"Its like plan B is a gift to WS because they know your waiting so there's no urgency to do anything, meanwhile you're going crazy."

I don't think that's supposed to be the idea Seahorse. I know the BS is going crazy and assuming the WS is getting a free ride with no fear and no consequences...but that often isn't really the case. The WS often becomes very curious as to what their spouse is up to and will often worry that they might lose them to someone else.

That's actually the largest problem I seen in JR's version of Plan B...he assured her he wasn't seeing someone. Yes, that was the truth...but he shouldn't have been in a position to have to admit that. He's frustrated that she's not moving faster to get off the fence...yet he's actually aided her in feeling more comfortable to sit there. I understand his reasoning for these current talks...so that she understands he's just about had it...but that, to me, was the point of "lights out, complete silence, stealth mode"...so that she would wonder and worry and NOT KNOW whether or not he was moving on or still waiting. It's the fear of losing the BS that often wakes up the WS. JR's wife is still too comfortable to pull out of it. This method will probably work (lets hope!!) but not as expediently, and possibly not as deeply. This method seems more like slowly coaxing her to pull her head out, instead of letting panic and reality cause her to do it herself. I think the WS "gets it" better when the decision is theirs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That's actually the largest problem I seen in JR's version of Plan B...he assured her he wasn't seeing someone. Yes, that was the truth...but he shouldn't have been in a position to have to admit that. He's frustrated that she's not moving faster to get off the fence...yet he's actually aided her in feeling more comfortable to sit there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Therein lies my problem.

Since I still reside at home, the WW can still "monitor" me, because she moved just next door. She knows that I've never had anyone there. She can basically see most of my moves. However, it is not simple to just move away, because I cannot afford to maintain TWO homes. I am still paying the mortgage, etc., here by myself.

But...I can see where this situation COULD be a blessing. I just need to think of some ways that will make her NOT know what I am up to. I really need to be away more often. Actually, instead of her wondering what I am doing, I need to let her visibly SEE that I am up to SOMETHING, but not let her know what.

In reading a lot of posts from everyone here concerning Plan A/B, I can see different dynamics, which then offer us different perspectives. Such as, There is, I would think, a totally different strategy when the WS is still initiating moderate contact, than when the WS has appeared to be "enjoying" the separation, and NOT caring to contact the BS.

For example, in Spacecase's sitch, his W was always there. She never left, and from reading his posts was not concerned with DV. So...in essence...there was SOME reason she wanted the M. That is something to work with.

In my situation, when the A was discovered by me, my WW said see ya, I'm in love with OM, I want a DV, and she files. So really, if one thinks about it, Plan B is non-existant in my case. Why do I think that? Well...since Plan B is to allow the BS to detach, that is a moot point due to the fact that if the WS ends the M, you're gonna detach whether you plan B or not. As far as the "secondary" purpose of Plan B, to let the WS feel what it is like without you filling EN's, that is also a moot point in that they have already decided to do that to YOU. So...even though after a while the WS may discover that is NOT what they want, at the time IT IS, so I think that Plan B in this instance is going to be a longer, harder road.

So...basically...Plan A/B is going to be VERY different for each unique situation. Ones in where the WS's attitude towards the sitch HAS to be taken into consideration.

My 2cents

HC2

I can empathize Seahorse, but I don't want to give the impression that I don't believe in the Plan A / B approach.

I do want to point out that no-one has ever executed either to "perfection"... situations change, things happen. In the end, I'm coming to firmly believe, it's about the individual - what do I feel is right in my own heart.

And it's also about truly "knowing your spouse." I think back to talking with Steve before Plan B... and he asked me "well, is she the type to cling, or run away?" (with respect to how she might behave if I left, in Plan B). See... no-one... not Steve... not Jennifer... not all the well-meaning therapists out there... not all the well-meaning friends and family in the world... not all the well-meaning posters on these boards... none of them are in the exact positions we're in. None of them has to live with our choices - except for us.

And there's plenty of "philosophies" out there... check out the Divorce Busting message board... plenty of folks in the same sitch's, trying to do their best also. (But maybe with a different angle than what's seen here - right or wrong? Do what works - don't do what doesn't in the end. And do what works for you first - spouse second. Selfish? Could debate that I suppose.)

I do believe Plan A / B are a great tool to help the BS through recovery. But every recovery is different, and every plan is suject to change as conditions change. I personally think one needs to examine their motives and goals before changing their plans...

I think my thread was started in an effort for me to journal a progressive change in myself, and to reexamine my sitch. I see others who's had this occur after 4-5 months... others 1-2 years... others, never.

I've found myself posting less and coming here less... I guess that's starting to tell me something, too.

In the end, I suspect it comes down to doing what you believe is right in your heart - and knowing your spouse.

Pepper:

"I said to my WH, "Goodbye. We are done with this." I was not asking him to change anything. It was a fact. I was done. No waiting. No fighting ... it was spoken calmly and with precision. HIS response was , "I'll do whatever it takes RIGHT NOW to keep you." ... followed by immediate actions, of course."

Wish I could have been better able 2 determine if I was ready 2 say "goodbye" last month! I wasn't, it turned out. Maybe not by a long shot. Now, I am much better able 2 tell that I want my W 2 be happy, whatever that takes, and I want 2 be happy, whatever that takes. I don't want 2 stay M'd if either of us can't be happy in the process, but I don't think that's the case.

hcii:

"Mine and my WW's assumptions got us into the mess we're in. Through laziness, or being lax in our M, I ASSSUMED she was happy. She ASSUMED I didn't care."

I assumed my W was unhappy for reasons I couldn't control or change. She assumed I didn't care.

"Assumptions breed lack of communications."

Very definitely. And this continues... Now, with me not LBing at all, we're also not talking at all about Rat Meat. Is this a good thing? Well, the "evidence" I have is that my W is frantically trying 2 get her report done and behind her, she's telling me about that, but I hear NOTHING about whether she continues 2 talk 2 him via email or not, or what "plans" she has regarding this privacy issue. Instead, we're looking in2 buying another house soon, 2 move 2 while ours is being worked on, and then 2 rent or sell after that. Lots of signs of "commitment" 2 our family on her part, but is that enough? Is it safe 2 assume that she's committed 2 working on our M? I honestly don't know. Certainly this isn't enough by itself in the long term, but for now? Maybe.

JL:
"What seems to be forgotten on this site is that Dr. Harley is NOT opposed to divorce. His original concept was that many divorces could be prevented IF his approach is applied. I don't recall ever reading that he felt that divorce shouldn't occur."

I remember glomming on2 the fact that he says somewhere in HNHN that some M's have no chance faced with long-term As. I had little hope for quite a while after reading that.

"In fact he states, categorically, that if his W cheated he would divorce her. Recall that their children are grown and many factors are different."

Why does he say this? Is it because his W should know better because this is his focus? Is he "tougher" than the rest of us? Remember, Peggy Vaughn stayed with her H after something like 15 separate As in 7 years! Why did SHE do THAT?

My kids will be "grown" in 3 years. Should I be worried that my W will stray or want 2 end our M simply because we won't have kids 2 raise anymore? What about grandkids? What about Xmas?

I certainly feel sometimes like I'd rather be DV'd than deal with all this, or even live with the memory that my W cheated, and my sitch is (currently, at least) far more hopeful than J.R.'s or hcii's. But then I remember the good times we've had, and the electricity I STILL feel when I hold her hand, and I ask myself again "How did things ever get this crazy, and what can I do to fix this?"

I sincerely hope that I never have 2 try plan B again. My life is just 2 complicated 2 make that work, I feel. I also sincerely hope that the closeness we're sharing is the beginning of all the things I need our M 2 be - with radical honesty first and foremost (which will make ALL the other ENs possible by making the secret second life impossible).

Well, I've digressed from J.R.'s thread like a Mo' Fo'. I'll stop here and read the REST of the posts before I say any more! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I should explain ....

I was "done" because I no longer had any respect for my H. NONE.

I cannot be M'd to a man I do not respect. Love had nuthin' to do with it.

It is very important for me to be able to respect my man. This might be a difference between men and women as BS's.

Do you guys respect your wives? Do you feel you cannot stay M's if you lose respect for them?

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pep:

That's it, I guess. I DO respect my W. And, I wouldn't want 2 stay M'd 2 her if I didn't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here is a rough draft of what I would like to say, or send to my WW. Sort of a "going away" letter. It contains a lot that was not expressly communicated in the Plan B letter.

Most of it was compiled by taking a lot of other peoples Plan B letters (Mostly SC...hope ya don't mind. But...I guess if it saved my M you would be very happy to help). Anyway, there are many metaphors that have been used here at MB, and also a lot of just general quote that I thought were nice.

Sure...It may sound to some that it is trying to "educate", but if the WS hasn't "got it", and the M is on its last legs, what is trying to educate going to hurt.

I guess you could call it "firing a warning shot". Some may disagree to the content and the purpose, but hey...when its critically on the line, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

Here we go:

My Dearest Txxxx,

This is a very difficult letter for me to write; one that has been weighing on my heart and mind for some time.

I know that you've been unhappy for a long time, for many reasons, some of which you may not be sure of. I'm aware that my behavior in the past contributed in part to your unhappiness and the emotional distancing between us. I've worked very hard these past 5 or 6 months to overcome that behavior, not only for you, but for me as well. I want to be a better husband, someday a good father, but most importantly a better person. I realized people can change if they're willing to take a long, hard look in the mirror and hold themselves accountable for who they are. I am doing that and I'm proud of the person I've started to become.

It is evident that our marriage has suffered due to neglect by both of us. While striving to meet the needs of others we have missed meeting each other’s needs. I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that hurt our relationship. I foolishly pursued my career thinking I was doing the right thing for us, without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

Our marriage has suffered a great deal from difficulties in communicating. I have thought many hours and days about what you had to go through for the past 2 years. I have tried my best to place myself in that position, and imagine what it would be like to try to maintain 2 separate lives. I can imagine the stress. You had to keep everything to yourself. It must have been very hard for you to keep that up for so long. I realize also how lonely it must have been for you to be constantly next to someone you could not confide in.

I will never forget, but I am fully capable of forgiveness; if you will let me forgive. I was taught that God forgives even those who are “unfaithful” to him. He has commanded us to be in his likeness, and forgive others as well. He placed no criteria on forgiveness. We are to forgive each other in the same level of importance that HE places on it. We are to forgive each other, no matter the reason, according to him. There is never a reason to not forgive.

I have thought about my mistakes and I am willing to work hard to correct them and create a new life for both of us that will meet both our needs. I love you and I want our marriage to work but in order to preserve my love for you I am no longer able to maintain contact with you until you have come to the conclusion of what you have decided to do with your life.

I understand now many things about myself and my actions and how they affected and hurt you. I am willing to work on them, and change them, but please understand that I cannot do that while we are not working on this together. I am truly sorry we have reached this point, but I am no longer willing to live under the conditions that you want. I cannot continue to provide you with the “security” of knowing I am still here for you, and to work on the things I know I need to work on to make you happy, while you are not willing to see or work on or do any of the things I need in order to be happy with you.

I will also not be able to help you financially in meeting all of our current obligations. I will continue to pay the mortgage, but I will not be able to pay for insurance and other expenses. You will have to cover this yourself. If you want I will allow you to come to the house to see our precious “children”. I will make sure to try not to be here when you are. I will continue to leave your mail in the mailbox and I will continue to pick mine up myself. Until I make other arrangements, I will only communicate with you regarding the cats. If you need to communicate with me regarding any other matter, it should be through a friend, unless it is an emergency, in which case I will take your call.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way. You must be aware of the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with your friend. I simply cannot continue like this any longer, while knowing that you heart is with him, and that I am just “second-best”. These things are slowly destroying the remaining love I feel for you; so although I still love you, I must not see you in order to preserve the love I have left.

I do not want to end this relationship with animosity and anger in my heart. I am certain, though, that if I remain in this situation as it is, those emotions are sure to follw.

But, if you are willing to demonstrate in a credible way, and are willing to follow measures to ensure the renewal of our marriage, then we can talk about our future together. I say the “renewal” of our marriage because it will be just that; We cannot make the mistake we made in the past, thinking that by just trying to repair the marriage we had, that it would work itself out. Our old marriage is gone and will never be again. But that is not bad. Our old marriage got us into this situation, and I feel that a “new” relationship with each other will give us a fresh start. We also must learn from our old marriage, and take the steps necessary to make sure that it is much stronger in the future.

Love is not a “feeling”. It is an action. In order for love to grow it has to be fed, nurtured, tended to, and be loved itself. The “feeling” of love we know comes from the earlier years in our life. Remember the first time you thought you were in love? If you think about it, at the time, that feeling was very strong. But…it faded after a time. Why? Because, actually, when we are young as teenagers, Love is not on the top of our list. Because of that, we do not try to maintain it. We do not feed it, take care of it, and nurture it. We are convinced when we are young that love will last forever. But...we find out that it doesn’t. It takes work for love to survive.

Love does not pop out of thin air. To wait on the “feelings” to return before doing anything is the wrong thing to do. We were not in love with each other the first time we met. Nor, the second. Or the third. It was the work and nurturing that we did for each other that caused the love to develop. All we began with at first was just a common interest in each other. Nothing more. We worked and developed the love from that first step. It took time. Imagine saying that you are going to wait until your muscles and body look good BEFORE you start working out. That’s not going to happen. You have to do the work FIRST, then, and only then, will you reap the rewards of your work. Love is the same.

Txxxx, divorce is not the cure. You spoke of going through with the divorce, and maybe getting together again some day. That will never happen. Divorce will NOT give neither you, nor I, amnesia. There is nothing short of our deaths that will cause us to forget the past. We must be willing to accept this, and learn from it. I have. I hope that you can too. Although we will never forget, we can forgive, and must for our own well-being.

I can think of 14 years worth of reasons to try to rebuild this marriage. But…once it is over and destroyed, I must move on. After I have moved on with my life, I cannot think of one reason to return.

I understand how difficult this may be for you, considering all that we have had to endure. I will make every effort to provide you with comfort and support as we work through this together. Counseling can help us do this, as well as help us create a plan that we can both agree on. I am willing to sacrifice my every luxury in order to afford this.

I gave you forgiveness as a gift to you because I love you. It is up to you whether you accept that forgiveness gracefully or otherwise.

You are NOT a bad person. You have NOT killed "my love". I thought a part of me died when I found out about your other relationship, but now I realize that what "died" was my blind trust in you. Blind anything isn't good. I can let that go any day. I am working on rebuilding my trust in you, but I'll never blindly trust anybody or anything again. I think of that as a growth thing for me. That is a positive step in my own betterment.

I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our marriage, but I will no longer accept responsibility for your part. I want you to come back to me emotionally but I know that can only come from you. I want us to spend the rest of our lives together. I can forgive you, if you will let me. I believe in you. I marvel at what you've done for us and for so many others over the years. You made yourself the person you are today. Nobody else did. I believe we can jointly arrive at a positive plan that will ensure we're both happy with our lives together. Trust can be rebuilt, if you are willing to rebuild it, and allow me to rebuild it.

I love you Txxxx, my love; you will always be very special to me. I look back through our life and I choose now to only remember the good times and learn from the bad. I forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will forgive me too. I hope that we can work it out and be the best of friends. I hope with all of my heart that we can both put aside our harsh feelings and frustrations and see the good, and see the hope. I am willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage, and for both of us to recover our love for each other.

However, over the course of the past several months I have fought the biggest, and most important fight of my life. It is beginning to seem to me, though, that my efforts were in vain. Although I can truly say that I did my all, it is obvious that I cannot fight for you. You must do that yourself. I only wish that we could have taken the challenge, and conquered this together.

I just cannot bear to be with you or see you while you have no desire to gain back what we once had. The efforts that I put forth are not enough to mend this. It will take both of us. The pain from the desire to be with you is way too great. I’ve loved you since I met you, I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you today; perhaps even more than I ever did before. I look at the pictures of us on the beach on ocean's level, all the way to the top of the highest mountains that we climbed, and all the other places that we spent together in between, and I remember the dreams and the hopes, the stars, and the sunsets we watched. I remember our first time together, and I still believe those dreams are possible. I still feel the electricity when you walk into the room where I am.

It is apparent, now, if I am to find the happiness that I need and deserve, that I must move on. I truly wish it could be with you, but unfortunately, it looks like that will not happen now. You may take all of the time you feel you need to find what you want in your life, and if one day you should choose to try to make it work with me, I hope I will still be there so that we can do it together.

When we married I thought it would be forever and never considered that we would be apart one day. The thought that we may not grow old together truly, truly pains me.

Take care, and be grateful for the gift of forgiveness I have given you.

HCII

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>