EC;
Very interesting. let's explore this further.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that I am able to perform the feat you are describing. That I somehow find it within me to do that without emotional suicide.

In your view, what would that look like, in a practical sense?

I mean, would I go back home, tell her that I love her just as she is, and go about our lives like that? Trying to ignore the pain and "living" the acceptance of her "flawed" cloth?

Or is there another way you are looking at this? I mean how would I demonstrate to her that newfound "love-you-just-as-you-are" persona?

EC, SC:

SC, I think I can tell you what would happen from my own perspective. And EC, I don't mean to ridicule your suggestion, but it does sound a bit similar to what my IC recommended to me when I told him that for now, I'd rather be M'd than right. He suggested that I change my thinking about what is right and wrong. That, so what if my W continues to have a R with her OM? She's 47 now. Where is she going to go? I just said that I can't live like that indefinitely.

And, SC, this is what I think would happen if you went back home now. Maybe it would be okay. Maybe *I'M* going to be okay. But that's the best it will ever be if nothing else changes. Just "okay." My W and I are close sometimes, and it's very nice. But no ILY's from her, and so I'm feeling less of a desire to send ILYs in her direction. Over time, the apathy will grow, and, like the Harleys say, my LB$ will be so low that I might as well just get a DV because I won't care anymore. No need for plan B. I hope that doesn't happen. I really hope that my W will be one of the rare ones that comes out of the fog without the pressure of plan B to have to wake her up. But I honestly don't know. And I honestly don't know if I will care enough to stop the decline if it really gets going. And I will have been M'd 27 years this December.

SC, I am glad to hear that you feel better today. The suggestion that you do something fun during the coming days is a good one. A short trip. Something with your kids.

I have been reading the suggestion that you go back home and "accept" your wife as she is and the comment from 2long about his own situation. 2 long is absolutely right in his prediction of what his M will be like after a few years.

It has been almost 3 years since d-day for me and I did just that. I tried to get into my H's shoes, to accept him as he was, flaws and all; meaning I decided that if staying in contact with OM was what made him happy I could try to forget what it did to me and live with what he was willing to give me. I decided I wasn't going to worry about them and live for us.
What happened is that we grew further and further apart as a couple and became more and more like very fond roommates. My H was relatively happy and I was miserable. I knew less and less about him and he made sure his life was neatly divided in two. One pleasant half at home and one emotionally passionate on the phone.
Now, my questions for those who think this would have eventually brought us closer because H would eventually realise what a loving giving person I was, are the following:
When was this bound to happen? which of my needs would be filled and by whom?
EC, what is wrong with SC's W being asked not to find the cloth perfect but to offer SC to see what part they can mend together to make it beautiful? You seem to imply that after spending time and energy on the cloth, then having his W not know if she can accept it as is because she wants it perfect or not al all, SC should come home and mend it alone while she continues to wonder if she should accept it.

There comes a time when you can't work on a marriage alone. You can't be the one to hold up the R all by yourself. What would be the goal of that? To be happy rather than right? How can SC be happy if he is alone in the M? Is it a marriage then? or just two people living together under the same roof unable to connect like 2long and his W.

SC, My H has come to the house three times since we separated. Each time it was after I called to tell him he had mail. He then immediately said he would be right over to get it and then each time we got into an OR talk. There was no yelling or getting upset but there was underlying resentment from my H for my having "thrown him out", and the definite though unexpressed conviction that if he came back he would be back on his fence. There was no talk of ending anything with OW, and nothing about wanting anything but to get back to renovating the house. Back to his old life, not to a new life. Last time he said that even if he stopped calling OW, it would not be enough for me. To which I replied that he was right. He was stunned and came over to me and hugged me. I have no idea what that means and I have stopped trying to figure that kind of thing out.

SC, hang in there you are doing great and don't ever lower the bar. You deserve a good marriage.

I just want to point out that there is a huge difference between acceptance of reality and "accepting" harm.

Acceptance of reality means that we can start to move forward with decisions based on "what is" instead of "what we wish" or "what we want" reality to be.

Acceptance does NOT mean approval or permission of behaviors that harm us - although many jump to the conclusion that this is what is meant.

Decisions based in reality probably have a better chance of good outcomes, don't you agree?

Just something to ponder though, Space: Forced solutions never work.

You are trying to force a solution - but you have improved. You stopped trying to force your wife, and now you are just trying to force Steve to force your wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But that's ok, thats what Steve is for. I do want to point out tho Space, that in light of our other discussion, that pressuring your wife to committ right NOW on YOUR terms is not a good idea. Do you want another "agreement" that isn't?

Let Steve do that - when you do it, its a LB. When Steve does it, he's your marriage coach.

I think thats what E-C is trying to point out. Your wife is who she is right now. You are trying to get her to change into someone that you can live with. Your wife is who she is...and the decisions you have to make should be based on who she is, not who you want her to be.

What you have to decide is if you love her "as she is" or love her "as you hope she might be if you can convince her to change".

And that doesn't mean move back in and suffer the abuse of an active affair.

My suggestion to SC speaks only to what I hear as his situation. Every M is completely different and unique onto itself. There are lots of examples where one road works for one couple but is a total failure to another. For some Plan B is the only option. For others not. There is no cut and dried answer for everyone or there would be no question of what to do next. My thoughts were offered only for SC&#8217;s particular situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I mean, would I go back home, tell her that I love her just as she is, and go about our lives like that? Trying to ignore the pain and "living" the acceptance of her "flawed" cloth?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. With one change...your perspective. It would take alot of courage for you to have the faith to believe that as you accept her for who she is right now, she will feel loved again and you&#8217;d reap what you sow....love. You, SC, have the kind of courage it would take to do that.

Can you imagine if you asked me &#8220;Will you marry me?&#8221; and my answer back was &#8220;Yes, as soon as you promise me you will.......&#8221;. That&#8217;s not love I&#8217;m offering you. That&#8217;s loving the potential of what you could become. That&#8217;s drawing up the picture of who I want you to be and expecting you to fit into that mold before you&#8217;ll be good enough for me.

Harley&#8217;s teachings are right. The sooner the WS can reveal &#8220;all&#8221; to their BS, the faster the M can get back on track. But Harley doesn&#8217;t claim for that to be the ONLY way. There are countless stories on this board of WS&#8217;s who haven't managed to do it. Is it because any one of them are better or worse than the rest of us? Nope. It&#8217;s that they just don&#8217;t have enough trust in the love they are getting to risk that it will be Ok and they will still be accepted and loved. Dare they reveal all and risk losing everything when they are desperate for what love they are currently getting? Especially when, to some, they have become what they see as one of the worst things you can be without murdering someone...a WS. Causing all that pain, suffering, anger, anguish, etc to the person they love the most! Who knows....for some that may feel worse than murdering.

Let&#8217;s use Kat&#8217;s story from her inner child thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It&#8217;s about a prisoner who is thrown into a deep cave with a month&#8217;s worth of food and water, and is told that there is a way out of the cave, and if he can find it, he&#8217;ll be free to go. He keeps trying to pile up rocks toward the hole at the top of the cave where he can see light coming from. But there&#8217;s nowhere near enough rocks. He dies, and they open up the cave, and he&#8217;s lying within three feet of a tunnel that leads through the hill and out the other side. He was looking to the light that he couldn&#8217;t reach, for freedom, when the pathway out was THROUGH THE DARKNESS.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are all desperate to hang onto the love we get. And for some, (my guess is this is SC's W) it is too big a leap of &#8216;faith&#8217; for them to trust the darkness. So they pile rocks up like crazy to get to the light when in fact, for some, if they risked the darkness (the unknown), they would find a thankful BS waiting at the end of the tunnel.

So how do you break the cycle of the rock piling? Change your perspective and love her exactly how she is today. View her as the love of your life not as the cause of your pain. Focus in on the love you have for her exactly as she is today. You need to be the strong one of the two of you at this time. Have the &#8216;faith&#8217; that as she starts to feel loved by you for exactly who she is today, that she will then start trusting your love and have enough &#8216;faith&#8217; herself to risk going into the dark. I would wager dimes to donuts that whatever pain you are feeling, she is feeling doubly as much because after all, she is the one that strayed. She&#8217;s scared, lonely, cold and desperate down there. And at this time, you can still save her.

But remember, she only has so much food and water down there. Don&#8217;t give her love for you a chance to die. She says it&#8217;s over with OM. Have faith that that is the truth for her. Don&#8217;t set the stage for him (or anyone else) to be able to ride in and rescue her before you do. She&#8217;s not looking for someone else right now or she wouldn&#8217;t be trying so desperately to find her way back to you.

As Bramblerose said, trying to force her back into your life &#8220;on your terms&#8221; won&#8217;t get you what you want. If she doesn&#8217;t do it your way you&#8217;ll plan B her. And in your words (paraphrased) that&#8217;s &#8220;really going to hurt her&#8221;. That isn&#8217;t going to get you what you want either. Yes, it&#8217;ll &#8216;break&#8217; her one way or the other. But remember there&#8217;s a chance it&#8217;ll go the other way since she may feel no love from you anymore then. Lots of talk of love but the actions say differently. And even if she does break the direction you want, she's not going to feel more loved by you....just more controlled.

Try for a minute to forget the words YOU want to hear from her and listen to what she said. When I read the post you first started this thread with what I heard her say was &#8220;I want you. I love you. But I&#8217;m too lost to know what to do next and too afraid to reveal any more flaws in me because I see you struggling to love me already. I&#8217;m in so much pain right now that I don&#8217;t have the courage to risk of going into the darkness. Show me the way.&#8221;

Don&#8217;t try to force her back ....love her back. She doesn&#8217;t need to be forced...she&#8217;s already searching for the way back to you.

I have a set of double C batteries I&#8217;d be glad to give you....throw her that flashlight she so desperately needs in order to find her way through the darkness.

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

Hmmm...well I don't think Space should move back. What Space has done is draw boundaries, which means that his wife is experiencing consequences for her choices, but not as a result of Space punishing or controlling.

There's a fine line between boundaries and control and I think Space is getting better at boundaries (I have to remove myself from the house/you because your choices hurt me) instead of control (Change or I'll plan B/divorce you).

Boundaries are better drawn in acceptance and I think Space has getting there. I don't think he should move back home right now, it would simply confuse the issue with his wife and not send a clear message.

What Space needs to do is let Steve do the educating and pressuring. At any point Space is free to say: I've had enough, I don't want this in my life. He's no longer a victim, he is choosing to wait a little longer to see if his wife can/will offer a plan to fix her part of the marriage.

I completely concur with you Bramblerose.

I've only read the privacy thread and this one so I'm not aware of something she's doing that is still crossing a boundary of his. Are we talking about the privacy thing or is it something more?

SC, can you fill me in?

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

BR/EC; I see your point. And it is a very valid point. There is no question that ideally, I would be able to love her and give her the space she needs to reach her conclusions on her own, and with far less damage to her LB$ for me. And that I AM trying to force a solution directly or thru Steve. I have to agree with the logic and sense that makes.

However, I think that to the extent of my ability, that is what I tried to do with my Plan A. And I lived with an active affair, giving her all the love and understanding and space I possibly could for 6 months of Plan A, even after I'd already lived another 5 months under those conditions before learning to do a good Plan A.

Why would it be different now, or why would you think that I'd be able to do that? I'm afraid my LB$ is so low that I may not even be able to Plan B very long before I move on.

EC;
I guess it is the fact that after a year (DDay was Aug 26/01) the A continues unabated, and during that time there have been more than 7 DDays after she's said it was over. Trust is gone in that sense, therefore the "demand" for evidence.

I'm not entirely sure why exactly BR reached that conclusion, but that's what I believe I did during my Plan A. I stopped snooping, stopped R talk, stopped pressuring her, and let her do her thing. Loved her as much as I possibly could during this time, tried to show her that I realized, belatedly perhaps, that I had hurt her and that I was willing to change, and loved her, loved as much as she'd let me.

Until one day, after it was becoming unbearable to see her continue the R without any changes, going down to FL again to see him, my anger and hurt were getting so close to the surface that I told Steve, I need to get out, I'm going to explode and ruin everything, it's bubbling up to where I can't hold it in anymore.

So I went to her, and said "I love you, but I am leaving because the pain of living with you while you continue this relationship has become too much for me to bear, and I can't live with your divided love anymore." and that's what I did.
Steve suggested about a week of Pre-Plan B, in the sense that I'd be gone but if there was some contact it was OK, kind of a weaning period so she'd better accept the letter when it came as an act of love and not anc act of punishment, and this period or Pre-B has been extended because she said to Steve that she wanted me back, and what did she have to do to get me back, Steve told her "Radical Honesty and Evidence", she said she'd do it, then she backed down, we waited another week, she said the same again, Steve said the saem to her again, she said she'd do it, and that was supposed to have been yerterday's meeting. But she didn't say a word, she only questioned me...

PS:BR I responded to you in the "APM" thread

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Extremely_confused:
<strong>SC,

You have my deepest sorrow for your heartache today after all the work you did this week in your privacy thread. You put in so much effort and your courage in that thread was outstanding.

Here&#8217;s a thought&#8230;..

Imagine you just spent the last year weaving a precious piece of cloth for me. It was your first attempt at weaving so there are some imperfections in the finished product but it is beautiful none the less. You spent countless amounts of time pouring your blood, sweat and tears into it. One day, you come knocking on my door and offer me the cloth. But the first thing I say to you is &#8220;Why are you offering me this? Look at it&#8230;.it&#8217;s flawed. I don&#8217;t want it like this. Fix it and then I&#8217;ll consider accepting it.&#8221;

How would you feel? Not only have I crushed you but I&#8217;ve eliminated any possibility of happiness that I might have gotten out of you offering it to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SC: "Well, you need to end the R with the OM, and you need to demonstrate it in a credible way; we need to ensure that it stays that way, we need to set rules about what we do if say, he calls you again. We need to commit to total honesty with each other, and we need to commit to working on our marriage."

SC: I do not see any possibility of any change in posture from her, so likely we've just postponed full Plan B by a few more days.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I ask this age old question with the gentlest tone...would you rather be right or would you rather be happy?

Yes, you are right that she should end the R with OM. Yes, you are right that she should demonstrate that. Yes, you are right that she should be keeping no secrets from you because she should be trying to earn your trust again. Is being right making you happy?

If you dig way down in your heart, is there any chance you could just accept that there are flaws in the fabric of her character (as there are in each of us)? Much blood, sweat and tears has gone into the building of her fabric over the last year. Could it be that you and her both want the same thing now but she may not be strong enough to do the right thing yet?

Can you look past her flaws and love her exactly as she is today? Can you take the gamble that even if she&#8217;s not completely over the OM yet that maybe her perspective that HE is not the issue is the truth for her? He may be an issue for you still but maybe, just maybe, she's not talking fogese and it is her truth.

Is there any chance that you could find the &#8220;faith&#8221; to believe that you reap what you sow? Can you take the chance that &#8220;I don&#8217;t know&#8221; might just be the best that she knows right now? Can you allow her to be exactly who she is today and trust that as soon as she feels that you love her, flaws and all, that her love for you will lose it&#8217;s fear to resurface. And then she may start reweaving parts of that fabric to make it even more beautiful for you, out of love FOR you not pressure FROM you.

For all the above to happen you&#8217;d just need to do one thing...change your perspective. Focus on what is good and what you love about her instead of what you want to change about her.

I read your privacy thread. And what I saw there was great strength, courage and wisdom on your part. I, for one, believe you absolutely have what it takes to be &#8216;happy&#8217; instead of right. And then you will reap what you sow.

E_C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EC

Everything you say is true IF she was truly working on the M and not in the fog. What she is offering him is not something that was the product of 'blood,sweat, and tears' but a 'bone' she's throwing him, to maintain the status quo that she has grown to love so much. Her actions, NOT empty promises, are what will give SC the hope and desire to go back to her and work on the M.

The WS is always saying how the BS tries to control his/her behavior, when it is the WS who is the one that has controlled the BS with his/her lies and deceit. How do you know a liar is telling you the truth? by his/her actions that back up his/her words.

Her statements to him of 'I need more time' is just for the purpose 'buying time' until she can resume her EA with OM once he gets out of prison and then she can leave SC for good. The proof is that she only does 10-20% of what Steve Harley told her to do. If she was serious she would be doing more than that.

SC knows his WW and when he says that if he goes to plan B, she will furious with him, it's because she will no longer will be able to call the shots.

My xWW had multiple A's with former inmates (most have been sent back to prison, what a surprise) and I can tell you that those kinds of A's are extremely difficult to end because these are consumate 'playa's' and know how to manipulate a woman's emotions. Even my xWW admitted to me, that the fog only started to clear a year after our Dv when she found out that I was involved in my now present relationship. Mind you that all of this happened before I even knew of MB, but my point is that she got slapped by reality only after I let go and moved on with my life.

I hope that in SC it will not take a Dv before his WW realizes what terrible mistake her A was and how the man that loved her for more than twenty years, is gone and has moved on with his life. But in order to avoid that fate, his WW needs to do MORE than 10-20% of the work to rebuild the M.

I just want to write I agree with this last post. I know I don't have nearly as much experience here as most others, and while moving home and loving them just as they are works for some, I think that is just going too far. Yes, you shouldn;t force an answer out of anyone, or try to make someone do anything. BUT to move back home while the affair is or still could be going on and just say "I accept you as you are?" If I were a WS that would tell me I am in complete control of the situation and I have the best of both worlds- I have my BS and his unconditional love, and I have the freedom to make whatever choices I wish and he'll stay with me no matter how much those choices hurt him. Even if his WW is not consciously being that manipulative, and she really wants to work on the marriage, he should not move back in until she agrees to the very basic things needed by him. And again I don't think he should force her, but he has to stick up for himself and adamantly let her know that this is what he needs and if she can't provide it, then he can't heal. If she thinks that sticking up for himself is controlling, then too bad for her. Sorry but I just don't get any of this! I have told others about this site and how great I think it is, and the general opinion of those people are that we are crazy. If someone cheats and isn't willing to do what is needed, why stay and wait and hope (through plan A and B) I see their point but I also see the points made here as well and I agree with them. But SC, you have been waiting such a long time, you are doing more than I think 9 out of 10 BS would do. and that's great, but I think there is no need to feel guilty when and if you decide you can't take her behavior anymore. I understand that she's in a fog and all that but it is no excuse to make you hang on indefinitely.

Rats!

I have a lot to do in the next couple of weeks, so I don't think I'll be posting a lot (and I feel the NEED to post a LOT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). This thread has really gotten me interested today. Wish I could write a lengthy reply, but I have to run soon, but I wanted to comment to EC:

"Yes. With one change...your perspective. It would take alot of courage for you to have the faith to believe that as you accept her for who she is right now, she will feel loved again and you’d reap what you sow....love. You, SC, have the kind of courage it would take to do that."

I think I'm in a better position to do this than SC is at the moment, though he could conceivably use this strategy to continue this pre-plan B if that's called for.

I tread a very fine line since I moved back home after my week away last month. I've been "helped" considerably by the experience of being away trying to plan B, sort of, plus starting on prozac after that. I really haven't LB'd at all the whole time, and haven't even bothered my W with my concerns about her email contact with her OM. The result? Well, I can see the effort she's making, however small at the moment, because I'm not focusing so much on how what I'm doing is affecting her thinking. And so I also think that, since I've taken some of the pressure off her, she's feeling much more "safe" with me than she had before. I don't think her attachment is as deep for her OM as Ms. Space's is for her OM, and I think my W realizes what she needs to do in the long term for me to want to stay M'd to her.

So, I'll keep this up and wait. I have a job interview out of state next week that my W encouraged me to apply for when I had decided not to. She believes (at least says to me) that if I took the job, I'd either move the whole family with me, or keep our house here and go back and forth (I'd be doing that anyway). She doesn't talk about the prospect of me moving alone and separating. So, I'm not going to make that an issue. I will have several months to decide what to do if the job offer comes. In the meantime, I have a W that believes she's working on the M in her own way. So I'll keep working on it in my way. I'll remain hopeful, but try not to get my expectations up unrealistically.

Gee, I managed to write a tome anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I will perhaps clarify a couple of things;

When I left my home and my WW after 11 months of living with an active affair, I did not demand anything of her. In fact, I had stopped demanding of her many months before. All I said was: "I am separating myself from the pain of living with you while your A continues. I choose to not continue to expose myself to the pain that causes, I remove myself from your triangle."

We did have a minor spat or two that day before I left, but my posture did not change. I was merely choosing to remove myself from the pain. And dhe has known all along what causes the pain, and what could stop that pain, she has just chosen not to do it.

When I talked to her yesterday, it was at HER request, based on 2 weeks of sessions with Steve, in which she asked Steve "what do I need to do to get my H back home?". Steve told her "Radical Honesty and Evidence". The first week she agreed to do that, and then changed her mind. We decided to give her another week to see if she'd reconsider, and this meeting came about at the end of that week.

It was a meeting requested by her, and guided by what Steve had told her she had to do to "get me back". However, she CHOSE, once again, NOT to go through with it, and rather ASK me questions and hammer me AGAIN with her view of things. I perhaps should not have let her and should have just said, "look, you called the meeting, if you have nothing to say, let's just not have it." But I didn't. I stayed, amnswered her questions and to a certain extent demanded what I needed to go back home; but this was, after all, what SHE had said she wanted, and what she'd told Steve she wanted and was willing to do.

I hope that clarifies some things.

That being said, however, I am always open to new options, and I will be as open as possible to recognizing mistakes of judgment or behavior, and attempt to change them, so that is why I followed the idea behind EC's suggestion. I will still do that if it's warranted.

Bear one thing in mind; I want to save my marriage. That, above all else, is my desire and hope. And to that end, I will do whatever it takes, provided it does not compromise my feelings and needs in a way that I cannot live with.

I do recognize the enormous damage I have done to my W over the years, real or not, that SHE feels. And I recognize the enormous difficulty for her to "believe" that it IS possible to rebuild something that will satisfy HER with what she has known and come to believe of me and my capacity/desire to change. So, within that context, if there is ANYTHING I can do to help her "believe" more that it is possible, I will.
I realize I am now competing with a "Love" created by her A, a Love that she felt was extremely wonderful, and that she feels I am not capable of. But although we all know it is a fantasy love, she does not. For her it IS real, and she just does not believe she and I could ever have that. In addition, she has said that I just do not light the "passion" that she desires in her, and that she does not know if I will ever be able to, therefore she says she does not know if she loves me the way she should.

What part of that is real and what part impossible fantasy, I do not know. But since she believes it, I have to take it as REAL, and hopefully be able to give her something that convinces her that it IS, indeed, possible for her and I to reach that love and that passion she so desires for her life.

I realize it may be an impossible task, but will nonetheless entertain any suggestions that might lead to that.

PS; for the record, from my standpoint (and I think also my W's), my W and I NEVER had that "Intense Passion" that we all perhaps fantasize about with crazy, passionate lovemaking, and all that. Our S life was good, but never fantastic. And it was always rather more conservative than I'd like. We were somehow never able to really moev beyond that. Whether it was because of her having part of her emotional connection elsewhere (she DID have another A that I know of 14 years ago, and as far as I know there could have been more) or for toher reasons, I do not know.

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hi Space ~

I think you are doing fine. Really.

No one gets this perfectly or all at once - and its a learning process. You are moving in the right direction.

I do think you probably need to explore the more subtle areas of control (selfish demands and disrespectful judgements) BUT I don't really see where you are screwing up horribly.

I agree with Steve's approach here, he's doing the demands for you - being the bad guy. Thats what you pay him for!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Hi Space ~

I think you are doing fine. Really.

No one gets this perfectly or all at once - and its a learning process. You are moving in the right direction.

I do think you probably need to explore the more subtle areas of control (selfish demands and disrespectful judgements) BUT I don't really see where you are screwing up horribly.

I agree with Steve's approach here, he's doing the demands for you - being the bad guy. Thats what you pay him for!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope so, BR. I don't want to wake up one day and realize I could have saved our M, and didn't because of ego or fear or ignorance.

I don't know if this is good, bad, or a "sign" of something, but lately I've been thinking a lot about what my life would be like if my W and I divorced, if I had to "start over".

I've thought of how I could buy our house, about whether the kids would stay with me or not, what I might do, If I'd move somewhere else, other women I might date, all those things.

Is that...OK, normal, a bad sign, a good sign...any thoughts on this?

I feel a little guilty about it, but at the same time there's a certain "excitement" too...I don't know what to think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know if this is good, bad, or a "sign" of something, but lately I've been thinking a lot about what my life would be like if my W and I divorced, if I had to "start over".

I've thought of how I could buy our house, about whether the kids would stay with me or not, what I might do, If I'd move somewhere else, other women I might date, all those things.

Is that...OK, normal, a bad sign, a good sign...any thoughts on this?

I feel a little guilty about it, but at the same time there's a certain "excitement" too...I don't know what to think. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well SC,

I don't know whether it's good, bad, or normal either, but can tell you that I feel the EXACT same way.

Of course my WW has already filed, so DV is not really too far off for me (I don't think, but she HAS shown different signs lately).

Anyway, we were in the middle of planning our house to be built, and also planning on conceiving our first child, when my world was rocked. Now, I think about those things a lot. I also get the "excitement" you spoke about. But sometimes I think I see the "prospects" being exciting because I can subconciously see them as removing me from the world that I'm currently in.

So, it's probably normal. At least I hope so. One thing that it does show me, and probably shows you, is now we are concentrating more on US, than on the WW's. And that is the stage that we told we needed to be in, right? Concentrating on us. It allows us to "detach", but yet cause the WW to really sense us detaching. Sort of a double-edged sword for the WW.

Now, after her "visit" last week, but being "invisible" since, I now need to find a way to not give in the next time. I can't handle the "teasing". Gonna have to muster up a little more "indifference".

HCII

Hey Spacecase U r doing great! Maybe all that has happened in the last few days & getting ideas from your fellow MB have allowed you time for reflection, you are looking at your options & maybe your mind is clicking into survival mode as you know the day is drawing near for "the showdown" not that i am suggesting it will be a showdown at all (just my warped way of describing things!) but my take on this is that this 3 way conversation with Steve is going to be one of 3 things either 1.W will have second thoughts about the session (cause she will feel cornered, right now especially if everytime she has told steve she will do one thing & then does another she will know he's onto her so to speak)

Or 2.you will go to plan B on Steves advise or 3.W will try & delay things even more & want to keep sitting on the fence for a while longer (although I would think she would be getting mighty uncomfortable sitting on there by now! not to mention the splinters that will be accumulating in her backside!!
Anyway I think she is one lucky gal to have you so in love with her that you are enduring all of this pain & if she don't want ya then get yaself over here! (just jokin of course) So a big deep breath for the counselling session, we are all sitting by our computers waiting for your next post..CHIN UP YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!!!! & HOORAY FOR STEVE HARLEY HE IS THE BEST.. he still laughs every time I have my session with him because of the odd hours I have to call because of the time difference the last tiime it was 3am here!!!! hows that for dedication 2 a marriage!!

SC,

I&#8217;m a day behind because, as is common here, we had a power failure for a significant part of yesterday. I thought this post was lost but when the power came on again, there it was waiting for me to send to you so I will. I will be excitedly replying to your last post shortly.
*************************************

I&#8217;m sure you recognize all this as coming from Kat&#8217;s thread on inner child stuff. It&#8217;s all new to me too so extract what you find useful (if anything) and throw away what doesn&#8217;t fit for you.

Here&#8217;s how things appear to me with my very limited knowledge.

There are a myriad of possibilities for why your W may feel a need to hide things.

Yes, she could be still in A mode. That is a definite possibility.

But that is not the only possibility. She could also feel that the two of you wouldn&#8217;t recover if you knew everything and that would break the last thread that is holding you two together. Who she was pre-A may be very different than who she is today. Her inner child may be even more hurt now as a result of the bad choices she made and possibly some bad choices you made in handling the aftermath. (I know I made some horrible mistakes post D-day.) So from her perspective she could be feeling less loveable and not worthy of your love as it is.

She could still be trying to &#8216;clean&#8217; up the aftermath of OM but with him in jail it&#8217;s dragging things out (ie. Maybe they have a joint account that she can&#8217;t close or some other such unpredictable thing) and she fears that you will misinterprete something.

It&#8217;s possible that she&#8217;s got some other completely un-A related &#8220;private&#8221; shadow that she fears would be revealed if she complies with your demands and her inner child just can&#8217;t allow for that yet. (I do. I stumbled onto it in Kat&#8217;s thread and haven&#8217;t faced it yet (ie. Told any wise people about it. I will when the time feels right for me.)

Maybe her inner child cannot handle the feeling of being told what to do right now.

Or she might have a huge shadow around feeling forced to do things.

And those are just some of the ones that come to me off the top of my head. I&#8217;m sure there are countless others. Stay open-minded. The human mind is a complex thing and whatever or whyever she can&#8217;t share MIGHT not be a deal breaker for you.

Let me ask you this....what if her secret is that she murdered someone? Would you love her and stand by her even if she made that catastrophic a mistake? Would it be easier for you to stand by her through that than some continued A info? If yes then what&#8217;s the difference? The difference is that one doesn&#8217;t make you feel less loved than the other. The murder is totally unrelated to you or you&#8217;d already know something about it. Therefore, it would trigger alot less of YOUR shadows....maybe none. If my sense about you is right, you love your W so much that you would sit in a courtroom every day in support of her. You would be not supporting murder as acceptable. You&#8217;d see that she made a mistake whatever the details. Would you be trying to allow or endorse murder? Nope. You would be accepting that she made a mistake and love her as she is.

I have never suggested you alter your boundaries. Again, it&#8217;s a change of perspective while honoring your boundaries that I&#8217;m focused on. NOTHING changes but your perspective. Love her just the way she is. So as for the question of if and when you should move back home, it was never my intention to try to forecast the future for you. I just want to apologize for misunderstanding that the question&#8217;s focus was on &#8220;where&#8221; while I was focused on &#8220;how&#8221;.

SC, you are smart and getting wiser everyday. You are coming into your own and learning to face your own shadows. And as we learned on Kat&#8217;s thread, the more you reveal yourself to &#8216;wise&#8217; people (ie people who can love and accept you exactly as you are), the more truly loved you will feel yourself.

The law of physics states clearly....you can&#8217;t give what you don&#8217;t have. That is what I sense your feeling as current constraints. You said [SC: &#8216;why would you think that I'd be able to do that? I'm afraid my LB$ is so low that I may not even be able to Plan B very long before I move on.&#8217; ] You did not feel loved enough yourself at that time, how could you possibly give it? Yes, you felt a conditional love...so did she. (see &#8216;will you marry me&#8217; example earlier in this thread). But my sense is that now you may just be starting to feel truly loved here. (Maybe I&#8217;m projecting that onto you because I feel it for myself. Please feel free to let me know if that is wrong.) If it is true, you can get your strength (love) here and share it with her. That is the difference.

There are a number of places people turn to find unconditional love. A common one is God. I (and I believe you) are finding it in some of the wise people on this board such as BrambleRose, Kat, Leilana, Twyla, ohmy_Marie, etc. The more you and I reveal our shadows, the more loved and accepted we feel because we know it&#8217;s not just our façade that is being loved.

And, the more loved we feel the more love we have to share with our S&#8217;s. &#8220;We can&#8217;t give what we don&#8217;t have.&#8221; Therefore continuing to work on ourselves is critical to our success because the more shadows we can discover and reveal, the more unconditionally loved we will feel. That&#8217;s not to say that we are revealing &#8216;all&#8217; overnight. You may be. I don&#8217;t have the courage to do that yet even though it&#8217;s what I want. I&#8217;m hoping soon and working hard to get there. We&#8217;ll both do it in our own time and at a speed that is exactly right for each of us.

But as BR said (I love that woman...she is soooooo wise), this is a learning process. Did you screw up by not doing this before? No, because &#8220;you can&#8217;t do what you don&#8217;t know&#8221; anymore than you can give what you don&#8217;t have. I didn&#8217;t do it either or my H wouldn&#8217;t have had his A. We learn as we go and we grow as long as we continue to ask questions and stay open minded. When the student is ready, the teacher appears.

The bottom line&#8230;every person is completely unique making every M completely unique. There may be no value for you in what I&#8217;ve said. You know what? That&#8217;s Ok. I make no judgement on what&#8217;s right or wrong for you. You know why? Because you, Mr. SC, are the most perfect Mr. SC I have every had the pleasure to chat with. I truly do admire your strength, your courage, your stamina and your dedication. You are one amazing man.

E_C

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

SC,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been thinking a lot about what my life would be like if my W and I divorced............ Is that...OK, normal, a bad sign, a good sign...any thoughts on this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had that exact same experience about two weeks ago so if it is for you, what it was for me, then you&#8217;re starting to FEEL the change! I&#8217;m so excited at that possibility that I can hardly type. (It&#8217;s very hard to type while you&#8217;re doing a jig!).

This may be such a good sign depending on what you choose to do with it. I think you may be finding the darkest dark that happens just before dawn.

Maybe you are coming to accept that if you love your W unconditionally then letting her go is the right thing to do. You know....&#8221;If you love something set it free. If it comes back it&#8217;s yours. If it doesn&#8217;t, it never was.&#8221;

And if you can love her enough to let her go, should she choose to, then maybe you can love her enough to accept her exactly as she is. (Just thinking out loud here...I wonder if that is why some people get back together after the D papers....they start to see that they really do NOT have control over another person or of changing the past and finally let go of that need to try to change what is not theirs to change. Don&#8217;t know...just thinking out loud.)

Maybe there is some kind of subconscious symbolism there around you letting go of the 'old' her (the her you wanted her to be) and being ready to love her for who she is today.

For many that feeling you describe would be the last fiddle playing but I sense from you that it&#8217;s your awakening. Your starting to get the deeper lesson of life here.

And I also sense that your W loves you so much but is paralyzed in fear so it's not too late from her side either.

Let&#8217;s take worst case scenario and say she still loves OM. I believe you&#8217;re starting to understand what unconditional love is and the minute you start offering that to her, she will turn away from him in a heartbeat. As you become &#8216;love-based&#8217; rather than &#8216;protection-based&#8221; she will have NOTHING to go to him for. In fact, your M could end up being better than ever. Mine did. Maybe the two of you never had the type of love (Ulove) that leads to passion. I know I never felt as passionate about life as I do today. I feel free, alive, in love with everyone, and catch this....including H&#8217;s xOW!. No kidding! She&#8217;s human...she made mistakes....so did H.....so did I....so what? It&#8217;s 3 or 4 months post D-day for me and I am A-free!!! Nothing about it haunts me anymore.

I&#8217;m sure there are those out there that will say I&#8217;m in denial but you know what....if this is what denial FEELS like then COUNT ME IN!

I read BR&#8217;s thread on &#8220;Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?&#8221; today. SC, all the answers are in there. It all happens in your head but it can&#8217;t until you feel loved yourself. If you haven&#8217;t already, go back and read some of BR&#8217;s earlier posts in that thread. What power that woman writes with. In additon to her posts, here&#8217;s another out of the middle somewhere that spoke to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi BrambleRose,
After nearly three years of dealing with betrayal, I think I finally understand your question. When I first joined MB, one veteran in particular would often ask a new poster that very question, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?" I just didn't get if for a LONG time!
When first confronting an affair, it is easy to get caught up in righteous indignation ("How could he hurt ME so badly? I haven't done anything to deserve this! Why did this happen to ME? I AM RIGHT AND HE IS WRONG!") Unfortunately, some people seem to just get stuck there.
I too wanted my husband to "see the error of his ways" and to admit that he was completely wrong. I guess I really wanted him to assure me that I hadn't been a bad wife! I wanted him to FEEL the pain he had inflicted on me and to be as broken by it as I was.
But that didn't happen, and it probably never will. Because the affair really didn't mean much to HIM, he couldn't really understand how it could be so devastating to ME. And as long as my focus was on being the damaged, betrayed wife, NOBODY was focusing on saving the marriage. I regrettfully admit that I spent too much time focusing on my own pain and sorrow, and he spend just as much time avoiding dealing with it!
It was only when I realized that IF our marriage was going to survive, SOMEBODY had better start doing the right things, and it was going to HAVE to be me....
BUT, that was after many months of MY efforts to "be right" pushed him right back into the arms of the other woman. Often, a person involved in an affair has a pretty clear choice- a raging, punishing, name-calling spouse or an OP who tells them they are wonderful and sexy and fabulous. Let's be honest here, which would WE choose?
A very wise and wonderful counselor helped get me on the right track. She made me see that I had to LET GO of the marriage we had before because the affair ENDED that. After all, if it was the kind of relationship that let to an affair, why would I WANT to go back to it? Instead, she focused her efforts on helping us to begin a new stage in our life together integrating the Harley principles AND the things we have learned along the way. It is a slow and steady process. We haven't found any miracles along the way, but we ARE finding our way together.
It is my firm belief that IF I had not gotten over being stuck in the "I'm right and you are WRONG" mindset, we would NOT be together right now. The truth of the matter is that we have BOTH been wrong sometimes, we have BOTH been right sometimes, and we BOTH want to be married to each other. And that is what keeps us here, still struggling sometimes, but still here TOGETHER.
I choose being married!
Peppermint </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, these are just my thoughts and feelings. Take and own what fits for you and discard anything that is not relative to you or your particular situation.

But if you get nothing else out of this post, SC, hear this clearly. You have been one of the greatest teachers for me. I judge that you and I are at similar places regarding this life lesson, just a week or two apart. And in trying to express to you what I am learning right now I have managed to solidify all this in my own mind. It has been such a powerful gift from you.

Thank you for being here, for being so open about yourself and so willing to stay open to hearing new thoughts at a time when I really needed it.

E_C