Well I think things are changing and changing in a positive way, in fact, forthe first time, I am going to use the smiley icon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

After our poor MC session last week, things had been very quiet with H and I. I felt as if I was walking around in a daze. We were not communicating or interacting in any sort of way, but things were calm. Calm was better than angry and hurt, and I thought that soon we would talk again. H was still refusing to go to MC, but did go to IC.

On Wednesday night, I went out with a friend, and when I came back, I knew H was quiet and reflective, so we started talking. For the first time since D-day, I felt that we were actually talking properly. H had a hard day and I tried to support him. We talked calmly, and then H got angry and upset again, and started LBing big time. Our good conversation turned into a row.

In the morning, H went to go to work and I said "Are you going to kiss me goodbye?" His reply "What's the point etc. etc." Well, for some reason he did, and he picked up SAA as he went out the door - HURRAH!!!!!!

80 pages later and when he came home last night the first thing he did was hug me and kiss me and said "I am so sorry for the way I have treated you. I have been really awful to you, and I apologise for that. I admire you for what you have done giving up contact with OM, and I know how hard this must have been for you. I also accept that I wasn't there for you when you needed me most and I let you down by being away."

Cry? I bawled!!! (I'm crying now as I type). I told him that I still feel he should never have to apologise to me for what I did to him.

Anyway, we went out for dinner, we talked some more (even a bit about OM) and no fights, LBing or anything.

Have we turned a corner? I do hope so, but I know there's still a long way to go. I still miss OM (DOH!!!!!) every day, doesn't seem to get any easier, still not sure if I can truly learn to love H again (mind you, after last night I felt so grateful to be able to talk to him) and still not sure if I need to be by myself. Time will tell......

Lisa

Good stuff Lisa, I'm really happy for you.
Keep in mind however that it wont be all just the happy moments you had - expect ups as well as downs.
But the most imporatnt basis here is that YOU have decided to do the right thing and are willing to work it out, despite cravings for OM, and HE is willing to listen and understand you. That's a very strong basis.

Good luck,
N

Wow,
That is great, and sounds like wonderful progress!
I admire you for choosing to do the right thing!
Great sign that your H is reading!
KK

Thank you both for your support.

Sometimes, the support that BS give me on this site and other WSs here really moves me, especially when I know what a hard time they are having (Nick, I know things are soooo tough for you at the mo). I really appreciate the kind words from both of you.

I know that we must both be careful, and I know it is still early days, but did SAA have an impact on H or what?!?!?!?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So much so, that not only have I used smiley face, now am using big grin face!!!!!

I sometimes worry about how committed I feel to our M at this current time. I know that I don't want to hurt H anymore, but I do find it hard being with him back in the house together. That would have been difficult anyway without the impact of the A. I suppose I have become so indepedent it is hard to try to compromise and bring him back into my life with a bang.

Anyway, I am going away this weekend - H unfortunately cannot come with me, and I hope this does not make things difficult. I will make sure I stay in touch with him as much as I can...

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

Yes, this sounds like great news!!! Once I accepted my share of the responsibility for the condition of our M we were able to start rebuilding.

Like your H that is learning to trust you again, YOU are going to have to learn to trust your H... Forget about the OM and focus on rebuilding your M with your H!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Don't worry about your FEELINGS of committment... just do it. If you THINK you are committed and ACT like you're committed, then you will soon start FEELING like you're committed...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Hi Lisa,

It is good to hear your update. As Nick said there will be times when things will crash down around your shoulders and your H's shoulders. I think that you will gradually find OM easing out of your mind as your H starts to heal.

It is the Time and Patience factor that must be applied. You are right it is hard to readjust to having him home, but don't forget it is hard for him to readjust to being home and being the outsider (not only because of the affair, but because you have tailored your world to yourself and he will have a hard time finding a place in it).

I am glad that he read SAA. It is an eye opening book. Perhaps when he is finished you might take another glance at it as well. You will be surprised what you see in it now that you have been posting here.

Have a good weekend.

God Bless,

JL

Lisa in London -

I was so happy happy happy to read your post...see my happy face ----> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sounds like some progress definitely...I was cracking up towards the end of your post..because when I read the part "he picked up SAA as he went out the door"...I went "UH OH!"....you remember what happened when my H picked up HNHN...lol..

I finally let out the breath I was holding when I got to your next paragraph. Phew...! I got to the part where you said you were crying..and I was crying for you also...happy..relieved..

I think you know I understand totally about the OM...I can't wait for the day when I not only 'don't think about him at all' ...but in the rare times that I do...I don't feel anything...

I also identify with this statement:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> still not sure if I can truly learn to love H again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am beginning to wonder the same.

Keep that flicker of hope going inside you...even when a downpour is threatening.

Ooh! JL had to go and mention that nasty word again..."time"....ick... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, just wanted you to know I was happy to see/hear your news! I'm there for you if you ever need me...ok?

Big Giant Texas Hugs!!

YR/Karen

Lisa <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I am so happy for you. It sounds like a major moment. Just remember the story of Sue in SAA. She felt the same feelings you were, if you guys continue to make positive strides in your recovery you may come to love your husband more than you did at the beginning. You will have a better marriage than before and your husband will have the proper tools to meet you needs better than anyone else on the planet. Don't give up. I am so pleased he is reacting like this.
Hope you have a nice weekend.
Love,
Layli

Thank you all for your words and support.

Unfortunately, we have had another down-turn.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I had booked to go for a cycling weekend weeks and weeks ago. I wanted H to come with me and my friends (who he has now met), but he couldn't come. Because of the poor week we had, I just wanted to get away, but then when we had the upturn on Thursday, I asked H if he wanted me to stay. He said no, he was fine about me going.

I know I was silly, but I had made plans to travel in my car with a friend, and thought that H was truly OK about me going. H has said already that he does not have a trust issue - he knows that I am not in contact with OM. Unfortunatley I met OM doing a charity cylce ride, so the connection with cycling upsets him - understandably so. I wish I had just said I wouldn't go and let the other people down but not H. I suppose this is where I've come to over the last 2 years - not putting H first because he hasn't been here and I've only had to worry about me.

Anyway, H and I were talking and texting when we could, and everything was fine until I got back last night. H had found an old bank statement of mine when he was tidying up and it showed a large withdrawal when I was in a town where I used to meet OM (I can't imagine why I took that much money out, but it certainly wasn't to spend on OM). This upset him greatly, plus he was reading in SAA about spending time together. OK, I know I probably should have just stayed, but I'm so unused to this and how to deal with everyting. H knows I don't like to let friends down, but of course I have let him down. He was so adamant though that he didn't mind me going and he actively encouraged me to do it.

So of course there was some major LBing, loads of swearing etc. etc. and I think "Well, might as well leave again, this is why I went in the first place". I tried apologising and trying to make amends, but no go. He's talking about moving out again.....

I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but this is crazy.

What do I do now? I have no energy and just don't know if I can be bothered anymore. H thinks I don't want to be married anyway. I've tried to be honest without being hurtful, by saying, I'm not sure if I can be married or not. Is it easier to split up? H's hurting too much and even though I try to comfort and support him, it's just not working for either of us. No sleep again last night, tired tired of life and everything.

Didn't help I saw a friend at the weekend asking me if I'd seen OM recently and how was he (doesn't know about the A, just knew we were friends).

So sad again, so unsure....
Lisa

Lisa ~ ask your husband if he would like to read some articles on the site? If he does, let him read about POJA and Radical Honesty.

While yes, you are at fault for causing your husband to have triggers by having the affair, you can NOT be expected to read his mind. He should have been honest with you about his feelings. If your going on the trip upset him, he should not have said it was OK with him. Because he did not give you accurate information, your own actions were LBs.

Thats why Honesty is so incredibly important. If you are dishonest, you deny your spouse important information that he/she needs to be able to adjust actions and behaviors to meet needs.

Thanks BR - he is reading SAA so hopefully he will get to this. He feels that because I met OM cycling (he is not part of my regular group of friends, we are all London based and cycle together), I should have been more intuitive, and also, I should have wanted to spend the time with him, rather than going off by myself. He knows that I do not see OM cycling - I never used to in the first place.

I have asked him time and again, if he wants me to give up my cycling. This has become important to me when H was away - I really enjoy the activity and the keeping fit, and to give it up would really upset me. But he says time and again that he does not want me to do this and he was OK with me going. I think finding the bank statement set him off.

But I do feel that I can't mind read, and if he says it is OK for me to do something that is what he means. H has always been rather like this - I used to ask him what was wrong, he'd say nothing, and then when it all finally came out he'd say things like "Well, you should have know I was upset" and I'd say "I asked you, and you said you were fine, so why shouldn't I believe that?"

He also felt upset as he had cleaned the house and made dinner, and because I said "Oh the house looks nice and tidy" that wasn't enough. He kept going on that I wasn't appreciative, but what else was I meant to do - get down on my hands and knees and kiss his feet? I did not ask him to clean or cook - he choose to do it and I thanked him. Sometimes, I don't know what to do anymore.

He wants to give up, I want to give up. Wouldn't we be happier by ourselves?

Lisa

Hi Lisa,
No, dont give up. Sorry to hear about your downer - but as said: dont worry, as long as the overall direction is up, up, up, which seems to be the case overall.
With regard to the cycling thing - yes, I can perfectly understand your husband. I wrote in my thread about a similar issue where my WW and her OM would read a book together. WW is still reading it, but I associate it so strongly with her being with OM that it just p***es me off big time, whether justified or not.
Why dont you change to some fitness activity (like, rollerblading or running, both fairly close to cycling) which you take up with your husband?
Best,
Nick

Nick

Not so sure anymore if it is up, up, up general direction....

I have always been pretty active, but gave up exercise etc. during my 20s. I only really found it again in my 30s and the cycling is the thing that has really pushed me. I want H to become invovled too, but he used to play a really hard team game, and since he gave that up, he has little or not interest in hard physical activity. He likes to swim occassionally (I can't), hates running, and would not consider anything new.

For me it is not just about activity, it is about controlling my weight - excessive personality situation again!!! H will involve in something for a fairly short time and then give up. Although I have not done the ENQ yet, I reckon recreational companionship would come pretty high. So do I give it all up, get fat and miserable and resent my H?

What do you think?

Sorry about your weekend - will post later, just having broadband installed!

Lisa

Lisa ~ your husband's cleaning the house, and subsequent complaint about your appreciation is important information.

I have a similar problem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . If you can, get a copy of Gary Chapman's "The Five Love Languages". It's the MB concepts, only explained differently. I find using the 2 approaches actually rounds out the whole marital love concept. Anyway, Chapman says that human beings experience love in 5 basic ways, and that everyone has a primary "love language" that they understand to mean love.

I'm going to guess, from what you said, that your husband's love language is "Acts of Service". He is showing you love by cleaning the house. You didn't respond the way he expected to his loving gesture, so he felt rejected and hurt.

Now the whole point of both MB and the Love Languages is to stop doing for your spouse what YOU want, and to start doing what he/she wants. So you and your husband need to learn each other's Love Language (ie important ENs) and do THAT. You didn't recognize your husband's gestures as love, because that's not your love language.

My husband does the same thing. When he wants me to know how much he loves me, he cleans the house. It makes me a bit nuts - I want him to hold me and tell me sweet romantic nothings (because my love language is physical affection) but what is natural to him is Acts of Service. So we both have to really think and work at remembering how to love the other. I have to be better at domestic support stuff, and he has to be better with hugs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> We are both getting there.

So anyway, there's some food for thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BR - this is very interesting. I never ask my H to clean the house, but he always has a big thing about "doing" things for me around the home, then when I don't respond as he wants me to, I'm not appreciating him. I have looked after this house for 2 years pretty much without him - cleaned, repaired, etc.etc. My H has always been a tidy freak, so much so, it used to irritate me witless when he would walk into the house and the first thing he would do would be re-arrange the curtains and straighten the rug - to me it is just not important!!!!!

I think with H too, it is about where he has come from, he has to be tidy not just in the house but in his appearance - he is always immaculately turned out. It ties in with his early years and I see what you are saying - to him, keeping things tidy, preparing a meal is his way of showing love.

Anyway, BR, do you think I should give up my activity bearing in mind what I said early about my physical and mental well-being? I don't want to "rub his nose in it" anymore, but I DO NOT see OM through cycling.

I telephoned H earlier, and he is a little calmer now. We are going to go out for a while when he gets home from work. I find it so hard to keep going with all this up and down (but mainly down). I was sooo pleased on Thursday and now I want to run again.

I knew it wasn't going to be easy.....
Lisa

Hi Lisa! I was so happy to read your post and then bummed to hear it turned sour so quickly. H and I didn't have much success in that awkward stage you're at now because I kept giving up and running every time things took a turn for the worse. Trust me, TRUST ME, stick it out...you'll be glad you did.

I know it seems simpler just to give it all up and start over...but it's not. The hard work and painful obstacles you overcome together just strengthen you, both as a couple and as individuals. Tutter (now posts as Princess) went through much of the same you're going through now. It was a long road! There's no simple way to fix the damage done...it will take time, patience and COMMITMENT!! And no matter what, that work never ends. Even once the A is in the past, the marriage is ever changing, ever needing.

The day WILL COME when the OM is out of your daily thoughts. It took a long time for me...and it wasn't that I was fawning over his memory or even missing him...just thoughts seemed to be there every single day in one way or another. Day by day those thoughts lessoned until they finally vanished alltogether. My life finally went back to "normal". Yours will too...it will just be a long road there.

BR's suggestion of that book is a good one. It sounds a lot like you two are speaking different love languages and confused as to why the other doesn't seem to "get it". H and I both read that book and found it to be a quick, easy read and easy to impliment.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I have been there and understand how you feel. Just hang in there...it isn't a permanent condition!!!

Lisa,

I find it interesting that you don't see that you do the same thing to your H as he does.

Let me ask you. In the end, did you agree that your H taking a job that would take him away from home for two years was a good thing to do? I'll bet you did. Yet, you have resented it every since. Every time you mention something it is followed with sort of a "Yes, but... I did this for myself for two years" sort of statement. He cleans the house and you don't really appreciate it. He does other things and you don't appreciate it.

Let me ask you something. Your H couldn't or didn't want to go on this cycling trip. Yet he encouraged you to go, knowing that you met OM on such a trip, Why? Not because after only a few weeks he wanted to be alone, or wanted you to run into OM or someone else, simply because he knew you wanted to.

Now stop and think do you think he would have preferred this weekend, not to be alone I can assure you of that.

So did you show you gratitude for this sacrifice? Or for the fact that while you were gone he did something for you although you have betrayed him and clearly don't desire him and apparently the marriage?

Lisa, you are dealing with a very very hurt human being who apparently is trying not to burden you with the depths of his pain or to restrict what makes you happy, yet you act like if he doesn't come around in the next few weeks you are out of here.

Lisa, I will be stern with you. You have come close to destroying one marriage. The children in your marriage apparently feel/felt very deeply for you. You may yet have HELPED destroy another marriage and clearly a family where children are involved. Yet, all you talk about is perhaps I should just quit, perhaps I should just leave, perhaps this is TOO HARD.

Lisa, get a grip on reality. There are other people hurt and they are hurt at least as bad as you, and still they are trying. One of those people is your H.

Now one last thing to consider. Harley points out that sacrifices that are not enhusicatically agreed to (POJA) shouldn't be made. It lead to resentment. My bet your H taking that job falls in that category. To a lesser extent your cycling trip may have.

One thing you and your H need to really discuss is "radical honesty". That means your feelings about anything and everything, and his feelings about anything and everything. I think you can see that if he had been "radically honest", you might not have gone on that trip. This doesn't mean that you quit cyclying, it means that it may need to be put aside for a time, while you two rediscover each other.

I truely hope something I have said makes sense.

God Bless,

JL

Hope & JL thanks.

Hope, what stopped you from running in those early days? Was it your child, or was it something else. Did you really, really want to re-build your marriage?

JL - well, you say so much which is true, I don't really know where to start. When H went away, I honestly didn't mind. H has only encouraged me to do what I want both professionally and personally. This has invovled some long/hard/ and very demanding study over 3 years, plus my decision to become self-employed. I truly felt that it was not my place or decision to deny him to go to Germany if he wanted to go, and at the time I was happy. It was perhaps only from the end of last year (Nov/Dec time) that I started to feel resentful, which was coupled with not much work, fundraising and training for the cycle trip and a very depressing January 2002.

When I came home at the weekend, I wanted to say thanks, but immediately I knew he was cross, and I just close down into my self preservation mode. I try not to under-estimate how hurt he is, and believe me, I listen everytime he says anything, everytime he crys, everytime he bad-mouths me, swears, shouts is gratuitous etc. But do you know what? I'm beginning to feel less guilty, and all this does is run me down and makes me think that the A was only a symptom of other things that were wrong for me. Selfish? Absolutely. Should I have told him I was unhappy before the A - absolutely. Again, I am not, nor will I ever, justify the A.

"So did you show you gratitude for this sacrifice? Or for the fact that while you were gone he did something for you although you have betrayed him and clearly don't desire him and apparently the marriage?"

JL this is my whole trouble, and the thing I said from the very beginning. I do not know if I want the marriage or not. This troubles me greatly - of course it does. I don't want to throw in the towel after 12 years, but equally I struggle with whether or not I want to stay married. I was struggling with that before the A, and yes you are right, I didn't appreciate the sacrifice he had made. (I am trying to be honest here, even though it probably sounds like I am being a right cow...")

"Lisa, I will be stern with you. You have come close to destroying one marriage. The children in your marriage apparently feel/felt very deeply for you. You may yet have HELPED destroy another marriage and clearly a family where children are involved. Yet, all you talk about is perhaps I should just quit, perhaps I should just leave, perhaps this is TOO HARD."

Lisa, get a grip on reality. There are other people hurt and they are hurt at least as bad as you, and still they are trying. One of those people is your H."

JL, I know everyday I have destroyed my H. I try not to think about OM and his family. Frankly, another of my means of survival is not to think about how his poor BS may or may not be coping. I also do not believe my hurt is as great as my H or probably OM's W. Yeah, OM and I can have our warm fuzzy memories...... JL, I don't know how to try with H. I don't know how to behave around him half the time, because our lives have to me become so distanced.

I knew it would never be easy, but for some reason I asked H to come home. I could have just left it and asked him to move straight out. I don't expect him to get over it in a couple of weeks, but he will make himself ill soon if he doesn't try and do something for himself and stop beating himself up.

I've said enough now, and have to get on today, but as ever appreciate all the comments, thoughts and suggestions.

Lisa

P.S. JL you are not too stern, you just seem to have this knack of getting under the skin and right to the point of the matter.

Just an idea.. what about joining a gym? I'm with Cannons, my wife sometimes joins me (only for swimming) and I take my daughter regularly (also for swimming). Many couples go, and its good fun. In winter it's too cold for cycling anyway.

Another question - do you talk about having kids? I know it may not be the ideal moment now, but with couples in their thirties (I believe you are) that's surely a BIG topic. What's your view, what's your husbands? Does/did it change over time?

Nick

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>Should give up my activity bearing in mind what I said early about my physical and mental well-being? I don't want to "rub his nose in it" anymore, but I DO NOT see OM through cycling.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, sounds like it is a trigger for him. Perhaps you could ask him how you both might avoid the trigger. i.e. how do you negotiate thru this one? Ben.