Do you want to be married to a WS or loving spouse?

hm...... this is suppose to be a no brainer question but from the looks at the comments on this board, you just gotta wonder. As usual there is a lot of pain out there and sometimes, just sometimes the BS adds to the pain by tolerating the A, even enabling the A.

You think I am joking? Nope. I know because I did that, I enabled the A. Not intentionally but I did nonetheless. In fact until I could emotionally understand that point, I probably enabled that stupid A for at least 4 months after d/d.

Thus the above question. I sure would hate to see other BS' fall into the same trap. However, our emotional makeup may make us do this for a while but maybe some of us here will now have the strength to stop enabling the A by taking control back of our lives and not fuel the A fire anymore.

How does a BS enable the A or continue to be married to the WS instead of a loving spouse?

1. Wait for the WS with baited breathe.
2. Plan your life around the WS and their ever changing schedule.
3. Allowing the WS to walk all over you
a. Not requiring the WS to commit to a schedule for visiting with the children.
b. Paying for the WS' bills and A expenses.
c. Giving the WS whatever they ask for (new car, new house, separate house, vacations, etc. )
d. Accepting the blame from the Ws no matter how dumb it sounds.
e. Letting the WS threaten the BS into silence.
f. Allow the WS to threanten the BS and family.
g. Tell the Ws that the BS will always wait for them. No matter what.
h. Allow the WS to bully the BS and others.
i. Allow the Ws to be a cakeman (or woman)
j. One way street on meeting needs. BS meets some of the needs of the Ws while the WS tries hard not to meet any needs or requests of the BS. In fact the more the BS asks, the less the WS does.

How to be married to a loving spouse?

See if you can tell the difference between the BS and the Xws.

1. Meet the needs of the spouse
2. Meet the needs of the family.
3. Puts the needs of others ahead of their own (in a reasonable manner).
4. Accepts blame for their own mistakes and works on preventing those mistakes in the future.
5. Is proactive and in tune to the family's needs.
6. Makes plans with the family and for the family.
7. Encourages love and laughter.
8. Shows by word and deed that they love their family.
9. Defends the honor of their family.

These are my thoughts. But sometimes during plan A and B, while the A is still going on the BS tries harder to be married to a WS. If this is true, then why would a deranged fog headed WS want to stop being a WS? They have their cake with the icing!!! Something that should be reserved for the loving spouse.

Yet their are loving spouses out there getting the bum rap from ungrateful WS.

Why why why?!?!?!
JMHO,
L.

1.

Well said, Orchid!

BW

I, for one, am definitely guilty of this. And for almost two years!

But I do remember in my many sessions counseling with SH mentioning this to him. He stated that it wasn't really that I was letting her walk all over me. I was to remember that I was the one who had a plan (A) and a goal. My problem is that I got so set in my ways that it became a way of life.

I do think, unfortunately, that some of these points you make have to be tolerated as part of Plan A. But there should be limits or boundries.
However, I'm left wondering just how you do that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

excellent point orchid-i think some of it is tolerated in the beginning because of shock and ptsd symptoms. this was my case-i am however stronger now and will not tolerate the same anymore.

Orchid,

You are so right.

While Plan A is really a way of life, after awhile, the BS has to either go to Plan B or tell the WS to get off the fence one way or another. As someone who did not do this, I can not begin to tell the people who weren't here spring of 2001 the pain I cost my family for letting my then WS set on the fence for so long. YOu know you were there, so was Ah (nice to see you it has been awhile).

sometimes letting this ride, only hurts more in the long run, it not only hurts the BS but it hurts the children involed more than I can begin to describe in words and I don't know how deep those scares run. Did I do my WS a favor, no I didn't?

Listen to the wisewoman ORchid.

Sing-

Nice to hear from you, too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'd like to throw this question out for some thought:

Is it OK to set boundries while you are still in Plan A and to what degree?

Keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is trying to set the Harley record for duration in Plan A! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Orchid,
I see your point and have 2 thoughts. One from my situation. When my H got involved with the OW, I was very content with our marriage, but in reality, I treated my H like one of the kids. I wasn't respectful of him, I wasn't a recreational companion for him (she was pre A), and when he got home from recreation, I ragged on him for being gone. In no way am I excusing his bad choices, or saying I deserved it, but I see what I did that led to his unhappiness with me, some of what weakened our marriage.

So in examination of myself, part of my Plan A was changing that whole aspect of me and showing my H I could be a better wife. If I'd simply kept busting him for being a cakeman...that was the same old, same old Lor that he wasn't sure he loved. He hadn't thought that I really loved him either.

2nd thing, comes from my counselor and is from the dreaded 1 Peter 3 chapter, being a Biblically good wife, which goes pretty well with Plan A. After a time of my being a good, though separated wife, my H couldn't blame me for all his trouble, at least his continuing trouble. I was supportive of him, compassionate. And, as my counselor said, it was like heaping coals on my H's head for me to actively love him while he behaved unlovably.

I know there are BS here on MB who were, or believe they were, exemplary spouses, and perhaps for them, enabling for a time is completely wrong. But I know I was flawed and had to take extra steps to overcome my pre A lousy, not-meeting-H's-EN behavior.

Doormat isnt good, but, at the same time, learnig how to love unconditionally, being Giver, was an exceptional growing experience for me. Later I needed the boundaries, some of which I probably should have set up earlier (regular visitation being one).

I think setting a goal and being clear about why you are doing what you are doing in Plan A, is important. And being willing to either go to Plan B or set a ending for Plan A because a BS can't deal with cakeperson behavior forever, even if, like in my case, it may make sense for a time.

Thanks to all that posted.

AH, good to hear from you.

Sing don't down yourself. We all did the best we knew how at the time. If we went back we probably would do the same again. Maybe not as long but that initial need to fix instinct is very strong. For those of us (me) that are a bit on the stubborn side (understatement about me - LOL!!) it takes a while. I think the point is that I wonder if we can help a few here so that they don't have to be in the doormat mode for as long as we did.

BW, may I make an obervation? Your name shows that your H is disrespectful to your and the marriage arrangement. Like all our WS' were/are. Not enabling the A puts their actions back on them. Allows us to distance ourselves from further pain (not completely but a lot less than being the doormat). I personally believe this can be accomplished even in the A.

Which takes me to AH's question. "Is it OK to set boundries while you are still in Plan A and to what degree?"

This is a good question. I think one frequently overlooked. In my very very short conversation with Steve way back when, he mentioned this. He encouraged me to set boundaries (in our 1st and only session). I wasn't really paying attention since our first session was less than 60 days after d/d and I was also dealing with a fako prego OW and lots of other pressure.

When I was able to see the forest for the trees, I recalled Steve's words. It made sense. If I had plan A'd better, I would have set boundaries. This means still talking with the WS but limiting what I would choose to do for him. For one, I should have stopped paying his bills completely (I was too afraid that the creditors would attach my wages - this was an unfounded fear - the creditors were willing to work with our situation).

One of my boundaries was to give the creditors the WS' cell # and next step was to give them the OW's phone number. Why should I let them stress me out? I thought sharing it was much better (since the WS did go to live with the OW for a while).

In a way, I did set 1 boundary during plan A, when the WS would get upset that I had informed his family, our elders and a few friends and accused me of getting the facts all wrong, I told the WS to go tell his side if I was saying something wrong. I encouraged him to tell the truth from the beginning. I did not make excuses for his actions. There were none to be made. I wondered about drugs and bi-polar disorders but I did not excuse him for his actions. He was to be held accountable for choosing to have an A.

So even when the OW threatened to call my work, said her H wrote a letter to my employer and she also threatened to call the police and have me thrown in jail for who knows what, I told her to go ahead. In fact, I invited her to do so. Of course, this showed that she was just a bunch of babble (hence her name PBR). This gave me strength. Now here was proof that I was not the crazy one. It brought back control and a bit of sanity to my life. It also kept me from wanting to do stupid stuff to them. ya know?!??!!? LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lor, your points are as always appreciated and well taken. No spouse is perfect. But I venture to say that none of us deserve the raw deal that the A throws in our faces. Yes, we do need to improve in our ways and this can be done in a loving way. However in our cases such was not to be.

My point of this thread was to bring out as you did at the end of your post: "I think setting a goal and being clear about why you are doing what you are doing in Plan A, is important. And being willing to either go to Plan B or set a ending for Plan A because a BS can't deal with cakeperson behavior forever, even if, like in my case, it may make sense for a time. "

So IMHO, it is possible to set boundaries in plan A. Reasonable ones. For the most part, the BS here are not being unreasonable. Even the recovering WS' are not being unreasonable. So who is? Well for the most part, the Staunch in your face: WS.

Nikko, I think your words speak for many of us when you said: "i think some of it is tolerated in the beginning because of shock and ptsd symptoms. this was my case-i am however stronger now and will not tolerate the same anymore. "

I hope that this small thread may help a few get past the shock point, through plan A and even through plan B less scarred or scared then we were.

Mahalo,
L.

Ok..How's about another question?

Can one of those boundries be no contact between the OP and our children? The OP in my case (remember, this is another woman) buys gifts for my youngest daughter, 11, for her birthday and Christmas. She also sees her at the softball games they play during the week the kids are with my wife. My older daughter, 16, sees through the bull and will have nothing to do with this OP.

I've been thinking about firmly telling my wife that there should be no more contact between my daugthters and this OP. Does this sound reasonable are more in line with Plan B or a divorce filing situation?

AH,

Gotta make this quick because I have to run out to an appointment. But I feel that the children's safety is 1st. So no contact with children and OP should be done whenever either parent feels the children's mental, physical, emotional and spiritual safety is in jeporady or being compromised.

If this OP is really a friend, then she will understand the need to remove herself until the D or even later. If the OP and WS insist, then you just have to tell them that it is noted that their desires are being put ahead of the safety of the children. Not a point of discussion, just a stated fact.

Of course you know this is just my opinion. I would check it out with Steve or Jennifer.

take care,
L.

Orchid,

Thank you for the much needed attention to this point. When I first started hearing of Plan A and B on this site, it confused me something terrible. I think my confusion came from all the confusion in the threads. So I really appreciate this.

Here&#8217;s something I created for myself in order to try and get some of the concepts straight in my mind. Of course this story is from a BS&#8217;s perspective since that&#8217;s what I was. I changed the A to a murder in order to make the concepts more clear for myself. (Can you tell this is a pre-recovery story??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

******************************

Jack and Jill were married.

One day, Jack does the unbelievable. He encounters someone who triggers an emotion in him and in a fit of anger he attacks them. Unintentionally things get out of control and the other person gets killed.

Their entire world is shattered to say the least. At first Jill feels like she&#8217;s living outside of reality. Almost like she&#8217;s a 3rd person watching a movie of her own life.

At the trial, the courts weigh the evidence and find him not guilty of manslaughter.

With time things even out and she comes to see that Jack didn&#8217;t do anything to intentionally hurt her, himself or the other person. Something triggered an action in him that day that he couldn&#8217;t even explain for himself. Jill also came to understand that if Jack didn&#8217;t have so much unrest and tension in him before the encounter, he never would have lost his self control. She saw that she did not play any part in the murder itself&#8230;.none whatsoever. But she also saw that she did play a part that added to the discontentment in Jack&#8217;s everyday life and the tensions he felt. Eventually she came to accept that Jack had made a horrible mistake and that even so she still loved him. Even though she came to &#8220;accept him&#8221; again, as he was, she still did NOT accept murder as permissible or in any way acceptable.

But Jack continued to show signs of being distant and tense. Jill sees this and starts to worry and get stressed herself that Jack might get out of control again. So she actively &#8220;makes differences&#8221; in order to try to correct the problem. She does not just ignore the issues. Nor does she just bite her tongue around him because she knows that neglecting things will not alleviate any stress or pressure for him or herself. She finds resources for both of them to help deal with their issues. She also learns how and &#8220;actively&#8221; engages in helping them both feel more fully loved and accepted in order to correct the problem. (Plan A.)

Unfortunately he's not showing interest in actively participating and over time, she sees that things are not improving. He&#8217;s still attacking other people and in fact she strongly suspects he&#8217;s murdered again but either way the "situation" is not acceptable to her. She can&#8217;t just sit idly by while he continues to lose control. She makes her concerns clear to him in a very loving way and lets him know that she accepts that this is who he is but she is unable to live like this. Every time he loses control it scares her and hurts her more and more. Living like this is crushing her personally. She makes it clear that she loves him as much as ever and would give anything for things to be different but they aren&#8217;t. So either he must more actively pursue a solution or else in order to protect herself, she must leave. She&#8217;s clear both with herself and with him that if he chooses not to improve the situation, her action here is self-preservation and NOT an attempt at manipulating him to do anything. She realizes that if she takes this step it MIGHT cause him to &#8216;bottom out&#8217; and finally have the strength to change but it is just as possible that he will not. At this point she is completely prepared for the possibility of him moving on without her. And as a result, she is also prepared to move on without him even though she will always love him. (Plan B)

**************************

This helped me understand some of Harley&#8217;s concepts a little better. Maybe it will help someone else.

E_C

<small>[ August 26, 2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Extremely_confused ]</small>

EC,

Thanks for your story. It certainly drives the correct usage of plan A vs plan B home. Much easier to see when it is about someone else.

AH, what are your thoughts on my response to your question?

L.

Thanks for the post. It helped me to understand better some of what I am feeling. I feel a bit as if I have failed in my Plan A/B due to the fact that my D-day was only 4 months ago. In all that time my WH never has indicated a desire to work on things at all. I definately enabled A. Right now I have absolutely no desire to have anything to do with WH. We have been separated 6 weeks. No kids. I still want a family someday and don't want to waste 2-3 years trying to salvage my marriage. Am I just weak? I actually feel happier than I have in years to just forget about WH and just do my thing. So many of the old timers around here have worked so long to get to recovery. Am I just a quitter??? How do some of you do it?

Well said Orchid! Seestah's got it going on!

In some ways I was lucky in plan A..boundaries were a piece of cake..we were not living together..and in effect I could control when I would see him and make sure to stay away in those "wobblier" times when I was not so self assured. Made me seem to him a whole lot more confident and happy than I was...my MB buddies sure knew differently...think plan A wore out a keyboard! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My plan B definately came at a time when, yes, I still loved him...but I simply loved myself more..and respected myself more. Love and respect..2 emotions that are in short supply when you world comes tumbling down. I was ready to accept and enjoy a life with or without him. Either way the dice played out..I would win.

I think some people know that there is simply not much left to "fix" and take their leave..I think recognizing this is valuable...there is a big difference in between giving up after doing all you can do to salvage a relationship..or giving up because it simply isn't salvagable.

T

Orchid,

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. SH has told me that the children should be the main focus of my filing for D. Its not that they are any immediate danger. It is just that they have gotten used to the way things are right now even though they know something IS wrong with the situation.

I will be filing soon. There are a few financial situations I have to take care of first. It would also probably be best if I could hold off making too many demands or boundries until that time.

Thanks for the advice...

up!

Hi ORCHID, wise sage and friend to all,
Loved your thread, you are the best. Could I have a shot of whatever you're made of. My WS is definitely a CAKEBOY (won't say MAN). Well this cake has had enough. If he wants OW. He has her, now. And she has him, poor thing. Naw, I love him, but I need to be STRONGER.
thanks
S

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: uteconf footballwidow ]</small>

Great post Orchid! I could have wrote it myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I just wanted to say to "ajr" that the length of time you spend in Plan A is a very individual thing. If you were a horrible, rotten spouse then you probably have a number of changes to make and demonstrate. That could take some time. However, you may have been a decent spouse, who unfortunately took your WS somewhat for granted or failed to really give the marriage and partner the #1 spot on your priority list. In a case like that, there may be very little change that needs to be demonstrated. It may even be, that you just need to state your willingness to become a better marriage partner and reprioritize what is actually most important. That might not take long.

You must be careful and realize when you become an enabler. With WS, no consequence to the bad behavior = no motivation to change anything. You can prolong your suffering with WS going about their merry way if you are not able to be somewhat objective.

You are not a quitter. There is no rule that says plan A must be for X length of time. Every situation is different. You know yours best. WS is not looking out for your best interest while in the midst of an active affair so you have to be the one to do that.Only you know what's right for you and how long you can wait hoping WS will wake up and get it.

There are some of us here who did short plan A's and have recovered marriages.

Thanks for all your input. An open discussion sometimes stimulates the grey cells and may bring in fresh thoughts to an 'old' problem. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mtthrbard (not sure why I never get your user name right - LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), what a compliment!!! wow, I get goose bumps when you post.

Thanks for helping.

take care,
L.