H and I went for our first MC session last night, and it was just a disaster.

H was soooo angry again and just going on and on. Even when the MC asked me a question he would interupt and I couldn't finish. When she said to him "Since you've been back BS, have you listened to your wife?" I thought he would go crazy. Afterwards he said "What was that gubbins about?", but clearly that's how he's coming across, and that's how I feel. I told him I don't want to whine on about how marvellos the A was or OM, but just to have him listen without picking on everything I say. When we got home, he said that was nonsense too, he has been listening (yet he accussed me of not communicating 2 nights ago, huummm wonder why that was? Partly, I can't get a word in edgeways, and partly because anything I say is pounced on and can't do or say right for doing wrong)

On top of that he said he will not accept in any shape, form or fashion what I have said about him not being there for me since January this year. He says "I have always listened to you, supported you, given you advice, been there for you, the only thing that I did was to go to Germany and leave you. You cannot say these things were an excuse to have an A." I have told him that nothing is an excuse to have an A, but this is how I felt at the time - he didn't give me the support that OM was giving me - this is total rubbish to him and completely unacceptable.

Also, the MC asked me "Did OM meet your SN and EN". I had to be honest and answer that at the time, yes he was meeting my needs. This again send H into overdrive. I wanted to lie, because I knew he wouldn't like it, but what's the point of lying?

We came back from the session with H barely speaking to me. When I asked if he wasn't going to speak to me for the rest of the evening he said "There's no point". When we got in he picked up the local newspaper and started reviewing flats to let - he has made an appointment to see one tonight, and took both the local papers to work with him today. He has told me that he is going to move out and will have no contact with me as there is no point. He is too angry and needs space and thinks the problem is too big to get over. On top of that, he says he will have no contact with me. When we spoke to the MC about moving apart, she said "In my experience, if couples move apart, they generally separate on a permanent basis". H knows this, but just seems incapable of getting past the anger to try and hold our M together.

So what do I do now? Last night he was acting like a stranger around the house, and this morning he went to work and wasn't even going to kiss me goodbye until I called him back. I told him I do not want him to move out. He has again reiterated that he is not willing to work at things for six months to a year - he wants to meet someone else who will love him for him and fulfil his SN and EN rather than wait for me to get back to that. Frankly, I feel like I am moving closer and closer to the edge, and if he goes, I may at least still have my sanity.....

Please help me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your husband is reacting in exactly the same way as I would have.... if I didn't find this site.
He seems to be emotionally pretty illiterate (as most men are, as I was), not knowing about basic concepts. He has to get clued up - he should do some reading, and then digesting it. During this phase, there's maybe not much you can do - but he has to understand basic concepts such as ENs, how affairs can happen, what the timetable of affairs is etc.
Otherwise he just acts according to the "angry husband cliche" which leads down the path of destruction and bitterness.
Give him some books, tell him to read the stuff on this site. Maybe that will spark some interesting discussions.

It's not so easy Nick. My H is actually a really clued up fella, and one that has never had any problem in expressing himself emotionally. When he is rational (not too often), he understands things like the concept of withdrawal, but he just does not accept that he was not supporting me wholeheartedly, and that whatever I felt was not enough of a reason to have an A.

He is adamant that he will move out. He is still persisting at looking at the flat tonight.

The other thing he said last night was "It will be funny for you to be without either of us" and I said to him that I am not scared to be alone, but I would rather try and see if we can work things out or not. Do you think he is Plan Bing without realising it, or is he just really p***ed off with me and wants out?

I don't know how long I can keep trying. JL mentioned to me about biting your tongue not being about LBing, but he is just doing it constantly. Of course it makes me think, what's the point, I would be better off by myself and then I think, well is it my negative attitude? Should I have lied to him last night and the MC - is that the best way forward at the moment? Can't see that it is, but it may stop the angry outbursts.
HELP!!!

Dear Lisa:

I am sorry your H is reacting like this. However, this is still very early in the game. Can you at least say to him "Look this is a lot on both our plates right now. Let's take an in house cooling off period to get to know each other for a bit. We have been apart for 2 years here". Try to not dwell on the A for a while. Maybe have set time to discuss it not when tired or nervous. Allow each other to end the conversation when too tense and come back to it.

Negativity can be shown in body language inflection so many different ways. Are you showing your attitude that this will not work and your H is reacting to this? He may see this in you and is reacting loudly to be the first to end it in an attempt to preserve his dignity.

Just a thought.

All my best to you.

Jack

Lisa,

Ok! Let's calm down here a bit, shall we. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

First, your comment about him not supporting you in Jan. That was about the time your affair started right? It was probably also true that you had already met OM, but perhaps weren't to the affair stage but some comparisons were going on, am I close?? Now the problem isn't your honesty, or how you felt. What you are missing is how your H is hearing this. He hears this "reason" as an excuse. Blame shifting on him, as if the affair were his fault.

I am certain that isn't what you meant, but I would bet that is what he heard. This is part of his defensiveness. He is very very hurt and he is very very defensive. This will go on for awhile, but it will subside. My point is that communications has to be simple and clear. If you had added the preamble to your statement that you are not blaming him or seeking excuses BUT you felt... This will help.

What I am saying is to sort of use the old dictum for giving a good speech. "Tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, and the tell them what you told them." Communications is crucial and am certain it hasn't been the best for many years. You are as much at fault for that as he.

I do think you over estimate his ability to express, delineate, and analyze his emotions. He is hurting and the best he can do is yell. I somehow suspect that isn't his norm mode of expression. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> One thing you do know now is that he does have feelings for you, that he can show his emotions, and that he is hurt. He is having a hard time with the images in his mind of you and OM together intimately. He is having a hard time with the lies. He is very much like most of the BS's here. I would bet that most wanted to run from the problem. Yet, many do come back and try to rebuild.

I would not give up on this Lisa,but I understand your ambivalence because of your feelings for OM. I again I would emphasize that time is a good thing. You cannot control him nor can you "educate" him, any more than he could have "educated" you out of having the affair or the feelings you have for OM. You see in many ways you are just like him, but you are simply further along. You both have to heal and you both WILL heal with time.

So my recommendation is to go slow, give it time, don't try to educate him. If you have received the books you ordered then definitely read SAA.

But, also realize how "fog" bound he is. He won't work on this for 6 months, so he is going out and find someone that will love him. Lisa, that isn't going to happen in 6 months unless he pays her. He isn't going to be worth being around for 6 months so he might as well work on things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Give it time. He won't get over what has happened to him for years, especially if he runs from you and doesn't try to sort things out. A new woman or girl won't help and surely will have problems with him.

But, in the meantime you need to address the sex issue. Why was your sex life with him so bad before he left for Germany? Why was it that you had no attraction to him but had no problems with OM? These are issues YOU need to address because if there is to be any hope of this eventually (not right now) you are going to have view him differently than you did even before he left. In fact, I would bet that was one of the reasons he took the job. He felt you didn't care and surely it wasn't going to hurt his sex life.

Let me guess did the OM have issues with his W about sex??

I must go, but Lisa if you read here for long you will realize that most of what has happened isn't too far out of line. Things and people can change, and your H will gradually return to being the person he was. So will you. The only issue will be whether either or both of you will takes these very very hard lessons and learn from them.

Must go,

God Bless,

JL

Jack, you are right about my attitude - when he shouts at me, I close down. I must try harder, but I still have this preservation instinct. BS is out looking at the flat now. He has said he will pay cash up front for six months - he will not feel any better, he will not go to MC with me etc. etc. We were offered a couple of cancellation appointments, and he has refused point blank. He is using a different track now - "I left you by yourself, you were resentful, you got angry with me, you didn't tell me you had A". He accepts that per se, but says why bother trying to find anything else out....At least we were a little calmer tonight.

JL - wrong about when I met OM!! First time you've been wrong though. I had only met him in passing in November and didn't really like him that much, wish it had stayed that way..... I met him in February, so no the comparisons really didn't start then.

"He isn't going to be worth being around for 6 months so he might as well work on things." (Sorry, can't do the quote thing!)
JL are you saying I should let him go and live in this apartment if he gets it?!!?!?!? Doesn't that go against the grain of everything on here? Maybe I misunderstood you.

I know I need to address the S issue - in my heart of hearts I know what it was about, but how can you change how you feel about yourself? This is a bit cryptic, but I am thinking about. Sorry, this is something I'm not quite ready to divulge.

I do keep reading everything, and I am so grateful to everyone, but I don't know how to fight him if he's not willing to be fought for.....

Thank you all.

"He isn't going to be worth being around for 6 months so he might as well work on things." JL are you telling me I should let him go?!?!? Also, first thing you have been wrong about, I didn't meet OM until February - January was just a particularly hard month.

Jack, you are right about my attitude. I know I go into self preservation mode when he gets angry because I don't know what else to do. Now he is saying "I wasn't there for you, I went away, you resent that, you got down, didn't tell me, had A - what else do I need to work out?" He has refused to go for another session of MC although we were offered a cancellation. He has said that if the flat is any good tonight, he will pay cash up front for six months and just go. How can I stop him? I know I am uncertain Jack, you are right there, but I don't want him to move out, this will be the beginning of the end.

JL you are right about S though. I do know in my heart of hearts what it was about - I just have to work out now how to put it right..... Is hard though and can't quite share that here... OM - sure his poor W wasn't meeting his SN - let's face it poor woman is stuck at home with 4 kids under the age of 10 (DOH!!!! must keep reminding myself stuff like that)

I am sooooo sad that he won't think about staying and trying, I just have to keep working on it, but what do I say when he comes back. I have asked him if he will read SAA and he has said yes, I just hope it isn't too late.

Thank you all, please keep posting and giving me advice, because I don't know how long I can keep going on for.....

Lisa,

If you trust me on nothing else, trust me on this: I have and will be wrong a lot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

One sits at a computer and can only guess and surmise so much. But, the purpose of the guess right or wrong is to obtain more information.

As for the 6 months comment, I didn't mean to let him go necessarily. What I meant is if he thinks that he cannot wait six months and can move on with his life in that time he is wrong. It will take him six months or much more to process this, and if he had a brain he would at least see if this could be worked out. He can certainly do some stupid things within 6 months, he can make some bad judgements and decisions, and he probably will if he tries to make ANY life altering decisions right now.

My take on this is that he might as well calm down, and see how you evolve and how he evolves with this thing. He might just be surprised as well you might be.

I don't know if you confide to him what we say here, but you can tell him from me, he is a complete fool if he makes ANY decisions right now. THis is the worst possible time to make any decisions.

I recognize he is hurt, and hurt all the more because of the level of intimacy between you before he left and apparently when you two visited. To find out you could be passionate with another man and not him, is something that is very very hard for a man to take. Plus, he has been divorced before correct? I am sure this whole thing is bringing up baggage from the experience as well?

All the more reason for him to let things calm down before deciding anything.

The advice for him is the same for you. You shouldn't be making any serious decisions right now. Just hang in there, after all you ARE STILL MARRIED, and watch things evolve.

You haven't mentioned the children. How are they taking things right now? I hope that both of you have done your best to reassure them that they will not be forgotten in this mess.

Must go Lisa. Time and Patience, that is the watch word.

God Bless,

JL

Sorry about the double post, my pc was having a funny five minutes and kept shutting down. I couldn't remember what I'd said, and had to keep re-typing!

Anyway, JL was only teasing - you have been right about so much. I talked to BS last night and think that is what I actually tried to put into words - why make a decision now when everything is so new, why would it be better to be somewhere else, you don't know that it would, that may just make it much worse for you. I think, like me, he wants to escape the anger and the pain, and feels that if he does not have to look at me reminding him all the time it will be easier. Maybe I told him, but may be not, may make it worse.

He has said he will think about it and make a decision today when the people need to know by. He also said that he did not want to go to MC to be hurt anymore. I thought this was probably a big reason, but when the MC asked me if OM had been meeting my needs and I knew it would hurt him, he agreed this last night - doesn't need to hear me say it. I wish I could have lied but what's the point in that.

Well, I guess he'll let me know later what he is doing. I am also really concerned that financially if he moves out this will be a disaster for him and get him into debt. Accommodation in London is not cheap.

Will keep you posted.

Forgot a couple of things....

The kids are doing well. YSD has been staying here with us all week. I have been spending quite a bit of time with her and she enjoys that. She made a comment about her D yesterday and I just said "He's just a bit sad sometimes" - she knows things are not easy, but is doing OK.

ESD has been on holiday in Tenerife and comes back tomorrow morning. I spoke to her yesterday and she has had a really nice time, so she is fairly upbeat.

I haven't shared most things with him from here, because he has this really big issue about my communication with my two friends when the A was going on, even communicating with strangers he is not too happy about at the moment. He knows I read info and post here, but he doesn't know much detail. As I say, because of the situation of the friends and how he found out, he is not keen on me discussing our relationship or him with anyone else, even a message board......

Good news!!

Something I said to BS sunk in and he has decided NOT to take the appartment. I obviously reassured him enough. I said that, we are both unsure about whether or not this can work, but we need time together to decide this. Is it any wonder that he feels so hurt when it is such early days etc.? I also know that financially he would worry about taking a flat. I used that too (hope that wasn't bad of me), but said, even if he saves some money in the next six months being here, at least then he wouldn't overburden himself if things don't work out and he moves out....

So, am going to give him SAA to read this weekend and try and persuade him to go to the cancelled MC session next week. I now know why he was so angry, so at least that's something we can bring up with the MC.

Am hoping for a more peaceful weekend, but watch this space.....

Lisa,

That is good news, very good news. I think it is a sign that the edge is wearing off just a bit. It will still go up and down, and don't even think that things will be better for awhile. They will go up and down, but if you both are patient I think that you will see a gradual trend toward more up than down. It takes months Lisa, it really does.

I think you did just the right thing with regard to talking with him. He really doesn't know which way is up, but the fact that you wanted him to stay helped more than perhaps you realized.

Lisa, I am no expert on this stuff, but I have been reading and posting here a long time. There is a man that posts here occasionally now, but is what I think is the one person that truely understand this approach. He goes by K.

If I can find his story I will post it to you, but let me give you a brief synopsis.

His W had an affair, he plan A'd, the affair continued, he went to plan B, the affair continued. One day he calls the children (he had two) and W is a mess. He guess right away. She is pregnant with OM's child. You know how he viewed this?? She needed help. She needed his help, and this was an OPPORTUNITY to rebuild his marriage. Remarkable, just remarkable.

What you need to realize is that you have an OPPORTUNITY to rebuild and remake your marriage into one that you really enjoy, and your H enjoys. That is why I counsel patience and time. As your H heals from this terrible event, he will be looking critically at the marriage, and if he decides to make a go of it, he will try and make it better. If you are there, prepared and ready, the two of you can rebuild and remake this marriage into something very special.

Look at it this way. After what he knows about you, and what you have done, do either of you think that you won't be able to approach each other and talk about ANY topic under the sun?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Affairs are devastating, but they do have a way of blasting communications roadblocks right out of the system. Think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: With regard to MC, I think you need to put this in a positive light. You have done a very bad thing and made a poor decision. There are many things he needs to hear from you, that will hurt, but will answer important questions for him. Things he will need to know in order to make an intelligent decision. Doing it with an MC present well help this process and hopefully protect each of you. I would talk with the MC if were you, and explain your H's reluctance. Right now it seems to him it is a place where the main purpose is to hurt him.

He did feel very accused when he found out you felt he hadn't met your needs. This is tough stuff to hear, especially when dealing with an affair, but he needs to hear it. He also needs some reinforcement, such as you still made the decision, that wasn't his fault.

<small>[ August 23, 2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Thanks JL for being there. What is your story and what made you so clever eh?!?!?!? Funny I read your posts to other people too, and you always pick up on something.

Anyway, as I say, let's just hope for a calmer weekend. It has been a little difficult to talk much with YSD being here, but hopefully we can have more of a chance at the latter part of the weekend. It is a bank holiday here on Monday (we get loads in the UK), so perhaps if the weather is good we can plan to do something nice together. Hope he might agree.

Watch this space...

(Perhaps I should change me name to WTS!!)

Thanks JL for being there. What is your story and what made you so clever eh?!?!?!? Funny I read your posts to other people too, and you always pick up on something.

Anyway, as I say, let's just hope for a calmer weekend. It has been a little difficult to talk much with YSD being here, but hopefully we can have more of a chance at the latter part of the weekend. It is a bank holiday here on Monday (we get loads in the UK), so perhaps if the weather is good we can plan to do something nice together. Hope he might agree.

Watch this space...

(Perhaps I should change my name to WTS!!)

Oops, double post again, can't always get the knack of this...