Just got off the phone with a friend of mine who had news about her brother. Two years ago, he left his wife and child to live with another woman. His wife had become suspicious of his attitude changes, similar to a lot that have been described here. He was argumentative, nasty with her, and basically dissatisfied with the marriage. The brother and the OW were planning a wedding next spring, and things seemed to be going very well for them. He had just bought her a large engagement ring, and a new car, two months ago. Well, she came home from work unexpectedly last night, and caught him in their bed with another woman. Other than him being away from home more often, he had not displayed any of the "signs" of his first affair. So, my question is this? Do you think most of the betrayers really try and make a go of their marriage after being caught in an affair, or do they just get smarter the second time around? Is the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater" true? Would be interested in your comments and experiences.<P>Success Story (why me)

Hey there Why Me,<P>I read your post the other day about your sister, it helped somewhat, but now doesnt matter. My ex informed me that no matter if our problems are resolved or not, he will never marry me again, nor anyone else. I dont believe in shacking up anymore and will not do it. So I am in pain here.<P>As to once a cheat always a cheat, my personal feeling is yes. I did betray my ex after he did me (his 2nd time), but our divorce was in progress. I have never cheated on anyone or betrayed any other before. So I will not be a repeat offender, but cannot answer for the men who do this while in a committed relationship or married.<P>Sorry

Hi Why Me -<P>I think it comes down to if they have addessed any of the problems that led to the cheating the first time around. There were reasons why they acted in that fashion. Whatever forces were at work - whether external or internal, have to be recognized and remedied.<P>If nothing concrete was done to learn why they behaved that way the first time then they did not learn anything new about how to handle themselves in the future. They have not grown!!<P>Hope this helps.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 12, 1999).]

My H is a repeat offender, so I have grown to believe the "once a cheat, always..." about HIM, but not in general.<P>I discovered an affair about 5 years ago. After that one ended, he confessed that he had one about 2-3 years into our marriage. I did a lot of work to save the marriage...he just wanted to sweep it under the rug. Chalk it up as a mistake and move on. <P>Although it was his second affair, it was my first discovery and I experienced much of what is discussed on this forum. However, I did not believe that he would do it again. I don't think he ever fully understood my pain, but when the ramifications touched his job, and he had to act...he was humiliated. I thought that because he felt the pain directly on something that he valued (his work, work image) that he would not venture out again to that extreme.<P>WRONG! He got smarter. 2 years later, he's at it again. Dynamics were a little different because he "protected" work and family more, but cheated just the same. He again wants to sweep it under the rug....<P>But this is just my experience. He is a conflict-avoider and won't deal w/most issues. Makes it difficult to solve them.<P>Do most betrayers really try to make a go of their marriage or do they just get smarter? IMHO, I don't think that most betrayers are looking to have multiple affairs, so the question of getting smarter is not really an issue for them. I do believe that repeat offenders, just by virtue of prior experience, get smarter, should they find themselves in that situation again.<P>What I can say is that if the problems that led up to the affair are NOT resolved, the likelihood of another affair may be greater.

I have often wondered about this myself, if<BR> they will cheat once do they just get better at not getting caught?My parents, my<BR> dad was married when he met my mother,he left his wife and two young children to marry her.I didnt know about this for a long time and its bothered me alot.When I found out,I was really upset at both of them, and even though I love my parents no matter what,<BR> I asked how could they trust each other.My mom told me my dad has never cheated on her<BR> but what makes her different than his first wife? Thats why I feel I cant tell my family what my husband did to me.Thats why I was ready to give up on our marriage when I found out about the affair, I figured it was a lost cause.My older sister also married a man that left his wife for her. He did cheat on her, it was a little hard for me to understand why she was surprised,(bad of me I know)but they worked it out and seem to be doing good these days,although I still dont trust him and cant for the life of me figure out what she ever saw in him.I pray that my husband has learned his lesson, I dont ever want to be put through this again.I believe in what comes around ,goes around or whichever way you say it.<BR>

I think people are not going to like my answer to this one... I am realising slowly that a lot of people out there are very unwilling to see what _may_ be the truth, wanting to instead believe something else because it sits better with them.<P>You might say this is a generalisation... but I think subconsciously these kinds of thoughts go through the heads of everyone including those who cheat.<P>Do people change? Will they always repeat? I am starting to believe that the only thing that makes a person change their behaviour is a serious system shock! We have all heard about neural pathways and how our brains create chemical bonds that get stronger the more we use them. This would suggest the only way to stop going down the same path is to make a stronger chemical bond elsewhere.<P>A really, really BIG SHOCK!<P>To put this in terms of infidelity, a cheater will only change their behaviour if the fallout from their cheating was so serious and so painful "to them" that the thought of doing it again is far worse than what they "thought" were the benefits of doing it in the first place.<P>If they cheated once and got away with it lightly (ie forgiven quickly or a lot of shouting but never the impression the marriage would break up) then they are likely to do it again because they didn't suffer for it... like the little kid who keeps stealing cookies from the cookie jar until he gets caught one day and has his fingers slapped. From the moment of that pain onwards the thought of being slapped outweighs the cookies and so he doesn't do it.<P>Now when someone has an affair and gets caught I am sure some of them think something along the lines of "Mmmm... that was bad, its real hell now... Are these bad things worth what I got out of having one?". If they believe that they can "cope" with the fallout of having another afair found out they will do it again... if they are "scared" to have another affair because they are afraid to lose their partner (Have any of you wondered __WHY__ Plan B actually works!?!?!) then they might stop that bahavior.<P>Then there are those people who are crafty. They will sit down and look at all the things they did wrong the first time, work out if there are ways of getting around those things that caught them out before and then weigh it all up and decide if their "New" approach will stop them from being caught. If they think it will then they are open to temptation.<P>A lot of people will disagree with everything I have said here and probably accuse me of being a generaliser... but I have to ask the question... are not Dr Harley's concepts put for "people in general"????

LostSoul, good points!<P>You just reminded me of something H said the other day, when we were going over the latest fusillage in this marital war of attrition:<P>"If I'd known there was going to be so much pain and it was going to go on for so long, I never would have talked to that girl in the first place! God I regret it!"<P>THAT is when I knew I'd made progress, however painful it was. I don't think he'll be pulling that again

I find posts like cutiepie's especially depressing - stories where the OW/MM married and lived happily ever after, at least ostensibly. My friends, my sister, the lawyer, all say the betrayers hardly ever come back, but the stats I read here and in books don't agree. Of course that is not the same as saying they stay with the OP, but reading stories like the above make me wonder if it is really as low as 5% or less. Why is it that what I hear from "real life" friends is so different from what I read here?

I think you've all made some good points. When the notion of "cheating again" comes up, I become nauseous. I mean for real. I can feel it rising from my stomach. The reason being, I could not fathom going through it again, and I'm not talking about the aftermath, I'm talking about what I now know and understand about affairs in general. For some people, like Lost Soul pointed out, it is the horrific devastation and fallout after the affair or after they are caught. But for me, it's all that I've learned about the dynamics of affairs that bothers me the most. When men approach me now, sometimes I feel like I am being rude almost, because I do resent any man approaching a knowingly married woman (my BIG rings) and attempting to come on to her. That makes me sick, and on more than one occasion I have actually said to the guy, "what?? you wanna sleep with me? what??" Of course, they retreat in utter shock, but oh well. I'm not going to lower myself to be used by anyone anymore. Now that I know how b.s. the whole affair scene is, I don't want any part of it. The lies, the deceit, the sneaking around, it all disgusts me. I deserve so much better than that. I deserve to be loved honorably and openly, not stuffed in discreet hotels.<P>So, like Sheba pointed out, I've learned too much to go there again. I'm still so sad that my outlook was so dismal that I thought that was all I deserved. But, I can't dwell on that, I'm looking onward and upward.<P>Cheat again? Somebody get me a barf bag!<P>p.s. Cristalle, my H said almost the same thing yours did about "if I knew it was gonna cause ...."<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Thanks for all who responded. It surely is a question that none of us can answer unless we have the power to look into the future. As far as the adulterer getting craftier, it probably wouldn't matter, as most of us who have been betrayed have also learned to read more into any behaviour pattern that is not normal for our spouse. So, I guess we would be at a more even level with the adulterer the second time.<P>Bluestar: Sorry to hear that things are not going well for you. I don't like to generalize, but it sounds like a lot of men feel the same as your H does. Years ago, my H and I got into a discussion about how we would deal with the death of each other. H told me that he would NEVER marry again, but would just have a woman for "his needs." He told me that he knows that I would remarry, as I need someone to change the oil in my car. Kind of scary when it is put in the perspective!<P>Sheba: You are right about facing their problems. My friend's brother walked away without even a discussion with his wife, and 2 years later, they still have not resolved any of their problems, and consequently, his visitation with his child is always arranged with a third party.<P>Enlightened: My H is also a conflict avoider, but he is getting better since we have been going to counselling. Maybe it is our age, but a lot of our friends and relatives also complain about their husbands theory that if you leave the room, you also leave the problem behind, and when they come back to that room later, they just assume that all is well.<P>Cutie Pie: I firmly believe that what goes around, comes around. Perfect example of it was my story. Why would the OW assume he would be faithful to hom? I also believe that the truth always has a way of biting you in the [censored]!<P>LostSoul: I do agree with you that a lot of us chose not to believe what we knew in our gut. Am I to take it from your response, that some men are always "on the prowl" for another affair, if they were not "severely reprimanded" when they got caught the first time? It's interesting to get some insight from a man, as opposed to a woman.<P>Cristalle: It makes me wonder whose pain he is referring to. Yours or his?<P>Nellie: I can only say that of all the couples we know whose mate have had an affair, I can't recall one of them that has survived with the OP for too long. <P>New Woman: I hear you about men coming onto women, even if they are wearing a ring. Could it be an ego booster for them? Perhaps a bigger challenge? I was at a wedding on the weekend (H is out of town, so I was in the receiving line without a partner.) The father of the bride was standing beside the mother of the groom in the line. I introduced myself, and told him who I was, and that I had met him briefly at the shower, when he had come to pick up his wife. His response? "If I had met you before, I certainly WOULD have remembered you!" Geez, it was his daughter's wedding day, and he was still trying to pad his ego.

Sorry, the dreaded double post!!<p>[This message has been edited by why me (edited September 13, 1999).]

My H is the perfect example of what Lost Soul describes. Didn't get caught the first time, so no shock "to him". Consequences second time were obviously not "serious" enough to eliminate cheating as an option. As stated earlier, I thought the impact on his work and work image that he valued so much would create enough individual shock to him (a consequence he couldn't blame on me!). Well, as Lost Soul pointed out, he just got craftier. My H obviously is the type that needs the SERIOUS SHOCK.<P>I don't think Lost Soul is off base at all. I believe, however,that the degree of "shock" necessary varies among betrayers.

Enlightened: I agree with you on the degree of the shock. It varies with each individual, according to which image they consider most valuable. For my H, he would/will never admit to his affair, as what he holds most dearly is his "self image." You know the type. Demanding perfection from all others, and people not quite living up to "his standards." He considers himself a very "strong" person, who would never let himself fall into the traps that mortal men have. When I told him about my cousin's son having had an affair, he questioned how he could have been so stupid to put himself in that position to start with. I now wonder if he meant the position of falling into an affair, or the position of getting caught? Funny thing, when H was preaching the morals of marriage to cousin's son, he was involved with his own affair. Go figure!!<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>