UGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm really weirded out right now. I was hoping that my H starting to read 'His Needs, Her Needs' would end up being a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I didn't imagine that this would not mean some tough questions...but here is a synopsis of what happened when he did:

H read that most A's are passionate, affair of the heart type A's (you know..the really hard ones to break free from) and that they involve really passionate sex. So, he asked me why I have been lying this whole time about the OM and what sex was like with him (we only had actual intercourse once)! First of all, I'm NOT lying! I can't remember if Harley address this issue in his book (I know he does on this site) but my A started out as an online relationship. OM lives in another state. I was separated from H. I only met OM in person after I had filed for divorce. I 'fell' for OM based on what I thought he was 'online'. When I finally met OM in person, I found out that much of what I thought he was...the man I fell in love with...is not what he really was. Did I have passionate feelings for him (of a sexual nature)? Yes, up until the time I actually met him. I had not had relations with my H in almost 9 years..and I was very interested in being with the OM physically...because I thought we were in love. He met my EN's in a BIG BIG way! I fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

Well, reality smacked me in the face when upon meeting him...I discovered he was mostly talk...and he was the most incredibly selfish lover I had ever been with. I was so crushed..I figured it was me...that I wasn't pretty enough...or skinny enough for him (I had lost tons of weight by this time through stress, etc.). He was only interested in me 'servicing' him. He was supposed to move down here after we met...after he 'tied up a few loose ends'...but after he drove off (from the time we met)..I didn't hear from him for over a week. I felt like a stupid high school girl again that finally 'gave it up'...and then was dumped.

It took me several more months to process all of this..no, the feelings did not immediately die for the OM..even after this. I tried to figure out if it was just a fluke...maybe he was nervous..I tried to rationalize/justify it any way I could. After brief meetings with him 2 more times, I realized my worst fears were coming true. The OM did not like to touch me in a sexual way...it will remain in my mind as one of the most humiliating experiences in my entire life. Yes, I know...if I hadn't cheated...this would not have happened. To this day, I grieve over all of it. However, I DID NOT lie...how do I convince my H of that!!!

Online relationships ARE different in some aspects from A's that start with a known/local person. There was never any passionate, wild sex for me with the OM. H thinks I'm lying because of the book.

The other point H is now convinced I am lying about (after reading some of Harley's book) is this...somewhere it mentions that many times when an A first starts....your M may seem to improve for a bit...because the WS is getting unmet needs fulfilled by the OP...and so some of the pressure is taken off the BS..and the WS appears happier for a bit. Well, H is now thinking that my A started way before February of 2001...like in the Fall of 2000..because we had had a horrible relationship for about 10 years..and then I 'seemed happier' starting in the Fall of 2000. I started going to church..and reading the bible in the Fall of '00 in my effort to prove or disprove..once and for all..the existence of God (I had been a lifelong atheist until this point). I made friends at the church..and started attending bible studies, etc. This is why I was happier!! And H knows that this is when I started doing all of this. I met the OM online in February of 2001 - we didn't even have the internet in our house until January of 2001!! H even put a spy program on our pc so he has records of almost all the early convo's!! Darn it..he can tell by reading them...that it was a new relationship. Does he think I had an affair with possibly an OM#2 in the Fall??

OK folks..I have about had it here...I will take responsibility for ALL of my lies..and the pain I caused..but I cannot..and will not be continually accused of everything else under the sun! I was hoping H's reading the book would help. I never expected to get accused of additional things that I never did. How in the world can I prove that I didn't do the things above to my H??

Help me, please! I'm ready to reconsider getting a D...because I feel like this is a no-win (and I mean a 'win' for our M..not me personally) situation. If he can't forgive, he needs to be honest and let me go.

Sorry for being so needy...I just don't know where else to turn...

YR

oops...I posted this twice! guess I wasn't thinking. I have emailed one of the moderators asking them to delete the duplicate. Hopefully, they will fix it soon.

YR

You're certainly not being needy here. It's great that you're getting it out of your system on MB. Otherwise, it could be a huge LB headed straight for your H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

There isn't any one thing that you can do or say to make your H believe you. The best you can do is to answer all of his questions as best as you can, and as honest as you can. Trust me, that over time, your H won't "need to know" all of those gory details of the A. This is just the step he has to go through right now before he can reach the next step. It's all part of HIS healing (for now, you can use us here at MB to help with YOUR healing.... ideally, your H will take over once he's ready).

Does it help to know that I believe you??? Because I really do!!! I also think that your H needs to focus more on the information on an EMOTIONAL AFFAIR as opposed to a physical affair. Your A was more of an EA, that happened to turn to PA. Does your H understand the similarities and (more importantly) differences between the two?

You have a lot of work ahead of you, to build back that level of trust between you and your H. This is only just one level of recovery. Much of it can be smooth sailing... but there are lots of sections of choppy waters ahead (like now). Just hold on tight, stick to MB and its principles, and munch on those pretzel sticks until the waters calm down again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

YR,

I think you have it a bit wrong. It is good that your H is asking. I would print your post here and say: "I am glad you asked and here is the answer to these questions. They are the truth and the only question I have for you is, Can you deal with the truth?"

"I am happy or at least willing to deal with your questions but if you are going to ask, be ready for honest answers because that is all you are going to get."

Then I wouldn't worry about it too much. You see he has to make up his own mind. All you can do is answer the questions. But, he must also realize that if you finally get fed up, then the marriage will be over. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

All of this stuff is a two way street. I am sure he hurt, but he has options and so do you that is also part of MB.

Just being nosey here but you stated you had not had relations for 9 years?? What was that about? You surely don't have to answer if you don't want to.

My only real recommendation is to be very honest with him. Let him do the checking, but it is up to him to handle the truth.

God Bless,

JL

Topie25 - I can't tell you how much it meant that you replied to my post. You have always been so nice to take the time to do this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does it help to know that I believe you??? Because I really do!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to tell you...this made me cry! YES!! It means so very much to see/hear you say that. It made my day..and I thank you from the bottom of my heart!!

I'm not sure that my H understands the difference between an EA and a PA...perhaps on an intellectual level...but..not like we do after being educated on this board..and by Harley's books. I do have SAA....I have left it around..in case H wanted to peruse it. If I try to 'educate' him too much..he digs in his heels. That's why I was bowled over that he read 'His Needs, Her Needs'...and even more shocked by what he said later.

Topie - you are right that I have alot of work ahead of me...I never realized how much until recently...I laughed when I saw that you remembered the 'pretzel stick' thing. I noted that you and I share something in common..my real name is Karen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

JL - lol..where do I begin? I'll take your first comment...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you have it a bit wrong </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I giggled (tinged with slight sound of sheer hysteria) when I read this from you...yeah, I'm not surprised...I'm getting used to having y'all help keep me straight/interpret things. A month ago, this comment would have raised my 'dander'..along with 'vehement denials' about how not being the case....now I just grin, accept it, and try to figure out what to do about it...making progress? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

H has told me he wants the truth...and then when I tell him..it's like "I didn't want to know that"...BS's/JL...um...can you tell me how I should figure this one out?? I try not to do 'gory details'..then he presses...I give them..and etc. etc.

JL - I will try to use more of the phrasings that you have suggested. They have always appealed to me...I just gotta remember them..and use them! I think he kind of knows that he is pushing me pretty far in some instances. I do want to work on the M...I do want to make amends. I desperately want a chance to meet his needs..and not think just about mine...I just need a chance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I know he is hurt..and underneath all my venting..and my 'upset with how he is treating me'..is an ever-present layer of guilt, remorse, and shame for what I did to him. I would give anything in this world to take it back! To make the A a bad dream..but I can't...so I go on..and I try...I want...I really want to ease his hurt..and make things better..I really do.

OK - on the 9 yrs without relations comment..prior to our separation last year..and my EA/PA...I had slept on couch for almost 10 years. We have been married for almost 16. H has had a problem with getting/keeping jobs. He went to college..got degree..then it was supposed to be my turn. My turn never came..but H kept losing jobs..he spent 1 year..unemployed and sleeping..and taking eldest daughter to daycare so he could sleep more. Depressed? Sure..but he had a family to care for. I worked hard..no degree..and slowly rose 'through the ranks'. I worked anywhere between 60 and 80 hours every week for 13 years straight trying to make ends meet. H has run through about 7 or 8 jobs in less than 10 years..has no life insurance..no 401K..nothing..and he is 42 yrs. old. My #1 EN is financial support..followed by domestic support. I asked him if he wanted to 'stay home' with the kids..and he cussed at me. While unemployed..he did not care for the home at all. I about lost my mind trying to work so many hours..drive an hour each way to job...care for kids..home, etc. I got burnt out..we were supposed to work towards me staying home with kids while they were small...but..never happened..so I 'shut down'.

One night...I was exhausted from working 14 straight hours..trying to earn extra money...and I called him..the first and ONLY time I ever asked this...I was starving because I worked through lunch. I wanted to know if he might be willing to fix dinner (he was not employed at the time). Money was tight...and I didn't want to stop for food...but I was so hungry..if he couldn't/wouldn't fix it..I needed to know so I could pick something up. I asked "Would you mind fixing dinner?...If it is something quick..that would be great..because I feel sick and really need to eat as soon as I get home"...well H informed me that "I am not a f*cking house-husband"...and I never ever asked for him to do anything like this again. I ceased feeling anything but hate and resentment. I asked several times about counseling, etc. and he refused to go..finally...in later years..I asked about separation/divorce.

Anyways, I guess this kind of answers your question. I have a really tough time when he says how he can't trust me..and I've betrayed him...because I felt COMPLETELY betrayed, abandoned, and abused for almost 14 years..and I have to bite my tongue over and over. I know, I know..he didn't have an 'A'...honestly, I sometimes wish he had..I would rather he had done that..than many of the things he did over the years to me..including internet porn...

Well, as always, thanks for posting, JL!

Regards,

YR

Heartsore - I accidentally posted this topic twice..and you replied on the 'duplicate' one..so I am moving the content of your reply to this thread...confusing right? LOL..

Here is the post from Heartsore:

hi yellowrose,
I'm the bs, and I think I may be able to offer some advise as to where your husband is coming from in his time line of your affair.
I know for me I spent months and months trying to
peice all the peaces together in my head. We are
nearly 2 years into recovery now, and things are
going really well, but it has taken at least 18 months for me to stop trying to work everything out, his movement/behaviour wise. Largely because I feel so stupid. Stupid that I didn't know he was having an affair, stupid that I trusted him despite the many many strange things happening. I still don't have an exact time line from him, and it is important too me. I have a
rough idea from him, but the peices just don't fit. I think it may have been going on for months before he will admit too. And it has driven me nuts
I can understand why it is driving you nuts too!!
Truely I can, but I think it may be insecurity on
your husbands part. And fear, that it went on for longer than he thought. I really can't put into words why this is so important. What I do know with certainty is that if you have given your h the details (sorry have only seen 1 of your other posts and that was a reply too honey)
that you gave in this post, it should help him a
LOT. Surely knowing someone was not ahem A very adept lover must help him enormously.
I personally would love to hear that my h's ow
was "no good" Sadly I don't think this would be true in our case. Our ow is a prostitute,
so I'm sure she new what she was doing. Oh, h
didn't know that this was her job by the way, he did not know she was a prostitute till months later. YUK!!! Anyhow, I am sidetracking myself here.

When was your d day??

Hang in there yellow rose, it will get better and easier.

hi yellow rose,
I posted too you on your other post, I didn't notice it was posted twice, and I have no idea
how/if it can be moved.

It's good to see your in good company, topie and
JL sure have good advise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> JL helped me a lot
a few months back. (thanks JL) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heartsore -

Thanks for taking time to give me your viewpoint as a BS. I think my H is doing much the same as you did in trying to 'put the pieces' together...I think where he may be going astray is..could he potentially be trying to 'make it make sense'? We all know that having the A will never make sense in the end. I am sure that just like WS's having their processes to go through..the BS's have the same...I just need to learn how to help..or not help as the case may be.

I was glad to hear things are going well for you...wow, 18 months to try to stop working things out in your head? Phew...lots of mental painful gymnastics there!

I see/hear what you mean about the fear that it may have gone on longer that I have revealed..although that is not the case...it took me a while to give him the entire truth..I gave it to him in 'chunks'..which was a bad bad idea!! I am totally at fault in this..and I understand it makes him doubt anything I say...the thing that puzzles me is that he has copies of my emails (from installing the spy thing)...so he has my own words to the OM..and to friends to back up what I'm saying...(I did not know about the spy software...so my emails were not 'planted' either).

You know..I thought it would help him feel better to know that the OM was not..as you so aptly put it, an 'adept' lover...but me telling him that..(after he asked) only seems to reinforce his idea that I'm lying..potentially to spare his feelings. Honestly, I have never told my H just truly how awful a lover he (the OM) was..because me trying to emphasize this would probably only backfire. My H even has a copy of a much later email that I sent to a friend discussing the OM..and what a poor lover he was...ok, I KNOW this is going to sound bad..and it was not nice of me...but we (me and my female friend I was emailing)..discussed how small in size (know what I mean?) he was also....this female had also been lured in by the OM..and he tried to do the same thing with her..promises to marry, meeting her..pushing for sex..twisting bible scripture to make it sound like it was ok, etc. (however, she was NOT married..and she was smart enough to tell him that any 'relations' would have to wait until after they married...). I found out about all of this long after the romantic part of my A with the OM had ended..and I was struggling with grieving over the death of my fantasy..and was not yet willing to let him totally go...was going to be 'his friend'..yeah, right. Soooo, he has some of the details in black and white..whether he wanted them or not...

Regarding your H's OW being a prostitute..and potentially being good in bed because of this..don't bet on it...many prostitutes become very..'mechanical'...in their actions...it could not compare to having sex with someone in a committed loving relationship...except for the illicit thrill it gave him momentarily.

I guess my d-day was towards the end of June...when H discovered that I still had contact with the OM..although it was sporadic...the PA ended last year. I did not understand the concept of an EA...so felt I had 'come clean' enough already...wrong, wrong, wrong...

Hugs to You!

YR

hi yellowrose,
Was it june that you first found out that your h
knew of the a? Why had he installed the software,
had he been suspicious for a while?? (off this topic I know, just call me nosey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Thanks for the laugh re the size issue. Now if that didn't make your h happy, NOTHING will!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
lol.

Yellow rose, it's early days yet, it gets easier,
it just takes (sorry that same old boring word that comes up time and time(ha,ha,ha) again on this site) TIME. I remember feeling so unsafe,
so insecure, so well for want of a better word,
blah. And the revelations and emotions of discovering an affair leave the bs in there own fog. And although it is said that there is Never
any excuse for an affair, your husband sounds as though he wasn't really trying very hard to have a happy/good marriage. (wasn't that a polite way of putting it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Now goodness knows most of us are here at this site for exactly that reason.
Is your h admiting, accepting his part in all this??? What is he doing/feeling at the moment? I think I was too hurt to accept any wrongdoing on my behalf till I found mb.

I really feel for you how frustrating it must be to not be beleived. You have taught me a valuable lesson on dealing with my own h.

Deb.

YR, yes, us "Karen's" stick together. It must have been an ESP thing on my part, and that's why I started following your story! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Wow! Your M has a LOT of healing to go through. I would bet that both you and your H are just so overwhelmed at all of the issues that need to be addressed overall... that you're having trouble dealing with the smaller issues - like the details of the actual A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (yes, in the long run, these issues are so minor. Remember... the A is NOT the cause of your M problems... it is a SYMPTOM of them).

Has your H been willing to fill out the EN questionnaires? That would help the 2 of you tremendously... especially if the effort was reciprocated, and he started to fulfil your EN's too. In time... ideally, in time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Heartsore -

LOL...you are not nosy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Yes, H had been suspicious for a while...he installed the monitoring software that captured the early part of my A while I was at work one day...I never changed locks on my house after he left.

He also had later 'evidence' when he snooped through my stuff and found some diskettes (I meant to clarify this in my earlier post and got interrupted by kids) where I had saved poems, emails, etc. from OM and some online friends...this is where he got some of his later information. I had saved some of this stuff to get it off of my computer...and I was not emotionally at a place yet where I felt ok with deleting/destroying it. Saving this info was a BAD BAD BAD idea.

I really hoped the whole 'size' thing would make him feel better too..but so far..he figures I am potentially lying about this also.

Yeah..that nasty word...'time' keeps rearing its head, hehe...

You are correct that I am still in the early days...I can't even believe that I did it..the A, I mean...

I never thought about the BS being in a fog themselves...I am sure it has to be one of the most shocking things to discover..

That is the quandry I'm in...the M has been awful for so very long...with the verbal/emotional abuse present way before my A...that I am also having an issue with 'trust'..and betrayal. You are right..it does not justify A...for my own mental/moral peace of mind..I should never have allowed it to happen.

No, he does not really accept his part...he will start to talk about it..but we end up with me being told..but I never cheated on you..as if no matter what he did...it is now 'rectified and ok' because of my A...this is not a contest! I struggle to not talk about his part...because right now..he can't hear me..and I'm probably not the right person to point it out to him.

Yes, incredibly frustrating to not be believed...I am not the root cause of all evil..nor the perpetuator of all lies..but..on the other hand..I have no credibility...I am furious with myself more than anyone..

I am glad that this post/thread may be of some help to you with your H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Regards,

YR

Topie25:

Hehe...yep, all 'Karen's' must stick together..it is an unwritten rule...(or I guess...it is NOW a written rule..ok, I must be getting sleepy..lol..I'm getting slap-happy). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You are right...we have SOOO MUCH healing to go through! We are one messed up pair! I am in agreement with your statement that the 'A' is a symptom of a bigger problem...just like 'alcohol' is a symptom of a bigger disease/issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I printed out the EN questionnaire and asked my H if he would consider filling them out 2 weeks ago. So far, he hasn't done this. I asked him about this today..because he was talking about his needs..and how I'm not meeting them....I told him that was exactly why I was giving him the forms..so that I could do a better job of meeting what his needs are..not what I think his needs are. In absence of this, I have tried to stay in touch with him often (I need to improve on this)..I initiate some of the ILY's....I have made sure he has home cooked meals almost every night (something he said a long time ago that he missed...)...I have done extra errands for him so that he would not have to when he was tired...(I stopped doing this a long time ago..when our marriage started to sour...so I decided to do nice things for him again...even when I didn't feel like it..especially when I didn't feel like it)...and I have tried to show interest in things I know are important to him. I know this is not the 'answer' and that I need him to fill out the forms..but in the absence of anything, I wanted to make the effort. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I am trying to Plan A..and I think I'm not doing it right. I went back and reread SAA..and am still a lil unclear on this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Any thoughts/advise on this...would be greatly appreciated!!

Hugs,

YR/Karen

YR,

I just have one question: Why are you still married to this guy??

Seriously, I think it would be a credible question to ask him. Why should you stay married to him? For the financial support? For the loving way he talks to you and treats you? For all of the domestic support? Just why?

It seems to me that your main failing was not divorcing him before you had the affair. That is really where you messed up followed by compounding it with the affair.

Now the reason I suggest you ask him these questions is really quite simple. He has a legitimate grievance about the A, but he is expecting you to stay and take his abuse and the question is Why? Why would you continue to love a man that doesn't help or support you?

My point is that there really isn't any reason to continue this marriage unless both of you change your perspective and behavior. 9 years with no intimacy for no reason other than you were on the couch doesn't make much sense to me. It suggests that you had no feelings for him which I am sure was hard for him to deal with and it means he wasn't doing any better.

You may want him to feel better and not hurt, but at some point he has to change as well. That is why I mentioned the rather "plain spoken" approach earlier and I think it is warrented even more. You hurt him deeply, but he has to let you in, for you to make amends. IF he doesn't do that then it is clear he doesn't want amends. But, even if amends are made, things must change for you two to have a viable marriage.

Must go home now, sorry for the core dump. Your situation bothers me from both sides. So I'll stop now and behave. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YellowRose:
<strong>I am trying to Plan A..and I think I'm not doing it right. I went back and reread SAA..and am still a lil unclear on this. Any thoughts/advise on this...would be greatly appreciated!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm the one who's confused now when someone says they don't understand plan A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Plan A is all about YOU. Basically, it keeps you in check (so to speak) of EVERYTHING you say and do. When you are in plan A, you become the very best YOU you can be. You avoid LBing as much as you can (although sometimes it's unavoidable - especially if your H hasn't filled out the Love Buster questionnaire for you... and vice versa! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Plan A is NOT a quick fix to anything. It is a lifelong way to live. When executed properly, it will take time, patience, and show consistency, which in turn, creates that 'safe environment' for your M.

When you are plan Aing your H, you are doing your best to fulfil his EN's... but NOT at the cost of draining your love bank way down rapidly. Ideally, your H will "get it", and reciprocate your good ACTIONS with those that fulfil your EN's.

Have I confused you more? Or do you have a slightly better grasp of plan A now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I should let you know that it took me about 2 or 3 months before I totally got the concept of plan A too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> You're right... there isn't enough of an explaination as to what it really is anywhere on MB (or in SAA).

Karen

Hello YR

Oh dear, oh dear!!! Sorry, but I agree with that wise sage JL - why an earth are you still married to this man?

The quote about the dinner thing, just absolutely rattled my cage - who an earth does he think he is? I can understand fully how this would stick with you and cause you to shut down completely from your H. However, your decision now is to try and work at your M, but you can only do that with your H.

I think I read on this site somewhere before (possibly JL), about needing to know everything, but not needing to know detail. It sounds if you have shared absolutely everyting. I still will not share some detail with H, because I DO NOT WANT TO HURT HIM ANYMORE. Thankfully, last night, it was one of the things that he agreed, some things he doesn't need to know.

One of the things I have learnt from this site is that you cannot change your H - only he can do that, as only you can change yourself. He has to be willing to believe you. Frankly, it seems rather stupid to me that you have shared intimate info about size (te he!!!), but he doesn't believe when the A started (although he has evidence of that) and perhaps other less important detail - it doesn't add up, and I'm not sure why. It's almost like he wants to keep hurting himself and because of this, he can justify his own poor behaviour and not take responsibility for it - do you think this is possible?

I am so sorry for you YR, I feel like we have things in common - I wish your situation could be changing like mine (see my thread). But as I said to you before, there has to be a point where this stops. You cannot be worn down into the ground like this on a continued basis. It will not help you or your children.

Be strong, take care and chin up - get on that bike, out for tennis, and go easy on the pretzels!

Lisa

P.S. One more thing, why do you want to work on your marriage now, if it had been so bad for such a long time before? Just interested....

JL and Lisa in London -

Wow..how do I reply to your question of why I am staying in this M...?

I will just type the thoughts that come to my mind first....

He is a good Dad...although I have a friend who always replies back to me "part of being a good Dad is being a good husband first..."...

Last year..while we were separated...I spent many a night sitting on the floor of youngest daughter's room (she was 9 at the time) holding her in my arms...while she sobbed and threw her arms around my neck and begged me "Mommy, please don't divorce Daddy...he loves you...he tells us he loves you...give him another chance.." I can't tell you how much this ripped me apart...

Yeah, I know you can't have an M just for the sake of the kids...but...this is a huge factor on why we aren't already divorced..

OK - on the topic of my H being a good Dad...the kids love him...he does fun stuff with them...he was not around much in the previous 5 or 6 years because he was going from job to job..and ended up getting stuff that scheduled him on nights and weekends...until he was between jobs again. Basically though..when he was around..he was the 'good guy'...he would disagree with me on this..he would tell you he was the disciplinarian and the reasons our kids have problems is because I've messed up. Yes, due to exhaustion and being an almost 'single mother' (when he worked nights/weekends)..I would give in sometimes..but I have worked very hard on this area. I have attended classes on 'Love and Logic', 'Growing Kids God's Way' etc. in an effort to improve my parenting skills..

Now to the hard part of why I explained the paragraph above...I have always been viewed by our kids as the 'strong' one and their dad as the 'weaker' one...they were very upset that I asked their Dad to leave...and yes, I did shelter them in the early years from knowing the full extent of their Dad's irresponsible behavior..and then later..bitterness set in..and I was not always very kind about how I felt when he continued to lose jobs, etc. This was wrong..well, I asked him to leave...kids were devastated...he told kids "Mom is making me do this...I don't want to leave....all I want to do is make her happy but she won't let me...etc. etc."...so I was the 'bad guy'. After I got involved with the OM....I was really frustrated with kids..because they were playing us against each other...and H's family (they have lots of money) was wooing my kids...promising my teen a car when she turned 16, etc. - kids announced when we talked about custody...that they may choose to live with their father...I was completely blown away!

To me...this meant my kids thought I was a bad Mom! It is still very rare..in this day and age...that kid's end up with the Dad except in abusive situations...or Mom doesn't want them. My friends and family were horrified...I have sacrificed almost every hope and dream I had to keep a roof over their heads..I took them to doctor, dentist, Girl Scouts, choir trips, church...I have cooked, cleaned....played..and loved...I never in my wildest imagination dreamed they would choose to live with him. My in-laws encouraged them..and said their Dad 'needed them'...one of my best friends though...said that often a kid will side with the weaker parent..I was even told by my youngest that Dad 'needed them more because he was hurting'...ok, so now you know one of my darkest secrets...I obviously wasn't a good enough mother...because no matter what anyone says...I can't easily accept the fact that they might have chosen him.

After this time, the kids went back and forth...and in the end..they said "we don't want to choose, this is not fair..we didn't for this.."
They are correct..it is not fair..they didn't ask for it..and neither did I...so, I wanted to spare them having to make that decision...I wanted to spare myself the potential of losing them. HOWEVER, I had reconciled myself to the thought that I may be the non-custodial parent..and had gotten to a place of painful acceptance about this..I would not have attempted reconciliation on this point alone...even though being very tempting to do.

My H kept threatening to take the kids, the house (that I have primarily paid for) and said his lawyer (his folks financed his lawyer..remember, they have $$$$) felt he could get at least $2000.00 per month from me. Folks, this is going to sound petty..but there is NO WAY in HELL that I am going to let my H take my kids from me, the house..and give him $2000.00 per month. He only makes $600.00 per month now at 42 with a bachelor's degree. I have financed him almost all of his adult life..I cannot..I will not do it when we aren't married. Heck, not exactly true...I would GIVE him the money and the house...if I could keep the kids.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Also, he informed kids about my A..even gave them some details (some very intimate details!!!)..told them how often I had lied...and how badly I had hurt him..and once again..how "all I've ever wanted to do was make your Mom happy"...so..they look at me in a whole new light now. Yep, I committed the A so I have only myself to blame...but I'm sure kids have lost tons of respect for me..and I don't blame them. I have lost respect for myself. I grieve that my H had to share so much with them...I didn't run around telling them about his years of internet porn stuff...oh well, both my H and myself are doing a great job at messing up their childhood.

All in all, the MAIN things that are keeping my in this M right now are this...I found out a couple of years ago..how my H was truly raised (from mother-in-law's sister). When my H was born..and wasn't a girl..my MIL said she could barely bring herself to hold him...because he wasn't her 'precious daughter' that she longed for. This behavior continued..my H was an annoyance to her...she already had 2 boys..by the time she had her 'daughter' a few years after H was born..he was largely ignored. H's Dad worked all the time...he was/is a workaholic..which left H at mercy of Mom...many times when he was growing up..they would forget his birthday. How in the world do you keep forgetting your own child's b-day?? When I found this out, I made sure to make a big deal over H's b-day from then on out. H's Dad rarely spent time with him..would promise to take him fishing..H would be so excited and would sit on porch waiting for Dad...and Dad wouldn't show up..because he was working...and then was 'too tired'. These are not isolated incidents...they were daily/weekly/monthly occurrences throughout his life in their house. That breaks my heart!

H has many talents..which were discouraged by FIL..because they would not 'pay the bills'...I really think H decided somewhere along the way..when I have kids..I'm not going to work so hard..I will never apply myself to a job...I am gonna play with my kids..but he has taken it to an extreme!! His Dad has always tried to make up for his mistakes in 'not being around' by throwing money at H...telling him when unemployed..just spend time with your family..I will foot the bills...this has seriously undermined any ambition!! I have no respect for H when he takes Daddy's money. And when Daddy isn't around..H has me to provide, I guess.

I'm not saying this well...but I was hoping..that if one person....(me) could manage to show my H unconditional love..and try to reinforce..or encourage some self esteem...I wonder what he could be. I read biblically that I am supposed to do this. I want to 'lift him up'..as much as I can. I realize I can't 'give' H something he doesn't have like ambition, self-respect, self-esteem, etc...but I wanted to try and give him an environment where he felt safe..to see if he could develop some...I was not very kind when he started losing jobs...I had been raised that you do whatever you need to do to provide for your family..pump gas, flip burgers, etc....my H has disdain for all that because "he has a degree", etc. Well, I never held back on how I felt about this attitude. After many years of heartache...I resorted to a bitter, vicious attitude...I made no secret from him that I thought very little of him...I wanted a chance to not place all the responsibility for my happiness on him..I wanted to be the one person in H's life who believes in him..and shows that...and I wanted to see what he could be..for himself..not for me...I will try to do this even if we do divorce..as he still sometimes threatens me.

It is so very difficult to turn the other cheek...although..in a weird way..maybe my A had one good side...it takes me off my "I haven't done anything wrong high-horse"...it makes me need to focus on me...when I'm unhappy and miserable..I am not fun to live with!! All those hours working over the years..have not made me a pleasant companion. I need to do everything I can...prior to a D if that is where we end up...to salvage our M the 'right way'...

Does any of this make sense? I am really trying to do the 'right thing'...and I became a christian during my A...my H has always been a christian...I was hoping that God...and the bible might be some healing factors for us. I guess I also have no viable 'biblical reason' to divorce...but as H points out...he does now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I pray I'm on the right path...I want to discover if he truly loves me..or not..and if I CAN love him. We can only 'win' this way...not much to lose at this point...? Am I nuts? Am I wrong?

JL - if I asked him why I should stay married to him..he would rip me apart emotionally...right now all focus is on my A..and he seems to think I should consider myself fortunate he has stayed..I'm afraid this would be a major LB...and I'm not emotionally up to another brawl. (Hey, JL...I think you are an undercover member of the Harley family...you have a way of cutting through to the 'heart of things' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Core dump? Sheesh, don't say that..my mind reverts to Unix and my Oracle database.

Topie25 - yes, your explanation helped on the Plan A thing...I really need those forms filled out!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Definitely NOT a quick fix!!

Gonna run and check something on my server..will be back in a few minutes...

Hugs,

YR

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: YellowRose ]</small>

Yellowrose,
Wow, what a situation to be in my friend. I think your husband needs counseling asap. Sounds to me like your A is just giving him justification to continue to treat you badly. I hope that didn't sound too harsh but come on, he needs to accept his responsibility. All of us BS's have accepted our responsibilities in our WS's affairs and sounds to me like he did more than his share of contributing things that made your marriage vulnerable. I think you should be commended for working so diligently to piece your marriage back together but I highly recommend both of you get into serious counseling, preferably with the Harley's.
I am not doubting your abilities in any way, I think you need professionals to help you deal with your H. He sounds irrational and it is unfair that none of your effort is being rewarded. Don't lose sight of the fact that while you might have had the affair it takes 2 to make or break a marriage not one, not just you.
Hugs to rosie!!!!!
Layli

Layli,

You didn't sound too harsh...I appreciate knowing that wishing..hoping he would treat me better..and yes, expecting it..is not unfair of me. I feel so incredibly guilty over the A...I don't even know what I feel that I 'deserve' or have a right to anymore.

I get really depressed sometimes..because I see all the incredible BS's on here...who have been truly 'run through the mill'...and many who I feel probably treated their spouses pretty well prior to the A...and yet, they are going through incredible motions to keep their M together...and are desperate for some sign of love or commitment from their WS's..and I wanna bop my H over the head... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

A local big church up here was doing a HNHN course..based on Harley's book...it is part of their Marriage Reconciliation Center...and I asked him if we could go...he didn't want to...I told him I may go without him. We are seeing our pastor off and on...but I don't feel it's helping. We did finally see a marriage counselor while we were separated...2 of them in fact...and neither of them were any good. This really turned H off. I have thought about Steve Harley..but I really can't afford that right now.

I will keep working on it though...

Thanks for the hug, Layli-girl!

Hugs back at ya!

YellowRose

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: YellowRose ]</small>

YR,

I have many thoughts about your post talking about why you are still married to him. I don't have a lot of time right now to sort them all out.

I will say, that you write eloquently.

I will say, that you very likely see things far clearer than you think.

I will say that while you admit to not being the Wife of the Year, you have been a better W than you realize.

I will say that your H has problems that go far beyond you or the marriage and there is nothing you can do to solve those problems. It would seem to me that the best you two could do is come to appreciate how your views of the world, responsibility, etc differ and decide to mediate the differences a bit and appreaciate the differences that remain.

I will say that you are indeed a far stronger woman than you think.

Finally, I am going to say something heretical here, but your A may turn out to save your marriage, IF both of you learn from it. Frankly before your A I would have strongly suggested you divorce.

By the way, I doubt seriously if he could take the children away. But, if they are teenagers they do get to choose where they want to live.

One final comment. I guess I identify with your position because in a very strange way your marriage is one of role reversal. You are playing the traditional "male" role, and your H is playing the traditional "female" role. And yes the kids won't appreciate what you have done for years yet, but you being the "bad guy" will gradually turn to you being the "parent" as they grow older and start their own families. These things do change.

YR, your A was wrong, but your marriage was a mess before, and BOTH of you must come to that realization. If he continues to punish you, he is going to lose much more than he thinks. You on the other hand have a better future than you think.

Hang in there YR.

God Bless,

JL

Admiration is to a man what romance is to a woman. Your H can become more sensitive through indirect admiration much more than he could through direct confrontation. When he does something you appreciate ... small though it may be ... tell him, "You know, when you do this, it really makes me feel loved. Thank you." ...then <*kiss*> on the cheek. And <*warm smile*> ... then walk away humming.

I did an experiment on my H a few years ago. I decided to tease him and flirt with him when he least expected it. I would leave him little messages on his voice mail ... "I just wish you were here RIGHT NOW cuz I have the taste for you in my mouth and it just won't leave me alone." I would brush up against him in public and very lightly touch him in a private area. I would tell him ,"I want to talk to you in private" ... and pull him away from the kids , into our room, shut the door and kiss him fully and say , "You are so great! Thank you for filling my car with gas!" ( or, some other little thing he did) .....

Guess what happened .... he glowed! He walked on air .... he loved the attention .... he looked for ways to get me to act this way again.

Honestly ... it was like taking candy from a baby after awhile. He told me flat out, "When I feel this loved, I cannot wait to come home."

Your results may vary ... LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> it will take time and more time and you may not get results you want for a very long time .... but, this is (To my mind) a Biblical way to love your H.

Admire him ... daily .... in front of the kids. In front of the clerks in the grocery store. In front of his family.

Brag about him .... he doesn't have to be perfect to do this. He is a human being with flaws, with old wounds and scars, with wrong ideas .... and you two have a pattern of relating to each other that is hurtful.

Make a new pattern.

Start today.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ August 31, 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>