</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>My son just called, the college kid (G-d! I can't believe I have a college junior!) he had lunch with his mother today, and they apparently had a long discussion about "our problems". He didn't tell me much, except that my W just says "He'll never forgive me, I know he won't". And that is her "justification" for not doing anything. My son told her; "You have to give him a chance; I know he will forgive you."

I love that boy!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space, not to be critical of your WW, but her statement that "You'll never forgive her" is so annoying!! That is her cop-out for not doing anything; and makes me wonder if she isn't just projecting here.

Maybe the reality is that she can't forgive herself; or she thinks that if your roles were reversed she could never forgive you. Who knows!

The interesting part of this is she will find out if you will forgive her. And that will be based on some part by her actions in the immediate future. FOG FOG FOG....and more fog!

By the way...what needs do you suppose she has been getting met by the OP??? What could possibly be her motivation?

Sorry to vent on your thread about your situation; I want happily ever after for you! CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>"He'll never forgive me, I know he won't". And that is her "justification" for not doing anything. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spacecase: even though I feel like me and you are in the same boat at sea, lost in the fog, heading towards an iceberg we will hit or miss, heres my take on that comment:

Your wife obviously feels guilt, and yes, you are probably right, this may be her "justification". But it just goes to show you, without saying, how badly she feels. Right now, if the tables were suddenly turned, she would not have the faith/resources you have, would not be able to handle the situation, and would not forgive you. She feels what she is doing is totally wrong, and none can be forgiven for it. She thought she was in a tunnel, has been trying to crawl out, just to find shes just digging a bigger pit, and does not understand that there is a way out. That is just my take on it.

I don't know if you are a Christian man or not, but here's a link on a Bible Study of Hosea, I had never read that chapter but for the whole time this has been going on, it just "conveniently" shows up everywhere I go:

Undying Love - The Story of Hosea and Gomer

Anyway, even though I am having a hard time keeping up with your posts, you are in my thoughts, stay strong, ok??

Respectfully,

I have many times backed down on my opinions. Maybe I am wrong about the 180. I have no problem saying that. I discuss all facets of my opinions with you, and we have had some good exchanges, and many times at the end I would say, maybe you are probably right. I am in no way trying to battle with you.

This is a discussion forum and if I have two to three back and forth (hardly a discussion) with you, I hardly see that this is being steadfast in my opinion. You may want to look at yourself and your reactions when someone disagrees with you. They may be enlightening. You are very controlling in your tone.

BTW: I was only trying to help.

<small>[ August 21, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: dreamland ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

"I have an idea 2L; since you have that funky hotmail account (2l@hotmail or something) you want to send my W the essay that talks about Forgiveness and Trust? It'd be anonymous, I mean just call it "Thought for the Day" and she'll think it's one of the hundreds she gets every day...?"

Um... You KNOW what would happen, of course. She would blame YOU for sending it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, of course; you DO know that everything bad that has ever happened in our hemisphere was my doing, right? And my sole purpose in life is to exist to make my W miserable. OK, just so we're clear on that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But what the heck! She MIGHT read it!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Zachsmom:
<strong>Dear SC,

I have been following your story since i started posting (and you posted on my thread "Can you repair after an affair?-which i want to thank you for. It is incredible how strong you are and i have to ask-please don;t take this the wrong way but when do you give up? People who know about my situation cannot believe how good i am attempting at being and then i think of you and what you are doing, but at what point do you move on? Are you afraid that you are putting too much energy in this, she has all but stomped on you. I know today's society, people just throw in the towel so quickly, and there needs to be more of us out there but i am so afraid my H will leave, and while he is moving on i will be devastated at home. I want to commend you for you srength, your W is incredibly lucky and hopefully she realizes this someday. Please let me know how you are doing..Take care and if you get a minute to read my thread i would appreciate advice-is it time for Plan A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ZM; I don't really know how to answer that. Perhaps it is my strong belief that she has made mistakes and lost her way, and being the protector that I am, I almost cannot help but bend over backwards to try to help her.

Perhaps it is because I am a firm believer in that WE as parents are FULLY responsible for our children's education, in particular as it relates to ethics, morals and values. As parents, my W and I have ALWAYS made ourselves responsible for our children's education, growth, and morals. And we have some of the very best relationships and communication, and friendships any parent could ever wish for in a child. And every friend and family member who has ever had one of our kids in his/her home almost invariably commends us on their manners, consideration and education. And to me, THAT is what the family represents. And I will no more give up on that, than I would give up on saving one of my kid's life!

Perhaps it is also fear. Fear of losing what I have held so dear for so long, fear of not having her next to me when we grow old.

Perhaps it is all of these and more...I truly cannot answer that...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong> Space, not to be critical of your WW, but her statement that "You'll never forgive her" is so annoying!! That is her cop-out for not doing anything; and makes me wonder if she isn't just projecting here.

Maybe the reality is that she can't forgive herself; or she thinks that if your roles were reversed she could never forgive you. Who knows!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree it's a cop-out, a good reason for not doing anything. If we already know the outcome, and it cannot be good, why run in the race?

And it is also one more fence-sitting action. Why should I make any effort, change what I think, look at myself, concede anything, divulge the truth, etc. if I already know the outcome; it'll be for nothing, because he'll never forgive me!

And I can't swear to this, because I've never done anything remotely as bad as an affair, but I stongly suspect she'd have thrown me out with the clothes on my back if it had been me. And that would probably happen after she'd severed my member, and perforated me with every carving knife in the kitchen!!! LOL!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The interesting part of this is she will find out if you will forgive her. And that will be based on some part by her actions in the immediate future. FOG FOG FOG....and more fog!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've only said it 100 times; I would be long gone if I felt I could not forgive you or get over this and make a better marriage than we had. Does fog also clog the hearing canal? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
By the way...what needs do you suppose she has been getting met by the OP??? What could possibly be her motivation?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh, that's easy: Admiration, Adulation, Conversation, Feeling Needed...hey, I have NEVER said I wasn't guilty of neglecting my W. I did, I have, and I'm sorry. And I'm all over it!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Sorry to vent on your thread about your situation; I want happily ever after for you! CSue </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CSue, you are one of my favorite MBers, and you are free to do as you please on my thread! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

DL;
I have made close to 2000 posts on this board, and unless I'm mistaken, the only time I have deliberately responded in a belligerent fashion has been to that one post of yours.

But before you reach the conclusions you are reaching, read your own posts and their tone, and read the unsolicited responses other MBers have left for you on my threads.

I'm not going to argue with you, as I am simply not interested. If it makes you feel better to say that I am controlling or anything else, I'm glad that in some way I can satisfy that need for you. After all, these days I am here more to give than to receive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by going_crazy:
<strong>Spacecase: even though I feel like me and you are in the same boat at sea, lost in the fog, heading towards an iceberg we will hit or miss...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I see things a little more positively than that! Maybe my W and your H are going to hit icebergs! But I sure don't intend to! LOL!!!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Your wife obviously feels guilt, and yes, you are probably right, this may be her "justification". But it just goes to show you, without saying, how badly she feels. Right now, if the tables were suddenly turned, she would not have the faith/resources you have, would not be able to handle the situation, and would not forgive you.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a very interesting statement; and certainly rings true. Scary, isn't it?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She feels what she is doing is totally wrong, and none can be forgiven for it. She thought she was in a tunnel, has been trying to crawl out, just to find shes just digging a bigger pit, and does not understand that there is a way out. That is just my take on it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That, unfortunately, is probably a very good analogy. She does NOT SEE that there IS a way out...even though we have laid it out for her with a red carpet, landing lights, and foam to cushion the fall...how fearful of facing herself must she be...

In a way, THAT is what pains me the most. Seeing her suffer so. You know, if she'd come and say to me "Look, I love the OM, I can't live without him, I have to go." I'd cry, I'd be devastated, but I'd be happier than I am now...because it would mean she looked, found what she wanted, and decided. And that is better than this never-ending agony of indecision and doubt.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if you are a Christian man or not, but here's a link on a Bible Study of Hosea, I had never read that chapter but for the whole time this has been going on, it just "conveniently" shows up everywhere I go:
Undying Love - The Story of Hosea and Gomer
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm jewish, so I guess that's close enough! LOL!!! I will read it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, even though I am having a hard time keeping up with your posts, you are in my thoughts, stay strong, ok?? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you are in mine. Thanks!

This refers to the post SC made Aug 9 on the "Can you repair after an affair?" thread, which I think is the thing 2long and SC are talking about sending to SC's wife - Forgiveness :

I printed out that thread on forgivness. It was really thought-provoking, but in the end I concluded that the author confused forgiveness and reconciliation. Forgiving someone means they unfairly/immorally/illegally hurt you in some way, and retribution of some kind would be just, but in lieu of justice, you are choosing mercy, and giving up your right to retribution. The classic example of forgiveness is if someone borrows money from you, and you forgive the debt. They owe you the money, but you give up your right to that money. Contrary to the excerpt from "After the Affair" restitution is NOT required for forgivness. In fact as far as I am concerned there is NOTHING my wife could do could earn forgiveness for her A. There is nothing she could do to make it up to me. She cannot give me back those three years of dishonesty and replace them with three honest years, and that is the only thing I would consider just payment for what she did. Again, this is not consistent w/ MB, but IMO, if I do not forgive her, our relationship dies. Also, forgiveness does not require that the other person show remorse. I can give up my "claim" to those years, or to hurting or punishing her in some other way, no matter what she does or says or feels.

Reconciliation is another thing entirely. There can be forgiveness without reconciliation, but not reconciliation without forgiveness. Forgiveness is only one step toward reconciliation, however. Reconciliation is a restoration of some kind of relationship with the person who hurt you. Unless you want to be a doormat, reconciliation requires that the person who hurt you DEMONSTRATE (words only count if consistent w/ actions) that they will not hurt you again. In the case of an A, the new reconciled relationship must be different from the old, or a new A is extremely likely. So, I have problems with using the word "restoration" at all. As far as I am concerned, my old marriage died. I have no desire to restore things to the way they were (I'd sooner die, frankly). It is not even possible, anyway - we both have changed.

Although this is definitely not what Harley says, a big part of reconciliation is the rebuilding of trust. I just don't understand how can you reconcile with someone you fear will hurt you again, nor how you can be vigilant enough to be sure they won't hurt you by verifying their every move (I want a life, too, you know). Harley may be right that remorse is not required, but new patterns of behavior with each other are certainly required. Consistency over time in those new patterns of behavior are what lead to regained trust, IMO. Expressed remorse makes it easier to believe that the new behavior patterns will "stick", but if the behavior changes don't last, the expressed remorse is not worth anything.

The other important part in reconciliation is identifying what behaviors need to change. Books like SAA and Torn Asunder were fantastic in helping us identify what went wrong, along with some painful introspection on both our parts.

I really appreciated the author's list of things for which the BS and WS need to forgive themselves. It is absolutely GREAT. Thanks SC, I needed that!! Given my religious views, I look at it as accepting forgiveness rather than forgiving myself, but let's not quibble. It was really helpful. Your wife may respond to the idea of forgiving herself, or accepting your forgiveness, or not respond at all...

I found "The Art of Forgiving: When You Need to Forgive and Don't Know How", by Lewis Smedes, was a good book on the subject.

John; I think that Forgiveness, Trust, Reconciliation all have different meanings and requirements for each person and for different circumstances.

I think my main attraction to the definition of forgiveness in "After the Affair" is that, simply, it meets my personal feelings about what I would like to get.

This will bedifferent for each person, and that's OK too.

Here's another view on Forgiveness you may find useful:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Forgiveness is a Gift You Give Yourself</strong>

Are you someone who walks around feeling angry with your spouse or loved one much of the time? Do you have a little inner voice that constantly reminds you of all of his or her wrongdoings? Have you become expert at remembering all the minute details of past injustices just so that you can keep score? If this describes you at all, you better read what I’m about to say and take it to heart.

Lack of forgiveness imprisons you. It takes its toll on your physical and emotional health. It keeps you stuck in the deepest of relationship ruts. No matter how justified you feel about your point of view regarding your partner’s insensitive behavior, you still are miserable. When you wake up each morning, a gray tint shadows your life. You walk around with a low-grade depression. You can’t feel joy because you’re too busy being angry or feeling disappointed.

In the face of these fairly obvious disadvantages, you hang on to your belief that, since you feel let down, you must not “give in.” To you, giving in means forgiving, letting go, making peace. To do so, would be tantamount to giving up your soul. So, you keep your distance. You interact in perfunctory ways, never allowing your partner to step over the emotional line you’ve drawn. And though the distance often feels intolerable, forgiveness is not on your short list of solutions to your dilemma.

I have worked with so many couples who say they want to heal their relationships. And yet, when they’re offered the tools, they can’t seem to move forward. These are the couples who, instead of finding effective ways to get beyond blame, continue to repeat their mantra, “Our problems are your fault and you must pay.” As long as they maintain this mindset, they are doomed to failure. How very sad. Even sadder are their children who, on a day-by-day observe their parents being “right” but “miserable.” What lessons are they learning about love?

If any of this strikes a chord with you (and you wouldn’t be reading this if it didn’t), you need to internalize that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of resentment can set you free. It can bring more love and happiness into your life. It opens the door to intimacy and connection. It makes you feel whole.

Forgiving others takes strength, particularly when you feel wronged, but the fortitude required to forgive pales in comparison to the energy necessary to maintain a sizable grudge. The person most hurt by holding out or blaming is YOU, no matter what the circumstances.

“All this sounds good,” you tell yourself, “but how can I ever forget what my partner did to me?” Good question. You don’t! Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. You will probably always remember the particular injustice(s) that drove you into your corner. But what will happen, is that when you forgive, the intense emotions associated with the event(s) begin to fade. You will feel happier, lighter, more loving. And these renewed positive feelings won’t go unnoticed. Others will be drawn to you.

Just keep in mind that forgiveness isn’t a feeling. It is a decision. You decide that you are going start tomorrow with a clean slate. Even if it isn’t easy, you make the determination that the alternative is even harder, and that you are going to do what you must to begin creating a more positive future.

So promise yourself, that no matter what the reason, you will not go another day blaming your partner and feeling lonely. Make peace. Make up. Make love. I promise you that the benefits of deciding to forgive go far beyond anything you can picture in your mind’s eye at the moment. Your decision to forgive will create a ripple effect of exponential changes in your life.
Michelle Weiner-Davis
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

GC; I read "The Story of Hosea and Gomer" and loved it!

Truly an inspirational lesson for us all. Thank you!

(there's a Link to it above, in GC's post)

We're down to the final day of Steve's "deadline" to my W...what will it bring, I wonder? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My thoughts when I read your last post sparked a rememberie for me.

After H and I seperated we found a counselor. We saw her for marital counseling for a while, then individually. She tried to help me learn to calm my mind. My head was non-stop spinning with confusion and thoughts. I couldn't sort it all out because I couldn't get mentally "quiet" enough to organize the thoughts. She gave me homework to meditate for 5 minutes a night. The next time I saw her she asked me how it was going. I told her fine, but that I found myself not knowing how long I'd been quieting myself and I would look over at the clock. Ok...she said...put a timer in your room...set it for 5 minutes...then you can concentrate on quieting yourself. Allright...did that. A few sessions later she asked how it was going and I said...darn it, I made cookies one evening and needed the timer and forgot to put it back...I just keep forgetting and I haven't been meditating like I should. She looked at me and said...buy another timer. It hit me like a ton of bricks. DUH! A new timer was a whopping $5 or so...how simple would it be to simply buy another one? I told her I felt really really stupid...why on earth hadn't I thought of that myself? She told me a reciprocal story of how a client of hers was supposed to write how they felt on a calendar every day...hadn't done their homework because they didn't have a calendar? BUY ONE, PRINT ONE, DUH??!! She said we set up roadblocks to our success. The simplest things and we can't see them, because we put the roadblock there.

What's my point? I think your WW is stalling...and she'll have some excuse (roadblock) as to why that is. Her homework is quite simple really...but she'll try to avoid it.

I hope I'm wrong!

Steve has been telling her that exact phrase for several sessions; "you are setting up roadblocks for yourself" ("If I give up my privacy, I'll be giving up my personality", "he'll never forgive me", "it's all his fault", etc. etc.) I only hope some of that has sunk in enough that she'll be willing to step outside the comfort zone she's erected and take a risk.

Steve used a good metaphor; "you have to do the exercise before you see the muscles growing. If you wait until they show you they are growing before doing the exercise, you'll wait forever."

H4F:

"I hope I'm wrong!"

I don't see how you CAN be wrong. I do things like that. My WW very DEFINITELY does things like that. She also keeps her mind spinning so fast that if she stopped to think the inertia would spill her brains out her ears and all over the place in the process. And, finally, Rat Meat, curse his puny li'l heart, does this. Like, the first time he sent the CD to my W back in May, it got delivered to the wrong address, went back home where his W found it and threw him out? Second time takes until August!, it gets lost by Fedex this past week???? Bull Feathers!

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Didn't ck out the link, but did pull out my bible a few weeks ago and read the whole book of Hosea.... Not too long, it was really wonderful.

We all can forgive and take them back in our arms and make them whole...

Problem in my situation and many ws.. is that they think we are the PROBLEM... repeat... THE PROBLEM... I find this, a problem... why is it my fault I drove... DROVE h away? I did not, but this is HIS EXCUSE>

HUGS AND RELIEF OF HEART ACHES TO EVERYONE TODAY, Honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The plot thickens...WW just called me, said she'd like to get together tonight, but can't since it's the last day all 3 kids will be able to have dinner with her together, so could we get together for "coffee" tomorrow at 10AM?

I obviously accepted; I NEVER say no to free Starbucks! LOL!!!

wanted to check in with you Spacecase, how are you doing?

I'm sure you won't get much sleep tonight. What exactly is the timeline, the last I remember is that your wife needed to make a decision today and you will talk to Steve tomorrow? Does she have an appt with Steve tomorrow and then Steve will call you with the update??

Spacecase, I hope the fog completely lifts in Houston, you're in my thoughts.

BTW, I am glad that you enjoyed the Hosea and Gomer link, like I said, I had never read that chapter, actually had never heard of it, until the affair. It really did just keep "popping up" everywhere I went!!

Thanks GC,

My W called today, said she wanted to get together to talk tonight, but asked if we could do it tomorrow, since tonight is the last night all 3 kids will be together with her for dinner. (they work, and John's off to college on Monday)

So we agreed to meet for coffee at Starbucks at 10AM...

Then I have an apptmt with Steve at 2PM, to decide what to do based on what she says...

Contrary to popular belief (if you've read my other thread) I'm not as crazy or obsessed as it makes me appear LOL!!!. I'll be fine, and I'll sleep fine tonight.

I'm thinking of you too. You'll be fine! Be kind, gentle and understanding. As I will be tomorrow.

hi SC,

I agree with the power of marriage and parenting, i never thought i would put so much in to it and now i cannot imagine my life without it or him, even though i was adament at one time that an affair was unforgivable, suddenly i find myself wanting nothing more than to forgive..Stay strong!!!!!!