Well... About 2 hours to go before I see WW for our little "chat".

I've had all sorts of ideas floating through my mind of what to say, or how to approach things... and I just suspect I'll have to wing it all - who knows how a conversation could evolve.

One of the key points I want to make is that I'll be moving away if we're not together at some point here... I can't be ultra-specific because I don't have a specific plan myself yet. But I think she needs to know... I think she thinks she can continue this charade indefinitely, 'cause I'll be sitting around pining for her.

I picked up some new cologne on the way home... maybe make her wonder a little... I can talk about my nice time last weekend... I can be charming... But in the end, I think I'll need to be pretty blunt.

<small>[ August 22, 2002, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Good luck! We'll be wondering about you!

New cologne? YOU DOG! LOL!

So JR... How did it go???

Okey... here's my update...

So we go out and have supper at a place close to her place, and it was nice. We talked "like normal" - quite good. She did seem a bit nervous, admitted such - said she was waiting for me to drop an anvil on her or something... I laughed.

Went back to "her place" (can't believe I'm saying that). Was a little awkward at first, sat on the couch, trying to think of how to start into things. She fired up some small-talk. Eventually I found an opening and dove in - mildly at first. "Well since I've blown my boundaries anyhow, I was wondering how you are", etc.

The conversation went pretty well. I asked a lot of probing questions, I think showing my natural concern for her, etc. She cried a lot - which is probably a good sign. There were maybe only 1 or 2 clearly foggy statements... for the most part she was fairly lucid. She talked about how she's thinking about what she wants in a partner (I got a chance to ask), etc.

I got in my most important "required goal" - letting her know that I've considered moving back home... I think that paniced her a little, but I think she realizes it wouldn't happen tomorrow.

Some interesting stuff:

- She's still sleeping on that darn air mattress (in pretty bad shape now). She admits she resists getting a bed - might send me the wrong message. Said she probably can't take the air mattress for more than a week or two more, then joked if I'd let her back into ours.

- She admits she's got her heels dug in about moving closer to her work, although she admits she's also feeling pretty drained from that. We were actually able to talk openly about the possibility that "if" we get back together of moving closer to her work and my finding something in a city close to that... a definite option. (With the right conditions!)

- I got in what I considered to be an important "thought grenade"... I noted how I found things a little less difficult when I thought of her decision as relating to HER, not between me, OM, the M, etc. - that it's an act of definition, identity and would define how she sees the world, thinks, feels, etc... it was a statement about ME, yet she said "I'll think about that!"

- She admits that she wakes up every morning and wonders what the heck she's doing.

- I explain my fears / concerns about contact, she says she understands, that she's entered into areas I've "opened up" tenatively herself - she fears hurting me.

- She said that one weekend, she gave herself the task of just thinking about my good traits, things she loves about me, etc. - not a task given by IC/MC. I was touched. Her most foggy statement then followed, along the lines of not wanting to give me false hope essentially. (But not phrased quite that harshly.)

- She admits she has no real "plan" in place.

- She admits that she'll need to stay at her job for maybe another 6 months to get at least 1 publication. This disturbed me, but not overly surprised. She'd have to be thinking this way by now to renew in time.

We didn't really have the chance to get into much depth on the state of the A, but I have some info coming shortly, I hope.

Basically, I asked a lot of questions, she asked a few, we talked, she cried a bit, I comforted her, and... I don't know. I don't know how to measure "success" in this. She admits that at times during this, she's just wanted to bang on my door and say, "I want my husband! I want my cats! I want my life!" To hear these things... is valuable. But without a clear plan... I don't know. I let her know that I have concerns about feeling used without some additional "things" in place - I think she knows and understands. But I think maybe a second meeting is in order... Baby steps??

Throw in her noticing my new cologne, her making joking comments about needing to paint my finger where my wedding band was, etc. - was interesting at very least. But I sit it up against discussions prior to leaving, and I only see some differences. I think I just grazed the elephant, and need to consider what to try next.

If she's still involved with OM, he'd be horrified to know about this evening. (He wasn't really mentioned at all.)

Go, Bungalow Bill! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sounds good to me, JR. A good start, maybe open for more progress. Very good, I think.

Any discussion about "what's next" between you two? I mean another get-together, something like that?

Well, it sounds like a nice talk. And she has an idea that you have thoughts of moving on. But really...at any point did she really get any indication that you're burning out?? JR, it sounds to me like you're still trying to be "soft" on her so as not to scare her away. When you reach the point you can say "look, it's time for a decision. Either you make one or I do." I know, that's a demand...but truthfully, that IS what it will come down to. Did you give her some indication as to how much more time you have in you? Are you going back to a strict Plan B now? What's YOUR plan at this point?

Hey J.R.---

I can't tell you how many times I have heard the following:

"...along the lines of not wanting to give me false hope..."

Followed by:

"...I want my life!"

Cripes, if that's the case, do something about it!!!

Jeez, I don't know how they get so totally paralyzed by what---fear, indecision, what?

Anyway--sounds like you had a good talk and it sounds like we are very close to the same point, although I am pretty sure there is no OM anymore, but even there...when do we really know?

Hang tough bud...

E

"I want ... I want ... I want ..."

vs

"I will do whatever it takes to recover and repair our marriage."

??????

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Here's a couple of additional things I forgot about the conversation:

- She said "I still know that I won't be happy unless I know you're happy". On one hand, that's nice, but on another, it's still about "her, her, her". (Lots of "I" statements.)

- She admitted that up to around a week before our anniversary, she'd been doing not too bad... but something really hit her hard around then, and she was quite a mess. (It'd been about 6 weeks of pretty solid NC by then.)

- She said it's been hard for her, not being able to "connect" with who I'm "becoming" (i.e. from Plan A)... not sure if that's a genuine issue - i.e., she still has doubts that my changes are real, or just an excuse for more contact.

- When I talked about moving home a bit, she admitted it'd take everything she had not to quit her job and run after me (paraphrased). That's very telling, I think. I think if she's pushed really, really hard, she'd do the "right thing" - but I don't want her waking up "by force", if it can be avoided. Doesn't seem like a solid foundation to build on. I'd prefer she comes to me out of love and respect - not fear.

- When she talked about what she's looking for in a partner: someone who's excited about the future, open with their feelings, etc. These were previous complaints with me and positives about OM in her mind - not sure if this is fog-talk - but I have to believe that if OM was so perfect with this, I'd have my answer by now.

- She was open to having me send along some info about self-forgiveness (I've got another thread going for that). She's willing - so I'll definitely oblige. H4F, I'll be passing along your words... (Interesting, WW mentioned that song by Alanis, too!)

I consider this a very, very interesting learning experience. A lot of intelligence gathering, even if some of it is a bit foggy. I think it can help me formulate some more effective next steps.

I think she's got such incredible misconceptions about things, it's hard to not try and "educate" her... but I know that's not the right way to go about it. I feel like the time before I left, she saw a very "passive" me... very permissive... I want her to see a very different, strong, unyielding me, who knows how to communicate openly and honestly. And someone who IS READY TO MOVE ON. That's the key... I don't think she really appreciated that, even with me leaving. I'm starting to tell her, though.

It's an interesting problem... Plan B is great to protect the BS and gives the WS a good taste of reality... but it doesn't necessarily have "enough motivation" for SOME WS's... Look at all the examples out there where Dv or threat of Dv was the real, final motivator.

I think what I do next is:

- Let her come to me.

- See if we can't plan one more "chat"... this time address more issues, see if any room exists for further negotiation. I'm willing to negotiate - if she's willing to take certain steps. Basically, I'm giving her a chance to prove herself... she'll know it's that, too. And she's got to know that if she blows it, I'm in full Plan B, and I'm moving back home by the end of the year - end of story. I.e., I'm moving on, not just sitting and waiting. Big, important difference from before. If this is the case, she can't accuse me of not being open and honest about my position (e.g. moving home), can't say I didn't "try" (i.e. a clear attempt AFTER separating using very good MB-type skills), and will KNOW that I'm more than capable to meet her EN's. Plus she'll hopefully have a few more "thought grenades" - H4F's words, my comment about the decision being about her, etc.