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Joined: Oct 2001
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Well, in talking with my WW tonight, the topic of "forgiveness" came up. She admits that she's really trying hard to work on loving herself, but that she's still a long, long ways from finding ways to forgive herself. (Frankly, I think she's got to end the A first, but I'll leave that for now.)

She does feel and express a great deal of remorse for how she's hurt me... I asked her if she'd mind if I passed along some words of wisdom from others on the topic of forgiveness - and she not only agreed, but admitted that it showed a lot of loving concern <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So... what can any of you FWS's out there provide related to self-forgiveness, such as:

- Things that helped you
- A bit of your story maybe
- How the forgiveness process went for you
- Any other insights

She said she'd welcome it, so I'll package up the responses and pass them onto her... a promising sign!

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This section of "After the Affair" has a good piece on self-forgiveness for the BS and WS:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Forgiveness
From “After the Affair” – Janis Abrahms Spring, PhD
Learning to forgive p. 238 (Excerpts)

If your goal is reconciliation, forgiveness requires restitution. Forgiveness is a two-person process; you can’t forgive those who refuse to acknowledge and redress the harm they’ve caused you-you certainly can’t have a vital, intimate relationship with them.

“True forgiveness cannot be granted until the perpetrator has sought and earned it through confession, repentance, and restitution.” - Judith Lewis Herman

A partner who wants to be physically and psychologically connected to you must work to win forgiveness through specific concrete behaviors. Unearned forgiveness, like unrequited love, reinforces the assumption that it’s your job alone to stay attached, that your partner doesn’t need to share the burden of recovery. If you have even a shred of self-esteem, you’re likely to find this a dysfunctional notion.

“While reconciliation may be a desirable outcome, psychologically, forgiveness has to be earned. To forgive people who do not acknowledge the injury, or even worse, rationalize their injurious behavior as having been deserved (or justified), is to sustain the injury all over again.” Robert Lovinger (Clinical Psychologist) in “Religion and Counseling”

The truth is, however, that you, the hurt partner, won’t ever forget how you’ve been deceived, whether you forgive or not. Years later, you’ll still be able to recall the exact moment of the revelation, and all the gory details of the affair. You, the unfaithful one, are likely to want your partner to forgive and forget so that you can move on to a peaceful reconciliation, but you can’t rush the process. If you don’t attend to the damage you’ve caused, your partner probably will.

When you forgive, you don’t forget how you’ve been wronged, but you do allow yourself to stop dwelling on it. Your hurtful memories are likely to stay alive, but relegated to a corner of your mind. You continue to see the damage, but only as part of a picture that includes the loving times as well-the ones that remind you why you’ve chosen to stay together. The past may continue to sting, but it’s also likely to teach come important lessons and inspire you to do better.

Forgiving, in short, entails conscious forgetting, which Jungian analyst Clarissa Pinkola Estes describes as “refusing to summon up the fiery material…willfully dropping the practice of obsessing…, thereby living in a new landscape, creating anew life and new experiences to think about instead of the old ones.”

Unearned forgiveness is pseudo forgiveness. It’s something you grant, not because your partner deserves it, but because you feel pressured to, either by others or by romantic moralistic assumptions about what forgiveness means. Given rashly or prematurely, it buries the pain alive, and robs you and your partner of the chance to confront the lessons of the affair and properly redress each other’s wounds.

It is commonly assumed that forgiveness is not just a gift to your partner, but a gift to yourself, in service of your best self, and that it imbues you, the forgiver, with a sense of well-being, of psychological and physical health. By forgiving “you set a prisoner free, but you discover the real prisoner was yourself”.

The idea that forgiveness is categorically good for you is popular both with the general public and with professionals, but it hasn’t held up under study. In fact, it has been shown in some cases to be anti-therapeutic, spawning feelings of low self-worth in the person who forgives.
“A too ready tendency to forgive may be a sign that one lacks self-respect, and conveys-emotionally-either that we do not think we have rights or that we do not take our rights very seriously,” writes Jeffrie Murphy in “Forgiveness and resentment”. Murphy goes on to point out that a willingness to be a doormat for others reveals not love or friendship, but what psychiatrist Karen Horney calls “morbid dependency.” My own clinical experience confirms that unearned forgiveness is no cure for intimate wounds; that it merely hides them under a shroud of smiles and pleasantries, and allows them to fester.
You may have been taught by family or religious leaders that forgiveness is a redemptive act-a form of self-sacrifice that good people make to their enemies. By forgiving, you demonstrate your compassion and innocence, and preserve, or create, an image of yourself as a martyr or saint.
Forgiveness by itself, however, is not admirable-unless, of course, you believe that silencing yourself and denying yourself a just solution is admirable. What you consider magnanimity may in fact be nothing but a way of asserting your moral superiority over your partner and freeing yourself from your own contributions to the affair. What you see as self-sacrifice may serve the larger purpose of putting your partner under your control, under a debt of gratitude that can never be fully repaid.

The problem with expedient forgiveness-forgiveness granted without any attitudinal or emotional change towards the offender-is that it’s likely over time to exacerbate feelings of depression and grief, and feed an underlying aggression toward your partner. Those who forgive too quickly tend to interact with false or patronizing sweetness, punctuated by sarcasm or overt hostility. The result is a relationship ruled by resentment, petty squabbles, numbness, surface calm, and self-denial- a relationship lacking both in vitality and authenticity.

A patient named Pat modeled expedient forgiveness when she put her husband’s affair behind her long before the two of them had examined its meaning and put it to rest. “I know Henry never stopped loving me,” she told me. “I don’t need him to beg for my pardon.” Eight years later, however, though Henry never strayed again, they were still stumbling over trust and intimacy issues.

As I’ve said, “making nice” settles nothing. If you want to pave the way for genuine forgiveness, you can’t sweep what happened under the table. You need your partner to understand your pain, feel remorse, apologize, and demonstrate a commitment to rebuilding the relationship. To heal, you need to forgive, but your partner must apply salve to your wounds, first.

Self-Forgiveness
In addition to forgiving your partner for wronging you, you should consider forgiving yourself for the wrongs you’ve inflicted on your partner, your family, and yourself.
For you, the hurt partner, these wrongs might include:

• Being overly naïve, trusting too blindly, ignoring your suspicions about your partner’s infidelity;
• Blaming yourself too harshly for your partner’s betrayal;
• Tolerating or making excuses for your partner’s unacceptable behavior to preserve your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you felt un-entitled to more;
• Hurting and degrading yourself for making unfair comparisons between yourself and the lover;
• Feeling so desperate to win your partner back that you acted in ways that humiliated you-in front of the lover, your family, your friends;
• Losing your sense of self; losing sight of what you value in yourself;
• Putting your kids in the middle by needing them to support you, love you, and take your side against the other parent;
• Being so upset by the affair that you weren’t there for your children;
• Isolating yourself unnecessarily; trying so hard to protect the feelings of your children and parents that you cut yourself off from their support;
• Contributing to your partner’s dissatisfaction at home (for example, by failing to take your partner’s grievances seriously; getting buried in your career or in the needs of your children; being too critical, unavailable, or needy).

You, the unfaithful partner, should consider forgiving yourself for:

• Feeling so needy, so entitled to get your needs met, that you violated your partner;
• Exposing your partner-the person you love, the parent of your children-to a life-threatening disease.
• Blaming your partner for your dissatisfaction, without realizing how your own misperceptions, misbehavior, and unrealistic expectations compromised your relationship;
• Developing attitudes that justified your deception and minimized the significance of your actions;
• Failing to confront your partner with your essential needs; acting in ways that blocked your partner from satisfying them;
• Having unrealistic ideas about mature love that rendered you incapable of tolerating disenchantments in your relationship;
• Having such poorly developed concepts of self and love that you didn’t know how to create and sustain intimacy, or feel satisfied in a committed relationship;
• Inflicting chaos on your children, family, and friends.

No matter how your partner may have contributed to your unhappiness at home, you, the unfaithful partner, are solely responsible for your deception, and need to forgive yourself for the harm you’ve cause by violating your covenant of trust. You may also want to forgive yourself for the hurt you’ve caused your children. This may be an easier task if you can teach them through your own example that two people who love each other can make mistakes, take responsibility for them, and work together to renew their lives together.
It may help you and your partner to forgive yourselves if you learn to accept yourselves as fallible, erring human beings-conditioned, confused, struggling to make the most of a life you neither fully understand nor control. Self-forgiveness doesn’t relieve you of responsibility for your words or actions, but it may release you from self-contempt and from a “crippling sense of badness” that makes you believe “I can’t do better.” With self-forgiveness, you bring a gentle compassion to your understanding of who you are and why you acted the way you did, and reclaim what you most value in yourself.

To “forgive and forget” is just a popular saying. Forgiving and forgetting are two completely different notions, and rarely go together in the real world.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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When and how was I able to forgive myself? It was somewhat simple really. When I started living in ACTION what I was saying. You have to be true to yourself and honest with yourself or forgiveness is darn near impossible, because how can you respect someone who constantly lies to you? (and YES, that includes YOURSELF) I never trusted myself because I'd let MYSELF down so many times. I thought it was because I wasn't strong enough or just couldn't do anything right.

WS's (myself included) often make the statements "I didn't mean to hurt you", "I never WANTED this to happen", "I'm not a bad person!". But yet their actions continue, EVEN WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that they ARE in fact hurting someone and wanting more and are treating others badly. How could you respect yourself when you continue to do that which you know is wrong?

That was step one...I started working my butt off to live responsibly and stopped making excuses for myself. If I did do something irresponsible, I no longer blamed that on someone else or the situation or any other justification that came my way...I simply looked myself in the eye and admitted that I MYSELF chose to be weak.

With time and self reflection I was able to forgive my H for his part in the decline in our marriage. My H never did anything to me or neglected me with the intent to do so. He's only human, just as I, and this IS his first marriage. The true discord in our marriage was NOT due to his unintentional neglect or naivity...it was due SOLELY to my decision to forget about the "commitment" part of the wedding vows and turn to someone else.

Wow, that's quite a load to bare, huh? How on EARTH does one forgive themselves something of that magnitude? Not only did I selfishly ignore our vows of commitment and fidelity, but I also did the most horrible thing imaginable to me...I vengefully hurt someone I care about. I was sooo angry. I said things to hurt my H, I did things to hurt my H. I wanted him to HURT!! And I said things like "now you know how it feels". Hardly...neglect hurts, but having the most important person in your life PURPOSLY hurt you is far more devestating. I'm still very ashamed at how I lashed out.

So why did I even DESERVE to be forgiven? Well, for one thing I DID see the error in my ways. I didn't continue to try to justify my actions, past or present, and I didn't continue the actions themselves! I apologized to my H many times and let him know that the things I had said were out of pure anger and pain, and not true. He was not the reason for our marriage not working. And...like my H...I AM only human and have never been faced with the challenges that our marriage faced before. It's not like I didn't learn from some past experiences...we HAD no past experiences. This was our first marriage...H and I had no good marital role models growing up...we took no "marital 101" classes. I am human, I am fallible. I made terrible terrible errors in judgment. I screwed up BIG TIME. I admit that, and I LEARNED from that.

I am usually very quick to forgive others...but it did take quite a bit of time for me to forgive myself. Before I could I had to face the reality of what I'd done...and I was very very sick when that realization hit. I cried for days and hated myself for a while. I guess that might just be when I learned the art of self soothing. No one external in my life could have understood. At best I could have gotten an empathetic hug...but most of my friends would also have followed it up with that look. You know, that look that says, well...what did you expect? So I decided to keep it to myself and get through it myself. Probably the first time in my life I'd really taken care of myself emotionally without running to some external thing to soothe me. I didn't need to drink, I didn't need to find a party, I didn't need a friends sympathetic ear or my H...I just needed to cry and think and talk with myself for a while.

After that, I felt stronger....and wiser. I vowed to MYSELF not to get myself in to a situation like this blindly and foolishly again. And I decided that a promise to MYSELF should be important enough to keep. If you can't keep promises to yourself, why on earth would you expect others to??

So then the next task was to gain some control of my emotions. Up to that point my emotions had run the show. I felt "victim" to them. Like I had to do whatever I felt because otherwise I would be "denying" myself in some way. I came to realize that emotions come and go...how you choose to act is just that...a choice. It wasn't easy...being on my own, stressed out, often lonely, financially struggling and parenting a 2 yr old...my emotions came like floods at times. The desire to run away and leave it all...the desire to find my "white knight" to take me away and make it all better...and the desire to run back to my H and ask if we could just forget it all and have our life back. I just let the emotions wash over me and continued to do the daily responsible things I needed to do.

With time I found myself feeling stronger and stronger as I became the RULER of my emotions. Actually, to the point I almost lost my marriage!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Because I'd become so accustomed to riding out thoughts and emotions that when I had them for my marriage or my H...I just rode them out! I'd become comfortable living on my own and I knew I could make it. It wasn't until my H was moving on and we were almost divorced that I realized I really DID still love my H and that our having a marriage that worked for both of us was a CHOICE!!! I was extrememly lucky he gave me the chance to show him I was ready to put my money where my mouth was. No more "lets see how it goes" or "can we just try dating" or "well I love you but I think we're just different". Hubby said to me "you're either married to me or you aren't". I decided to be his wife!! He moved me back in shortly thereafter. Comfort factor aside....either we were commited to making it work and were both going to jump in feet first, or we would go back to piddling along trying to remain safe and comfortable and SURE.

So...I rambled a bit, eh? I guess in conclusion I would say for me forgiveness came with the realization of my wrongdoing and the promise to myself to learn from it and not follow that path again...the realization that I wasn't slave to my emotions and was not destined to confusion and pain because of them...and the action I took to become responsible and mature. I also did a lot of educating of myself. I read a lot and found a message board where I got opinions and information from people who had been there and had taken the RIGHT road...not from those who were stuck in the same spot I was. It's unfortunate when people just stick together to commisserate. I wanted progress...not just company in the pit. I was finally able to get a realistic picture of marriage...and lose the disney fairytale I had in my mind.

This newest song by Alanis Morisette hits it RIGHT ON in my opinion:

Alanis Morissette - Precious Illusions

You'll rescue me, right?
In the exact same way they never did
I'll be happy, right?
When your healing powers kick in

You'll complete me, right?
Then my life can finally begin
I'll be worthy, right?
Only when you realize the gem I am?

But this won't work now the way it once did
And I won't keep it up even though I would love to
Once I know who I'm not, then I'll know who I am
I know I won't keep on playing the victim

These precious illusions in my head
Did not let me down when I was defenseless
And parting with them
Is like parting with invisible best friends

This ring will help me yet
As will you, knight in shining armor
This pill will help me yet
As will these boys gone through like water

But this won't work as well as the way it once did
'Cause I want to decide between survival and bliss
And though I know who I'm not, I still don't know who I am
But I know I won't keep on playing the victim

These precious illusions in my head
Did not let me down when I was a kid
And parting with them
Is like parting with a childhood best friend

I've spent so long firmly looking outside me
I've spent so much time living in survival mode

This won't work as well as the way it once did
'Cause I want to decide between survival and bliss
And though I know who I'm not, I still don't know who I am
But I know I won't keep on playing the victim

These precious illusions in my head
Did not let me down when I was defenseless
And parting with them
Is like parting with invisible best friends

These precious illusions in my head
Did not let me down when I was a kid
And parting with them
Is like parting with a childhood best friend


Forgiveness didn't just come...it took work. Self reflection, education, counseling, being truthful with myself, getting realistic expectations, and living in action the beliefs I had. Nothing, in my opinion, comes without work. You can wait forever for things to change or to "feel" right or for the answers to drop in your lap...and it doesn't happen. I almost lost out on the life I really wanted because I continued to wait and see. I was sooo lucky to have the second chance. I would have made a good life for myself had my H chosen NOT to take me back as his wife...but I guarantee I would have always had regrets.

And in conclusion....what was the question again??? LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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SC-

How does forgiveness work when BOTH partners were at one time BS AND WS? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by doogie:
<strong>SC-

How does forgiveness work when BOTH partners were at one time BS AND WS? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">D;
I haven't the slightest idea! I just posted a quote from a book that I found enlightening and useful.

I presume that in some ways when both partners have done the same things to each other, there may be a way for both to accept and forgive each other. In some ways it could be easier than when it is one partner who did the straying...? Mutual acceptance of each other's mistakes?

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Something simple that helped me in the time of not forgiving self. You see, I have struggled with that. I do forgive at times, but other times the pain is so great that I hate myself and have a hard time with that forgiveness.

One time my DH and I had a conversation about this. I was talking about not liking myself (which I believe goes hand in hand with forgivness), and he asked what he could do to help. I looked at him with tears in my eyes and said "I just need to know it's OK to not like myself." He smiled softly, reached a hand out to me and said, "it's ok." Then, before I could say anything he added, "but I still like you." It helped tremendously.

See, if we know that for now it's ok, we can begin to ALLOW it to happen instead of trying to force it to. This helped me the most, just knowing it was ok.

Hope it helps. My best to you both. Take care!

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I am still in the process of self forgivness but I am well on my way. My H and I have been talking to the minister at our church and he told me how to do deep breathing exercises.

Basically you just find a nice quiet place and breath deeply then envision all of your problems or whatever it is that is bothering you and imagine that it is being wrapped up in your breath and then breath it away. Believe me, it does wonders. I do it as needed.

Also he gave me a book that a former minister and friend of his at our church wrote. I am attaching a link to Borders.com, you can buy it from them. Learning to Fall. It's a really good book and pretty easy to read. The guy who wrote it looks at life in a lighthearted sort of way, it is not at all heavy. I really enjoyed it and it helped me a lot.

Tell your wife from me not to be so hard on herself. We are all only human after all!
1step <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


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