points
TOTAL = 0 points

BTW: What role do you think God plays in our Plan A and Plan B?

DL, tell me something; do you enjoy irritating people?

I can accept that you have a difference of opinion with my thinking. No problem there.

But drawing incorrect assumptions and hammering them home is irritating. WHERE do I say I expect my W to do an immediate 180?

Furthermore, we had extensive discussions about my fixing my W's pc and saying what I said. At the end of that discussion, we agreed that we could not agree. So what is your purpose in again giving me your opinion on that here?

Do you just enjoy creating and perpetuating discord?

You have very good and valid opinions on many things, but this is not a competition to be won by he who screams the loudest and the longest. I am the first to back off an opinion or thought if I come to believe it is wrong or unwarranted, I don't maintain my position at all costs and attempt to force-feed it to those who opine differently. And I believe you should do the same.

SC,

It seems to me that you are going to be heading for Plan B. I would not worry too much about what to say to your W. I think if she does want to talk, it should be her doing the talking. She pretty much knows where you are coming from.

My friend you have done what you can do. You have said what needs to be said. You have had extraordinary patience. So wait until Fri, and if nothing happens go to the full Plan B. I think it will be another jolt for her. She has lost your presence and soon she will lose communications. I think SH is playing this about right, and I think you have played it right. Yes, even fixing the PC.

I do recall when DL first came here and I suggested that he consider preparing for Plan B. He jumped down my throat and told me true love would win out. Now he seems to have done the 180 and thinks that Plan B is the only salvation.

As you know SC, this is a process. The real bummer is that we don't know what you are processing. It could be fertilizer or it could be cookies. I do hope it is the latter.

You are doing will. By the way, when are you donning the suit to go meet the suits for the job interview?? Soon I hope.

God Bless,

JL

SC:

"Today marks 2 weeks since I left my home to begin Steve's "Pre-Plan B". I must say it has gone pretty well for me, I only had one "close call" with panic, and no real doubts about what I'm doing. I'm actually feeling pretty comfortable, and have no urge to go home."

This is the most important thing I read in your post. You're doing well. You've had coaching from the best and feedback from the best on this forum for months now.

And so, I'll say it again: Of all the things that you have control over or don't have control over in your life, your own attitude is the most important to your well-being, and THAT seems to be on solid ground now.

Persevere, I'm not Paul Harvey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

It seems to me that you are going to be heading for Plan B. I would not worry too much about what to say to your W. I think if she does want to talk, it should be her doing the talking. She pretty much knows where you are coming from.

My friend you have done what you can do. You have said what needs to be said. You have had extraordinary patience. So wait until Fri, and if nothing happens go to the full Plan B. I think it will be another jolt for her. She has lost your presence and soon she will lose communications. I think SH is playing this about right, and I think you have played it right. Yes, even fixing the PC.

As you know SC, this is a process. The real bummer is that we don't know what you are processing. It could be fertilizer or it could be cookies. I do hope it is the latter.

You are doing will. By the way, when are you donning the suit to go meet the suits for the job interview?? Soon I hope.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your encouragement, JL. Always appreciated.

As I've said before, I too expect that Plan B is in my future. I will let her speak her piece and if she's beginning to make sense, maybe we can continue conversing and see what happens (Hope for Cookies!). But my expectations are she's not "there" yet, and Plan B will be forthcoming.

I sure haven't done it all by the book, but I feel confident I've done well. And Steve agrees; he's really the "architect" of all thse moves. And that pc thing; I was just following my instinct and Steve's insistence that regardless of what she says or does, I have to make statements that I care, and that I believe in the future. I believe that was one of them.

No word yet on the interview....getting nervous!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:...This is the most important thing I read in your post. You're doing well. You've had coaching from the best and feedback from the best on this forum for months now.

And so, I'll say it again: Of all the things that you have control over or don't have control over in your life, your own attitude is the most important to your well-being, and THAT seems to be on solid ground now.

Persevere, I'm not Paul Harvey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, 2L; that is the most important thing. I do feel the "pangs" of fear, of regret, the sense of losing something I believed would be forever, the jealousy of not being able to have her be with me...and I cry for her when I hear certain songs, and when I write things like this, or when a film reminds me of better, more dream-filled days...I SO wish I could just hold her, and speak a few words in her ear, and make everything right...I so, wish I'd not been so blind...

But perhaps, a miracle will yet come to pass, so hope is not lost...not yet.

SC:

"I SO wish I could just hold her, and speak a few words in her ear, and make everything right..."

Ah yes, the magic bullet! I wish all that too.

"I so, wish I'd not been so blind..."

Me too. But then I remember that my WW KNEW about her A for 11 years longer than I did, and could have done something about my "blindness" a long time ago. But she didn't. Instead, I get blamed for not being "there" for her when she needed me the most. I wasn't there, not because I was blind, but because the room was DARK. And she knew where the light switch was and CHOSE NOT TO turn it on!!

End of metaphor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:...Me too. But then I remember that my WW KNEW about her A for 11 years longer than I did, and could have done something about my "blindness" a long time ago. But she didn't. Instead, I get blamed for not being "there" for her when she needed me the most. I wasn't there, not because I was blind, but because the room was DARK. And she knew where the light switch was and CHOSE NOT TO turn it on!!

End of metaphor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I forgive her even that. And STILL wish I'd not been blind to what was happening...

But perhaps, a miracle will yet come to pass, so hope is not lost...not yet.

Perhaps the most amazing miracle I have seen in my life is how the human spirit can take so much bad and still do so well.

Space, perhaps you will get your miracle. I hope you do. Actually I believe you will. ( sorry, can't list reasons this time.)

Whatever happens, you will be OK. You really need to believe this, act like it is true. Have a little faith in yourself, like we do.

I know you can't quit worrying - but when you do worry, tell your self over and over that it will be alright. Become a self fulfilling prophecy. I am one that believes that in large part we make our own luck. Good Luck.

SS

My son just called, the college kid (G-d! I can't believe I have a college junior!) he had lunch with his mother today, and they apparently had a long discussion about "our problems". He didn't tell me much, except that my W just says "He'll never forgive me, I know he won't". And that is her "justification" for not doing anything. My son told her; "You have to give him a chance; I know he will forgive you."

I love that boy!

Dear Space:

No advice you are getting it from the best of the best. I admire your stance and your ability to see that you have done what you can and that it is all one can do.

Listen and learn from your W now the ball is in her court.

I will send a prayer that your W will talk to you and the end result will be what is best for you and your family.

All my best to you

Jack

P.S. 2Long is no slouch himself.

You are both men to admire.

SC:

Your W doesn't realize that you already HAVE forgiven her. Forgiveness is a gift, trust has to be earned, remember? I know you and I know that, but our WSs don't, strangely enough. You need to be able to trust her now. She needs to forgive you, for not having thermal infrared eyeballs so that you could have seen in that dark room (I refuse to call you blind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). She also needs to rebuild her trust in YOU, but she needs to be coming from a firm trustworthy foundation of her own making in order to do that.

Spacecase....

Is this even a valid thought?

Is she hiding behind that phrase "He'll never forgive me, I know he won't" because if she accepts that you can forgive her then she would have to accept(and claim to herself) that what she did was wrong? I only mention this because I have discussed my brother's (hcii) situation with him and this is the conclusion that I arrived at a long time ago with his WS.

As always, JMHO

SC,

You know the love letter that is the Plan B letter? Well, if you have or can forgive your W, I do think you need to state that right at the beginning or as you end it. You will never forget what has happened but you are fully capable of forgiveness, IF she will accept it.

I think your son said just the right things. I believe you said he is at Austin right? Fine school, both W and I got degrees from there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No Aggies in this family, although she does have a few relatives that are Aggie. Heck, you cannot have everything with the in-laws. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Must go,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

Your W doesn't realize that you already HAVE forgiven her. Forgiveness is a gift, trust has to be earned, remember? I know you and I know that, but our WSs don't, strangely enough. You need to be able to trust her now. She needs to forgive you, for not having thermal infrared eyeballs so that you could have seen in that dark room (I refuse to call you blind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). She also needs to rebuild her trust in YOU, but she needs to be coming from a firm trustworthy foundation of her own making in order to do that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen!
I have an idea 2L; since you have that funky hotmail account (2l@hotmail or something) you want to send my W the essay that talks about Forgiveness and Trust? It'd be anonymous, I mean just call it "Thought for the Day" and she'll think it's one of the hundreds she gets every day...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>Spacecase....

Is this even a valid thought?

Is she hiding behind that phrase "He'll never forgive me, I know he won't" because if she accepts that you can forgive her then she would have to accept(and claim to herself) that what she did was wrong? I only mention this because I have discussed my brother's (hcii) situation with him and this is the conclusion that I arrived at a long time ago with his WS.

As always, JMHO</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HCII-Sis: That is a perfectly valid thought. The WS cannot come to grips with the possibility (horror of horrors!) that they MAY have something to do with this having happened. So any justification they can create/invent/transpose/kindnap/hijack/steal/beg or borrow, is used to deffer the realization that they may have to face themselves one day. And I'm sure it's likely that many marriages have ended because the very proud, self-righteous WS was never able to admit that and face their own music.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

You know the love letter that is the Plan B letter? Well, if you have or can forgive your W, I do think you need to state that right at the beginning or as you end it. You will never forget what has happened but you are fully capable of forgiveness, IF she will accept it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a great idea! Going to do it right now!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your son said just the right things. I believe you said he is at Austin right? Fine school, both W and I got degrees from there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> No Aggies in this family, although she does have a few relatives that are Aggie. Heck, you cannot have everything with the in-laws. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Must go,

JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Aggies here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Go Longhorns! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SC:

"I have an idea 2L; since you have that funky hotmail account (2l@hotmail or something) you want to send my W the essay that talks about Forgiveness and Trust? It'd be anonymous, I mean just call it "Thought for the Day" and she'll think it's one of the hundreds she gets every day...?"

Um... You KNOW what would happen, of course. She would blame YOU for sending it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Dear SC,

I have been following your story since i started posting (and you posted on my thread "Can you repair after an affair?-which i want to thank you for. It is incredible how strong you are and i have to ask-please don;t take this the wrong way but when do you give up? People who know about my situation cannot believe how good i am attempting at being and then i think of you and what you are doing, but at what point do you move on? Are you afraid that you are putting too much energy in this, she has all but stomped on you. I know today's society, people just throw in the towel so quickly, and there needs to be more of us out there but i am so afraid my H will leave, and while he is moving on i will be devastated at home. I want to commend you for you srength, your W is incredibly lucky and hopefully she realizes this someday. Please let me know how you are doing..Take care and if you get a minute to read my thread i would appreciate advice-is it time for Plan A.