it's really sad to think about, but I've been wondering. When a WS declares they are in love with the OP, is it possible they really are? I mean could they really be "soulmates", or truly in love with each other?

I'm asking because I've been reading a lot of conflicting information about this on the internet. Also, while my WS maintains sometimes she is just a friend, he also has said once he thinks he is in love with her. This was shortly after I found out and hadn't discovered this site. I said something like "how can you think it's love when it's based on lies, secrets and deceit? You were actively deceiving your wife, and she was condoning your actions by having an affair with a married man!" And he replied that while he was sorry he deceived me, he and the OW were completely honest with each other so their relationship did not have any lies or deceit between the two of them, so they could have true love.

Is this true? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm feeling pretty bad tonight.
If anyone has opinions or would like to share their experiences (WS's welcome) I'd appreciate some insight.

Libbie...it is not real, it is not honest, and it is mostly a fantasy. Just part of the fog. Almost invariably, when the A ends, when the fog clears, all WSs say they have no idea how they could do that, what were they thinking, and many even despise the OP.
Don't beat yourself up...it'll get better. Don't obsess on these things.

I agree with Spacecase. They don't owe eachother anything- they're a fantasy or an escape from the real world.If they live together, after awhile he'll probably be calling you up to escape.

Thanks- I was actually wondering about it in general, not just my situation. I wonder if there are many (any?) WS and OP that actually end up happy together. Is it even possible to fall in love when you are actively betraying someone else? If it is not love, then what are the WS and OP feeling? Sorry for all the questions, but I'd really like to know, and not just about my sit. Thanks!

hi,
read your post with much interest. This is a question I've really struggled with too. My H has told me on several occasions that the OW doesn't have much to do with the end of our M. I think this is a lie,but still I wonder like you do- Are they really in love, Were they meant to be together, Is she really what he needs? ON AND ON
And yes I have heard of WS and OP that have gotten together and married, I don't know why but ALOT of people tell me these stories, DO THEY THINK IT MAKES ME FEEL BETTER? But I have to say every situation is different, I think that we have a better chance then most at putting our marriages back in order because we are trying (as hard as it is) to not do even more things to our WS to drive them away, and further validate their reasoning and justification for the A. As Dr. Harley says most WS and OP marriages end in divorce,if it does come to that, I think it is because the WS and the OP never deal with the reasons for the A in the first place and it becomes a cycle that repeats itself. I think even though our WSsdon't realize it, WE, the BS are probably, even after what they have done to us, their best chance at the happiness and fulfilment they seek because you can't tell me that the OP or any other person they get together with has or will go through the soul searching, empathy and a million other feelings that only we can go through as a BS. Sorry to write so long, hope you are hanging in.
Take care,
S

Surely, I don't want to ruffle any feathers-- yet, I am one who believes that the feelings the WS has for the OP are REAL.

While I agree that the WS/OP relationship is "flawed" (based on lies/deceit), I also believe that there is a true connection between the two individuals involved in a "love affair".

I'm not certain that I would term it as "love"... but, I definitely believe that-- depending on the length of the A-- certain stages of love are present and real.

Most likely, if the A is "secret" and still fairly new, the type of love that is present is generally referred to as infatuation. As an A progresses over the years, I can see how/why the love could either fizzle or mature into a more permanent, lasting love.

BTW, I also believe (and know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that in relatively short-term affairs, those warm, fuzzy in-love feelings that the WS has for the OP fade with time. Eventually, with a little self-reflection and maturity on the WS's part, they truly understand that what feelings they had for OP were merely infatuation in nature-- and that they hadn't even come close to mature love.

Peace, ~Marie

I'm with ohmy_marie ~

It hurts like hell to think about, but the feelings that the WS has are real. I am very uncomfortable with simply dismissing the WS emotions towards to OP as "fog".

Yes, the feelings are based on fantasy, yes the relationship is built on lies and deceit, but the feelings still exist.

But as ohmy_marie points out, the infatuation if you will, does die out due to reality rearing its head - but it takes time.

I am at 2.5 years past D-Day, and its been 13 months since my husband and I started recovery. Just 2 nights ago, we were watching "Cheers" on tv, and my husband said out of the blue: "Diane reminds me alot of OW with all her pretentious psuedo intellectualism." Music to my ears!! During the affair, he thought she was incredibly smart, fascinating and well educated <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Feelings change. Feelings are not facts. Don't expect this affair to end any time soon, most of them take 2 years to die. I don't want you to feel despair at that thought, I just want you to understand that right now, there's nothing you can do to get your husband to stop this. He's in love, and that's got to die out naturally before he'll be open to the marriage.

Actually, your best bet right now is to call Steve Harley and get a plan together for surviving this, and giving your marriage the best possible chance for recovery.

Such a tough question. I spent such a time agonizing over this last summer.

I'm w/ BR and Marie on this one. My H was 'in-love' w/ OW. Problem was he also 'loved' me... though at the time he could just say he 'cared' for me... didn't want me hurt...

However, when the fantasy of life w/ her started to become reality... when the fantasy of what our life would 'really' be like... when he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that "I would no longer be FAMILY".... when it all started to fall apart... my DH started to recognize the difference between 'in-love' and 'mature love.'

Could love between WS and OP become mature? Depends on the OP and WS and how much they 'grow.' I think they have a tougher row to hoe... blended families... Xspouses to deal w/... etc. But, I would never say it could never happen... just rare.

btw... there are lies between them... they just don't want to recognize it. My H said that he and Princess never lied to each other... etc. but now, he says they lied to themselves and they made promises to each other based on fantasy... that it was all an 'escape' and a 'dream.'

My best words to you is don't worry or concern yourself w/ THEIR relationship. You just be as REAL as you can be... the BEST you you can be... and it will show...

Cali

They think they are in love. But if you were to put the two together with all the deceit, lies, fantasies, and etc. This marriage would not make it. Of course they lived a lie, a secret. When it came down to the two of them living a life of bills, demands, who is going to control the money, etc. there would be disharmony. I was told many times to my face by my stbx that he never loved me, he even posted here on MB, he never loved me, he only loves the other woman. I asked him would you want one of our boys to marry a woman like she is. I don't want my boys being near a woman like she is. A lier, a deceitful person, a sexual bomb, a woman that basically is mentally ill, and this woman told me on the phone that she thinks she is mentally ill, her counselor told her she is mentally ill, and that mental illness runs in her family. This is another story. But the love is not real, it is a fantasy love, and if you were to separate the two of them and find out what they saw in each other, and what they would picture their future like, you would find different stories.

They don't see the person as a real person, only as a fantasy of what they would like a marriage to be like. They would not see the real person for who they really are. Like my H saw the OW as a very wonderful person. He doesn't know that she lied to him, lied to her family, lied to her friends. This is the person the wayward spouse wants <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

THe true love is not love they are experiencing, it is fantasy and fantasy only. They don't know up from down. They are wishwashy in their brains and wishwasy in their actions. Keep asking questions, and you will find answers here.

Hi Libbie,
I think they truly believe they are in love but it is not a real love. What they are doing is new, dangerous, exciting, etc., etc. Their relationship is built up in their heads by the excitement of their secret liaisons. Once the affair is out in the open, the excitement is gone and they are forced to deal w/ the reality of their feelings. When my H left, he told me that Julie was his soulmate and they had so much in common and could talk about anything. A few months after he had been living with her I asked him if he was happy, he replied "I haven't been truly happy in quite a long time". (of course, I had to ask then why are you still living there!!...just a little LB, but an obvious question to ask!)
Hope you are feeling better today!

I can't speak as a WS, just a BS. My H was SURE he was madly in love with is OW (my former best friend). He would have done anything to be with her, lose his business, his religion, family, etc. Well, now he looks back and realizes it was NOT love at all. Just selfish infatuation. At the time he could only see all of her strengths, very lopsided thinking. Now he knows it would have never lasted and he can't believe all of the awful things he did and said to me.

He will live with the guilt all of his life, knowing he broke my heart and destroyed my trust.

I suppose there is a very small % of these affairs that turn into lasting relationships. I know that the OW's H told me during their affair that he married her out of guilt, as he had been with her when she was married to H #1. He lived with her and helped to break up that marriage. His feelings for her had changed but he was 'in too deep' so he made a mistake and married her. She is now divorced from him also. 2 divorces by the age of 28, very sad.

I've heard that about 5% of affairs lead to lasting relationships. How can a relationship built on lies, betrayal, etc. ever last?

Came by to check on an old friend and this post just drew me in.

Although I realize you guys don't know who I am, I have to agree with the other sorta "oldies" up there (sorry, guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). May not be the same for all....everyone's different, but Robert was absolutely in love with PT. For those who don't know, he left us to be with her, planned a wedding, a new home, taught her child to call him "daddy", opened joint checking, cc accounts. He loved her and believed he always would.

I believe those feelings were very real, just like the ones I had for Kristin's father (my ex), he had for his first fiance, our first loves. Just as he fell in love with me in the beginning. Very, very real. To think otherwise I believe is an insult to him. Those feelings were strong enough to make a wonderful man abandon (for a while) everything he'd ever cared about or believed in... me, Kristin, his friends, family's approval, his self-respect. Absolutely real. Not necessarily lasting, not necessarily capable of growing, but real. And, no, it doesn't bother me in the least.

It's ok. Real or not. We've learned how to protect our marriage, to protect and cherish each other. It doesn't matter to me that he loved her any more than it matters that he loved Lisa before me....well, if you don't count that he picked a dumb time to do it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Understanding the depth of his feeling is one of the things that made it easier for me to forgive.

And no, he doesn't love her any longer. (He loves me, me, me, me, ME!!) But he does have very fond feelings for her wee one, even though he hasn't seen her in a couple of years. She touched his heart, too. And that's ok. I'd expect it to be like that. He's like that. That's one of the reasons I love HIM.

Lori

I think the feelings they have for the OP are real too, I mean it doesn't make sense to have "fake" feelings. I also believe that they may feel aspects of romantic love for each other. Maybe there are different kinds of love? But I just don't think it is really love, or at least healthy love. I just can't believe that a good and healthy love can be present when it involves lying and manipulating, betraying another person, and living a secret life that's not in the open and facing REAL life, everyday issues. Is this what you meant Bramble Rose and Marie? Because I do think everything they are feeling is real, I just don't think it's based in reality. I think their perceptions are whacked!

YEs, I think that the feelings are real. The man that I married wouldn't have left if he didn't feel that way. SOmetimes I can't believe that he is in the small percentage of men that stay with OW. I thought he would be home within a week. I do believe.....and will never waiver from the fact that he still loves me. I know it's in there.....he needed to be reminded of it....but he got in so deep.....when you move someone 1200 miles to be with you....she transfers to your office and she sets up roots in your town.....you are in too deep!

I just hope that the lies, cheating....and all of the guilt with just keep coming for him. I know that this all bothers him....he told me a few months back that he doesn't sleep at night. Good. I hope it bothers him.....always. He didn't do the right thing.That's all there is to it. He hurt his children deeply.....so I hope it eats away at him. I also hope he gets sick of being with her 24 hrs a day.

It's been a year.....I am expecting a wedding soon.....but she hasn't even met my kids yet.

yes, that's my point although I think I am not expressing it well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What I am trying to say/ask, is that I think the feelings the WS are having are real, but they are misguided and not true and honest love. Although I agree that they do have aspects of love, like infatuation, romance, etc. Maybe I am too idealistic but I just don't understand how a WS and OP are feeling true and honest healthy love, when they are hurting others beyond recognition, breaking promises, and the foundation of their relationship is based on lies and hurt. I agree they feel something real, and it feels like love, but how can it REALLY be love? How can love be like that? That's what I am trying to ask.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe I am too idealistic but I just don't understand how a WS and OP are feeling true and honest healthy love, when they are hurting others beyond recognition... I agree they feel something real, and it feels like love, but how can it REALLY be love? How can love be like that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear Libbie--

REAL LOVE can be "like that" because we don't all view love in the same way.

I imagine that the reason you are having difficulty grasping that their love is/was valid, is because you are using your own concept of what "real love" is AND attempting to apply your definition to them. Perhaps, you have naively allowed yourself to believe that we all place the same VALUE on love-- unfortunately, that just isn't true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

Perhaps, your H and his OW have never loved deeper than the infatuation stage. Perhaps they do not know or understand (or have never experienced??)the complexities of mature love...

...for surely, if they possessed a deeper understanding of love, they would be able to "see" that true love is selfless and does not cause others harm.

Peace, ~Marie

I believe that most people involved in an affair are truly in love, especially those involved in a long term affair.

Marriage doesn't suddenly render a person incapable of having feelings for someone else. It's ridiculous to assume that just because a MM or MW met someone while they were married that the love is invalid. Would it not be true that had they met at the "right time", their love would be seen as real?
Emotions don't follow the rules, as much as we would like them to, they simply don't. We humans have been given a great gift - the capacity to love and love we do. Thank God for it because for without it we'd be screwed.

I find it fallible to say that "affair love" is based on lies because the lies are in the marital relationship. The relationship in an affair is based on the same things that normal relationships are based on except they start under an unfortunate and hurtful situation,

I think denying that true love is involved in many affairs is a defense mechanism - no one wants to believe that their spouse loves another person. But I think it is incredibly important to realize that the spouse involved in the affair suffers tremendously when they lose this love when the affair is over. Understanding and accepting this
will only help the healing process. I am not diminishing the pain of the Bs at all, just stating that knowing what the other person is going through is just as important.

OK. I'm an OW so I don't know how appropriate this is (I'm on this board as I'm trying to work through ways to extricate myself from an EMA) But as you are asking for honest insight into the relationship between MM and OW - here goes.

YEs - MM and I are romantically in love. Deceit aside - these feelings can develop genuinely between two people outside an M.
The intent has to be there - especially on the part of the MM - but the evolution of the relationship is organic - just the same as it was in the original courtsip phase between H and W.

He says he feels like a 'newlywed' again when he's with me. he sees the possibility and potential in life, feels excitement (both sexual and emotional) and feels like a strong, attractive, desirable, interesting, potent man again - something he has not felt in his M for a long time.

Yes there will be elements of infatuation in this mix but we've been close friends for a year and a half - so it is not a flash in the pan

However I would say the R with OW is not the same as the dynamic with W which has been tried and tested and built up over a number of years. You could say the M is and always will be the pyschically stronger bond - particularly if children are involved

BUT the feelings are just as powerful and seductive and most importantly REAL to both H and OW in an EMA. Don't underestimate this.

When alls said and done, marraige is no more than a social institution. Great passion and love (even if outside the M) transcend this whether any of this like to admit to it or not.

This is not a justification - but I honestly believe it is a harsh fact.
These boards are an absolute testimony to that.

I think you are right, Marie. Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I didn't realize that everyone has their own concept of love. I and maybe some other people think love has only one definition? I've prob. been trying to force my idea of love on my WS and convince him that it is not love he and the OW are feeling. Well, maybe it is to them. But I don't want to ever be part of that kind of love, because it is based in lying and betraying others. That is not love to me. But I will try and accept it can be for others.

If it's true that it is truly love, how come most affairs last 18 mos or less and so few become permanent arrangements? Affairs are fantasy based and when reality sets in, the party is often over.

I do think they are addictive, that you have to keep seeing the other person to get 'that high.' Last night my H was talking to some of his friends. One of them is totally obsessed with this girl who is not available. (and I truly believe that when she became available, he'd no longer want her, it's his pattern.) He said something to them that I thought was very profound. He told them that 'real love is not obsessive. It's not negative, it's positive. It's lasting and it should feel good, not bad.'

All that from a man who was in that obsessive cycle himself not too long ago. I guess he really did learn something after all!

I have seen MANY affairs in my lifetime. Very few of them have ever developed into anything, but they sure leave a lot of destruction in their wake. If you read the book about the Love Languages, you'll see that they are usually based on one type of 'love.' Is it real? I guess that depends on each individual situation.

I do know that in the bible it says "Love is not selfish." Since affairs are totally selfish, is that real love?