Curiouser and curiouser.<P>I think H discussed my letter with OW/"friend", because we went to a party given by one of his other former co-workers, and not only did she NOT fawn all over H, but she was exceptionally pleasant to me, referring to us as "you two" and "you guys." <P>A smokescreen? I don't know. Because another fellow was there without his wife (who stayed home with their kids). It sure looks to me like OW/"friend" has an inappropriately close relationship WITH HIM TOO! He's gone to her house to do handy stuff, they've gone out drinking just the two of them, they were pretty chummy yesterday. How this guy's wife deals with this, I have no idea. And no, I am not close enough to her to call her and ask; I've met her twice. But H wanted to get together with this guy one night this week for a drink, to return a lawn chair they left at our house, and this other guy suggested they meet at OW/"friend"'s house! Can you imagine? H said nothing; obviously the whole thing made him pretty uncomfortable.<P>While I felt better after this party (I'd really worked myself into a state about what might happen), it makes me feel a bit weird that he might have shared any of my letter with her...but why else the change in demeanor? He's also shared with her some secrets of HIS that only people he's very close to know; and that bothers me too.<P>I'm trying to take comfort in little things; like a bit more recognition from her that he's married...to ME. But that she goes gallivanting around with this other married guy too is kind of weird. Another thing...H told me she has a boyfriend who has a boat. Well, if that's the case, then why doesn't he accompany her to any of these parties. Is he married too?<P>(BTW, she's putting back on some of the weight she lost using diet drugs. =Meow!=)

This might be completely wrong because I dont know your H or the history here but it did come into my mind when you wrote this so I thought I would share it.<P>Is there a chance that perhaps OW is actually one of those ladies who is naturally affectionate? My partner is one of those people and she is just naturally a touchy/feely kind of person.<P>When the guys women are around she restrains herself because she doesnt' want to cause problems or upset/embarass anyone but when the guy is there without partner she is her normal self.<P>At the party you said she wasn't all over your husband.. of course not because you were there and it would have been disrespectful to you to do it right before your eyes... but the other guy didn't have his W there and so there was nobody to disrespect in her mind.<P>As for the two of them suggesting to meet around OW house... why on earth would two red-blooded guys NOT wish to be near a lady who is naturally affectionate? Some of us have restraints and some do not... but more often than not guys will not turn down someone who offers a hug and a touch as freely as some people do.

Oh, it's absolutely possible. Completely. It's also possible that she IS "just a friend", albeit a close one, and that H is truly nuts about me, and the whole thing is imaginary. I've thought of that all along, which I why I'm in therapy instead of dissolving the marriage.<P>Still...I do think that some degree of sensitivity would be in order on her part. If HE doesn't think about "what it looks like", then she damn well should. And yes, she is very affectionate. With her female friends from work, she's very huggy too. <P>H gets plenty of hugs at home. Yes, he's a bottomless pit for them, but with him, I'm very affectionate...always has been. We don't sit and watch TV without me rubbing his back, giving him a foot massage, etc., etc. HE'S the one who always wants to cuddle when I want sex.<P>His secretiveness about the whole thing early on is what set the stage for the lack of trust. Add her inherent flirtatiousness, and you have a potential disaster. He still lies about her, I think....to "protect" me, rather than finding a middle ground. <P>The problem is him using her as a weapon to hold over my head, so that when I falter even the slightest from my Plan A, totally affectionate, always sweet, always happy self, he can run to her for solace.<P>I appreciate your thoughts, and yes, I do think that's possibly the case. But still...when you know that it bothers your wife to the tune that she's spending $80 a week for counseling to deal with it, why continue it? Is it worth it? Why not work with your wife to try to find a middle ground, instead of lying and making it worse? It's the complete lack of respect for my feelings that's the most frustrating right now. If he's going to stray, he's going to stray. I've been in a "Plan A"-type mode since March, and he seems to be happy with it (though he gets angry when I falter at all).<P>But the anxiety is very hard to live with. I feel that if I'm not utterly perfect all the time, he'll just go running to her. Maybe that's just my baggage talking, I don't know.

Dazed,<BR>The post I just read sounded like the weekend went well. The OW didn't pursue your H...your H even looked uncomfortable. He did nothing inappropriate at the party. <P>Dazed, I understand how paranoid and gun shy we can be...but do you think you may be misinterpreting a few things then acting as it they were true?<P>I don't think OW would play along with H to make you feel secure. That's not her game. I think she was focused on another MM, which entrenches her role as predatory. It also shows you you H is not her true hearts desire, she is an equal opportunity predator, devouring men in her own quest for self importance or whatever. Maybe men play along with her for the very fact that she is "safe" meaning that she can make them feel good with her fawning, but she really isn't after or doesn't have what it takes to sustain a relationship.<P>I would seriously doubt that your H shared any part of your letter with her. However, if he was in any kind of contact and told her you had misgivings about their "friendship" and they took steps to not offend you, then is this not a good thing? I think it is unfair for you to label it a smokescreen. I think it is more likely your H was more aware and she was distracted with easier prey.<P>I also doubt very much that your H thinks he has a sword over your head. Yes, this did happen in the past, but a lot (mostly you) have changed since then. Just because he reacted like this in the past does not mean that he will do this again in a different set of circumstances, yet you are so fearful of it, I think you may subconsciously act or at least think like this is true. It is intanglible at best. Presently, I would highly doubt he is monitering your actions with the intent of running to her if they do not measure up.<P>Now Dazed, certainly your H has miles to go to be considered in the "clued" range. However, I think you may be misinterpreting his almost cloddish cluelessness for disrespect of your feelings. I think it may be more accurate to describe him as unable and possibly unwilling to learn how to understand and respond to your feelings rather than disrespectful of them. This is a different issue.<P>And Dazed, you are a wonderful, but an extremely deep and complex woman, with an enormous capacity to love, but an equally enormous neeed to be loved in ways that make you feel secure. <P>For a clueless person, this is like going into an advanced calc. class without learning basic arithmatic.<P>Anyway, give it some thought, you know I respond to your posts with the greatest fondness and best of intentions. I very much want for you to be happy in your marriage and with your life.<P><BR>

Dazed,<BR>The post I just read sounded like the weekend went well. The OW didn't pursue your H...your H even looked uncomfortable. He did nothing inappropriate at the party. <P>Dazed, I understand how paranoid and gun shy we can be...but do you think you may be misinterpreting a few things then acting as it they were true?<P>I don't think OW would play along with H to make you feel secure. That's not her game. I think she was focused on another MM, which entrenches her role as predatory. It also shows you you H is not her true hearts desire, she is an equal opportunity predator, devouring men in her own quest for self importance or whatever. Maybe men play along with her for the very fact that she is "safe" meaning that she can make them feel good with her fawning, but she really isn't after or doesn't have what it takes to sustain a relationship.<P>I would seriously doubt that your H shared any part of your letter with her. However, if he was in any kind of contact and told her you had misgivings about their "friendship" and they took steps to not offend you, then is this not a good thing? I think it is unfair for you to label it a smokescreen. I think it is more likely your H was more aware and she was distracted with easier prey.<P>I also doubt very much that your H thinks he has a sword over your head. Yes, this did happen in the past, but a lot (mostly you) have changed since then. Just because he reacted like this in the past does not mean that he will do this again in a different set of circumstances, yet you are so fearful of it, I think you may subconsciously act or at least think like this is true. It is intanglible at best. Presently, I would highly doubt he is monitering your actions with the intent of running to her if they do not measure up.<P>Now Dazed, certainly your H has miles to go to be considered in the "clued" range. However, I think you may be misinterpreting his almost cloddish cluelessness for disrespect of your feelings. I think it may be more accurate to describe him as unable and possibly unwilling to learn how to understand and respond to your feelings rather than disrespectful of them. This is a different issue.<P>And Dazed, you are a wonderful, but an extremely deep and complex woman, with an enormous capacity to love, but an equally enormous neeed to be loved in ways that make you feel secure. <P>For a clueless person, this is like going into an advanced calc. class without learning basic arithmatic.<P>Anyway, give it some thought, you know I respond to your posts with the greatest fondness and best of intentions. I very much want for you to be happy in your marriage and with your life.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Dazed, I understand how paranoid and gun shy we can be...but do you think you may<BR> be misinterpreting a few things then acting as it they were true?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it's quite possible. But I don't know what's real and what isn't anymore. H has been so deceitful through this whole thing, and he continues to lie to "protect" me, that I can't tell if my perceptions are accurate or if I'm looking through a funhouse mirror. <BR>At the very least, H has certainly created a climate of distrust over a period of a year. That's hard to erase. And where is this "boyfriend" he told me about...the one with the yacht? Why doesn't she bring him to parties? Or is he married too?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>she is an equal opportunity predator, devouring men in her own quest for self importance or whatever. Maybe men play along with her for the very fact that she is "safe" meaning that she can make them feel good with her fawning, but she really isn't after or doesn't have what it takes to sustain a relationship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps...but isn't that playing with fire...for both her and the men? And how much must a wife put up with?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would seriously doubt that your H shared any part of your letter with her. However, if he was in any kind of contact and told her you had misgivings about their<BR> "friendship" and they took steps to not offend you, then is this not a good thing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd like to think so. But how do I know it's not a smokescreen when he's got this pattern of lying about her?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Presently, I would highly doubt he is monitering your actions with the intent of running to her if they do not measure up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, not consciously. But she and I are very much alike in that we are both strong, take-charge, "fix-it"-type women. Whenever he has a problem, he comes to me to "fix it." Needs a Web page? Comes to me to "fix it." Problems with boss? Comes to me to "fix it." Loses his job? Comes to me to "fix it." This is what happens when mom dies when you're young. I know that. But the one time that I didn't "fix it" the way he thought I should, he went running. It's awfully hard to forget that. Yes, it was in the past, but we're talking four months ago, not five years ago.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think it may be more accurate to describe him as unable and possibly unwilling to learn how to understand and respond to your feelings rather than disrespectful of them. This is a different issue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's quite possible...that's where the narcissism comes in. And that being the case, how much sh*t am I supposed to eat, because he's unable and unwilling to understand?<P>Don't get me wrong...I do appreciate your post, and you are probably 100%, dead-on right. You are observing objectively, while I'm right in the middle of this, with all this history.<P>It's frustrating, when I see all these guys here, guys who have endured far worse than a wife who says to her newly-unemployed (for the 3rd time in a year) husband, "I just need you to hold yourself together"; and THEY get it...but even a letter like the one I gave him doesn't get through.<P>I'm not perfect...I never claimed to be. I'm better than I was. But in the effort to be a better wife, I've also cut myself off from all of my friends, my family (no great loss), my social life. I have plans this week to go to a charity benefit with a friend, and I'm terrified to leave him alone.<P>Yes, I should probably just let the whole thing wash off my back and react to the crisis when it comes. But I've lost all perspective now, and have no idea how to get it back, because I don't know what of my perceptions are real anymore.

Dazed, I can relate to not knowing what is real. I think I might fight that the rest of my life, not just in my marriage, but all relationships. My basic trust, except in God has been altered. Since my trust was unfounded, this could be for the best, but it doesn't feel too good.<P>However, you are accountable for the rest of your life. Having little pricks of doubt is expected, but I think you may carry that a little further.<P>Personally I think the majority of your challenges in your relationship have nothing to do with OW. If you could moniter the situation, but work on your own growth and how it relates to the marriage, you would be further ahead.<P>If you have accurately described your H, there may only so much you can do to make it the two way loving relationship you desire. If you can do all you can do, but at the same time let go of the idea you can actually control the outcome, you may have greater emotional health.<P>It is a tightrope.