I lurk but don't post much anymore so I will give a brief synopsis of where I am in this whole deal...

I am the BS---W is WS...d-day was 2/01...I have been here at MB for a year and half. WW moved out 3/01, Moved back 8/01 (false recovery) moved back out 1/02 and remains on her own. A is pretty much over and has been since 3/02 or there-abouts. WW is on anti-deps. She is not able to recommit to the marriage...says she just doesn't feel what she needs to feel to do that. She is seeing an IC and her priest. Our contact is fairly minimal (maybe a call or e-mail once or twice a week) and I do not initaite any of it.

So....WW asked me to dinner earlier this week. We had an OK time, chatted, caught up on what's going on in each other's lives. Then she said she had made reservations for us to go out of town for the weekend...mostly to shop, knock around etc. She says no heavy R talk just "see how we feel about each other." I said yeah, I can do that, so we are going away this weekend.

My problem is after all this time I'm not sure how I feel. Ambivalent may be close to the answer...I don't know. I was surprised about the offer (dinner and the weekend) and thought, well maybe the fog is beginning to lift....but then no follow up since then (Monday). I haven't really heard from her.

We have done this before...gone away together (no SF, no real affection--and I don't expect any this weekend and don't know how I would react if she initiated any) and when we returned she has just said...I just don't feel what I need to feel to begin to recover. I am beginning to doubt that she ever will and I don't know where I am on that either.

You know, maybe I am just having a bad week or bad couple of days (tomorrow is my birthday and it will be the first time in ages--maybe ever--that I have spent it alone)...I just feel really down right now because there seems like so little effort is taking place.

I am also a bit befuddled 'cause last month in a phone conversation she had said she wanted to spend more time with me and try to recover and see whre things go and that she was going to make everything up to me etc, etc etc...and in the span of three or four days she had backed off on that completely...

Maybe I'm just plain worn out from all of this; from no ENs being met in a allthis time; from feeling rejected; and from what appears to me to be her lackof interest...and I am thinking that it is way past time that the fog should have liftyed somewhat....

As I have told her...sometimes it seems like she is trying to figure out how she can move ahead with me as if it were me who had the A.

I don't know where I am going with this post but if anyone has any insight I would appreciate hearing it...

If nothing else, thanks for listening...

I think I'll go make myself a birthday cake---a litte sweetness might just perk me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care

E

Elad -- You know our stories are similar. Just when I was really feeling way down/indifferent back in July, WH calls up and says let's go on a vacation. I just about fell out of my chair at work. I tried not to have any expectations and did just about the best I ever had at plan A while on that trip. We hiked, mountain biked, slept late, etc. and I did not talk about R and neither did he -- until the last night he woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me that no matter what kind of good time we were having/how much he tried, he was just no longer in love with me/attracted to me. I didn't sleep the rest of the night.

It was so hard. BUT, I am glad I went on the trip and it allowed me to reconnect with the things I do still love about WH (other than the last comment he made). I seriously did not know whether it was possible for us to have fun together. We did.

I recommend going for YOU. I am sure you could use a vacation.

I'll be sending you a cyber birthday cake tomorrow -- how would chocolate with chocolate mocha frosting be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Elad,

I think you are looking at this trip all wrong. This trip isn't to see if SHE can reconnect with you, it is to see if YOU can reconnect with her and enjoy being around her. You still love the woman you married, not the woman that is going on the trip with you. The woman on the trip you need to get to know and learn about. Not the relationship.

So look at this as sort of a blind date. You don't know who or what will show up, and you darn sure know that this person isn't going to be in love with you, she doesn't know you and you don't know her. So plan on talking about politics, religion, speeding laws, LIFE, etc. But not about each other.

It could be an interesting diversion, but it will surely be educational. You may find that this woman you are going isn't the type you would like to spend much time with. Such knowledge is very important to YOUR future decisions.

You see Elad, you have the control here, not her. She is going to have to eventually prove to you that she is a person you could love and trust before this marriage can continue. She is the one on the hot seat not you.

So enjoy your 'blind date' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Enjoy the weekend, and learn what you can about this woman that mysteriously called you and asked you to go for a weekend. I have only been on one such date (strange woman asked me to accompany her for a weekend), it was interesting and a bit odd, but an experience I never forgot.

Hang in there Elad.

JL

Boy, oh boy, Elad, you've sure got a lot of patience!!! 18 months? Loooong time.

Here's a couple of questions to ponder:

- Have you had ANY discussions about the direction of your M? I realize that constant R talks are generally "frowned upon", but well planned and well timed can be important - at least to figure out what's going on.

- What's your "plan"? I mean... Plan A? Have you ever done Plan B at any time? Are you getting fed up, wanting to quit, find someone else yet? I'm coming up on 12 months here and I can't imagine another 6 with no progress. Won't happen.

- Do you think you could subtly influence her to talk with one of the Harleys? Call yourself, then they might ask her to call so they can help YOU. (And they are helping you - figure out how to deal with HER!!)

- Is her lack of interest in the R due to her getting more and more comfortable being without you? If you've ever considered Plan B, you'd want to do it, I'd think, while she's still got a strong enough attachment to you. Just something to keep in mind.

Anyhow, I'm no expert... just throwing out some thoughts.

Thanks for your replies...

unsureheart No expectations is exactly what I have...I haven't had any in a long time...I can really relate to your feelings about your H saying he is no longer "in love" (although waking you up in the middle of the nite to tell you that is kinda nasty <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ) The way my WW puts it is there is "no passion" and she keeps asking how to get that back...

BTW---Chocolate/chocalote mocha will be just fine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Thanks!!!!

Just Learning You are dead on when you say I need to see if I can reconnect with her...and that I love the person I married but not sure about this person. The problem is that she has been so caught up in all of HER stuff that she has not been fun or fun to be with...and of course I am always waiting for that rejection shoe to drop (not in love...no passion...no desire...yada, yada, yada) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm not sure I have much control here, though...at least now...but I do feel that I am getting there and maybe that's a good thing for me, yes?

J.R. Yeah, I am a patient man...though that is a recent thing (since the A) and I think it has been a good thing for me...part of a new strength I guess. But as I have told my WW, everyone's patience has its limits.

We have had R talks but there still appears to be no direction. I don't have a problem going away for the weekend and not talking about the R becuase it seems every time we do, I end up feeling bad.

My plan? There's a good question...sort of plan A, sort of plan B, sort of I'm not sure exactly...I do think this varies a lot for all of us and there is no cookie cutter plan A or plan B. Mostly I am just working on plan Elad to make him a person someone can love and respect and care for...

Thanks for all your replies...I appreciate the support.

E

Happy Birthday.

Cake, well, I'll have some for you today!

Happy Birthday Dear Elad, Happy Birthday to YOU!

I hope you made a spectacular cake... have a piece for me too...

Hugs,
Cali

Thanks Cali...

Actually I made cupcakes and I will have one for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You still da queen!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

E

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ELAD

Thanks unsure...

Had an e-card from my WW and a brief phone call:
"Happy Birthday"

What the heck is happy about it?

....*BIG SIGH*.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

After 18 months I wonder if she will ever "get it."

It doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence for a fun weekend, but I guess I will just take what comes and deal with it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks again...

E

Although it is totally understandable that you have huge doubts about her, her actions seem to be the kind where she wants to find out a couple of things from you (remember that both of you have lived apart for quite awhile). Things like resentment, anger, love, etc. which would make it possible or impossible for her to come back to you. She probably realizes that she hurt you with her A and with the false recovery, and does not want to hurt you again and thus all the talk about "see how we feel about each other" . If you go without expectations that she has seen the light, is remorseful, and dying to do backflips to repair the M, and instead go with the purpose of making the weekend a fun filled one with somebody that you are meeting for the first time, then whichever way it goes, you will have lost nothing and just maybe planted the seeds for her to truly want to be your W once more.

Good luck and God bless.

Elad -- How was your birthday? The weekend?

Hi unsure---thanks for asking.

I have been away from the board for a few days...I have been taking some vacation time and trying to catch up on work at home.

My birthday prety much sucked. Spent it by myself for the first time in my life...not much of a celebration...I treated myself to a pizza and a couple of beers...whoopeee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Trip with my WW was OK for the most part....mostly we just shopped...I guess I am a little resentful in that I have the house and pretty much have all the house expenses which pretty much keeps me on a financial edge....on the other hand WW always seems to have $$$ to shop and whatever so that kind of gets to me after a couple days of shopping--but, oh well...

Anyway the beginning of our 3 plus hour drive was a little tense 'cause I was still out of sorts from my b-day etc....after a while we talked...just about stuff mostly, not much relationship stuff. Although WW said we needed this time together so she could see how she felt about me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WTF? Why is it that the one who is betrayed here is the one who is being scrutinized to determine whether they are worthy of the WS???? Makes no sense does it?

Like I said we shopped...for a guy I am a very patient shopper and I don't mind wandering the malls....and had a couple of nice dinners...

Sunday morning she was very quiet...and I knew she was thinking....The ride home was quiet 'til she said "Can we talk?"

I love that question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Anyway, she kicked it off by saying she didn't know how either of us could be happy together and it went from there...she is basically in the same place as she was...no desire, no spark, no passion--for me....for us... YUK!

She wanted to know how I felt so I told her some stuff...just that I was still hoping we could try and if I didn't belive that I wouldn't still be hanging in there...that I still believed we could make it but it would be a lot of work and very hard---harder in fact than the opposite...

Bottom line is that I told her I could tell her how I felt til I was blue in the face but what really mattered is how she felt and if she could be committed to the relationship....she said she knew that and that it would be hard...

She also said that she felt a lot of pressure and that she knew we had to do something but she was still unsure about what to do and how she felt....

She said maybe she should file for D to see how that made her feel...

I basically said that if she wanted to file that she should...I can't stop her. But I was not going to file for a divorce I don't want...

Somebody else said this here a week or so ago about not being afraid of losing their spouse...that kind of hit me last week and I told WW that, while I didn't want a divorce and don't want to end our realtionship, that I wasn't scared anymore of that happening...

Anyway....the weekend could have been better but, oh well...

We are on a break for right now and she says she will catch up with me in a few days (she is seeing her IC)

Don't know what is going to happen, I am just trying to keep my head above water--still!

Anyway, thanks for asking...

I hope things are going better for you...

Take care

E

Hi E,
Glad your weekend was OK (you survived, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), and sorry your birthday was alone. Why dint ya hang out with buddies or family?

Anyhoo... I may be crazy, but reading your summary of your W's fog reminds me a little of Spacecase's sitch. Read up on his latest posts: "Steve said Plan B", and the "Orchid: Fogese Interpretation" thread.

Read those, and lemme know whatcha think about Plan B, K? (How's your love bank, and how much more could you PLan A?)

Elad --

Sorry your birthday was a bummer -- my birthday was shortly after d-day (and on valentine's day to boot).

The weekend sounds familiar. Sometimes I do believe their is an alien ship transmitting to their brains. It's just a little too uncanny that these WS all say the same things at every stage of the various sagas.

While the weekend probably wasn't everything you would hope for (and I think we all hope for too much even when we know better), I do think it is a positive sign that she wanted to spend that kind of time with you.

I think you handled yourself very well. It is extremely difficult to stay focused when somebody is telling you that they just don't think they will ever have desire and passion for you. I think it's a lot of bunk. I think that the WS feel so guilty and it makes it really hard for them to think of the BS in any way other than "my god they will never forgive me" and so the BS is s constant reminder of their mistake.

Your WW must be nuts not to be madly in love with you -- good lord man you went SHOPPING all weekend. I don't think I know any men who would shop all weekend. That has to be filling up her lovebank.

She is still cruising around in the fog -- that statement that maybe she ought to file for a D to see how she feels? Hello, what is that? That is classic fogese.

I am sorry that I don't have anything truly insightful to say about your situation. I know it's hard. One day I think I can do this a little while longer and then I hear junk coming out of WH's mouth similar to what you heard over the weekend from your WS and I think "And the reason I am wanting a relationship with this person is what exactly?".

Overall I would view the fact that she wanted to spend a weekend together as positive. She is still in some foggy or quasi-foggy state however.

Faith & unsure...

Thanks for the responses...

Faith---I will read up on the threads you mentioned...been away on "vacation" if you call painting and yard work vacation....just getting caught up here tonite a little...thanks for the post---yeah there are days when that love bank seems like it dips into the red...but I kinda keep plugging along... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

unsure--- You said: "Your WW must be nuts not to be madly in love with you -- good lord man you went SHOPPING all weekend. I don't think I know any men who would shop all weekend."

LOL--I agree she should be madly in love w/me just for the hours I have hung out in Victoria's Secret and The Express alone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's probably part of the patience I am displaying now as I move along on this 18-month long journey.

I agree that she may still be cruising along in the fog...my oh my but it has been foggy for a long time...

Don't worry about not being insightful...I have made many of those posts before...even when I thought I WAS being insightful <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I appreciate just hearing from others in the same boat...like you said it's amazing how the same uncanny words come from those WS mouths...

My next big hurdle comes soon...our 10th anniversary is next week...that ought be fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Thanks for the support.

E

Elad,
Hi, I don't think I have ever posted you but saw your name mentioned in unsurehearts post, my thoughts are with you, us 3 are on about the same timeline, with my WH slipping in and out the fog too (he's back in it way deep with withdrawal).

I am sorry that I don't have any advice to post, just to tell you that I understand what you are going through, it is so hard ((((Elad)))))

Hi going_crazy

Thanks for the post and support...

In reading your timeline, it looks like you have been hangiing in ther for a long time, too. As of today it will makr nine months of separation for my WW and me...it sucks.

I don't have a lot of inspiration either but like I said B-4...it's somewhat comforting that we all aren'y alone....hang in there.

E

Hi Elad,

Here is my 2 cents if you are interested:

1. Your W contacted and spent time with you. This is a positive thing. If she wanted nothing to do with you, she would have nothing to do with you. (Actions speak louder than words.)

2. If you are feeling really bad/sad/mad about the situation, do something fun for you. Get out. Go out with friends. Do something you really like, get away, do a hobbie. Spoil yourself. This will lift your spirits when WW is not around so you don't LB when she is around. Plus if one day she is not around permanently, you'll know how to have fun without her.

3. The feeling of love comes from actions and meeting needs. A concept that Dr. Phil says (in his book Relationship Rescue) is that after a marriage has been on the rocks for so long, both spouses don't know how to love each other properly. He calls for a "Programming" of how to act towards each other even if they do not feel love or desire or want to act that way towards each other. It is sorta going through the motions but those actions will generate the love eventually.

This is similar to the Harley methodology. The concept of a spouse moving from a stage of withdrawal to a stage of conflict and then to intimacy occurs when the other spouse is being a Giver and not a Taker (this info comes from this website.)

Steve Harley has used the analogy of going to a gym. You can't get the results you want like big muscles, loss of fat, and a healthy body without putting in the time and effort regularly. Same thing with that in-love feeling. We must "work out hard and regularly" to get the relationship we want.

We must put in the time and work to show our love through actions (doing things, meeting needs, not lbing) and this will (over time) generate the feeling in our spouses.

However, I think this #3 only works (i.e. WS is "in love" with us) when the A is actually dead/they are out of withdrawal from OP.

After an A dies, I'm not sure if there is only a brief window of opportunity or not to get into Recovery and do #3 until it becomes natural for both spouses again. I know that after the A dies the WS feels withdrawal, anger, depression because of the loss of OP so them saying they want to work on the relationship is rare. But once they get through that is when true recovery occurs. I guess we as WS should keep doing those actions towards WS so either their feelings of love are generated or at least they see we are changing and are a safe place for our WS to come to.

I like the idea that someone else suggested to you of thinking of going out with your W as a blind date. Focus on the friendship and try not to get your hopes/expectations up or at least not get down if you're let down (i.e. when WS spouts anti-M stuff - personally I'm just ignoring it until my W does something about it.)

I'm trying #3 now (as part of Plan A) to the extent my WW lets me - even though the A is still on and I see her once a week at most. If the A dies I will continue #3 and hopefully get to and through recovery.

aanast2...thanks for ytour response...

When we were seeing a MC togther she suggested the same thing (#3)..."fake it 'til you make it" is what she called it...

MWD also says the same thig...that is try to respond to any feelings of love you feel no matter how slight to see if that will eventually make it into full fledged "in love" feeling.

That's hard to do when you have been burned like many of us BS's have been...but worth trying.

I will give it my best shot and see what the response is like...

Thanks

E