Okay, this is something of an update, something of a philosophical discussion with myself, LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Reading hcii's story, I can so relate... Plan B is all well and good for ME - except that it does something almost sinister IMHO: it doesn't allow for WW to get an honest pulse of where "we are" - when we've reached some key points.

In fact, I think I posed this thought on someone else's thread recently: maybe one EN that transcends Plan B is that of honesty and openness.

I think in a "perfect world", we would have communicated all that we need to communicate with our WS's before we enter Plan B. They'd have a perfect picture of everything they need to do, a picture of what we bring to their lives, a picture of reality, etc. And for those who actually counsel with a Harley, maybe that's true. But from my observation, I don't think that happens usually... They can be talked to till we're blue in the face - they simply don't truly hear and understand until certain things happen in their own lives (e.g. natural death of A, gaining new healthy perspectives, hitting rock bottom, etc.).

So here we BS sit in Plan B... we've told them in our Plan B letter that we DO want to recover the M. The point is that we simply get out of the way and wait... and wait... and wait. It's TIME that destroys the addiction, but so often, even that doesn't appear to be enough. Why? Because the WS simply knows they can "have it all." And the OP rarely fights it for some reason - a past poll seems to prove that. Not a single OP ended it on their own. (Boy, doesn't that speak to their level of self-respect??!)

Anyhow, I digress. I think that Plan B is good to protect us as the BS and allow the WS to get a taste of reality. And for some WS, it's bitter enough for them to hit rock bottom and pull their heads out. For many, it isn't. Yet we see them still sitting there, paralyzed, not rushing forward with Dv. So they're far from convinced. Maybe they still have the fears that my last poll highlighted: fear that they'll never love BS like they did OP, fear that they'll always love OP, fear that things will return to the way they were, etc. Is this because we as BS didn't do a good enough job convincing them the fears are unfounded? I doubt it. We can only do and say so much... most of what we say doesn't register until later.

What can we do? We can start moving on. I know that goes against much of what would be counseled by the Harleys. But I think it's a natural, incremental process that can't be avoided - or at least in a healthy way. After a certain point, it's healthier to move forward than to stay still. And by move forward I don't mean just starting a new hobby, spending more time with the kids, going out with friends... I mean truly accepting that the M is over - one way or another. That's where I think we hit "Radical Acceptance."

And if we've hit that point... is it fair to withhold that information from our WS's, even if we're in Plan B? That's where I think Radical Honesty - no matter what "mode" we're in - comes into play. I think we do our M, our WS and ourselves a great disservice by closing ourselves completely. In fact, it's that "closing off" that most WS's have complained about as a reason for their A(s). If we've truly changed ourselves through our Plan A/B efforts, we should be able to express ourselves clearly, confidently and strongly. Tough love? Sure, whatever you want to call it.

I think many BS hang on to little gestures, little words - seeing them as signs the fog is clearing, etc. This isn't demonstrating Radical Acceptance. We see it, we see it fall flat, and we go on - "oh well, I accept." Radical Acceptance is when we say, "Enough! This will not continue." Radical Acceptance is when we've gained enough strength to do things differently - take a much larger leap of faith.

Again, in a perfect world, maybe that's when Plan B should begin for most. We should just say, "Okay, I'm going to start Plan B because I can move on." But we never include that in the letter. We want them to infer that. And many do "get it" - with enough time. Others are very blind, very hurtful, or very confused about reality and unwilling to learn. How can we tell which is which? We can't. And although we should just "accept" that... and wait patiently... we are only human... our Takers will eventually "win"... and we will see a much larger, brighter, happier world out there for us. That's very hard to reach for many BS's - in our own kind of fog - is it "love" or co-dependency?

Is it fear that prevents us from telling them that we're "done"? I think the longer we go on, lying by omission - the more damage it will do... do to the chances of recovery, even to our ability to say "I did everything I could".

All of this leads into where I'm at... Willing to talk to my WW... Openly and honestly. We had one "chat" recently. It started the ball rolling a bit. My goal is to continue this process, putting the responsibility on her shoulders to move us forward here. If she succeeds - wonderful! If she doesn't, she'll know where I'm at. Not as a threat or ultimatum - that's where it can be a bit tricky. But it can be done, I think, by keeping things in the context of me - my feelings. It's impossible to argue with someone else's feelings - they are what they are.

I recently conversed by e-mail with our IC/MC... she had this to say:

"Let WW approach you, when she does be supportive, not over eager and practice self disclosure, i.e. let her know that you are reaching the end of your patience yet do it in a way that simply describes your feelings without putting any pressure on her. If you can forgive her, let her know that."

Sounds like good advice to me. She's been along for nearly this entire journey.

So the next while will prove interesting. In a way, I'm giving her one last chance in a kind and compassionate way... but she'll come to know the alternative outcome. She'll be in charge of determining it, too - I'm not going to let her evade - I've got ideas / skills to make sure she doesn't wiggle away. And I can lob out a couple of new "thought grenades" - maybe to give her some food for thought in her "new life." Too much pressure? Well, the absence of pressure has done nothing but let her escape responsibility. In the recent past when she's seen the possibility of losing me, she's come running back towards me. I'm tiring of the "game". I've reached Radical Acceptance, I think.

JR,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What can we do? We can start moving on. I know that goes against much of what would be counseled by the Harleys. But I think it's a natural, incremental process that can't be avoided - or at least in a healthy way. After a certain point, it's healthier to move forward than to stay still. And by move forward I don't mean just starting a new hobby, spending more time with the kids, going out with friends... I mean truly accepting that the M is over - one way or another. That's where I think we hit "Radical Acceptance." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think in a way you have it. The MB approach, as I understand it, is that one of the outcomes of Plan B is that the BS decides to 'move on". At that point there is no purpose to plan B and you can and should tell the WS of YOUR decision. You have decided to move on and there is no reason to protect your love for the recovery. When the BS reaches a major decision the WS is supposed to know that. The purpose of Plan B is preservation of love for a recovery that the BS wants. When the BS no longer wants the recovery or has decided that it isn't worth waiting for, then one doesn't need plan B. Probably the correct approach is more like a plan A.

A respectful stating of your position and what you are planning to do. No really need to LB, and no real need to protect, but also no need to meet EN's.

What seems to be forgotten on this site is that Dr. Harley is NOT opposed to divorce. His original concept was that many divorces could be prevented IF his approach is applied. I don't recall ever reading that he felt that divorce shouldn't occur. In fact he states, categorically, that if his W cheated he would divorce her. Recall that their children are grown and many factors are different.

So it seems to me that you do really and finally understand this approach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yup, you plan b until either you or your WW makes a decision. Once a decision is made, the natural consequences of that decision will dictate what is next.

Hope this helps, although you really aren't asking for any nor does it seem that you need any. I think you have got it figured out and squared away in your mind.

God Bless,

JL

Good, valid points JL

I think my point goes a little further... I agree with what you said... but...

I think we run a risk here. We say almost universally in our Plan B letter "I'll be waiting" - at least implicitly. Yet when we "move on", we're announcing it - imposing it. Now, no WS in their right mind can "blame us" for this - if asked, they'd have to admit they couldn't expect the BS to "wait forever." However, given their "state" - many don't appreciate the true nature of the situation, I think. Many take the words of the letter at face value and DON'T read between the lines...

Should we as BS feel responsible for that? Certainly we're in no position to "educate". But we can simply be honest. Honesty with our own feelings is about us being "who we really are" now. And to announce it after all hope is extinguished seems to be hiding the truth until it's "too late."

Does this sound like manipulation? Is truth manipulation? Are my own feelings manipulation? Because simply stated as fact, I'm not going in with an expectation... I'm saying "This is what I'm ready for" - and I would be. Because I don't believe she thinks I'm at the point I am. I'd hate to think a classic "misunderstanding" of fact could mean the end of my marriage. That's one I may have second thoughts / regrets / questions about down the road. In having me know I did all I could, part of that is being open and honest.

I see many others get there, after exhausting all other plans.

J.R.

Wow, you seem to be having the same train of thought as I am, and I read your profile that the OM is a co-worker, it is amazing how much we are alike.

I have been trying to take the Harley principles and apply them to my own situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They can be talked to till we're blue in the face - they simply don't truly hear and understand until certain things happen in their own lives (e.g. natural death of A, gaining new healthy perspectives, hitting rock bottom, etc.). </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man don't I know that statement. You mentioned something about an ultimatum can be tricky. Why can't I do this? Why can't I say "I am tired of waiting around. You know my committment to this marriage, as I have told you a hundred times. If you do not move back home and make a committment in 2 weeks or 1 month from now (whatever time frame you feel appropriate), I am going to a lawyer to discuss my options and start the divorce proceedings"

Granted, I don't think that you can do this until you reach the point where you are willing to lose WW and move on with your life if this does not cause her to wake up. For me, I am not at this point quite yet, but everyday that goes by, I get a little closer to that point.

JR,

I agree with you, but I think that there are implicit assumptions that go with Plan B letters.

1. I can change my mind.

2. I won't wait forever.

Now, it seems to me that you are worried that the WS may not pick up on these implicit assumptions. Perhaps you are right, they don't seem to pick up on much that is true, at least while in the A. So I suppose you can put something to that effect in the letter.

In your situation the letter has been in affect for awhile. You wonder if you should have contacted her, when your feelings began to change. I don't know the answer.

I do know that what is recommended is that one have a target date for the Plan B. At which point reevaluation and perhaps communication takes place. Most of the time the target date is when the BS may well file for divorce.

I don't how one would say to WS: "I am sort of kind of changing my mind and I think I may just bail on this." If one hasn't decided this statement won't work and sounds like manipulation. Once one has decided then plan b is over or at least the strick form of it. The BS may still want to limit communications.

I always thought the point of these plans was to give the chance for the A to die. But, the BS was always able to end things or even discuss something important like taxes, selling something with the wS while in plan B. The point is that this line is sort of fuzzy when applied as it is done on this board without a professional like one of the Harley's guiding you.

You see if they say one can have limited communications, then you can see that most people would never go to a full Plan B, it is hard to do. And the WS would rapidly blur the line further. So when talking about "blanket" guidance as the books and articles must, the "no contact" between the WS and BS is clearly stated because that is the most effective.

I think we agree but again since it is your marriage or anyones marriage,then you really call the tune.

Nevertheless, I think you have really done an outstanding job in trying to save your marriage. I also think as I have said to you before that you need to start to move along with your plans. She knows what they are and since these plans entail moving home and leaving her, then I agree it is time for Plan B to be over. Let her know what is going on, and start to settle things so that you can move on with your life.

God Bless,

JL

Well said, J.R. I totally agree.

Exactly what you have said is my situation entirely. If you go back and re-read Spacecase's Plan B letter, he added the fact that he may be moving on. I thought that addition was superb, IMHO.

I started to post the other night that I felt that instead of Plan A - B - D, that there was another potential Plan in between B and D. Namely, the revealing of the finding in one's mind the desire to move on. Maybe not so much the desire to move on as much as the high possibility.

I think the most of us go into Plan B with more love left than we think. But...that is not so bad. Sometimes, I think, being in the middle of the misery and hurt will cause us to mask some of the feelings that remain, and hence we think that we are low in LB$. When in all actuality, we aren't. Escaping from the situation, I think, will very often cause the LB$ to rise slightly.

So...we reach the point of indifference, then. We can take it or leave it. I think that is a crucial phase that we do not reiterate when we go to plan B.

We begin with Plan A, and when the LB$ is low, we go to Plan B. We go leaving the impression that we are doing this to preserve the love we have left. We do not, at least from what I have read and seen (other than SC's), make it plain that there could be the outcome of us moving on. Think about it....the WS is fogged. We shouldn't expect them to think clearly. Like you, J.R., I think my WW sensed that sure, I was going dark, but I NEVER said that I may be ending it. Therefore, I don't think that they really entertain that thought.

So now, we are in Plan B, and we let ourselves slide through the indifference phase, without letting it be known clearly that is where we are. This point MAY BE CRUCIAL, in that maybe, just maybe, the WS will be woken up by this fact. But...instead...the majority of Plan B'ers will let it go until they are ready for Dv.

Maybe a chance lost? Could the WS have changed if they REALLY "got it" when they knew the BS had reached the indifferent stage?

I know that even though I was indifferent, I still could have tried to repair my M. Its not that I don't want to, but rather I really can actually handle it either way.

So...I concur, J.R. I think that we all need to be honest with ourselves, and our WS's, and be plain about the fact that there is a "hidden" opportunity.

An opportunity that may just salvage MORE M's.

HCII

"Not as a threat or ultimatum"

THIS is exactly correct. It is a simply stated FACT ... "I have decided to do this ...." No if's and's or but's.

I said to my WH, "Goodbye. We are done with this." I was not asking him to change anything. It was a fact. I was done. No waiting. No fighting ... it was spoken calmly and with precision. HIS response was , "I'll do whatever it takes RIGHT NOW to keep you." ... followed by immediate actions, of course.

You have to know what you want. And to know what reality is. Accept the reality as-is. Compare the two (your wants and accepted reality as-is)... and then make a decision. With no whining. No threats. No "If you do this I'll do that."

Toughness.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

JL,

A very wise person you are, and I HIGHLY value your opinions, so do not take this wrong in any way. But...this is where I know my problem is, and where I think J.R. is coming from:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I agree with you, but I think that there are implicit assumptions that go with Plan B letters. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine and my WW's assumptions got us into the mess we're in. Through laziness, or being lax in our M, I ASSSUMED she was happy. She ASSUMED I didn't care.

Assumptions breed lack of communications.

So there is where I feel that I am doing the same mistake all over again. I thought she was happy and content, but she wasn't. Now, I assume she knows the consequences of Plan B, but does she?

My first assumption destroyed my M. My second one may keep me from repairing it.

Does that make sense?

HC2

Exactly.

And in my own little world here, I've got to make a plan... just have to - that's the only thing that can keep me (marginally) sane.

And my plan at this point is:

- Stay in Plan B unless contacted - going dark (exceptions below)
- Be perfectly Plan A when in contact; in fact, make her salivate, LOL
- Encourage some "chats" - she knows what I mean, we've already had one
- Chats: Done in as relaxed an atmosphere as possible. I listen, she listens. She talks, I talk. I ask her what her plan is, she evades. I start to illustrate my position. She gets more and more nervous. I ask the questions that she uses to paint herself into a corner. She may lash out - or she may realize what she's saying. Much as the Harleys move folks along a path of reasoning, I move us to a point of "yea" or "nay" for continuing.
- If it's "yea", it's because she's agreeing to what I need, and behaving more like a real W.
- If it's "nay", I give her a "Plan D" letter - letting her know I'm done fighting for the M (but that it's still her responsibility to file for Dv - I'm NOT doing that, regardless!!!) - and back to NC (I'll be plenty ready!)

So I've got a bit of everything... A, B, D, Divorce Busting, etc. Will it confuse her? Well, we talked about my boundaries already and why I'm willing to talk with her now, and she seemed to accept that. In fact, it's my job to make things perfectly CLEAR. My goal is to leave her no "out" from this... she WILL KNOW that she had every chance in the world.

hc2,

No offense taken. This is an interesting discussion and a subtle one. Let me ask you and JR something. If you had handed your WW's a Plan B letter specifying that, you would hang on as long as you could,but you could not guarentee that you would be there at the end, would that have made you feel better?

I agree about the assumptions and that is why I stated those two as I did. I suspect it would be better said in the letter.

I guess my point was that with the deadline approach, there comes a point of reevaluation. It seems to me that is when you want to talk with WW. So you give time for Plan B to work on you, time for the affair to work itself down the line, and then you perhaps inquire about the status of things.

I personally have no problem with how JR is handling his situation. There does need to be discussion of where things are going eventually. I think what I was trying to say is that when one READs about Plan B the Harley's could do nothing else but push NO CONTACT. But I also suspect that they don't feel that the next contact with WS is the divorce papers being delivered. Although that does happen and in many cases should happen. The WS is not interested and is in full affair when the BS runs out of gas and pacts it in. Nothing to talk about then.

I think if you read about people that are counseling with SH or Jenn, you see that Plan B is used strickly but there is room for inquiry. In Spacecase's situation she is going to stil talk to SH.

JR, one comment. If you want the divorce and to move on, why worry about her filing? Just do it and get it over with. This really isn't a contest to see who blinks first. If she wants a D and you don't then she files. If you decide you want a D, then you file. It is not a contest really. Just don't do something you don't want to do is the real advice.

One final thing about plan B, YOU control the contact, unless WS decides to divorce or decides to get rid of OP.

Must go, God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No offense taken. This is an interesting discussion and a subtle one. Let me ask you and JR something. If you had handed your WW's a Plan B letter specifying that, you would hang on as long as you could,but you could not guarentee that you would be there at the end, would that have made you feel better? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good points JL.

I'm going to throw this one back in MY lap for just a moment. Reading the other opinions, and thinking about questions that have been asked, I am trying to do a little honest soul-searching here.

You asked if I would have felt better if I had put the "moving on" step in my letter. Well, there are actually TWO answers to that one.

1 -- Looking at it now? Yes. But...hindsight is 20/20.

2 -- At the time of the letter? Well....that's a little different. Do we really want to admit to ourselves that this may not work? Can we actually foresee that happening? Maybe not. When going to Plan B, there still is the intention of making the M work. Sometimes I think, a lot of us at the time we go to Plan B, do not even want to entertain that thought. We still are very much hoping for the best. I think we tend to place the negative thoughts somewhat on the back burner. The fact of moving on is probably the LAST thing we think about. But...each of us are different, I suppose.

As to my scenario, the fact that the WW HAS filed, but really has shown signs of NOT wanting it at times, tend to make you walk on eggshells. Makes you very, very, careful. Especially when going to plan B. Remember, there is still love left, and your M has "one foot in the grave". What I tend to do is reflect on my indifference, and wonder if that is where SHE is, now. Sort of a mexican standoff, if you will.

HC2

By the way, J.R.:

I was lurking over on Space's thread and read this that you posted:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - I did experience withdrawal again afterwards... it was tough.

- She backed off big time afterwards for a while, if I recall... I think once she thought I was "there" for her, she could start misbehaving again.

They really are children... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you sure that your W doesn't have a sister that she doesn't know about? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Your sitch and mine are eerily similar, down to the minute details...

HC2

JR,

Interesting thread. I hope you don't mind if I chime in?

If it's "nay", I give her a "Plan D" letter - letting her know I'm done fighting for the M (but that it's still her responsibility to file for Dv - I'm NOT doing that, regardless!!!) - and back to NC (I'll be plenty ready!)

JR, just a question, what would you do if you got to this point and then she did or would not file yet not willing to commit to the M? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

It's really more of a question to think through the answer so that you (or any of us) are prepared when we reach that point.

God Bless,

D.

Eve'nin all

JL: If you had handed your WW's a Plan B letter specifying that, you would hang on as long as you could,but you could not guarentee that you would be there at the end, would that have made you feel better?

JR: Possibly... it would be honest. Not that what I did say was DIShonest - at the time. At the time, I loved her and was willing to talk. Now, I'm still willing to talk... but about different things, and from a very different angle. More of a "here's what I'm feeling and what I'm going to do about it."

JL: I guess my point was that with the deadline approach, there comes a point of reevaluation. It seems to me that is when you want to talk with WW. So you give time for Plan B to work on you, time for the affair to work itself down the line, and then you perhaps inquire about the status of things.

JR: This is exactly the sense I got from Steve, last conversation we had. He asked when the last time I'd talked to her about "things" - and I had to admit a long, long time ago. So it was suggested that yeah - we talk about where we are, where we're going. Steve suggested that if she's not going to change her tune with some ACTION (not just the lovey dovey words I'd been hearing), to go back to NC Plan B. It's this whole mix of what to do and what I really want that's preying on my mind.

JL: If you want the divorce and to move on, why worry about her filing? Just do it and get it over with. This really isn't a contest to see who blinks first.

JR: I was saying that mostly based on the basic premise that I've always lived: I oppose divorce, even in my situation. Let me clarify... I may NEED a divorce yet still not WANT one in a way. I can't explain it very well. I think even if I end up wanting one, I won't in a way... It's just such a foreign concept to my mind that it's hard to process. That doesn't mean I'm not prepared for it... being prepared and consciously desiring it are different, I think. Accepting and wanting are different. Hmmm... maybe radical acceptance is where the acceptance becomes needing... or wanting??? Okay, too much for my mind right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

hcii: When going to Plan B, there still is the intention of making the M work.

JR: I think that's why a "by the book" Plan B letter states this... because the Harleys seem to carry a lot of concern about how the WS will PERCEIVE Plan B... and if it's perceived as giving up, the WS often-times gives up, I suspect. BUT... there's plenty of other examples where they don't. It really takes knowing our spouses, I suppose. That's a tall order, since this person I now see as my WW is very much a stranger. Ways that have worked in the past are out the window.

hcii: Are you sure that your W doesn't have a sister that she doesn't know about?

JR: Yeah, it's spooky. The big difference is that mine can't hardly spell the Dv word. But she has to OM - I know that first-hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WGTT: JR, just a question, what would you do if you got to this point and then she did or would not file yet not willing to commit to the M?

JR: Very, very good question... Hmm... Why wouldn't she? She lives far, far from where she works, staying there because she "doesn't want to send me the wrong message" - her recent words. If I'm not even in the state, let alone country... why wouldn't she do something to protect her financial interests, etc. She makes less than 25% of our total income - she feels guilty about making demands for $, but has certain legal rights. It ain't cheap to live here, and I won't continue to support her if we get to that point. In a way, that point becomes the truest, fullest, harshest of Plan B's - because I'll be nowhere close to even "drop by", the $ source will be gone, she won't have any reason to be here other than her work and an OM who would be moving back overseas later anyhow... I just don't see her NOT doing so. In reality, I'd probably give it 6 months then just do it myself. Maybe by then I'd both want and need it.

JR ~

I think you are using a partial truth to kinda twist things to your own ends.

Plan B is really not meant to force the WS to change. It is something that protects the BS from the WS until A. the WS changes or B. the BS changes, (ie gives up and moves on).

The point is to do the communicating before you go to plan B. If you are needing to pop out of Plan B to communicate "where you are at", you are simply using Plan B as a manipulation. IE "Hurry up and change WS, I'm losing patience. Fix it on my time line or ELSE!"

The fact of the matter is that if you are on Plan B, and the WS isn't showing any signs of changing, then popping out of Plan B to say: "I'm losing patience, this isn't 'working'!" then you weren't doing your Plan B to protect yourself (drawing a boundary) - you were doing it to force (control) your spouse to change.

Radical honesty is not for Plan B. Radical honesty is for recovery. MAYBE in Plan A - but even that I have my doubts about. Radical honesty is NOT meant to be used as a threat or an ultimatum, and frankly, what you are talking about in this thread, is exactly that.

As badly as this may hurt to hear it, but if the WS isn't making any move to recover the marriage after some months of Plan B, then the WS probably just doesn't care. So popping out of Plan B to say: "HEY I'm giving up" won't really have the desired affect. All it does is weaken your Plan B letter, and let the WS know that they can keep on doing what they are doing, because you are still engaged in the game.

Divorce papers are more than adequate communication that you've given up and moved on.

In fact, I'd like to suggest that the fact that you have the desire to communicate your feelings to your spouse (hoping that THIS time what you say will have any effect even tho it hasn't in the past) means that you aren't even close to ready to get divorced because you are still engaged in the relationship emotionally.

A divorce decree, a little piece of paper, doesn't make the pain go away or help you detach from the relationship.

Stay in Plan B JR, and stop looking for loopholes!

I have to agree with BR...something about your altered Plan B has had me wondering if it's been for the best or even Plan B at all. The snooping...is not letting go. And remember I said it was just causing the LB$ to deplete all the more. And at a mere 6 weeks you opened the door back up and have had "friendly" contact ever since. I know it CAN work your way if she pulls her head out or whatever...but it's definatly not the MB plan and it doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as you want.

I dunno JR...it does kind of seem like you're working hard to play the game instead of letting the game play itself out.

BR, I appreciate your perspective... Here's my take on it...

If you take a look at what I'm saying, I'm saying that I'm willing to talk based on my feelings... which as others here have noted isn't necessarily a "bad thing"... because I'm NOT saying "Do This"...

Now, I realize that many out there are willing to tow a hard line... But I don't think ANYONE is willing to say there's an absolute right or wrong... Even in my latest discussion with Steve, he was the one to suggest a discussion with my WW. Not to throw his name around like it somehow magically validates everything I do... but I do value his input. I think his advice is based on simple respect and honesty. And it's based on a right I have as her husband and she has as my wife - to be open.

I think of DeWayne's story... how he's noted in the past that if he listened to everyone on the boards, he'd be Dv'd by now - because while everyone was talking Plan B, Plan B... he "knew his spouse" - and that Plan B would only have acted to have her give up - and he had her confirm that at a later date... after recovery.

And so maybe I'm trying my best to - one last time - connect with my wife... To find out what she really wants - what her plans are - what direction she wants to go.

As for the timing - having done it before Plan B... if things were only so simple and perfect, but none of us are dealing with ideals, I don't think. Maybe a part of this is having me make sure I've explored all avenues. If she wants to end it - then fine... I'm not here to pressure her, or say, "Fix it on my time line or ELSE"... I'm more on board with Pepper's posting on this thread...

"THIS is exactly correct. It is a simply stated FACT ... "I have decided to do this ...." No if's and's or but's.

I said to my WH, "Goodbye. We are done with this." I was not asking him to change anything. It was a fact. I was done. No waiting. No fighting ... it was spoken calmly and with precision. HIS response was , "I'll do whatever it takes RIGHT NOW to keep you." ... followed by immediate actions, of course.

You have to know what you want. And to know what reality is. Accept the reality as-is. Compare the two (your wants and accepted reality as-is)... and then make a decision. With no whining. No threats. No "If you do this I'll do that."

H4F,

"something about your altered Plan B has had me wondering if it's been for the best or even Plan B at all"

Well, whatever labels we want to use, it is what it is... we're separated, we talk infrequently, we have recently talked about the R in a slightly productive way, and if I follow Steve's advice, we either find some common ground to build on, or I go back to a much more distant stance... I actually think it's pretty simple, clear, and logical.

"The snooping...is not letting go"

Well, this is definitely true. It's been a problem at certain times... but not so much recently.

"And at a mere 6 weeks you opened the door back up and have had "friendly" contact ever since"

I think the best way to describe it would be similar to what I believe was... I wish I could recall the poster's name now... Dave? Anyhow, it was Plan B, but Plan A during contact... even SAA explains it this way, too. I haven't initiated any contact myself to speak of, but contact that has happened has been pleasant, yes.

"but it's definatly not the MB plan and it doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as you want"

Again, in my reply to BR, I note that it comes down to knowing her... and knowing that this has a "lifetime" to it, and following it through to a natural conclusion requires some well thought-out feedback - at least in the short-term. I've got to go with Steve (and IC/MC for that matter) on this one.

"it does kind of seem like you're working hard to play the game instead of letting the game play itself out"

Oh, it's definitely playing out... and I'm doing my own thing... that might be part of the thing... my thing is allowing me to detach more and more and more. I've definitely been focused much more on myself lately - it helps a lot.

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: J.R. ]</small>

Well, I'm glad to hear you're feeling focused on yourself...and I do think that that's the main key. Not trying to educate her or force change...but simply to let her know that you're dangerously close to done. The timing is probably what bugs me...only 6 weeks of "down" time...that's not much at all...and then the door was opened and never really closed much. But, you already know, H and I never even came CLOSE to doing anything the MB way and we managed to pull it off anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I do agree that you know your WS better than anyone...and it is YOUR LIFE and your marriage you're dealing with...so by all means do it your way! You also had a very lengthy and picture perfect Plan A...so that probably gives your Plan B some leway.

Dear JR, I'm just wondering if you feel that maybe there is something else you could do to save your marriage?

I identify with what your saying very much. Its like plan B is a gift to WS because they know your waiting so there's no urgency to do anything, meanwhile you're going crazy.

I feel like coming out of plan B, because I still wonder if there's something else I could have done.

I can see valid points in all opinions on this thread. Plan B is plan B, but people are not all the same, so why would the same plan B work for everyone? Everyone has a different take on plan B, its getting very confusing.