I have a really hard time getting too close...but yet I do it. It's like I don't want to but I can't seem to help it. I guess I'm crusty on the outside and mushy on the inside. Still, I've never been so close to ANYONE that my guard was completely down. I guess I don't think that will ever happen, nor do I think it's a bad thing. I'm willing to be trusting...just not naive.

It's weird that you'd bring up the dog...my dad had a similiar issue with his dog. Somehow he decided it was the only one he was close to in his life and it's death was so painful he refused to ever let anyone else in. While I understand that concept as a CHILD...I think it's extremely selfish and "poor me" to try to carry those same issues as an adult. My dad could have worked through that had he chosen to. How exactly did he think I was going to feel when he chose to commit suicide? His dog died because it was OLD...my dad chose to end his life at 50. Ok...now I'm getting angry again......

Point was...we can all hold on to childhood issues if we WANT to. Mom wasn't there, Dad wasn't there, Dad drank, Mom was crazy, dog died, we moved so much I couldn't keep friends, blah blah blah blah blah.... I want to live in the here and now where I make my own choices and am not a victim to others.

Sorry, the dog thing just kind of triggered me I guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never did anything very quickly...drug my feet the entire time. I was one of those WS's who just was NEVER sure....you're WW sounds like one of those afraid to change their mind so they move ahead as quickly as possible. That doesn't mean she was sure...she was high and didn't want to lose that feeling to something like guilt or doubt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">H4F,

Its reassuring to hear this from a WS's perspective. As to my W on the fast track, she surely was. I say "was", because it seems as though she is slowing down a little. However, she has fooled me before.

Times like the past week, where she came here all "mushy" after not speaking to me for over 2 months and the last meaningful conversations we had were of her practically screaming for me to get lost, really get me confused, crazy, ...hell I don't know what.

After her making it a point to see me for 3 straight days after the 2 month absence, and now...POOF!...gone again, I don't know what to think.

I really believe my WW's biggest prob is her pride. She always has a very hard time of "showing" her guilt or remorse, and especially if she's wrong. She always was pretty good about "saying" it, though.

I guess my past week is why they call it the rollercoaster. I must admit, however, that when she pulls these stunts, even though they may appear progressive, it really irks me to a degree. I mean....I get to the point where I am recovering from this mess, and I always let myself get dragged back into it.

I probably need to be like your H. Be firm, yet fair, tell her that this AIN'T gonna work, and let the chips fall where they may. It's driving me bananas, especially when she made the comment the other night..." Who knows? We may even get remarried IF we divorce, and have the BIG wedding that we never had ".

Da**, fog IS contagious.

HCII

I would let her know that in no terms is that a possibility for you. I would let her know that she chose to burn bridges and has chosen not to show the same consideration for trying to wiggle back IN to your life as she showed trying to get OUT of it. I would make sure she sees it's now or never...[censored] or get off the pot.

The reason I say this is because I had visions of the same thing. H never really came out and proposed to me and I told a girlfriend that I'd just go ahead and get divorced and he could just do the work next time if he wanted to marry me. Pride...oh yea!! Arrogance too.

I got a slap in the face for that one though. I was in the basement trying to sort through all the crap to get "my" things packed up and out of my "H's" house and I ran across one of my many sentimental stashes of notes and such. When H and I were first together he wrote me many notes. Not too mushy but very flirtatious and cute. I found one that said "I want you to be my w_ _ _, I love you very much and will ask you in person later". I sat in the basement and bawled my eyes out. I was so hell bent on being angry that my H never did a big production of asking me, that he only wanted to marry me cause his mom said he'd better since we were living together etc... that I didn't remember the note. I didn't remember him asking in his cute little roundabout way. I hoped like crazy as I sat in the basement and cried that he'd come downstairs and "catch" me so I we could talk. Pride kept me from going upstairs and doing it myself. Pride kept me from apologizing and rushing right in to my H's arms at that moment. Because I felt his love through those notes...the love that I'd denyed up to that point.

Wow...all sorts of ouchie rememberies tonight. And hubbies out with the boys. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm gonna need some cuddling when he gets home.

Anyway...H told me that had the divorce actually come about...he would not have opened that door back up to me any time soon, if ever. He was comfortable with the idea of moving on...he'd gained acceptance. If I had let my pride allow the finalization of the Dv...that would have been it for him. It might do your W some good to know it may just be the same for you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wow...all sorts of ouchie rememberies tonight. And hubbies out with the boys. I'm gonna need some cuddling when he gets home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry 'bout that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But...keep talking if ya want to...I don't mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway...H told me that had the divorce actually come about...he would not have opened that door back up to me any time soon, if ever. He was comfortable with the idea of moving on...he'd gained acceptance. If I had let my pride allow the finalization of the Dv...that would have been it for him. It might do your W some good to know it may just be the same for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is basically where I stand right now. I haven't said the same to her yet, as I was giving it some time to "feel her out", considering we hadn't spoken in 2 months, and she was with OM the whole time.

I did, though, tell her in a roundabout way that I could think of 14 years worth of reasons to stay, but if I was "out", I would have trouble finding "one" to come back.

But...I'm going to have to be honest with her on one thing...

I cannot be sure that I can, and will, be able to handle everything that has happened. I can do my darndest to try, and put my all into it, but there are no guarantees. I don't think she will be very receptive to that. That, I think, may make her feel that it's not worth the effort. But...I will not candy-coat it. I have to be honest. Dishonesty got us in the mess we are in. HCII ain't gonna play that game anymore.

Sound logical?

HCII

Yes it does...and there are simply NO GUARANTEES in life no matter what. Life is a risk just by living it. I think that as WS's we tend to get stuck in how we WANT things to be (ie a life WITH guarantees, everything we want, full comfort and safety etc etc..) instead of realizing we're wasting our time wishing when we could be DOING things to help our life be as much as it can be.

Something else I wanted to say, but forgot, is this....

IF there is an effort to straighten this mess out, and right now it could go either way by either of us, the situation will be this:

I have read with great interest the advice that BS's are given when attempting a reconciliation. How they must let the WS know that there will be certain boundaries, if you wish, etc. And that the WS MUST understand the need for this.

However, I will request (actually REQUIRE) only 1 initial thing. That would be counseling with either Jennifer, or Steve. Preferably, Jennifer. I think the WW would be more receptive to her. That, there will be NO negotiating on. We both are just fragile enough, to the point I feel that there is no way in hell we can even begin to rebuild this R without an intermediary.

I guess now, it is just "wait and see".

HCII

I think that is an AWESOME demand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That would be your absolutely best chance.

H4F ... I totally love you!

I'll be your surrogate Mom. OK?

Pepperino <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

H4F,

Great thread!! I agree. For those of us who are dealing with a guiltstricken confused Ws, the detaching, being ambivalent and not afraid to move forward is the only way to go. At least it was for me. In fact when the Ws called and begged to come home and the OW was in the background yelling for me to take him home, then him in practically the next breathe saying he was 'almost' comfortable there, well that sent me to that state.

I told him to stay with the OW a bit longer, I really was not ready for him to move back. I was beginning to enjoy my freedom. I had already been numbed by the pain. What more was the WS and OW going to threaten me with? They had played most of their hand and it and the OW were getting old. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I had say what I mean and mean what I say. I did. I am glad. However, I now move forward with caution. The WS turned in his title 14 months after that night, and took the title of H back. He says he no longer misses the OW. But for me, plan B is always in my back pocket. The trust will definitely take longer to rebuild.

I am no longer afraid.

L.

hcii: I have a theory to your question about why your wife has seen you for 3 days then pulled back. I went thru this myself with my h after d day.
This is what I found. My h would come home, see me and our 4 children, then go off again, to do his "thing". (He had moved out at this time).
After a few weeks of this I got fed up, he was coming home getting everyones hopes up, easing his guilt, filling in time when no one else was available, then leaving to go out with ow, friends etc.
Early one sunday morning I heard his car coming up our driveway, he had been here on saturday afternoon, then left because he had plans. I assumed sunday mornings visit was because he had nothing better too do, and was filling in time.
SSSSSoo.. I met him at his car and told him not too come in, that he couldn't just drop in whenever it suited him, and that it didn't suit me right now! (hey I new nothing about mb at this stage). Boy, you should have seen that smile wiped off his face. I came back inside, not sure what I had done <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But.. something worked.
My theory is that if he had been allowed to go on fence sitting and cake eating it would have continued.
I think your wife may have been gauging the mood, so to speak. As soon as she realised she was still "safe", that she could still have you back if she wanted, she felt safe enough to retreat.
Now.. I have made my own situation sound very cut and dried and easy, and beleive me it wasn't..
But I do know that I went from feeling hideously ill, insecure, terrified, miserable, lonely..
too on top of the world as soon as my h said those magic words, I want to come home. As soon as I heard those (several times before it actually did happen!) words I felt as though I had some power! Then I would say stuff I totally did not want or beleive, ie. Oh, maybe we are better off seperated, blah blah, and make him feel like he didn't have any choices.
Sorry hcii, hope I haven't lost you in all that, and that maybe some of it makes sense??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Deb.

h4f:

It's weird talking about closeness with pets, because I don't have any of my own right now (though a couple of cats have ME):

"I have a really hard time getting too close...but yet I do it. It's like I don't want to but I can't seem to help it. I guess I'm crusty on the outside and mushy on the inside."

Me? i'm mushy all over.

"Still, I've never been so close to ANYONE that my guard was completely down."

My guard WAS completely down for the past 12 years! It's actually been hardest for me to become "cynical" at all since D-day, if that makes any sense (though some of my posts certainly sound cynical).

"I guess I don't think that will ever happen, nor do I think it's a bad thing. I'm willing to be trusting...just not naive."

I hope that I won't be so naive in the future. I don't think I will. I can certainly read the "signs" of an A better than I ever could. That naivete is very definitely dead.

"It's weird that you'd bring up the dog...my dad had a similiar issue with his dog. Somehow he decided it was the only one he was close to in his life and it's death was so painful he refused to ever let anyone else in. While I understand that concept as a CHILD...I think it's extremely selfish and "poor me" to try to carry those same issues as an adult."

I've said the very same thing about my W's sister and her "hanging on" to things said/done to her by her father when she was a child. They're like an excuse for her current behavior. And now, I realize I'm criticizing her as a surrogate for my W. Same problem there.

"My dad could have worked through that had he chosen to. How exactly did he think I was going to feel when he chose to commit suicide?"

I'm so sorry!

"His dog died because it was OLD...

I was actually told by someone when I was a kid that it's good to let kids have pets that live short lives, so they can get used to the fact that loved ones don't live forever. It was not long after my Horned Lizard had died that I was told this. I was torn up when that happened. Since, I had many pets, mostly fish, lizards, and birds, that didn't live long lives. I found that I could get closer to them KNOWING that it was "temporary", because distancing myself from them for a time out of my life could last MOST or even all of their own lives. Kind of like telling/showing your spouse you love them because you or they might get run over by a bus that afternoon.

I guess the point of this rambling is that I'd rather live with my heart on my sleeve and be vulnerable than to live with the regret of losing someone without the assurance that they "left" knowing that I love them.

"I want to live in the here and now where I make my own choices and am not a victim to others."

And I want to live with people that won't keep frustrations bottled up inside for so long that they trash years that could have been better.

"Sorry, the dog thing just kind of triggered me I guess."

Sorry for evoking the painful rememberies!

Sorry to interupt this great discussion, but I keep thinking to myself, "I don't know any ambivalent BS's."

LOL LOL LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Hope,

Your story is always very encouraging to me. I guess it's not over till you sign your name on the dotted line, and even then, we still have a chance. Thanks for the thread and reminder. I needed that.

After reading this thread yesterday I initiated a conversation with H about ambivolence.

I suggested "working" on M thru C'ing (H had 1st session w/Steve Monday but is not sure if he will do assignment or call back). I mentioned the can't clap with one hand thing.

H's response...I will not leave and throw this away because I know I will regret it in the future but right now its not where I'm at. But I am sure this is where I should be so I keep waiting for the future.

What does that mean? Any WS felt that way, any BS dealt with this? H is not the best on vebalizing feelings so I ask for any help in figuring out what is being said.

Oh he then said the future didn't look promising <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> because #1 I will never trust him again and #2 My family will never like him again.

I'm so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Very interesting thread we have going on here.

Sometimes I think that a WS doesn't really know just how critical it is for a BS to reach the ambivalent stage.

I mean, with being this way, at least in my case, since I am pretty much at the point of not caring which way it goes, I also seem to be at the point of not caring if she knows that or not. Think about it...If you really are "indifferent", then the situation is not so important that one would feel the need to get the point across.

That being said, my opinion is that LB'ers from the WS are greatly magnified while the BS is in this state. Also, things that are normally not LB'ers can be huge ones.

Case in point:

For the sake of argument, let's say that the lovebank for the WS was at 100, and then the BS is reaching the point of ambivalance. So...the LB$ is reduced by 1 per day that no progress is felt. So now, the WS makes unexpected foghorn noises to the BS (in my case, her showing signs for 3 days in a row). My LB$ has now "stalled" for a moment.

Now, POOF!...WS disappears into the darkness again. The "rollercoaster effect" then reduces the LB$ by 10 or so at once! The BS had reached a level of emotional "stability" so to speak, but the situation that I spoke of has taken that "stability" and "de-stabilized" it. Gaining that stability was very energy-consuming, not to mention time-consuming, now all of the "work" and "effort" that the BS has spent to reach that sense of security within themselves has tried to take them back into that downward spiral. Hence, the gravity of the LB'er. My WW would have probably been better served to leave well enough alone for the time being.

I now tend to see it as a selfish act on her part, again. Sort of the old saying that she doesn't want me, but is keeping me on the hook so no one else can, either.

In the early stages of the "turmoil" just after D-ay, a BS will more than likely see this as a LB$ deposit. After the emotional change when reaching the stage of "indifference", the tables are reversed. I don't think that WS's see this little bit of "timing factor", when trying to discover what it is exactly they want.

Sort of "One man's pleasure is another man's pain" thing. The thing being, we become different when we become "indifferent"...

Make sense?

HCII

hcii:

Makes sense to me. I know what you're talking about - 100%. EVEN though my W has never left.

Speaking of ambivalence:

Well, maybe this isn't so much a sign of ambivalence as it is detachment.

Yesterday, I made my first LB comment since I moved back home last month. And it wasn't even that much of a LB. My W had told me that she wasn't getting any email responses from Rat Meat after the CD he fedexed last week allegedly "got lost by fedex." I told her I didn't believe him. That was my LB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My W is leaving messages to her coworker on our ISP, showing that coworker is handling the communcation with Rat Meat, at least some of the time. Interestingly, coworker doesn't buy the "fedex lost it" story either. Even if they did, he could have snail mailed it by now, or fedexed it 8 more times by now!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I guess the detachment comes from me not really caring one way or the other what is happening with Rat Meat (though a not-so-small part of me wonders if Mrs. Meat trashed his computer files again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> - I've never used 5 grins before! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Seriously, I have gotten to the point that I want 2things:
One: I want my W to be happy.
2: I want 2long to be happy!

If these are mutually exclusive goals (like W needs Rat Meat's friendship to be happy), I want us to be happy by ourselves. If they aren't (like W can jettison Rat Meat with last week's watermellon rinds), I want us to be happy together. That's all. I'm not going to push, but I'm not going to be pushed, either.