Spaceman - I like the spreadsheet expense idea and NO communication about the anniversary.

BUT, as Steve once advised me, anytime you're forced into an interaction - as in exchanging kids - put on your best Plan A.

Spacecase, I hope you don't mind, I need emergency help on my post before I talk to WH in about 3 hours, now he says there is no marriage to recover. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

You know what is so odd about your W and many others. She thinks that if she tells you everything, tries to change, and then commits to the marriage that YOU win. Isn't that odd?

You aren't going to win, you are going to and do feel like crap. You are going to and have had to face your failings as an H and your role in the marriage. This isn't a contest between to people and that is the biggest thing your WW and other WS's seem to forget. You didn't enjoy this game at all, and frankly the score at the end won't compensate you for what it cost for them to play the game.

The only win in this is if she comes back to you and becomes HAPPY and that means that she has WON. Why is that so hard for them to see?? I really don't know, but I do know your WW isn't the first to think these things. It isn't important that you are right or she is right, it is important for the the both of you to be right.

I have learned a lot at this site, but I haven't figured out how this is a game and how working on the marriage makes one person a winner and the other a loser. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If you do figure this out SC, let me know.

God Bless,

JL</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL;
It IS very weird. I've pondered that very issue many times. The only possible sense I can make of it is that they feel that they were justified in having the A, and for the most part, blame the BS, so in that sense, if they admit they love you, end the R and come back, we DO win. They were proved wrong in their assumptions and hard-held beliefs.

I thought I'd take a shot at interpreting this email, I think it says a lot by what she DID NOT say, as well as for what she did say.

To begin with, she DID NOT say (or imply) that she thought my letter was a "love letter", although she did say the right "love" things at the end...

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC,
After reading and re-reading your letter, I am only going to say that I feel a terrible and profound sadness due to everything that has happened, your feelings, my pain, and our lack of mutual understanding.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting that she mentions "her" pain and "my" feelings, but not both our feelings and pain...almost an aknowledgement of my feelings, but not an acceptance of their right to be or their validity. Like "I have pain", and you have "feelings" which I'm not sure you have the right to have." The lack of mutual understanding is clear...neither of us is close to where the other wants us to be.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I will not answer your letter at this time, probably I will do so later on, since it is very, very painful to me. I understand your position and I respect it; if you wish to cut all contact off for now, I will respect that, as I have always done with your things.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder why she thinks she has to "respond". And I don't know where she got the "for now" part, I thought it was clear that this was not temporary...or did I?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But before that, there are several things I want to say.

The first is that if you want to communicate my mistakes to the world, do it but do it well and honestly. I understand you have your position and I have mine, you see things one way, and I see them another way. But at least let’s respect each other and not only for us but for our children.

And I will take this opportunity to tell you that I do not agree how you have handled things with the kids. I understand your pain and your position, but they are, after all OUR children and they will always be OUR children. On one occasion during this year I also made the mistake of exposing only my point of view on our problem to <name>, and when you pointed it out, I corrected it. I ask you to manage these things with more care, not only for us but also for the kids. And I would thank you if you did not contact <my IC> since it is uncomfortable for her and for me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is clearly another attempt at my not embarrasing her in anyone's eyes. She has always somehow felt it was my duty to protect her secret from everyone. I never DID get that...I also think there's projection here, because I know she has been less than balanced in her "explanation" of events with others. And that specific occasion when I heard it and asked her to clear it up, is just that; the only one I found out about directly!
I did contact her IC once, but she responded and asked me stuff, so I replied! I know W's snowing her, though; when asked about the other R, she said it was "nothing, just bla, bla, bla due to the circumstances" and that it was over anyway. Clearly not the right description of a R that has gone on for 2 years, and involved 8-10 trips to see him, thousands in phone calls, and the fact that he's a federal inmate, and who knows what else!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think that if there is something we need to discuss, we can do it directly, without involving D or B; I don’t agree with that. I understand you do not want contact but I also think we can be civilized, don’t you think?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is just an extension of the above. Let's keep this amongst ourselves only.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As it relates to expenses, I’d appreciate your being more specific. By your letter I understand you will pay the mortgage and groceries, “and other basic expenses”. What do you mean exactly?

I think it is fair that we share the expenses, even though at this time I am not in a good situation to do that. But I think it is only fair for you to do that. I understand I’ll have to pay for my car and utilities, but what happens with the rest?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem here; she needs th details.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SC, with this I do not want to fight with you or get into arguments, I will do my best to cover the expenses that are necessary, but please give me some time as you well know the situation I am in right now.

I understand we are both responsible for this, but unfortunately my situation is difficult right now; I know yours is as well since you are unemployed, but you fortunately have other resources which I do not have. I don’t mean to say that I won’t cover anything, and I think that if we cannot continue to cover our current expenses, maybe we should sell the house. My interest is in maintaining the kids in the best conditions that we are able, even under these difficult circumstances, and even more now that we are separated. I ask you, therefore, to evaluate the situation and let me know your decision.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't understand why she'd ask for "time" here as well. As if ANY of what has happened has been "conveniently timed" for me! weird that she'd think this is negotiable! And she evidently did not listen when we talked about selling the house before...it makes no financial sense to do that, and it would only mean perhaps a few hundred dollars monthly savings (after losing a few thousand by selling it!) and clearly the assumption is that I'd still give her that money difference so she doesn't have to suffer so much.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Lastly, I want to tell you that when I asked you for more time, I only did so in order to cleanse myself and heal myself, as I told Steve, and I understand why, since I always felt that your things came first, your pain, your needs, etc. so in order to look at myself, cleanse myself, and heal myself I need to be alone. I too have a lot of pain inside not only due to past things, but due to everything, and unfortunately I am not in conditions to say right now, OK, let’s forget the past and start working on us. It hurts too much, you know?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I know. But what have we been doing for a whole year? No acknowledgement at all of what I went through this past year, or that it has any bearing or importance. Shows a lack of understanding about what this has done to me.
And it shows her feeling that she has always put my interests ahead of hers...
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Like I told you, the R with OM is in the past, and I will demonstrate it, but I need time; not in order to demonstrate it, but to heal and I cannot do it under pressure by you. I understand your position, please understand mine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is more of the same I've always gotten. More loyalty to OM than me, no problem offending me but impossible to offend him, and making sure whatever she has to do to truly end it is taken care of fully. Probably also that it has NOT really ended. I KNOW she made many calls to his attorney after her aborted visit to the prison, so they are probably trying to figure out a way around the prohibition. And clearly they must still be in touch via phone and letter. I have no way of knowing this for sure, but until I know otherwise, I assume they are in contact.

Also, why does she need to "heal" before she considers doing what would clearly help ME "heal". Clearly she does not understand my "position", as she states. I see this as just buying more time...for what reason, I'm not certain.

The pressure part I'm not sure how to interpret, whether Plan B is considered the pressure, or what came before was the pressure, or both!

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
SC, I have always loved you very deeply, you have been the center of my life, and I never, ever thought we might not be together. Look at what we’ve come to. I fell in love with you since the first day I saw you, and I have always loved you. And I ask you to forgive me for all the suffering; I never meant to hurt you, on the contrary, it was circumstance which led me to make this mistake or these mistakes.

I hope with all of my heart that I can heal my wounds and my pain, and hope that our souls and our hearts can meet again on the same path.

I truly love you!

I Will not communicate with you again, respecting your wishes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This could be true, probably is, but it could also be the "hook" she sends my way to make sure I'm still in the game, so to speak. To make sure I don't get D ideas before she's "ready"....I'm very cynical with this, but unfortunately, she's been doing the same for a whole year! Saying the right things in terms of me, love, our M, but behind my back doing exactly the opposite.

That's my take...

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hey SC,

I tried the email thing again.

E_C

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

"CSue says: Space, I made a few notes regarding your W's e-mail."

SC,
After reading and re-reading your letter, I am only going to say that I feel a terrible and profound sadness due to everything that has happened, your feelings, my pain, and our lack of mutual understanding.

Interesting that she mentions "her" pain and "my" feelings, but not both our feelings' and pain...almost an aknowledgement of my feelings, but not an acceptance of their right to be or their validity. Like "I have pain", you have "feelings" which I'm not sure you have the right to have." The lack of mutual understanding is clear...neither of us is close to where the other wants us to be.

"CSue asks: I still don&#8217;t see that she is taking responsibility for what she has done at all."

I will not answer your letter at this time, probably I will do so later on, since it is very, very painful to me. I understand your position and I respect it; if you wish to cut all contact off for now, I will respect that, as I have always done with your things.

I wonder why she thinks she has to "repond". And I don't know where she got the "for now" part, I thought I was clear that this was not temporary...or did I?

"CSue says: I think she may feel this is temporary because she is going to meet the conditions for you to come home and work on your marriage. Eventually, but she&#8217;s not ready now for some unknown reason. Another mystery."

But before that, there are several things I want to say.

The first is that if you want to communicate my mistakes to the world, do it but do it well and honestly. I understand you have your position and I have mine, you see things one way, and I see them another way. But at least let&#8217;s respect each other and not only for us but for our children.

And I will take this opportunity to tell you that I do not agree how you have handled things with the kids. I understand your pain and your position, but they are, after all OUR children and they will always be OUR children. On one occasion during this year I also made the mistake of exposing only my point of view on our problem to <name>, and when you pointed it out, I corrected it. I ask you to manage these things with more care, not only for us but also for the kids. And I would thank you if you did not contact <my IC> since it is uncomfortable for her and for me.

This is clearly another attempt at my not embarrassing her in anyone's eyes. She has always somehow felt it was my duty to protect her secret from everyone. I never did get that...I also think there's projection here, because I know she has been less than balanced in her "explanation" of events with others. And that specific occasion when I heard it and asked her to clear it up, is just that; the only one I found out about directly!
I did contact her IC once, but she responded and asked me stuff, so I replied! I know W's snowing her, though; when asked about the other R, she said it was "nothing, just bla, bla, bla due to the circumstances" and that it was over anyway. Clearly not the right description of a R that has gone on for 2 years and involved 8-10 trips to see him, thousands in phone calls, the fact that he's a federal inmate and who knows what else!

"CSue says: Back to what it says in SAA about affairs lasting less than six months after they are exposed to the light of day. When the A is out in the open the problems of real life and the WS inability to solve them takes them out of the fantasy realm and into the real world."

Regarding her friend the IC; if she contacts you again maybe you can respond to her that W has requested that you not talk with her any further. And you are respecting that request.

I think that if there is something we need to discuss, we can do it directly, without involving D or B; I don&#8217;t agree with that. I understand you do not want contact but I also think we can be civilized, don&#8217;t you think?

I think this is just an extension of the above. Let's keep this amongst ourselves only.

"CSue says: Also I think it is a little humbling for her to think that she has to communicate to you through D or B. It has to be a major inconvenience which we all know is a great natural consequence."

As it relates to expenses, I&#8217;d appreciate your being more specific. By your letter I understand you will pay the mortgage and groceries, &#8220;and other basic expenses&#8221;. What do you mean exactly?

I think it is fair that we share the expenses, even though at this time I am not in a good situation to do that. But I think it is only fair for you to do that. I understand I&#8217;ll have to pay for my car and utilities, but what happens with the rest?

No problem here; she needs the details.

SC, with this I do not want to fight with you or get into arguments, I will do my best to cover the expenses that are necessary, but please give me some time as you well know the situation I am in right now.

I understand we are both responsible for this, but unfortunately my situation is difficult right now; I know yours is as well since you are unemployed, but you fortunately have other resources which I do not have. I don&#8217;t mean to say that I won&#8217;t cover anything, and I think that if we cannot continue to cover our current expenses, maybe we should sell the house. My interest is in maintaining the kids in the best conditions that we are able, even under these difficult circumstances, and even more now that we are separated. I ask you, therefore, to evaluate the situation and let me know your decision.

I don't understand why she'd ask for "time" here as well. As if ANY of what has happened has been "conveniently timed" for me! weird that she'd think this is negotiable! And she evidently did not listen when we talked about selling the house before...it makes no financial sense to do that, and it would only mean a perhaps few hundred dollars monthly savings (after losing a few thousand by selling it!) and clearly the assumption is that I'd still give her that money difference so she doesn't have to suffer so much.

"CSue says: I think there is a little &#8220;scare tactic&#8221; going on regarding sale of the house. I think she was hoping for a reaction from you."

Lastly, I want to tell you that when I asked you for more time, I only did so in order to cleanse myself and heal myself, as I told Steve, and I understand why, since I always felt that your things came first, your pain, your needs, etc. so in order to look at myself, cleanse myself, and heal myself I need to be alone. I too have a lot of pain inside not only due to past things, but due to everything, and unfortunately I am not in conditions to say right now, OK, let&#8217;s forget the past and start working on us. It hurts too much, you know?

Yes, I know. But what have we been doing for a whole year? No acknowledgement at all of what I went through this past year, or that it has any bearing or importance. Shows a lack of understanding about what this has done to me.

"CSue says: Her mysteriousness here is amazing."

Like I told you, the R with OM is in the past, and I will demonstrate it, but I need time; not in order to demonstrate it, but to heal and I cannot do it under pressure by you. I understand your position, please understand mine.

This is more of the same I've always gotten. More loyalty to OM than me, no problem offending me but impossible to offend him, and making sure whatever she has to do to truly end it is taken care of fully. Probably also that it has NOT really ended. I KNOW she made many calls to his attorney after her aborted visit to the prison, so they are probably trying to figure out a way around the prohibition. And clearly they must still be in touch via phone and letter. I have no way of knowing this for sure.

Also, why does she need to "heal" before she considers doing what would clearly help ME "heal". Clearly she does not understand my "position", as she states. I see this as just buying more time...for what reason, I'm not certain.

The pressure part I'm not sure how to interpret, whether Plan B is considered the pressure, or what came before was the pressure, or both!

"CSue: How can you possibly understand her position? Her position has always been part of the secret."

SC, I have always loved you very deeply, you have been the center of my life, and I never, ever thought we might not be together. Look at what we&#8217;ve come to. I fell in love with you since the first day I saw you, and I have always loved you. And I ask you to forgive me for all the suffering; I never meant to hurt you, on the contrary, it was circumstance which led me to make this mistake or these mistakes.

I hope with all of my heart that I can heal my wounds and my pain, and hope that our souls and our hearts can meet again on the same path.

I truly love you!

I Will not communicate with you again, respecting your wishes.

This could be true, probably is, but it could also be the "hook" she sends my way to make sure I'm still in the game, so to speak. To make sure I don't get D ideas before she's "ready"....I'm very cynical with this, but unfortunately, she's been doing the same for a whole year! Saying the right things in terms of me, love, our M, but behind my back doing exactly the opposite.

That's my take...

"CSue says: Space I think you are rooted in reality; and she&#8217;s not anywhere close. I hope you don&#8217;t mind me sounding critical of her. I actually feel very badly for her that she has gotten herself into this mess. How can she possibly explain it so that it makes any sense to anyone?"

CSue

Yes I did. That's the address I sent to. You didn't get anything this aft?

SC,

Just want to say, I think the best thing to do now is to give your W time & space. My W told me almost the same thing as what your W wrote. I felt a tremendous need to explain my POV, but I wanted to try another approach - I wanted to 'respect' her feelings and 'accept' them for what they are, regardless if I felt it was wrong or fog talk, etc, etc. I really just learned to listen and not judge her. After I started doing this, I felt a big improvement in our communications.

I know you are in plan-b now and so am I. I only see my WW during the exch. of the kids. I wish you the best!! stay strong and may god bless you and your family.

Take care.

SC,

Ya now, after reading your thoughts on her response several things are very clear:

1. She is lying to you and herself; It is clear in her mind you do NOT come first, even if she says that you do. Her whole letter is how she has to... before you.

2. She has a hard time reading and comprehending, but that is probably because she doesn't think you are hurt or that you will divorce her.

3. I mentioned it before and I wil say it again, she doesn't really think that a D will happen: it is a game to her.

I would recommend that you do communicate with her using B & D. That you resolutely avoid contact with her and that you do communicate with your children. It seems clear to me that she is still in contact with OM and hasn't figured out how to clean that up.

It also seems as if she has been living in a fantasy land for a long time. I wonder if this is just due to the fog or it it was true before this affair began.

In any event, I can see why SH said drop the hammer now. Time will tell, but I suspect it is going to take a long time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know you have set your date, and I would encourage you to keep that date firm unless something really new happens.

God Bless,

JL

PS: SC if I were a betting man, I would bet that it will take you filing for divorce before you really hear a thing of use from her. I truely hope that I am wrong about that.

Space, I know you want to see good things when they are there...but her email sounded all too familiar to me. If I had time to dig I might still be able to find one of the letters I wrote my hubby back in the fogland days...I think you would get chills at the similarities. Her letter may have been an attempt at being honest...but I think she's far from knowing what the truth really is at this point. It's still pretty early for her to be "getting" anything. I see no cracks in her fog. JMO.

I also want to remind you of how the acknowlegment of the anniversary has gone for JR. He has done an altered Plan B. Ask him what he thinks about it.

My opinion...again...is that you JUST told her no more communication...you JUST told her how much you love her and want a future but aren't willing to accept the current situation. So back that up in your actions. Don't play the old game...don't acknowlege it and DEFINATLY don't point out the frucked up situation!!! Fog or no fog I'd take that as an insult. She's turned the tables on you in a sense trying to make it like this was her idea as much as yours because she needs "time"...so let it be. She's trying to rattle your cage. I played the game...I recognize the moves.

Lower the *cone of silence* ..... this is plan B babe .... StealthSpaceCadet .... silent running man ....

She wants "time" .... please give her time .... quiet_dark_time .... this is her time of reckoning.

"I will refrain from trying to predict the future"

You've "gone dark" from her life.... now SHE will have "the time" to find her way out of the darkness. She'll be OK. This is what she needs. You are doing this with love ... don't forget that. She may not know it ... but you do, and we do, and SH does.

Time time and more time and more time and more time .... her growing maturity demands she take the time ... and you obliged .

We're here when you need us.

fondly,

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue asks: I still don’t see that she is taking responsibility for what she has done at all." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Righty-O...which begs the question; what purpose did it serve for Steve to have her say she accepted responsibility without offering any type of follow-up proof, or actions that demonstrate it...no crack at Steve, just a confirmation of the universal "Fog & Fence" principle: "Seeing is believing".
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue says: I think she may feel this is temporary because she is going to meet the conditions for you to come home and work on your marriage. Eventually, but she’s not ready now for some unknown reason. Another mystery." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a comforting thought....sure, it could be that! Of course we don't really know what the delay is, but if that is the intent, then we can live with the delay, can't we? (I guess it depends on the length of the delay) See, there I go again with that length-obsession thing, LOL!!!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue says: Back to what it says in SAA about affairs lasting less than six months after they are exposed to the light of day. When the A is out in the open the problems of real life and the WS inability to solve them takes them out of the fantasy realm and into the real world."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm...in other words, "if I delay the affair's exposure, I can keep it going longer"? Not sure about that, I think it has to do with personal embarassment; she does have a reputation and an image to uphold. And she would have no way of knowing that an exposed A tends to die. Besides, it's BEEN exposed for over a year! At least to those closest to her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Regarding her friend the IC; if she contacts you again maybe you can respond to her that W has requested that you not talk with her any further. And you are respecting that request.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, except I have a vested interest in "illuminating" the IC to certain "conveniently forgotten" details, right? Maybe not. In any case, it has not come up again.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue says: Also I think it is a little humbling for her to think that she has to communicate to you through D or B. It has to be a major inconvenience which we all know is a great natural consequence." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, but on principle, I want to at least TRY to keep that up. Tonight I'll send D the Financial Spreadsheet, and have him forward it to her. I might even wait until tomorrow.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue says: I think there is a little “scare tactic” going on regarding sale of the house. I think she was hoping for a reaction from you."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what you mean by "scare tactic"... that she wants to scare me by saying she wants to sell the house? She can't sell it without my consent. It's a non-issue for me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue says: Her mysteriousness here is amazing." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, yes and no. First off, she feels that the time has come in her life for her to get what SHE wants. (Supported by a well-meaning therapist, and 2 very independent, divorced sisters!) And she does not believe I am it. She feels she's given her life to me and the kids, sacrificing HER real desires, and that it's time to satisfy those. She does NOT see how we could BOTH satisfy each other's desires as a couple. Secondly, she does not trust that we CAN fix this so she's scared of committing to recovery only to discover it may not work. Thirdly, she doesn't feel we have ever had the "passion" that she seeks. And that's a tough one because since she will never be able to "test" the OM's passion in the real world, she believes the "fantasy" of that passion is real. And with no way to disprove it...it's likely going to remain "real". One bad thing about her not being able to go to the OM and give that a try! And lastly, she DOES NOT trust me to have the capacity to satisfy, understand, accomodate her needs. She feels I've suddenly jumped up, seen my errors, and I'm putting on a show just to get her back, only to return to previous behavior. And this bothers her. Remember the statement "Why now? why did you have to wait until this happened to realize you were losing me and doing somehting aboput it? I feel like I was never worth anything to you before."
Very tough issues.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> "CSue: How can you possibly understand her position? Her position has always been part of the secret." </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. Very true. I have no way of judging why she'd say this. Why she has to heal before she can demonstrate no contact, and what constitues "pressure" from me to do it. Perhaps the same old thing about not "losing" to me. "Because you ask for it, I won't do it."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>"CSue says: Space I think you are rooted in reality; and she’s not anywhere close. I hope you don’t mind me sounding critical of her. I actually feel very badly for her that she has gotten herself into this mess. How can she possibly explain it so that it makes any sense to anyone?"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think she can. So what she does is tell people (her IC included) all about the pain, my mistreatment, my neglect, the pressures, the sacrifices, being taken for granted, etc. etc. etc. but she DOES NOT talk about the OM or what she did about it: have an A. In other words, "I've reached a point in my life where all these things have hit me, and I think it's time for a life that fulfills me" Nobody can argue with that. See, if she leaves the A and the OM out of it, it's perfectly reasonable, and she can get a lot of support. That's probably why she does not want me to "advertise" the fact that she's had an A when I talk to others about it.
But honestly, it's hard to do. I mean friends call, I have to tell them I'm separated, after all they have called me at the house 2-3 times and I'm never there, I can't put her on the phone if they want to say hi to her, and when I tell them I'm separated, they want to know the scoop! Honestly there are many friends with whom I have just skirted the question, but words gets around, you know how that is!
Thanks for the feedback CSue; a very though-provoking exercise!

<small>[ August 28, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>SC,

Ya now, after reading your thoughts on her response several things are very clear:

1. She is lying to you and herself; It is clear in her mind you do NOT come first, even if she says that you do. Her whole letter is how she has to... before you.

2. She has a hard time reading and comprehending, but that is probably because she doesn't think you are hurt or that you will divorce her.

3. I mentioned it before and I wil say it again, she doesn't really think that a D will happen: it is a game to her.

I would recommend that you do communicate with her using B & D. That you resolutely avoid contact with her and that you do communicate with your children. It seems clear to me that she is still in contact with OM and hasn't figured out how to clean that up.

It also seems as if she has been living in a fantasy land for a long time. I wonder if this is just due to the fog or it it was true before this affair began.

In any event, I can see why SH said drop the hammer now. Time will tell, but I suspect it is going to take a long time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know you have set your date, and I would encourage you to keep that date firm unless something really new happens.

God Bless,

JL

PS: SC if I were a betting man, I would bet that it will take you filing for divorce before you really hear a thing of use from her. I truely hope that I am wrong about that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A pretty grim assessment, JL, but I might have to agree with you. I suspect she's lived these fantasies for many years, and there probably were other As too. It may be too late. Time will tell.

SC,

Ok. I just sent another one to you right now.

Man, I've never had so much trouble emailing something to anyone in my life!

You think the Internet God's are trying to tell me something?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Space, I know you want to see good things when they are there...but her email sounded all too familiar to me. If I had time to dig I might still be able to find one of the letters I wrote my hubby back in the fogland days...I think you would get chills at the similarities. Her letter may have been an attempt at being honest...but I think she's far from knowing what the truth really is at this point. It's still pretty early for her to be "getting" anything. I see no cracks in her fog. JMO.

I also want to remind you of how the acknowlegment of the anniversary has gone for JR. He has done an altered Plan B. Ask him what he thinks about it.

My opinion...again...is that you JUST told her no more communication...you JUST told her how much you love her and want a future but aren't willing to accept the current situation. So back that up in your actions. Don't play the old game...don't acknowlege it and DEFINATLY don't point out the frucked up situation!!! Fog or no fog I'd take that as an insult. She's turned the tables on you in a sense trying to make it like this was her idea as much as yours because she needs "time"...so let it be. She's trying to rattle your cage. I played the game...I recognize the moves.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm under no illusions, H4F, believe me. If I were to give us odds, they'd be 4:1 against, maybe 20% chance of success. (However much I may cry later about even thinking this!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But it is nice to hear her say she loves me and all that; I mean, she could have left all that out...trouble is, I can't tell if it's real or more smoke and mirrors. And I SO want to believe MY "fantasy"! I hope by the time she makes a move I'll be strong enough not to bite so easily. To let her know it is now I who will choose to take her back, or not!

I'm not going to acknowledge the Anniv. and I'm going to avoid communication. She DOES rattle my cage...quite a bit. She does make it sound like it was her idea, doesn't she?!?! Weird!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Lower the *cone of silence* ..... this is plan B babe .... StealthSpaceCadet .... silent running man ....

She wants "time" .... please give her time .... quiet_dark_time .... this is her time of reckoning.

"I will refrain from trying to predict the future"

You've "gone dark" from her life.... now SHE will have "the time" to find her way out of the darkness. She'll be OK. This is what she needs. You are doing this with love ... don't forget that. She may not know it ... but you do, and we do, and SH does.

Time time and more time and more time and more time .... her growing maturity demands she take the time ... and you obliged .

We're here when you need us.

fondly,

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it, Pep! Boy do I know it! Don't like it a single bit, but I know it.

I like the new and improved <strong>"StealthSpaceCadet"</strong>

SC

H4F: I also want to remind you of how the acknowlegment of the anniversary has gone for JR. He has done an altered Plan B. Ask him what he thinks about it.

Well, since you asked... I think breaking NC wasn't a great thing - for me, anyhow. BUT... in a way, I feel like I didn't finish things to the point where I can honestly walk away completely and forever, either. That was something I didn't really realize until after-the-fact. With is limited contact recently, I AM honestly trying to put myself in a position of finality... and I want her to be the one to put me there. I want her to say the words that trigger my final choices - not for me to have imposed them on her. That's something I just realized recently.

What I mean is that I've seen so much information here about R dynamics, that I'm now ready to give it one last application - let her see that in its fullness - give her a chance to say "no, I want this M" - and have her KNOW that I gave her every opportunity, every possible ounce of love and compassion. And if one of her complaints was that I wasn't open with my feelings - she'll see them - in their fullness. My confidence in myself and being able to construct a new, happy life is starting to soar. And heck - I'm a catch... and I know that OM will never measure up in the long run.

So we've even talked about my boundaries and what I need, etc. - and there will probably be 1-2 more "chats" where I show the real, true, shining "new me" - no LB'ing, very open, very honest - very much the "perfect" H. And if at the end of those chats, she can't commit to even try... I will tell her that I'm done trying... and that I'm moving back home. Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about this.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread, SC, with my own update... bottom line is that NC is best, but there may come a time when you're truly "done" that it's only fair to let her know that. Honesty and openness may be one EN that transcends Plan B.