....allowing/accepting unacceptable behavior.

I can accept someone as they are, love that person, and STILL set boundaries that protect myself.

Acceptance simply means operating within reality, as it is, not as I wish it was, or want it to be, but as it IS.

It's totally driving me crazy that there seems to be the idea floating around here that acceptance means somehow allowing themselves to be abused in a doormat fashion. It does NOT mean sticking around sucking it up while your spouse heaps abuse on you.

Hmmph.[/rant]

From my "Detachment with Love" thread:

Acceptance - Acceptance is the next key. We need to look at the reality of what has happened in the past and what is happening now. Many of us stumble in the beginning over the incorrect thought that acceptance means approval. Acceptance does not mean that we feel ok about current or past circumstances, it only means that we stop trying to change what we have no power over. We have no power over the past or the wayward spouse.

Even with acceptance, we need to grieve the losses caused by infidelity in our families and in our lives. Dreams have faded, bubbles have burst. Acceptance gives us two things - acceptance of our feelings and also acceptance of the fact that we cannot change the other person - healing from our loss and disillusion is an inside job.

BR,
I'd add that forgiveness works much the same as what you have posted for acceptance. You can forgive someone, yet not put yourself in the position to continue putting up with bad behavior.

Excellent point Lor!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am SOOOOOO GLAD you brought this up!!!!!!!

Ditto, bravo, no brainer, well said!

I can never figure out where people get the idea that a human being is supposed to allow themselves to be abused and treated like cr@p and call it acceptance.

I guess it is just a misinterpretation??? It is NOT about "putting up with" being treated like garbage.

Thankyou, Replaced

This may sound really stupid or naive, but it is possible to forgive someone for infidelity and yet not continue to be married to them? I have been feeling very guilty about this because I think that if I continue to try to repair our marriage, and WS is not interested (or he is but can't/won't do the stuff he needs to do) I will leave and will not have forgiven him. And I do want to forgive? How does one do that, and still not stay with the person? (if it comes to that) - Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong> I have been feeling very guilty about this because I think that if I continue to try to repair our marriage, and WS is not interested (or he is but can't/won't do the stuff he needs to do) I will leave and will not have forgiven him. And I do want to forgive? How does one do that, and still not stay with the person? (if it comes to that) - Thank you!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Libbie,

You can forgive someone for something they've done to you, whether it was done intentionally or not, and still set boundries to your involvement with them if they won't stop hurting you with the behavior. Forgiveness does not mean that you have to let them continue to do the things that hurt you.

It's like living with an abusive spouse. You can forgive that person for hitting you, but still leave to protect yourself if they choose not to stop. Infidelity may not leave bruises, but it still causes pain, and if the WS cannot or will not stop the painful behavior, you can leave to protect yourself and still forgive him for what he's done.

Mere

I think what Libbie meant is, can you forgive, yet still decide to leave, or dissolve the marriage.

Good question. My FWW has ended the A but I still feel like the effort to repair is subpar since she did not CHOOSE to come back, but simply was exposed and had to return to save job and relationship with kids...but is still unsure she wants to stay in the M.

I am feeling continued withdrawals with insufficient deposits. Am concerned that over time, I will begin to feel more anger and hatred...and don't want to go there.

That's EXACTLY what I am feeling! My WS is still with me and I am doing plan A but I think he may be seeing OW. I feel like I do not want him back if I am his last choice. But then I flip flop- argh, I don't know. It is so confusing. But even if he did stay with me in the end, if I found it was only because she didn't want him anymore, I'd feel so resentful. And used- ick!

BR & Lor, Yo go girls!!!!!!

Listen to these ladies, they know what they are talking about. They have what all of you want a recovering marriage!!!

\

<small>[ August 24, 2002, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Confused One ]</small>

Libbie & Willy;

Certainly you can forgive and move on, not stay with them. In fact, it is desirable to do that...not carry a "grudge" around.

For me it's much easier to forgive someone that is no longer in my everyday life.

Good post BR and so are your comments (as usual). Lor, the forgiveness statement is good but as you can see it has opened up another subject.

Acceptance is NOT a doormat state of mind. It is a realization of what we our is within our ability and then work on executing it.

Recovery is always possible. What type of recovery however is what makes the difference.

Inidividual recovery is within everyone's personal grasp since it is within the control of each person. Marital recovery is NOT within the grasp of a soul individual. It takes 2 to make, break and fix a marriage. The degree will vary according to the situation.

So often here the doormat syndrome kicks in soon after d/d. Then there is the hope that recovery soon follows. When that does not happen correctly, false impressions, a scared WS and false recovery often ensues.

JMHO, if the WS is not stepping forward to meet the family's/BS needs, the recovery is a thought but not a reality. For some it can be a start. I think we need to be smarter here how this is handled. Jumping into recovery would be premature and often backfires.

I know like myself, I was looking for any positive sign. After being disappointed over and over again, when definite recovery signs finally did show, I was now skeptical. Very skeptical. To the point that I had to tell my H that I still do not trust him. For that reason, I keep plan B in my back pocket.

So it became his responsibility to work with me. Simple things like checking in, common courtesy stuff, doing things for me, making it a priority to improve himself and get better about looking after our needs. Does he sound good? No not yet but he has improved. He just had and still has a ways to go.

No recovery dance yet. I move with caution. But even with that, I know I am in the acceptance stage. Why? Because I can move forward without regret.

L.

Great posts...really helpful to remind people that the focus really is on each person...that we can only change ourselves and never ever anyone else...and clearly finding out what is and is not acceptable to ourselves...

Plan A is finding yourself..it is becoming the person YOU want to be...it is not about conjoling, winning back or ever ever selling yourself short based on your spouses actions...

It is in fact someways seperating yourself from the relationship...finding you...and being that person who is worthy of being treated in no other way except with the way you have treated others...with dignity and respect...

It is not winning back your spouse..it is winning back you...and you once again believing and finding that person who is lovable, capable, and DESERVING of that love....

I have plagerized the following writings of Pepperband from the other board several times and will do so again for they truly are some of the best worded explanation of empowering ourselves...
she wrote...
"Plan A says and demonstrates to OURSELVES: I am not some weak pathetic person deserving to be abandoned or cheated. I am demonstrating decent and loving behaviour. If the infidel notices .... double bonus points. If not, I become better differentiated along the way ... and I can see my strengths despite terrible and hurtful circumstances.

And my favorite part of her post...

Plan A'ers are not like doormats to wipe your feet upon and to mis-use .... more like a *welcome home* sign... if both persons choose to re-inter the marriage! Plan A says : "I can hold onto my better self under the worst of circumstances".
.... thankyou pepperband..literally could not have said it better.....

If you are feeling like a doormat...it may be more true that something in your own behavior is not sitting right with you.....you are doing something that is against your nobility...acknowledging that arguing, badgering, yelling, begging...etc are things although may sound inviting and even rightious they are the behaviors to be avoided NOT because you don't feel that way..or not because it isn't somewhat deserved..they are avoided because it is futile to power struggle with someone not claiming responsibility for their own selves...and because it can and most likely be used against you in the future...the old.."SEE just when I thought you had changed you become that old ______ ______ yelling, fighting, being mean...whatever crime they decide to hold against you at that moment..all in the name of how innocent they are in all of this...never hand someone a weapon to be turned on you...that's not being a doormat that's being smart and keeping the spouse focused on themselves and not YOU....

Our souls are noble and precious parts of us..and we must learn to treat them so..and we must never sell off pieces of our soul in accepting poor or cruel behavior. OH we may hear it and we may face it...but we must never accept it...

...we must strive to believe in ourselves...and often the belief brings us to a place where we will simply not tolerate crap....and one where we can literally leave the other in the dust in our own personal growth...and feel really good about it.

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Willy1:
<strong>I think what Libbie meant is, can you forgive, yet still decide to leave, or dissolve the marriage.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have people on this board who are the WS, who have totally committed to doing whatever they have to do to save their marriages, and who are currently dealing with BS who don't want to or can't forgive actions from the past. I feel for them, and I sometimes just want to yell at the BS. I can understand the hurt and resentment, but here you have someone who wants to work to repair the damage they've done, and the BS won't let them. God knows, there've been many days that I've wished that was the case here.

What you and Libby are dealing with aren't just actions from the past that need to be forgiven to move on. You're dealing with things that are still going on -- from Libbie's WS, who might still be seeing the OW, to your WS, who only ended the A because of outside pressures and still isn't acting like she wants to be married to you. That stuff's current. If you decided to leave, would it be because of what happened during the active part of the affair, or because of what she is or isn't doing now to repair the damage?

My WH has said he'd cut off contact and write a NC letter to the OW. He was gone all week, and while it appears that he hasn't contacted her, he also hasn't written that NC letter. He's done a few other things that make me think that maybe he's thinking of me and our family first, but I'm still hung up on that NC letter, even though I haven't mentioned it to him. OW called the house Friday night, wondering if he was okay because she hadn't heard from him. I want that NC letter written. Having her call here hurts me, and he knows it.

I can forgive him for the lies and behaviors of the past that have caused me pain, but it's the stuff that's still going on that I don't want to forgive him for. I don't want to *have* to forgive him for it, and if each new day or week is going to bring more of the same for me to just keep forgiving, then maybe removing myself from their triangle is the way to go. That way, he doesn't have to lie and sneak around, and I don't have to keep forgiving the same things over and over.

Mere

OK, then if you finally accept, which in BR's definition I have and gone to plan B, then how do I reconcile with the feelings I have?

Plan B to me is not about H finding out what its like without me, because clearly it has not made any bloody difference to him. But its made a big difference to me, and I don't think I like it.

So now my marriage appears to be over, and that I've instigated it, so where the hell do I go now! I really don't know that plan B is the right way to go about this.

OK, a few questions here:

__________________________________________________

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BrambleRose:

I can accept someone as they are, love that person, and STILL set boundaries that protect myself.

__________________________________________________

I know, BR, that you never went to any type of Plan B. Is this a practice that someone can apply while they are in Plan A?

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Always Hopeful ]</small>

Hi everyone ~

Great comments and additions to my initial post. Ranting is good for the soul! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

seahorse ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK, then if you finally accept, which in BR's definition I have and gone to plan B, then how do I reconcile with the feelings I have? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The very fact that you have to reconcile some feelings says to that acceptance wasn't what you used when you decided to go to Plan B.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B to me is not about H finding out what its like without me, because clearly it has not made any bloody difference to him. But its made a big difference to me, and I don't think I like it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And now we get to the heart of the problem.

You went to Plan B to "make a difference". In other words, you went to Plan B to "force a solution". Forcing solutions is what we do when we try to force reality to be what we want/wish it to be rather than what it is.

What your actions say is: I don't like this reality (my H is cheating) so I am going to go to Plan B to teach him a lesson (educate him) and force him to change (control) into the person I wish he was, rather than the person that he is.

The problem is, the REALITY is that you have NO control over your husband. Going to Plan B to get him to change is denial of the lack of control you have over his actions.

Plan B is supposed to be to protect YOU from his LBs (the lies and the affair). The NATURAL result is that IF you did a good plan A, and IF the affair is nearing a natural death, that the spouse MIGHT choose to come home so he can get those needs filled again that he lost when you went to Plan B.

Plan A along with Plan B, implemented well, don't guarantee success. All they do is give you a good chance of recovery - allowing the BS to walk away from the marriage with dignity, knowing that he/she has done all that could be done to save the marriage. It's called "Surviving an Affair" OR...you could call it "Earning your divorce".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now my marriage appears to be over, and that I've instigated it, so where the hell do I go now! I really don't know that plan B is the right way to go about this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you do this with Steve Harley's help?

I really really really urge you to call him if you haven't already, and review your situation with him.

Always ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know, BR, that you never went to any type of Plan B. Is this a practice that someone can apply while they are in Plan A?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well its only sorta true that I didn't do Plan B. But this acceptance stuff goes for both - its really more about how you approach life, and all its "stuff" than it is specifically about Plan A and Plan B. The problem is that acceptance is really really a necessary component to do well at either Plan.

Hi BR thanks for your reply. This whole plan B thing is giving me the craps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You went to Plan B to "make a difference". In other words, you went to Plan B to "force a solution". Forcing solutions is what we do when we try to force reality to be what we want/wish it to be rather than what it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably, but I had put in a good plan A, and we were also going round in circles. H would not make a final commitment to our marriage, I couldn't stand it anymore - he openly admitted the affair, opening went back and forth, cancelled time together and would not go to counselling. He was a cakeeater, very happy just as he was. I would have LB'd by forcing a decision if I hadn't cut off from him, but now I think it would have been better that way anyway. This is utter torture for me now, although plan A was hard and at times depressing, I am by far more depressed now. I'm pissed off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you do this with Steve Harley's help? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a way yes, I live in Australia, to get one hours of counselling will cost me nearly $400. So, I rang the radio program they air and discussed it on air. The result was that once my health was being affected, if I had put in a good plan A, if the affair hadn't ended, then yes go to plan B. I had ongoing counselling with two other counsellors (in Australia), one of which told me if I don't do this she will be visiting me in hospital. I deliberated over this decision for a month. It was not something I went to without a lot of thought. I didn't just decide, "he's not doing as I want so I'll punish him". I was prepared for this to be the end, but I wasn't prepared for how that would feel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really really really urge you to call him if you haven't already, and review your situation with him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would love to, I will call the radio station again- I think they air tomorrow morning (4am my time). As I am getting really desperate, I probably will call Steve Harley for a phone appt. I know you have posted before about paying for counselling being cheaper than divorce, but at $400 a pop, its something I really have budget for and try to get as much out of as possible. Believe me, I'm prepared to go broke if I can save my marriage - and for me this is a huge statement. There is no counsellor in Australia I can find that supports Harley method, believe me I have tried to find one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A along with Plan B, implemented well, don't guarantee success. All they do is give you a good chance of recovery - allowing the BS to walk away from the marriage with dignity, knowing that he/she has done all that could be done to save the marriage. It's called "Surviving an Affair" OR...you could call it "Earning your divorce". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I understand all that. I probably could walk away knowing I have done all that I could, but its not what I want to do and I really do not believe in my Heart that my H wants to walk away. The other point I make about this, and maybe I have read it incorrectly is that SAA advises that if the affair dosen't end, then go to plan B.

Looking back if I had been in sane mind, I would not have gone to plan B, I would back off maybe take time out somehow, but not cut contact completely.

Its strange, even though I don't want to be in plan B, even though I would like for H to come back, I don't have to convince myself too hard not to call. I want to call, but I know it will do no good.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well its only sorta true that I didn't do Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you please explain how this works?

BR I feel like I have accepted the current situation, but I don't like it. I know I cannot control the actions of my H - been there done that and want to try something new. I want a new relationship that both are prepared to act differently and make changes.