Hi everybody out there!
My best friend has been married for 22 years to a raging alcoholic. He is unemployed, disabled from drinking, will not eat, bathe or leave the house except to buy beer. He is on Paxil and another anti-depressant, yet continues his drinking and stares into space all day which he calls "deep thought."
Well long story short, her first husband shows up on-line, and they have begun an affair. While he is not exactly perfect himself, at least he is taking her out and showing her a "much needed" good time. His major downside is his propensity to start affairs and leave his current love after 5 years or so. (Which he did to my friend all those years ago, btw)
She is devasted by her current husbands drinking, has gone to Alanon and staunchly disagrees with their tactics; and is finally seeing some of the outside world with her new lover/exhusband.
What can she do? She is asking me for advice, and I've told her to follow her "true" gut feeling. She says her "true" gut is saying a million things at once. I don't want her to hurt anymore than necessary or make a horrid mistake.
Any Advice?

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>

Wow,

I fear she is jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

A long time ago I was married to a similar alcoholic, so I know what it's like....I;ve lived it too. It's still no excuse to have an affair.

Her ex doesn't sound like anyone worth emotionally investing in with a history like his.

I don't think she should be involved with either man. But having attended many many alonon/AA type functions and seen many people in her position; she's probably not ready to hear this. Sadly some women were never able to escape/walk-out of their situation.

So that's my .02 cents! She needs to focus on why she is willing to be treated this way by these men. She needs individual counseling desperately. Your position is difficult being her friend. I am sure you want to support her. The trick is to not enable her in her current behavior. CSue

^^^^^^^
bump!

I agree with CSue. She is just compounding her problems getting into an affair. And no matter how bad he is, it doesn't justify an affair. I don't agree she should use her feelings to make a decision, she needs to be using some good judgement based on logic and reason for a change. Her poor judgement - probably based on her feelings, no doubt - got her into this mess and the last [previous relationship] and is getting her into a NEW and exciting mess! Some good common sense and sanity is badly needed here!

Before she starts a new mess, she might want to clean this one up first by attending some Alanon meetings. And it might turn out that she decides to leave her alcoholic husband. However, please assure her that having an affair will NOT solve her current marital problems.

I probably have more questions than answers but here goes ....

My best friend has been married for 22 years to a raging alcoholic. He is unemployed, disabled from drinking, will not eat, bathe or leave the house except to buy beer. He is on Paxil and another anti-depressant, yet continues his drinking and stares into space all day which he calls "deep thought."

Why does she stay? No, I mean why does she really stay? Love? Obligation? In sickness and health? Fear? Fear of? Denial?

She is devasted by her current husbands drinking, has gone to Alanon and staunchly disagrees with their tactics;

What specifically about alanon doesn't she like?What tactics? How often has she gone? It took me 15 years of going in and out of alanon to "get it". (not everyone takes that long) Alanon may not be what she thinks it is. WH is alcoholic and addict.

and is finally seeing some of the outside world with her new lover/exhusband.

After going through what she has, the outside would would look mighty good. I don't blame her for wanting that, there may be better ways to get her needs met than having an A.

She says her "true" gut is saying a million things at once

She needs alanon whether she knows it or not.

She may be going from the pan into the fire. It's always best to deal with present issues, work through them and then move on if it is the right decision. People tend to make the same mistakes over and over because they never really grew and healed.

I also have a good friend in a horrible M (alcoholic, drugs...), left her H for her lover. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes seeing what she is really getting out of life. (or not getting)

My H was doing the same kind of things, but I chose to see if M would work. I didn't seek out anyone and just let the hurt flow. It has been painful and lonley. But now I feel that when the time is right, I will be a better partner for it.
I have tried my best fo follow God's lead.

Ultimately the choice is up to your friend but it sounds like she doesn't have a good set of criteria in which to make the decision. Thats where Alanon can help I believe.

God bless,

D.

"Why does she stay?"

...She feels obligated to her husband for being there for her while she recovered from an abusive childhood and being abandoned by her first husband/current lover.

"What specifically about alanon doesn't she like?What tactics? How often has she gone?"

...She feels that it is wrong to force an alcoholic into treatment, and that the "intervention" plans are wrong. She went a couple times, if that.

Unfortunately, she's been fantasizing about her first husband daily for the last 2 decades. When he found her (he's in a relationship, of course, but not married) on-line, she couldn't believe her luck.

The way she relates her dilema to me is:
If she leaves her current husband, she will feel horrible for leaving him now when he needs her the most.

However, the thought of spending her years alone after he dies/while he dies of alcoholism is terrible considering that she now has a chance to be with her x, who has proposed.

I've read the MB site back and forth; I found it when helping my own M.

Dr. Harley never tells people to consider leaving thier current spouse, except I did find mention of exeption where if you have children with the other and none with SO.

And, he does say that alcoholics are NOT able to have normal relationship because their first concern is their addiction.

And that's why I'm having a hard time giving her any advice. I know Dr. Harley has helped me a lot, but this is pretty complex....

Thanks again for all the help, I'll pass on advice to her.

bleberryskies,

The new addition of the Lovebusters book has information on this subject (maybe a whole chapter). There are stories that go along with it that tell how people applied the principles in their lives.

Basically, Harley says that you can't work on an M until the person has stopped using. ( I wholeheartedly agree) In my case Harley recommended separating (will be filing for legal separation)

IMHO I think your friend is jumping out of a relationship rather than going TO an relationship. Believe me I can understand her desire to live a fulfilling life.

Why did she and her x dv?

What specifically about alanon doesn't she like?What tactics? How often has she gone?"

She feels that it is wrong to force an alcoholic into treatment, and that the "intervention" plans are wrong. She went a couple times, if that.

I've not had that experience with Alanon. I did do an intervention on my HW 10 years ago & he agreed to go to treatment. He didn't stay sober and now is in a downward spiral.

What I found in alanon lately is that I am working on relationships. Years of living with an alcoholic has wore me down. I've been seeing in the alanon rooms and experiencing myself that I can take of the pair of glasses that I have been wearing and look at the situation more clearly. I want the kind of serenity that I see in the rooms.

I know I have harped on alanon and it may not seem revelent to where she is now, but I believe it is.

God Bless,

D.

What about a consultation with one of the Harley's?

I could never applaud some one for having an affair. It does sound as though her marriage is misrable.
The ex doesn't sound like his values have changed as he is involved with a married woman. How long before he'd cheat after marriage again?

WGTT - Her first husband just left one day after being married a short while. Supposedly it was a mistake or some kind of comedy of errors. The facts are disputed. He says he just went out of town and when he came back she was gone. She says he left, and when he didn't come back, she went back to live at her parents house.

<small>[ August 27, 2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>

In the Al-Anon meetings that I have attended over the last 4 years, I have never ever seen even one intervention encouraged.

If anything, interventions are discouraged. The main concept behind Al-Anon is to keep the focus on your self, your own life, your own responsbilities and learn how to draw boundaries that show respect for yourself. The healthiest meetings that I have been in are the ones that barely even mention the alcoholics in our lives.

I mean, seriously geez, I have 084230948230 alcoholics in my life. I'd be there all night talking if I was talking about how to get them to stop drinking. Its a whole lot easier to talk about how I can find happiness, peace, joy and serenity in my life regardless of the alcoholic's choices.

Just because someone is an alcoholic does not mean that its ok to cheat. If she wants the other guy, then she needs to divorce her husband before moving on the next one.

The logic here is just plain old typical WS logic. "My spouse is AWFUL so I need to have an affair to heal my wounds and learn to live after all that abuse!"

If she wants the other guy, she needs a divorce. Period. Her husband's alcoholic status doesn't change anything in this scenario.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blueberryskies:
<strong>"
"What specifically about alanon doesn't she like?What tactics? How often has she gone?"

...She feels that it is wrong to force an alcoholic into treatment, and that the "intervention" plans are wrong. She went a couple times, if that.

Unfortunately, she's been fantasizing about her first husband daily for the last 2 decades. When he found her (he's in a relationship, of course, but not married) on-line, she couldn't believe her luck.

The way she relates her dilema to me is:
If she leaves her current husband, she will feel horrible for leaving him now when he needs her the most.

However, the thought of spending her years alone after he dies/while he dies of alcoholism is terrible considering that she now has a chance to be with her x, who has proposed.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Alanon does not believe in forcing an alcoholic into treatment, just the opposite. So she hasn't probably been to an Alanon meeting at all.

She claims that she won't leave him because she will "feel horrible." Doesn't she feel horrible cheating on him? She doesn't feel horrible living with an alcoholic? She really needs to get to an Alanon meeting and make plans to end this marriage if she can't handle it. Nothing justifies having an affair and she doesn't seem to understand this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blueberryskies:
<strong>"Why does she stay?"

...She feels obligated to her husband for being there for her while she recovered from an abusive childhood and being abandoned by her first husband/current lover.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">blueberry,

I just had to comment on this statement and it's flagrant hypocrisy. Does her nobility and "obligation" not extend to fidelity? She is saying it is somehow better to BETRAY than to leave him? The betrayal of an adulterous affair is far less noble than doing the honorable thing and leaving the spouse before having an affair.

blueberry, I hope you will be a friend to her and have a very frank talk with her because she desperately needs it. She is very confused, her reasoning is foggy and she needs someone to tell her the TRUTH instead of telling her what she wants to hear. She is taking a very perilous, cruel path by betraying her husband and is looking for justification for an affair. I hope you point this out to her. That would be the greatest gift you could give to your friend.

Thanks for all of the advice...

I've been thinking about the MB site and I think her current state falls into the confusion phase, trying to decide which one to go to.

Personally, I wish she'd stay away from husband #1/lover. This is just my intuition talking, but there's something about him....

Also, I'm very against affairs, I mean even before all of this, when I saw an affair, I'd just step up on the soap box!

I think the thing that confused me so much is that her current husband has been outright abusing her with his drinking. Saying that he'll NEVER stop drinking, Never leave the house, won't eat, bathe.

But I also think you guys are right, Never an excuse for affair. I think she's in the fog, and addictive stage of all of this.

After hearing from all of you, I think it would be best for her to go to alanon, maybe get an temporary apt. away from mean H, and stop seeing "Mr. Wonderful" immediately.

But I think the affair will probably die a natural death and she'll stay with H, intuition is telling me.

-blueberry

5 yrs ago I went to some alanon meeting that encouraged me to seperate from my spouse... then more faithful and loving than now.

anyway... I did not lik e that... find the right meeting... the true premise of the program is to take care of you and your life.. the alnaon .. that is.. not the alcoholic / addict in your life...

some meetings may be off base, or some people.. so look out for that.

hugs and luck, HOney

Blueberry,

Your friend is lucky to have you. You may want to consider going with her to a few different Alanon meetings so that she can find one that suits her. The groups seem to have their own individual personalities.

In the beginning when I attended it really helped to have someone go with me until I felt "safe". She'll need all the support she can get from you! CSue

Hey blueberry,
I should tell you something I have seen in alot of co-dependents. They LIKE having an alcoholic dependent on them and don't WANT TO LEAVE THEM. Your friend makes me think something like this is going on. They LOVE taking care of the alcoholic and being the only adult in charge. This is why alot of alanons leave alcoholics AFTER they quit drinking. They leave because another adult moved in the house.

I suspect your friend really likes living with him or she would have been long gone instead of staying with him and making all sorts of excuses and garnering all manner of pity for her poor lot in life. She likes having a pity party. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Csue-
It would be great if she'd go to Alanon, and I wouldn't mind going at all...

However...

I have a sneaking suspision that MelodyLane is right (sigh)... That maybe my friend enjoys the drama, caretaking, and other luxuries that her severly alcoholic husband's disease "affords" her.

This confirms what I've heard in the past about people's actions having a "payoff."

From day one of our long friendship, she let me know in no uncertain terms that talking about her alcoholic husband's drinking, health or anything else would be taken as a great insult, and our friendship would be immediately terminated.

So when the affair started, I could not believe that she was having one! I had no idea what to say about it, and to top it off, she was asking my opinion!

I didn't want to lose her as a friend, but slowly I started speaking my mind. She told me right out that that was fine, and right now she needs the truth.

Everyone who has posted here has really given good advice. I like "reality check" posts, no need to beat around the bush when someone's life is at stake. thanx.

-bbs

Blueberry,

Yes, I see your and Melody's point about caretaking. I did that too for awhile. It's a great distraction to keep you from dealing with your own demons! The alcoholic conveniently makes the most noise therefore gets the attention. You don't have to face yourself and you can continue running from yourself with a distraction of that magnitude.

I feel like I had a close-call and got out of my situation. I was amazed to learn of my role in the whole dynamic and how the part I played had nothing to do with the alcoholic.

Your friend has much to learn; and most of it she'll either learn for herself or she won't. Depends on how much pain she can take. CSue

Tonight she left for safety reasons to a girlfriend's house. This is about 50 miles away from the OM. I'm hoping that she'll have some time to be around supporting friends (away from OM).

The OM's girlfriend called my friend's current husband tonight (3rd time in all)... I just don't think that he's coherent enough to process what she's saying.

Maybe she's looking for support and to help the A die... but with all his health etc, the last thing he needs to hear is the gore, but what do I know?

Someone just posted a link Dr. Harley wrote onto another thread about how A hurts EVERYONE included.

I'm feeling hurt, like I need to do Plan B with my own friend or something.

I'm also feeling galvanized against any supposed Hollywood glamour concerning affairs. They totally suck.

From the very start this has just been awful. Well, now I'm having my own Pity Party! Yay! Well, thanks for listening in cyberville. It feels good just to type.

-bbs

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>