It is strange, but Dr. Harley himself says that the WS is and always will stay in love with his lover (His Needs Her Needs, ch.13 pg 177).

I agree with you Maggie Rose.........It is so complicated, argh! I think there are aspects of love found in affairs, and I read somewhere it is like the first stages of a legitimate relationship- the feeling of a "high" when you are around that person. I also read the honeymoon phase of a relationship can last for a couple years, and in affairs it can be much longer (which makes sense because they do not deal with everyday issues, also they are not with each other every day, etc). But what Marie wrote was really true I think- everyone's perception of love is going to be different. What we think is definitely NOT love, others may believe it is. I don't get it but I think that's true.

Double post

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: betrayed and desperate ]</small>

Unfortunately I have to agree also with the majority here; WS and OP are realy in love.
And how you can see some of them (liker my ex) stay in love with OP for a long time (probably forever), they can even make much better relationship than before, cause they have experience of former M , where they develop (made clear) what their needs and expectations of a M, are. They wouldn't repeat mistakes made before, and their new M can last forever.
Only my experience, sorry.
D

They can also build very nice relationship with kids from first M and influence to their relations with new kids.
And everything works even better than before.

Maggie Rose, I'm directing this one mostly to you. I've never posted on this board and I'm not sure I can respond directly under your last post.

If your going to use the logic that since affairs generally last less than 18 months, then is it the rule that love is never experienced in short term relationships? If I'm correct, more than 53% of marriages now end in divorce -true love?
I don't disagree that short term affairs and very brief affairs are usually not about a loving relationship.
Long term affairs are a VERY different subject.

Generalizing in such a dangerous thing - it closes the mind and really keeps one from considering very real possibilities.

Yes some affairs are fantasy -a hell of alot of'em aren't. I wouldn't consider the hell that people in affairs live through "a fantasy". Personally, love is one of the only things I'd ever agree to go through hell on earth for.

This is really interesting, hearing all these different responses..........I appreciate hearing from WS and OP just as much as BS, so please don't take any offense to my opinons- I am on the other side! The thing is, if affairs are hell, the WS and OP have made a conscious decision to go through that! The BS has no say in the matter and is roped in against their will.

I think the problem is that people can fall in love (whatever that means!) all the time, but hardly anyone knows how to stay in love. I know there are some cases where WS and OP end up together and are happy, but this hardly ever happens. Dr. Harley says this (from all his experience and study), and so does pretty much everyone else who is a counselor and therapist. I've seen this information EVERYWHERE on the net. So it is really not a generalization. In my own life I've seen people i know have affairs right and left, and not one has ended up with the OP. A few have tried, and one was successful for several years and then it feel apart.

Again I am not telling anyone what they feel is not love because now I get that love means different things to different people. But I think there is something to the fact that almost all affairs die out, even the long-term. Don't know what it is exactly, but........and, even the long-term affairs that don't die out, why does the OP settle for that. TRUST me, if WS loved you he would leave the marriage, kids or not. I don't buy the "I'm staying for the kids" thing for a minute. It's just their excuse because they want the Spouse and the lover. I think the spouse and the OP BOTH deserve more.

I agree with the majority to some extent. There is real love involved in some affairs, just as there is not real love in some marriages. I believe each relationship a person has is unique and that it's possible to love more than one person. Acting on it's a different matter.

Guinevere said:
<strong>
I find it fallible to say that "affair love" is based on lies because the lies are in the marital relationship. The relationship in an affair is based on the same things that normal relationships are based on except they start under an unfortunate and hurtful situation,</strong>

I think that is so false and misleading for the simple reason that most married people involved in an affair are not only lying to their spouse, but they also lie to the OP. Any OP who believes that the MM or MW is being perfectly honest with them is only kidding themselves. Just my 2 cents.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When all's said and done, marriage is no more than a social institution. Great passion and love (even if outside the M) transcend this whether any of us like to admit to it or not.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great passion and the love felt towards an affair partner MAY transcend the "marriage love"-- for a time period-- but that's not to say that the love between the H and W is dead forever...

...which is why I chose the "profile signature" that I use, "Desire for one woman may momentarily eclipse love for another, and the eclipsed love can outlast the desire, so that a moment comes when the love is in full possession again, and the dead desire seems mere emptiness and degradation." ~F. J. SHEED

--or to phrase it a different way--
Desire for the OW may momentarily eclipse love for the W, and the wife can OUTLAST THE DESIRE, so that a moment comes when the love is in full possession again, and the OW seems mere emptiness and degradation.

My rebuilt marriage, and reconnection with the love of my life (H), is a true testament to that quote <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

BTW, I agree-- NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE POWER OF TRUE LOVE!

Peace, ~Marie

<small>[ August 25, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</small>

oh_my marie...

What you quoted...

I overheard my H tell OW on the phone he loved her... (yeah... I went ballistic) and it hurt for a long time... but, she faded. She LBd her lovebank to death...

Meanwhile... I learned from MB... I was steady... true... didn't lie to him... stayed focused on myself... our children... our marriage...

I used to wonder if the 'love bank' concept played into this a bit... after all... overtime, I had built up a pretty big account... sure it was overdrawn... but I was able to start building it up again w/ what I learned here and other places...

Now contrast that w/ the few months FWH and OW were 'in-love'... Once it saw the light of day... fantasyworld over... OW began to LB... and since her account was not as 'deep' as mine... and mine was building back up... well, hopefully you can see where I am going...

It helped me... gave me a visual to hold onto... and eventually... totally unprompted by me... almost a year to the day that he moved out last summer... he said "I love you." ...and he keeps saying it...

Good to hear from so many 'oldies' on this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Cali

Guinevere-the 'hell that people in affairs' suffer is totally self-imposed. Sorry, I can't feel too sorry about that. Not only do they suffer this hell as you say, but they affect the lives of countless other innocent people, including children. If you look at the statistics on affairs, especially the ones that lead to divorce, you will see what a negative cycle it becomes. Even children who hated that their parents had affairs are much more likely to do it themselves.

If people in long term affairs are so much in love, why are they still married?

When you mention suffering here on Earth, don't forget that adultery breaks a commandment and may result in suffering after this life is over also.

When I first found this site I wouldn't have imagined that I could have empathy and understanding for WS and OP. But I do with those on this forum, because for them to just be here means they are sorry and have learned something, and many are doing everything they can to get their marriage back. I know BS have much to learn too so I don't ever want to come off as perfect, because I sure don't see myself that way!

I get now that my interpretation of what love is and what it isn't is my opinion and not fact. I have no doubt that many people having affairs feel they are in love, have found their "soulmate". I know they really must feel this way or they wouldn't risk all that they are risking. I personally don't believe this can be love, but if it is, it's not a kind of love I would ever want to be involved in. Affair love is just not comparable to love between two people who aren't already commited to another, and who don't sneak around, lie, betray, break vows, and ultimately shatter other people's lives. If it is love, fine, but this kind of love is not HEALTHY and it hurts people. And statistics show it hardly ever lasts.

I'm sory to G. but I also disagree with your comment that the WS and OP are being honest with each other and the lies are in the marriage, so the affair is not based in lies and deceit. Even if the WS and OP were 100% honest to each other, which I don't believe for a minute, the point is the WS has already made a lifelong commitment to another. Unless they divorce, the only way for an affair to take place is by breaking vows, lying and deceiving others, and the relationship starts on that premise. The WS breaks the vows and the OP stays and condones the behavior. How is this relationship NOT based in lies and betrayal?????? Just because they are not lying to each other? they are lying to everyone else! The only way their relationship can function is through lies! this is the foundation for the affair- lie and sneak around for relationship to exist at all!

I also wondered from people more experienced on this forum and with MB if the feelings the WS feels is not so much love but that "high" people talk about- like an affair is really an addiction. Can an addiction be love? And I also forgot to write earlier that it seems that if it is love, it is a very selfish love. Not only because the lovers pursue a relationship recklessly at others' expense, but it ust seems they are out to satisify their own feelings. A lot of people here say their WS tell them things like "She makes me feel young again", "I feel like I'm starting over with him", "I love the feeling I get with him". This doesn't sound so much like love to me, but more like WS is trying to make themselves feel better about deficiencies they feel about themselves and their life. Like getting old, getting bored, not feeling attractive or wanted anymore. It seems to me the OP is really just filling a role that many could fill. They represent "freedom and new beginnings". An escape. While I STILL know that my idea is love is not necessarily others, I'd like to know from those who responded to my post that is true or real love in an affair, why they think this when even they believe it is mostly fantasy, and lies. I am trying to understand your point of view.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong> A lot of people here say their WS tell them things like "She makes me feel young again", "I feel like I'm starting over with him", "I love the feeling I get with him". This doesn't sound so much like love to me, but more like WS is trying to make themselves feel better about deficiencies they feel about themselves and their life. Like getting old, getting bored, not feeling attractive or wanted anymore. It seems to me the OP is really just filling a role that many could fill. They represent "freedom and new beginnings". An escape. While I STILL know that my idea is love is not necessarily others, I'd like to know from those who responded to my post that is true or real love in an affair, why they think this when even they believe it is mostly fantasy, and lies. I am trying to understand your point of view.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, I think that short term and long term affairs have 2 totally different dynamics. Short term affairs (under a year) often seem to be based on infatuation, which can easily be confused with love. I can remember thinking "I am so in love with my new boyfriend, he's my dream man" and 6 months down the road thinking "Yuck, what was I thinking."
My husband really did think that he was in love with the OW in the beginning. He was depressed and having a mid life crisis. He needed somethign to make him feel alive again, and what's better for that than a new relationship. A new relationship actually alters your brain chemicals. Giving you a temporary high. Something that clinical depression definitely takes away. an emotional band aid. Covers up the problem, but doesn't really treat anything. Then he moved in with her. Suddenly the fantasy became reality and it wasn't so fun anymore. Her hero worship became desperate neediness. Her irresponsible party lifestyle (which he was drawn to, to "feel young again") became empty and pointless. Suddenly she had complaints and demands. It was about how she made him feel in the beginning. She could have been pretty much anyone who was young, made it clear that she was infatuated, lived a lifestyle that he lived while he was in college (exact words "I want to live life like when I was in college") and made him feel like things were going to be casual and easy, with no responsibilities expected of him. But of course that wasn't real. She expected a LOT from him. She wanted a Daddy for her kid, to live in a nice house, to not have to work, for him to pay for her to go to college (she told me all of this stuff). She seemed to forget that he already had a wife. She was supposd to be the anti-wife. My polar opposite. Indeed she really did turn out to be my polar opposite, but not in the way he wanted or expected. She was supossed to worship him, agree with anything he said and not make waves. Oops.
While she was starting to whine and make demands I was at our home Plan Aing. That's when he really began to see how "real" our love was and that he had made a mistake. What we had wasn't dependent on infatuation. Of course it started out that way, it always does, but over the years it had become something much deeper. Based on common goals, shared interests, plans we'd made together, dreams (reality based dreams). Based in truth and honesty, not built on the pain of anyone else. In my opinion REAL love doesn't happen until a couple has been together for a long time. After the infatuation fades (it always does, it's a biological fact) and it becomes attachement. When the infatuation goes you are either left with nothing, or with a real bond. That's what real love is. It was that bond that brought us back together. It had never really gone away. Now it is stronger than ever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Libbie6:
<strong>
I personally don't believe this can be love, but if it is, it's not a kind of love I would ever want to be involved in. Affair love is just not comparable to love between two people who aren't already commited to another, and who don't sneak around, lie, betray, break vows, and ultimately shatter other people's lives. If it is love, fine, but this kind of love is not HEALTHY and it hurts people. And statistics show it hardly ever lasts.

I'm sory to G. but I also disagree with your comment that the WS and OP are being honest with each other and the lies are in the marriage, so the affair is not based in lies and deceit. Even if the WS and OP were 100% honest to each other, which I don't believe for a minute, the point is the WS has already made a lifelong commitment to another. Unless they divorce, the only way for an affair to take place is by breaking vows, lying and deceiving others, and the relationship starts on that premise. The WS breaks the vows and the OP stays and condones the behavior. How is this relationship NOT based in lies and betrayal?????? Just because they are not lying to each other? they are lying to everyone else! The only way their relationship can function is through lies! this is the foundation for the affair- lie and sneak around for relationship to exist at all!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree. An affair is based in lies, period. Unless of course the WS has gone to the BS BEFORE becoming involved at all with the OP and says "Honey, I want to be honest with you. I am possibly going to have an affair, my friendship with this person is definitely heading towards inappropriate behavior. I will keep you informed of further developments." I don't think I've ever heard of that happening. It always involves sneaking around and lying to someone. I also think it's once in a blue moon that the OP gets the real "truth" from the WS. Our exOW thought she knew my H so well, and that up until almost the very end he'd been totally honest with her. She was pretty surprised to find out that almost every word that came out of his mouth to her was a lie. He didn't even tell her the correct number of siblings he has! For awhile though he even believed a lot of his own lies ("my wife never really loved me, she is glad that I moved out"), that's all part of the fog. Part of trying to take responsibility and avoid guilt.
I would never want to be a part of that kind of "love" either. I want the person I am with to be proud to be with me. To be seen in public with me, to introduce me to his friends and family, not to be afraid to go places because we might see someone. My husband would have been horrified to see someone who knew us when he was out with the OW. He never even told his coworkers that he wasn't living here, or that we were separated. He flat out lied when his childhood best friend asked him if he was having an affair. At least he never denied me to anyone except the person who was his dirty little secret. I don't have to be afraid to tell people how we met, or to gloss over any aspects of the beginning of our relationship. Yes we had problems, almost everyone does, but we had a strong foundation to rebuild on.

I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

Keep in my I am not generalizing - there is a big difference between a short term affair and a long term affair. The people involved in affairs, and the dynamics of the affairs themselves vary greatly. I'm discussing long term here.

There is so much pain on this board it is obvious that objectivity is almost impossible especially where the subject of love is approached. Understandable.

Yes affairs are wrong and I would never promote or condone them.

Dont "real" relationships also in the beginning, contain some of the same aspects as affairs?
Infatuation, glorifying the love interest, new feelings of being alive etc... and then comes the feelings of love. Why are these feelings suddenly not valid in affairs? Does marriage change the whole human body and brain? Are chemicals altered?
Do people become blind to the wonder and glory of other human beings? I don't get it. If this were the case, after the death of a spouse, a person would never truly experience real love again.

Keep in mind, many affairs evolve out of friendships - a realtionship where there was already respect, trust and admiration in existence. An already strong building block for a relationship - like what would be desired before a couple entered into marriage. Are these facts to overlook as well?

Are we not capable of loving more than one child, more than one friend, both parents? Why does the
possibility that a person could have love for another outside the marriage, seem so foreign? Because it's painful? Because of a man made (not biological) legal/before the eyes of God agreement? I don't think so.

Had the people involved in affair met before they were married to others, they would have had just
as good a chance at success as any couple.

Knowing your spouse loved another has to be painful. If denying it helps, more power to you .
However, I feel in doing so, another great disservice is also being added to all the other horrible offences.

Sorry for the typo - that would be offenses.

Dear Guinevere:

At this forum, we encourage and VALUE our marriages. We discourage inappropriate friendships between opposite-sex adults.

IMHO, love "belongs" between two consenting single adults and/or between two adults who are married to each other. It should never be given the opportunity to flourish between adults who are currently married to another-- and that is what's hard to understand.

The vast majority of us here believe that affairs are morally wrong.

I understand how this could be a very hard concept for some people to grasp-- especially those who do not value the sacredness of marriage, and/or God's laws.

Peace, ~Marie

<<I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

Keep in my I am not generalizing - there is a big difference between a short term affair and a long term affair.>>>

I do agree. I speak from the perspective of a BS whose WH had a 6 month affair. Most of the affairs I have had first hand experience with were under a year. If my husband's affair had been long term I doubt that I would be with him now. The main reason beign is that someone who could successfully weave an intricate web of lies and keep it going for years whould be frightening to me. Pathological, capable of anything.

<<<Dont "real" relationships also in the beginning, contain some of the same aspects as affairs?
Infatuation, glorifying the love interest, new feelings of being alive etc... and then comes the feelings of love.>>>

No one is denying that, (I don't think). it all starts out as infatuation. And IMO "real" love comes later. After the 2 people (not 3 people, not 4 people which is what affairs involve) have been together for quite some time, living a day to day ordinary life. Secret trysts, ugly discoveries, cover ups, lies, deceiving others to keep the relationship going, horrendous pain for at least one other person, making sure you only go certain places so as not to be seen etc do not count as "ordinary every day life". Drama can be a powerful aphrodisiac, but can rarely sustain a relationship in the long run.

<<<Why are these feelings suddenly not valid in affairs? >>>
Not saying they are never valid, but it seems to be the rarity (definitely rare for short term As). The main difference between an affair and a regular relationship is that it's not about 2 people. It's about 3 or 4 (heck, sometimes even more). The circumstances skew everything to an unnatural state.

<<<Keep in mind, many affairs evolve out of friendships>>>

Okay BS everyone in unison, you know the drill "No honey, I love you. There is no way I'm having an affair. We're just friiiieeennnnddds."

<<<- a realtionship where there was already respect, trust and admiration in existence.>>>

A "friendship" that is usually hidden from the spouse. A relationship that involves hurting others, a relationship that involves a tremendous amount of lies to at least one other person (and usually more than one).

<<<An already strong building block for a relationship - like what would be desired before a couple entered into marriage. Are these facts to overlook as well?>>>

Our relationship before marriage was NOTHING like the beginning affair relationship. The comparison makes me want to vomit. We weren't hurting anyone else, there were no lies, we were proud to let everyone know about our relationship, we didn't have to hide, we didn't need drama to thrive, we didnt' have to call each other with calling cards or make sure our cell phone bills went elsewhere, neither of us was going home to another person's bed and making up stories, no families were ripped apart by us being together, we didn't have to put our plans on hold until one of us could dump the person we vowed to be with forever.... etc etc.

<<<Had the people involved in affair met before they were married to others, they would have had just
as good a chance at success as any couple.>>>

Lol, this is funny because if my husband had been single and met the OW he still would have dated her, but it probably wouldn't have lasted a month. In the past he had always referred to women like her as "life ruiners" (looking for a guy with money to support her and her kid in the style to which she wanted to become accustomed). It was only the excitement and drama that kept it going for 6 months.

<<<Knowing your spouse loved another has to be painful. If denying it helps, more power to you>>>

A lot of this comes down to definitions of love. I don't believe that people truly "love" someone for 6 or 8 months, or even a year. That's just infatuation that wore off. Real love ebbs and flows, but it always comes back. Real love is what remains long after the infatuation is gone. My husband did feel that he loved the OW in the beginning, I'm not denying that. But within 2 months he started doubting that "love" and thinking that he made a mistake. Which is usually how infatuation progresses. Not all infatuation leads to love by any means. Probably most of it doesn't. Then again, I think my definition of love is a lot deeper than a lot of people's. I've dated men who I told "I love you" and thought I did. But when the infatuatiuon wore off I realized I'd never loved them at all. We had nothing in common, nothing to base a lasting relationship on, no lasting chemistry etc. Just because I briefely felt that it was real, or told them that I loved them didn't make it so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ohmy_marie:
<strong>Dear Guinevere:

At this forum, we encourage and VALUE our marriages. We discourage inappropriate friendships between opposite-sex adults.

IMHO, love "belongs" between two consenting single adults and/or between two adults who are married to each other. It should never be given the opportunity to flourish between adults who are currently married to another-- and that is what's hard to understand.

The vast majority of us here believe that affairs are morally wrong.

I understand how this could be a very hard concept for some people to grasp-- especially those who do not value the sacredness of marriage, and/or God's laws.

Peace, ~Marie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great post Marie. I have learned the hard way that there are an abundance of people who have no respect for anyone else's marriage.I always did when I was single, I guess I'm weird lol. If they see something they want they go for it and don't give a rat's [censored] who gets hurt as long as it isn't them (and that usually backfires).
The really ironic thing is that on the rare occasion that one of these people actually "gets" the object of his/her desire, and they in turn get cheated on, they have no problem crying the blues. They don't seem to appreciate beign betrayed either. Shouldn't they be "setting him free to follow his heart" and wishing him peace and happiness with his new "soulmate" (and some people seem to find a soulmate under every rock)? It sure never happens that way.

I understand the high level of feeling attached to these postings - on both sides. And I also understand this is a board which aims to preserve, sustain and in times of crisis re-build marraiges.

But essentially I have to agree with Guinivere.

Although the dynamics of an EMA will always differ from a pre-marraige courtship in respect that one (or more) of the partcipants is already committed (an I use this term loosely here, as a truly committed man, heart and soul, would never dream of being unfaithful )

But that does not alter the quality of the feelings which develop between the two people. It just affects the circumstances and freedoms to express this love/infatuation/friendship openly before the rest of society.

Marraige is an institution. One essentially intended to protect the structure of our society.
Marraige is not a guarrantee of continued, lifelong love and devotion. Those are just man-made words which attempt to keep us in line as a society.

Women find this truth much harder to come to terms with than men generally - as they have the most to lose through abandonment.
Hence the higher levels of anger and bitterness expressed here. It equates directly with the perceived sense of 'loss'

The vows of monogamy go directly against the primal grain of what we really are about as human beings - particularly for men.
You can argue all you want about 'willpower' and 'moral codes' but monogamy is NOT a natural state.
To attempt to honour this idea requires a denial of a strong emotional and sexual need for variety.

We have an inbuilt capacity to love and desire many people whilst we are alive - and that does not diminish with age. It is not difficult to see how an individual in a stale marraige may be overwhelmed with the desire to have and to hold another.
Life is too short for regrets - and yes, every decision we make has risk attached.

It's a personal judgement call that every MM and MW eventually has to take, when confronted with an OP they suddenly realise they truly desire and want to be with.
None of us can forsee the future so at that split second in time - we don't know whether our love for this new person will last 10 months, 10 years or forever. Theres only one way to find that out for sure - the hard way.