I am not for one minute condoning affairs nor am I downplaying the sanctity of marriage.

I'm a little offended that because I voice the opinions I have, that I am immediately considered someone without respect for marriage.

Why are all male/female relationships outside of the marriage considered inappropriate. I have had many male friends where there was absolutely no sexual interest or inappropriate contact. My husband has female friendships as well that are completely acceptable. These friends have made our lives richer and I pity those that discount the value of different sex friendships out of fear, jealousy and insecurity and sexist misconceptions.

My only point in all of this is that real love can and does exist in many affairs. Acknowledging this, in some instances could only help the BS realize all the dynamics involved thereby enabling a much more thorough healing.

When I said the beginnings of a normal relationship and an affair had similarities I meant the feelings and stages only. Of course it's hidden and there is sneaking and lies - but the feelings remain unchanged by the situation.
Emotions do not follow societal code.

One last thing. I'm not ready to post my story on this board, perhaps soon I will. But if I don't, I hope this last message is received with the same respect in which it is posted. Very good, honorable people make very bad mistakes - part of human nature. One mistake, one affair DOES NOT DEFINE an individual. For everyone that thought their wayward spouse was wonderful before the affair can probably assume they're still wonderful after the affair. Life is messy, the flesh is weak - forgiveness is divine.

Best wishes and peace in your marriages.

"Emotions do not follow societal code."

I agree !

Good moral principles DO follow that societal code ... which is why we have our moral compass to lead us back from where our emotions may want to mis-lead us.

Emotional reasoning---> not a great adult way to make important life decisions.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hi there,

Do I think the feelings they have for each other are 'real'? Absolutely!

I'm a WS.....and I can tell you...even allowing for the 'fog effect'...most WS's had real feelings for their OP's. It's like Harley says in his book on Affairs (SAA?) - it is very much about getting EN's met. You meet someone..and your love bank has no deposits from your spouse..and hasn't had any in a long time (heck, I think mine was overdrawn...just like my real bank accounts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) - when the OP starts making deposits in our love bank over and over...the 'feelings of love' start to come naturally. I guess many on here would even say that love is not so much a feeling as it is a decision.

My OM put so many deposits in my love bank...it just took my breath away. I was separated at the time...and yes, I had planned to marry him as soon as I was able. Just months before I had decided when I divorced I would never ever marry again. I had no idea how vulnerable I was to the first person who would meet my EN's.

Now - here is the other side...when 2 people are involved in an A....they are for the most part having a relationship that exists inside a bubble...i.e. without the full impact of reality..and the day to day problems that all couples have. This allows for those love banks balances to rise higher..and higher..and higher. I think almost all relationships are like this in the beginning.

Remember when you first started dating someone and you put your best foot forward? Trotted out all your polite manners...? I remember trying to eat daintily...and very very little on my dates so that my date wouldn't think I was a pig...and man, did I go hungry sometimes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> After you've dated for a while...the deposits are still building..and you think "hey, I really like this person!"...they make you 'feel good' when you are around them (just like OM did for me). Eventually it turns to feelings of love..you go off, get married..and then...slowly but surely..reality creeps in...he starts to do as many sweet things for you, you find out he snores so loud you can't sleep through the night...he leaves the cap off the toothpaste, etc. etc.
Then..usually kids enter the picture..sleepless nights...stressed parents...snapping at each other..and wondering.."why the heck did I marry this person"...

In most A's...the WS and the OP are still in the 'honeymoon' stage...they haven't had the usual outside influences of life to stress and test their relationship to see if the feelings of love will hold...or will they fold....

Never ever underestimate the feelings a WS has for an OP..even if it truly is infatuation. You can't convince a WS that what they are feeling won't last...(not that this is what you are trying to do)....it is a process that they are going to have to go through and unfortunately...most BS's are hostage to the process. In time the WS will discover for themselves whether the love they had can withstand reality...but what they are risking is...will it be too late if they decide to forfeit the OP and return to their BS. It is a very big risk...for a potentially huge loss. The BS is..and almost always will be...(if they are willing to work on the M) in a better position to meet a WS's EN's than an OP ever will be.

Hope this helps some...

Regards,

YR

"Very good, honorable people make very bad mistakes - part of human nature. One mistake, one affair DOES NOT DEFINE an individual. For everyone that thought their wayward spouse was wonderful before the affair can probably assume they're still wonderful after the affair. Life is messy, the flesh is weak - forgiveness is divine."

Very wise. I am impressed.

Lori

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YellowRose:
<strong> You can't convince a WS that what they are feeling won't last...(not that this is what you are trying to do)....it is a process that they are going to have to go through and unfortunately...most BS's are hostage to the process. In time the WS will discover for themselves whether the love they had can withstand reality...but what they are risking is...will it be too late if they decide to forfeit the OP and return to their BS. It is a very big risk...for a potentially huge loss. The BS is..and almost always will be...(if they are willing to work on the M) in a better position to meet a WS's EN's than an OP ever will be.
YR</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pretty much agree with this. This is why I didn't seek out proof of my husband's affair. I confronted, he lied and denied (which I expected). Even when he moved out he swore up and down that he was not having an affair, he just wanted to be alone. I decided to treat the affair as a symptom. Treat the infection and the pustulent boil will go away. I threw myself into Plan A. Tried to help him with his depression, was totally suportive, no pushing. Trying to get proof of the A to throw in his face would have served no real purpose and wasted my precious energy. At first my efforts were met with hostility (typical).
About 2 months after he moved out he came over one night to get something, still acting very irritable. I didn't push anything, but before he left I asked for a hug. To my surprise he came over and hugged me, and held on tight for a long time. Then he said "Thanks for being here for me, I just need some more time. I know I'm messed up right now." The next morning I got a call telling me how much he missed me and how he was pretty sure he made a terrible mistake. That started the ball rolling. The next 4 months were a roller coaster, but he ended the affair becasue he wanted to, not because he was forced. He had convinced himself that I truly didn't know (I didn't know all the details, but I had a pretty good idea). He came back because he wanted to. When he was ready to admit that he had depression it was ME that he came to for help, not her. Even when he originally left he said "No one will ever know me like you do." That held true. But that was part of his reason for leaving (he said). He wanted to be tabula rasa. For awhile he was able to create a fictional character and live that characters life, I called that character "Party Boy" lol. I never got to know Party Boy, nor did I want to, and the OW never got to know the man I married. Thankfully "Party Boy" wasn't a long lived entity, and he died an untimely death. Cause of death - Realizing he was a 35 year old man pretending to be a 21 year old.
I was right, once we dealt with the underlying infection the symptoms cleared up and he never felt forced to do anything. it was all of his own free will. And I am a better person for Plan A too. Our relationship is quite different than before. We never had communication like we do now, H ha made huge strides in his conflict avoidance issues, neither of us have unrealistic expectations that life is perfect with no effort. As horriblke as it was, the affiar was a catalyst for something better than either of us ever expected.

LostVA - Thank you.

Really great posts- I don't know if a few were meant to be directed at me, but I just want to say once again-

I DO believe the WS feelings are real. How can a feeling not be real?

I do believe that WS and OP can definitely experience romantic love (what some people described as first stages of any relationship). I do believe they can develop a true emotional attachment.

I do believe that a spouse can feel sexual desire and passion for another person. Everyone does.

However, I DON'T believe the feelings WS and OP have are generally based in reality. It's mostly fantasy.

I don't believe that this kind of love is healthy, because it is based in lying and hurting others, intentional or not.

I also think this kind of love is selfish, because the relationship is at other people's expense and pain. If you have an attraction to someone fine, but to say you can't control yourself is a pathetic excuse. If you can't control your actions you need to get serious help (BTW I am not directing this towards anyone on this board, seriously! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I don't believe that the WS and OP are being completely truthful towards each other, either, in a vast majority of cases.

I do think the OP is really playing a role for the WS, and many people could fill this role. The WS has a need or want to be met, and whoever is around to meet it becomes the OP.

I also think we will never come to a conclusion over whether affairs can really be love or not because everyone will have a diff. opinion! But there MUST be a reason(S) why almost all affairs fizzle and hardly ANY and up in a lasting relationship or marriage. As a BS, the first couple months I DID not want to consider the possibility that my WH could love someone else. But know I consider it and while it sucks, I know I can live with it. Partly because I believe that even if it's love, it's certainly not a healthy, deep, mature and lasting love that could stand on it's own two legs. So that's a kind of love I can do without, and all the best to my WH if in the end he decides to pursue it!
This is such a great site- I think I have gotten a lot stronger and gained much perspective on all sides of the issue! Thanks!

If you take a look in SAA, Harley makes the point that with A's, once the infatuation / romantic love is gone, there's nothing left to support it... no commitment, no agape love, no respect, no real solid foundation. To build those things, you need to be able to look at your R partner and KNOW in your heart that it's right and good and fair and just and true and honest and SELFLESS. To show selfless love, the giver has to be OUT of any selfish mindset they may hold. I think many A's start to suffer when the participants start getting tired of being selfish, and start to realize that this wonderful person they've been giving and giving to has been taking and taking - quite selfishly themselves. I think you get some serious friction in A's because of this - if OP doesn't meet expectations... I mean, why throw it all away for someone who isn't going to truly do any better than BS in the end??

As for monogomy... It's interesting that nearly all cultures - past and present - have some concept akin to marriage. Sure, not all look like our Western view, but most have them in some form. The concept of commitment is good to help our children survive - and at very, very, very least, that should be a good enough reason to promote its value, no matter how contradictary to biology. Sure, times have changed and women can take care of themselves much more easily (less threat of death!), but there's plenty of other value that could take up another whole thread.

Just my opinions fwiw.

In the Monogamy Myth, which is a GREAT book in my opinion, the author writes that the argument over whether we are "made" to be monogomous or not is completely fruitless. there can be no answer. Contrary to the title, the book is not about why monogamy is not normal. It is about the perception in this country that most marriages are monogamous when in truth the majority of them experience infidelity. She says much of this is NOT because we are not meant to be monogamous, but because we have misconceptions about what is and what it is not. And that lust, romantic "love" is commonly mistaken for true love and being soulmates. The spark will ALWAYS go out in any relaitonship, over a long period of time. It will then come and go. But most people feel when this spark is gone that the love is gone, look for an affair, believe it is true love, sometimes go so far to marry or live with the OP, and once enough time passes- Oops! Spark is gone again. ust not be in love anymore, and hence the cycle.......very interesting book.

Libbie6 -

You reminded me of some really key points about this whole thing that I forgot. I have myself pondered all of these points on many a night..

Your first point: "However, I DON'T believe the feelings WS and OP have are generally based in reality. It's mostly fantasy"

Absolutely correct...they are not based in reality..which is what makes the feelings so dangerously addictive and attractive.

Another point you made: "I don't believe that this kind of love is healthy, because it is based in lying and hurting others, intentional or not."

It is not a healthy love..even in the most romantic of circumstances..anything that involves so much deception and hurt to others...is going to be tainted one way or another. Both parties (WS and OP) are embarking on a relationship where at least one of them (or both) betrayed vows to another person..and one of them..at the least..had no respect for the vows made to the WS's husband or wife. Also, the message it sends to any children involved on either side..is that vows and promises don't mean anything...and your own individual needs should always outweigh everything else...even if you destroy lives in the process. If you don't want to be married/stay married..then get a divorce and find someone else AFTER. I don't think the children will ever totally accept someone that they know their parent 'cheated with'. Heck...we spend years teaching our kids right from wrong..and to treat others well...and what did I do? I broke my vows and cheated on their father. What message does that send?

One other point you made: "I do think the OP is really playing a role for the WS, and many people could fill this role. The WS has a need or want to be met, and whoever is around to meet it becomes the OP."

I agree.

YR

YellowRose quoted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now - here is the other side...when 2 people are involved in an A....they are for the most part having a relationship that exists inside a bubble...i.e. without the full impact of reality..and the day to day problems that all couples have. This allows for those love banks balances to rise higher..and higher..and higher. I think almost all relationships are like this in the beginning. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think YR hit the nail on the head with this.

If you really look at it, a WS (and the OP) are in love with a "part" of someone. Nothing more. I have this opinion due to letting my WW talk about the OM in great detail and length (Don't know if I could do that again or not) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

My WW was telling me about all of his "finer" points, but also told me about the things she disliked about him. Some of them were the fact that he was EXTREMELY jealous. Told me that if he had his way, she would be in turtlenecks and ankle-length dresses. I know, after being with her for 15 years, she WOULD NOT go for that. She is just 32, but looks every bit of 22. Although she never dressed what I would call provocatively, she didn't dress extremely conservative, either.

Anyway, the point being, since their R was of the A type, and they actually had no vows for each other, there wasn't a whole lot that they were going to ask of each other. At least, trying to look at it through the OM's eyes, he wasn't about to mess up a good thing. Since he was the jealous type, I would bet the farm that if they were M, or in a non-secretive R, that my WW would have been hearing his complaints quite frequently.

Another thing she spoke about was his greediness. Said he was the kind that if you didn't really need it, you weren't gonna have it. Case in point here is HIS vehicle was an expensive new one, and his W's was an old beater. My WW wouldn't stand for that, either.

Anyway, any way you look at it, the WW and the OM's "in love" was based and founded without "ALL of the facts". They NEVER saw each other's true colors. Even the "true colors" that they saw of each other, they both knew that they didn't have to "live" with them.

I tend to see that as "halfway in love", if that much.

A lot of us BS's talk about an R being based on lies and deceit. They are very much. But...I will add...they are also looked at through rose colored glasses as well. The REAL lives are nowhere in their A.

HCII

Hi Yellow Rose- thanks for replying. i've read your post and I am sorry you are going through a hard time with the OM at work. I worry sometimes that I will offend the WS and FWS on this site because I feel so strongly about some things and also because as a recently BS I am quite bitter angry still ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But the truth is I find your posts really helpful understanding the other side, and like I wrote before I think the WS here are really good people who are trying to fix what happened. If my WS was like that I would feel so much better about the future of our marriage!

Anyway, glad I wrote some stuff that sort of (?) made sense to you. I'm pretty new at all this. Sometimes it's hard to hear opinions that are so different from your own, like my opinion about what is love and what is not. I still think affair love is not really love, but a close imitation. Or possibly romantic love (infatuation). I just can't wrap the notion around my brain that affair can be good and honest, true love- because it hurts so many and involves so much fantasy and lies. but something I needed to learn from this thread- that what the WS feels is very real to them. Maybe even IS real- to them. I guess we all have our own realities. Didn't want to accept that but I have to.
BTW what made me REALLY cement my opinion about affair love is the post in the archives by Broken But Not Crushed- A story of hope. I read it today- it was amazing and a real revelation/validation. it may make you feel more hope in your situation too, I would suggest reading it!

hcii, your reply struck a chord with me, too...

Talking about WW not only reciting OM's "superior" traits - but plenty of his flaws!

Of course, I was happy to listen to her talk about how he spits, how being M'd to a Dv'd woman would shame his family, how the Korean community would look down on them, how he wants to move back overseas when his studies are done, how he's penniless, how he doesn't speak English all that well, how he's shown streaks of being a controller (woah! that won't go over well at all!!!), etc., etc....

So for all the rosiness in their bubble, reality isn't all that far away, and I honestly believe that's what's saved my butt... more than any "Plan A" I could ever enact! Those built-in doubts have taken nearly a year to grow to the point where she may be getting ready to come down off the fence... we'll see.

I found my WS poll interesting... because not an overwhelming majority admit that the loss of fantasy destroyed the A... a much larger majority simply admitted that deep down, they KNEW it would not last... seems to indicate that irregardless of any "soul mate" thing going on, people can't hide from reality, no matter how hard they try. Those that don't "come back" - are truly lost souls.

Libbie6:

Nothing you have said has ever offended me..but I completely understand what you mean. As a WS I am always very very nervous that something I might say will hurt or offend a BS. Sometimes...it is really weird being a WS on here and reading the posts...I find myself getting all upset about what many of the BS's are going through..and what their WS's are doing....sometimes I'm like "I can't believe their spouse is doing that to them...how could they do something like that!!"...and then I think..."Oh wow, what am I saying...I did the same thing to my H!!"....It's still hard for me to understand how and why I could do what I did. In the end...there is no excuse/reason that makes it ok, all I can do now is try to pick up the pieces...make amends if I can...and stick to my vow to never be the cause of that much pain to another person ever again (not my H, my kids, my family, my church...or God).

I wish more WS's would come here..sometimes..and I can't fully explain this...we can see our spouses hurting..hear from them they are hurting..but reading the posts of BS's hammers it home over and over and over again. It would take a truly hardened heart to not be impacted by what you read here. The differing opinions are sometimes hard to hear..I am with you on that...but it sure makes you think...lol.

I will try and look for that post that you referenced in your last reply. It sounds interesting.

JR - I find the findings that you talked about in your reply fascinating. It was the same way for me...even during the 'high' of my A..something deep down inside of me...told me it would never last!

Hugs to you both,

YR

Unfortunately my WS is still harping on all the wonderful aspects of the OW, at first he said they are just friends (the universal red flag, right?) but recently he has said he thinks he loves her, what they have is so new and different and (excuse me while I vomit) special. I wish I could tell him about this website, and then he can see how stereotypically "special" his affair is with her. But I know this would be a LB so I just keep quiet. Ick.

Got in at the tale end of this thread..but it is interesting. I've always pretty much held with the belief taht if someone says it hurts..it hurts...if they say it's love..well to them, it is. Thing is..like someone else pointed out...feelings change..they're never static.

On Dday, when my partner said he loved the OW..I didn't question that at all..and in the next breath..when he said he loved me..again, no question. The bigger question was how I felt..and what was I going to do. Like most here..the shock at the time pretty much blew most logical thought out the window.

The only thing I read early on was to be the "safe" one for him to talk to..be his confidant..listen without judging or blowing up...ultimately that is what brought us back together.

I have patients that swear they love their partners..while having their bones set and stitches put in from the beating they just recieved..and I don't question their feeling..but I do wonder what was in their lives previously to make them equate violence with love.

Don't question the feeling..just know that it can change!
T

Twyla, you are oh so right! Feelings can change and do!

As a FWS, I will say that at one time I said that I loved the OM. Now, just the thought of him repulses me.

Having read this entire thread, I would say that I totally agree with most of it. Those feelings that I once had were real, but only because that is what I felt. They were not based on reality. There wasn't any real life involved with the A. It was all good times. There were no trials and tribulations of real life. It was infatuation. Pure and simple. But I called it love.

I now know that what I have with my H is love. That is because after everything we are still together. We are working on ourselves as individuals and on our relationship. We are working to make our life together better. That is love, in my opinion.

Something that has struck me time and again....No one ever explained the true meaning of "for better or worse". Unfortunately, I have had to learn the meaning of that phrase in the worst possible way and by my own hand. But I now understand it and know that I have the best. Even in the worst of times.

i am just coming out of an affair myself, yes, they could be completely in love. to have to break contact with my lover has been heart wrenching for both of us. i am curious about the fact of the initial " i should try to save my marriage" turns into resentment of my spouse as h eis keeping me now from the "other" one i love,the one who brings no arguements or complaints..............

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YellowRose:
[QB]Libbie6 -
<<< Also, the message it sends to any children involved on either side..is that vows and promises don't mean anything...and your own individual needs should always outweigh everything else...>>>>

Yep. I promise to .... unless I find someone I like better.

<<< If you don't want to be married/stay married..then get a divorce and find someone else AFTER.>>>

I know. Affairs are so incredibly gutless. If the marriage is really that bad then why does there have to be an OP sitting outside in the getaway car, revving the negine.

<<<I don't think the children will ever totally accept someone that they know their parent 'cheated with'.>>>>

I had a boss who eventually divorced his wife and was livign with the OW. Shortly after the divorce was final he ended it with her. He said "I looked at her and knew I couldn't be with someone who wasa willing participant in causing my family so much pain. Every time they see her it's like sticking a knife in them again." His ex wife and 3 kids despised her. Eventually he married someone he met later and they all got along great (including exW).

<<<<One other point you made: "I do think the OP is really playing a role for the WS, and many people could fill this role. The WS has a need or want to be met, and whoever is around to meet it becomes the OP.">>>

My best friend had an A about 7 years ago. The MM she described to me was not the person I met lol (I had to stop at her workplace one day). I was shocked. She described a knight in shining armor, the perfect man. I met a cheesy, polyester clad dork. He made a habit of winking at women. He was a cardboard cutout that she could project her idea of the perfect man onto. He could have been ANYONE. She also found out after the A that the man she "knew so well" had really been married 3 times, not twice.

I will also share a story that would be considered a "success" on the TOW board. Someone that I know left her fiancee for an OM. She knew the OM for a long time, they worked together (that desirable "foundation of friendship" that an OW mentioned earlier). It was a big mess at the time. They got married. They've been married for 3 years now and that marriage is hanging on by a thread. her H doesn't trust her at all because he "already knows she's a cheater". She admits that she is constantly tempted because she "wants to feel that excitement of someone new again" and it makes her feel "sad that I may never have that rush again". She also says that she knows he would forgive her, because if he was with her when she was cheating he obviously doesn't think it's that bad.
So much for a foundation including respect lol. i expect papers to be filed by Christmas.

These are exerpts from a love letter my FWH sent to his OW ... after D-day, I asked OW's H to read me the letter he found in her drawer .....

"Dearest ____,

I love you. The last few months have been very special to me. It seems like something out of a book. I can't get you out of my mind. I want to spend as much time with you as possible. But, because of the mortgage and the bills and the kids ... it conspires against us. My feelings are not going away.We care so much for each other and it keeps me warm and happy inside. It's nice to know that our feelings for each other is special. Something others never experience. I love you ."

Well .... he was madly, deeply in love when he wrote this .... So I would answer the thread question thus .... the feelings ARE real and ARE powerful. But, feelings are not reliable as building material for a long-haul R.

My favorite parts .... "My feelings are not going away." "It conspires against us." and "Something others never experience."

I did not discover the A until the feelings had dimmed .... and reality had raised it's ugly head ... OW told WH this was her 9th A.

oops! ...... so much for the "peas and carrots". LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So my point is .... feelings DO change. They HAVE to ... our brains cannot sustain that "high" indefinetly. Then, after the feelings change .... you have this normal, flawed person in front of you. That is why most of the time, marriages begun with an A collapse .... the feelings change and... what is the foundation of the relationship other than *feelings*?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />