Lisa,

I am sorry for getting under your skin. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But, it seems to me that you and H are in the same boat and this boat is pretty normal.

Neither of you are sure you want this marriage right now. That seems to be par for the course in these things. So what to do? Honesty, which as you know is not the same as meanness.

I think you need to tell H of your ambivalence. It may hurt him but he needs to be able to deal with your feelings. He needs to be honest with you, and he is having a hard time of that hence his anger. He hurts, he cannot get it out, he gets angry, and then you hear about it.

I think you absolutely must stop running from your H. I mean mentally here. When he is load don't shut down and run, put your arms across your chest and just stand there until he is finished. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then, ask him if he is willing to let you speak. Then tell him yet again how sorry you are, how angry you are, how hurt you are, and how you really want to see if this marriage can be saved.

You see in my feeble brain, this is all about seeing if the marriage can be saved. I and others here know it can, but you both have to be willing to deal with this and give each other time to evolve your feelings.

At best you are friends right now. Actually, I doubt if either of you would marry each other right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , But the fact is you ARE married, so it is time for honesty, some care about each other.

Ironically, in my mind, care means being honest. Had your H been honest about his feeling, which are I am sure just bouncing all over the place, you might not have gone on the cycling trip. If you had been more honest with him, he might of believed that you would not have gone if he had said no. I don't think he believed you would not have gone, so to save face he agreed you should go.

You two need to face each other and agree to try and not hurt each other, but to be very honest with each other. It has been awhile.

Lisa, your situation is not hopeless by any measure, but you and your H must allow for adjustments to occur. And while you do this you and he must learn different ways of dealing with this.

Hang in there and keep trying, I suspect you will begin to feel something for your H in a few months, and I suspect that if you don't shut down when he is angry, he will stop that as well.

God Bless,

JL

Lisa In London –

Hey Friend, sorry it has taken me so long to reply. You have been so considerate at replying on my thread…I feel bad that it has taken me so long to get back over here to post L Here are a few of my thoughts….

Quote:
Because of the poor week we had, I just wanted to get away, but then when we had the upturn on Thursday, I asked H if he wanted me to stay. He said no, he was fine about me going.

I totally relate to this…when things between me and my H are going badly…my first instinct is to bolt..and when they are going well…that is when I offer more considerate choices such as ‘not going somewhere’ if he is going to be uncomfortable, etc. Notice the contradiction in this? When I feel things are going well and he is treating me right…then, and usually only then do I usually consider forgoing something in order for him to feel/be ok. I am not trying to sound unkind, I just realized when I read your post that I do this often…maybe this is not truly the case with you. Sometimes, I just can’t take the griping, fussing, yelling, and abuse. I’m not saying I should be a doormat…I just wish one time I would have the fortitude to not flee when things are not going well…the strength to display Plan A behavior when it is not ‘deserved’ (yes, I know that Plan A behavior really has nothing to do with ‘deservedness’…hhmm…is that a word? LOL…but it is my human tendency to want to withhold this sometimes).

I can also relate to being told that something is ‘ok’ for me to do…when underneath my H is really not ok with it..and I usually end up hearing about it later. This makes me very FRUSTRATED!! My H has even done same as yours..actively encouraging, etc…and then I get back home from doing whatever…WHAM…BOOM..BLAME..ETC. I think what I finally figured out..is my H is looking for me to offer the sacrifice..even when he is saying it is ok. He wants me to offer this freely….he wants me to want to prefer to be with him above all things..he doesn’t want to have to ask for a place in my life…he wants to be my life. I don’t necessarily agree with how he is going about it..but I am beginning to see a different side to why he does some of the things he does. I don’t think he knows how to voice what he needs…heck, he doesn’t know what he needs! I also have a hard time with ‘pretending’ that he is my life..and ‘feeling’ that I want to put him first above all others after the past few weeks of abuse. I did start out after d-day with trying to show H all of the above. I am waiting for him to fill out the EN questionnaire so that I can see if I have a disconnect between ‘what I thought he needed’…and ‘what he truly needs’. Have you asked your H to fill one out? You should also fill one out.

I hate it when old stuff ‘triggers’ an emotional hurt in my H (like the old bank statements you referred to)…I wonder if it would just be better for each of us to move on if neither of us can get past the A. I am trying desperately to remember what is ‘old news’ to me is sometimes ‘brand new’ to my H and he doesn’t have the same internal comfort level that I have reached about my A and how I am not having any contact with OM. I am not saying that I’m not wracked with guilt and shame…I am!! Boy, how I am…but I know the intent of my heart is not to contact the OM…and to truly work on my M…I hope my posts reflect this..but all H has is my word..which I have broken several times.

Sometimes I think that their desire to trust us is at war with the fear inside themselves..the doubts that have to niggle at the back of their minds..like why we did it..will we do it again..were they not good enough..why did we come back..and..when will we leave them again?…etc…etc. That may be why they try to pretend things are ok when they aren’t..like for us to go somewhere, etc. Maybe he was afraid if he told you how he really felt…you might feel trapped and suffocated and might want to get out of the M just due to restrictions…make any sense? However, part of the backlash effect of this…is they say..yes, go..and then are mad when we go…and then when you add the reminder/recent discovery…they fall back into ‘justified anger’…there is almost nothing more dangerous than ‘justified’ anything..especially anger…

Lisa, have you ever thought about scheduling some counseling with the Harley’s..for either you and/or your H? I think that would help more than many other types of counseling services.

Quote: “What do I do now? I have no energy and just don't know if I can be bothered anymore. H thinks I don't want to be married anyway. I've tried to be honest without being hurtful, by saying, I'm not sure if I can be married or not. Is it easier to split up? H's hurting too much and even though I try to comfort and support him, it's just not working for either of us. No sleep again last night, tired tired of life and everything.”

You know I totally understand this..am in same place myself and am not sure if I am being any help to you at all..but I wanted to try. Do you think you may need the help of some anti-depressants for a few months? I did start on some and it has helped a great deal..yeah, I know…sounds scary considering my posts, right? LOL..you shoulda seen me before the anti-d’s!! Honestly, I think many of the A related things are blurring everything for you right now…I think withdrawal, grief, guilt, shame, and anger over the whole A are feeding into how you are feeling right now..and you may be taking it as a reflection of how you feel about H and your M. Let’s get everything into the proper perspective BEFORE you make a decision, ok? If you are on anti-d’s…call doctor and go for an appt. Perhaps you need a diff one or an increase in dosage. Also, is your H taking anything?

Quote: “Didn't help I saw a friend at the weekend asking me if I'd seen OM recently and how was he (doesn't know about the A, just knew we were friends).”

OK, now this was another trigger for you…bringing up everything I said above..don’t let ucky stuff that belongs in the A area…bleed over into your M area and confuse the livin daylights out of you about how you feel over M…clear as mud? GOOD! Hey, seriously now..how long since D-Day? I think the withdrawal effects are very cyclical…sounds like you are on the withdrawal roller coaster right now.

Regarding BR’s suggestions about the Love Languages book. Both H and I read this…it has helped. I am an ‘Acts of Service Person’..and my H is a ‘Recreational/companionship person…followed immediately by SF….maybe you and I should switch H’s…just kidding <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It is a good book..and I recommend it to all on here. It is not too long either!! Easy to understand…thank goodness!! Get that book, ok?

Is there any exercise activity that H is interested in that you could do together other than cycling for right now? I’m not talking forever, ok?

Quote: “He wants to give up, I want to give up. Wouldn't we be happier by ourselves?”

While this sounds good in principle..statistics prove this out as a lie…if you don’t resolve the problems you had in this relationship with your H…you will carry it all into your next relationship. You owe it to yourself to try everything you can..and in the end if it ends in divorce…you will know you tried everything possible…and will learn some invaluable relationship tools by doing so.

Quote: “But do you know what? I'm beginning to feel less guilty, and all this does is run me down and makes me think that the A was only a symptom of other things that were wrong for me.”

IMHO, A’s are a symptom of a bigger problem within ourselves.

I also struggle with whether I want to be married or not…one of the reasons I am putting up with everything…is so I can take time to decide. If I were sure, I would have been gone a long time ago.

Well, I need to wrap things up here..so have to go…please let me know how you are doing, ok??

Hugs,

YR

Wow YR,

Some very good thoughts. I hope they help Lisa.

JL

Hi everybody,

Just a quick post for now as I am working at a customer office today (and yesterday), so need to get my act together.

So much said, so much helpful info. I'll reply quickly to the shorter posts.

Nick - I belong to Esporta, and have asked H if he wants to join, but he thinks it is too expensive. I am not sure if the gym thing is him anyway. Because he played amateur Rugby League (a really, really tough sport), I just don't think he's interested anymore in sport/activity at all (well participating, not watching). Recreational companionship I know would score highly for me as an EN, even though I haven't filled out the questionnaire. With H, it would be pretty low. Funny enough, I am an avid supporter of RL and go to matches and watch the game with H - am very knowledgeable about it too, only learnt when I met him, and this means a lot to him.

Because I met OM cycling, I know this is a trigger and something we have to address. Ben you are absolutely right about that. Realistically, H says he doesn't mind. He knows I do not see or contact OM because of it, but he just associates it totally with the A - I understand this. We do have to get over this, and maybe I have to cut back for a while. Heck, the weather's going to change soon, and frankly, cycling in wind, rain, snow, cold isn't that pleasant. I only do it when training for a ride (yup Nick, I cycle in the winter!).

Nick, when H and I first got together, he didn't want more children. Before we married, we talked about this issue, because I always felt that one day I would want children. H agreed that this wouldn't be a problem. However, since I graduated (rather later in life), and became so professionally fulfilled, the importance of children took a bit of a back seat.

Coupled with that, I became increasingly physically active, and those are things that have been important in my life. I am a selfish person - I know that, and having semi-parented the girls when they were younger (YSD was only just 3 when she started coming to us), I know how much looking after, dedication and care kids need. Sometimes I think I am too selfish to give that up, and also, since the problems started in our marriage (even before the A), I knew it was not the right thing to do. Now, I cannot see myself having children with H in the near future. Partly, because I am not sure if we have a future.......

JL and YR I will get back to you later when I have more time. JL, you didn't get under my skin at all - rattled the cage a bit, but not under my skin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> No, seriously, I need to be challenged, this is very important for me. My H always tells me I look for support where people agree with me. That's why he was disappointed with the friends I communicated with about the A - neither told me to get a grip and give it up. For sure, they wouldn't have been able to make me, and I probably would have turned elsewhere.

Anyway, back later.
Lisa

No time again tonight to post replies to JL and YR, but thank you both for thinking of me. Will get back tomorrow - sleep well....

Lisa

Night night, Lisa...

Hugs,

YR

Well, back again finally. The good news is that my work has picked up after some painfully quiet weeks, which means I am out and about and busy. This is good for me, and my work always stimulates and challenges me.

So, where to start. That wise old sage JL I expect....

Quote: "I think you need to tell H of your ambivalence. It may hurt him but he needs to be able to deal with your feelings. He needs to be honest with you, and he is having a hard time of that hence his anger. He hurts, he cannot get it out, he gets angry, and then you hear about it."

JL he senses my ambivalence, without me confirming, and this makes him say that he should leave as there is no point. He seems not to be able to get past anything. He certainly cannot deal with my feelings currently - his own are still way too painful and intense. Today is exactly 2 months since d-day, and I know he would throw the towel in if I confirmed my ambivalence. I have tried to be as honest as I possibly can in the kindess possible way.

Quote: "You see in my feeble brain, this is all about seeing if the marriage can be saved. I and others here know it can, but you both have to be willing to deal with this and give each other time to evolve your feelings."

Well, you certaily don't seem to have a feeble brain to me! I know what you are saying, but as YR picked up on, there were issues about me and how I felt long before the A, which neither of us know if we can get over. I have not found my H physically attractive to me in a long time..... Hard to get over or around this. Whatever SH says, I don't think you can make yourself physically attracted to someone, or can you? If love and life purely about meeting emotional needs?

Quote: "You two need to face each other and agree to try and not hurt each other, but to be very honest with each other. It has been awhile."

There is nothing I would like more than to stop hurting each other, but once he agrees to it, he still comes back and bites me in the bum!!!! Sorry, don't know if I should use that word, but you know what I mean. He doesn't stick to what he says, so how do I handle that? He promised me last Thursday that he wouldn't keep being verbal with me, and he broke that promise.

JL, I know it's hard and even though I do not know if I want to be married to him or not, I do understand that if we don't give it a go, it will affect both of us for the rest of our lives. When I hear about some of the BS and WS on here trying so hard with little or no response from their partners it disheartens me. Neither H or I are trying that hard - both of us because we really don't know if we want to.

YR, you and I just seem to empathise so much. You say something on your thread and I think "I KNOW EXACTLY what she means" and seems vice versa too. Thanks for the support.

Quote: "I think what I finally figured out..is my H is looking for me to offer the sacrifice..even when he is saying it is ok. He wants me to offer this freely….he wants me to want to prefer to be with him above all things..he doesn’t want to have to ask for a place in my life…he wants to be my life."

YUP, YUP, YUP!!! I agree wholeheartedly. All my H wants is for me to consider him first and foremost and give some of the energy and time that I do to others to him. It became increasingly difficult to do this when he wasn't here, because I lead my life as I had to, to cope, keep busy and get on with it. It is hard to change behaviour...

Quote: "I also have a hard time with ‘pretending’ that he is my life..and ‘feeling’ that I want to put him first above all others after the past few weeks of abuse."

Again, couldn't agree more - so how do you do it? Although I don't think I have suffered the abuse as you have, I am waiting all the time for the next incident, what's going to upset him, what will set him off (a bank statement with money withdrawn, DOH!!). I feel unable to try, so what do you do to keep motivated, bearing in mind for me, I'm not sure I even want this?

Quote: "Lisa, have you ever thought about scheduling some counseling with the Harley’s..for either you and/or your H? I think that would help more than many other types of counseling services"

I have, but I really don't know how much it would cost from the UK. Probably well outside what I could currently afford. I did go to my IC today, but not sure about her, after thinking she would be OK, not so sure.... H is still going to IC but refusing MC. At least he hasn't gone back to the moving out thing.

Quote: "You know I totally understand this..am in same place myself and am not sure if I am being any help to you at all..but I wanted to try. Do you think you may need the help of some anti-depressants for a few months?"

Firstly, you and everyone else are a great help!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Equally, I don't know if anything I say to anyone, let alone my own waffle is of any help or makes any sense - see the same!! I did think about anti-d's a while back when I literally would not get out of bed, but although I still feel depressed, it is not as severe. I have been using St John's Wort (a herbabl remedy) - not sure if it is helping. I just am against them really, but I did suggest it to H, and he thought I was being condescending!

Quote: "Is there any exercise activity that H is interested in that you could do together other than cycling for right now? I’m not talking forever, ok?"

He's just not interested - he used to be so physically active, I don't know why he has no interest now. He tries something for a week or 2 and gives up. Recreational companionship is right up there for me...

Quote: "IMHO, A’s are a symptom of a bigger problem within ourselves.

I also struggle with whether I want to be married or not…one of the reasons I am putting up with everything…is so I can take time to decide. If I were sure, I would have been gone a long time ago"

Again, I sooooooo agree. I realise my A was to do with me, and that is why I am going to IC - I absolute, fundamentally, abhor the notion of infedility, so why did I do it? Again, sure my needs weren't being met, but neither were his. It is not that simple or straightforward for me. Something inside me changed. I wonder whether because he was due to come home so soon, whether I was either a)testing the marriage or b)trying to bring it to a close in the worst possible way -he won't want me back after this..... Do you understand?

I too struggle with the whole marriage thing as you know. I have been a pseudo-single (as I referred to myself) for the past 2 years. I have just finished "His Needs Her Needs" and frankly there is so much in there I don't agree with, or perhaps equally feel I could not do for my H. This is what worries me - I'm not committed enough, so what I am doing all this for? Am I making it worse for H?

Things have been calm again this week, but we are not talking. H doesn't want to or can't Plan A. I told him part of Plan A was taking care of himself and doing things for himself. He is going to visit his Mum by himself this weekend. I know I should go, but I would rather he enjoys himself meeting with old mates etc.etc. doing stuff for him, without the anxiety of me hanging over him. I know this goes against the Harley principles, but I want H to enjoy himself (even for a short time), and he's better placed to do that without me.

He has also taken to sleeping in the spare room - he was keeping both of us awake (no sleep last week as you know), and at least this means we both sleep much better. It feels like it is slowly falling apart..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Like you YR, not sure what to do, where to be, or who to be with.

Thank you all for your support, sorry this is such a long post.

Lisa

Well, after my long drawn out post, H comes home last night. I sense he is quiet and ask what's wrong "Nothing, except the usual" he replies. I steel myself for what next...

H is very calm, but just states that he has finished SAA and whilst he can understand it and thinks it has helped him to a certain extent, he is not prepared to wait and try for 6 months or at all. He wants to end our relationship and move on. He wants to change his life radically.
He still loves me, but cannot get over the A and is not prepared to try.

He has said until ES-D's 18th birthday party is out of the way (birthday today, party 21st), he will stay here, not tell his mum etc. etc. but then wants to move on. He wants me to work out financial settlement (house etc.) as soon as possible.

The organisation he works for has a post in Cypres (would be a good job for him, sigh), and he is going to approach them, explain the situation, apologise for messing them around and try and go for the job.

He is very calm, and direct. None of this was done in anger or with recrimination. Perhaps it is time to let him go.

Anyone, please let me know what you think.

Sad in London tonight....

Lisa,

I think he is being way to premature. He really should stay in his current posting for about a year and let this evolve. You cannot stop him from wanting what he wants, but I think you might want to encourage him to stay around for his children and for his career.

I think he is running away right now, and that is NOT a good reason for him to change positions again. If you can do nothing else for him, see if you can get him to stay in his current position for a year. That would be my recommendation.

I suspect his big sticking point is that you don't really have any attraction to him. I know that more than the A has to hurt him deeply. THe A just reinforced that you were serious and that he failed. It is hard to face, but he shouldn't run.

I realize that you are ambivelant about all of this, but see if you can do him the favor of convincing him to stay for a year in his present position.

God Bless,

JL

JL - glad to know you are out there - usually, my time never connects with you!!!

I have told him that he came home for two reasons - me and his girls, particularly YS-D. He believes she is getting older (14, more independent), and that he would be able to explain to her why he needs to be away.

I told him last night (as gently as I could), that I know I have not appeared as "gung-ho" as I could be, but I too have doubts about how we move forward together (didn't want to use the word ambivalent). He knows this, but I don't think he has enough inside to carry on, although I know, I could "potter" until I knew for sure either way.

He also said that work will not sustain him. Whilst he enjoys his new position (more than I have ever known him to before), loves the area in the City of London (right by the River), likes the people etc. he believes none of it is enough without me, and home. He only wanted to be with me and home, and then extend out the family life with the girls.

I will do what I can JL, I know he would regret it if he rushed in to anything. ES-D is very resentful of him going to Germany. I have mentioned this before in a previous post. I know she is soooo highly principled and moral, but she has forgiven me and accepts what happens, and tends to blame Dad a bit. If you remember "I don't blame her Dad, you left her by herself". I think she would resent even more if he didn't face up to stuff here and left her again.

Thanks JL, always so wise and supportive.

Lisa

Dear Lisa,

I'm sorry not to have posted to you - I've tried to keep up over the past few days and saw you were in good hands. I am really sorry to hear this news. I agree with JL that he is running away from this, and I would encourage you to try to change his mind, even if you find that goes against your instinct. Emotions are still running very high here and a year from now you both may very well be looking back and saying you wished you had weathered this storm.

Clearly you both have issues that were present before the affair - but those issues are not dealt with in just a couple of IC sessions.

In my case, my H and I slept apart for about a month after D-day - he was violent and abusive (as was I). Now, 6 months later, he has 6 months of IC under his belt, and although we are not yet into MC, it is looking closer and closer. Things have improved so much. I am just getting myself ready to go out and hear him play in a concert and he really wants me to come. TIME - you both need TIME - and neither one of you seems to want to give that to the other. You both want it fixed and fixed now and that just doesn't happen.

Your H sounds depressed to me - going from being v physically active to not being physically active is a symptom of this. Physical activity is what he needs most to burn off his burdensome thoughts - can you not get one of his friends to ring him up and get him out to go play a game of tennis or squash - men need to hang out together doing something like this before they can start talking to their friends. He sounds lonely and has retreated inside himself. He doesn't want to go to MC because he is not yet clear in his thoughts yet about what he wants to say to you. Can you not tell him that you will wait to go to MC until he is ready? Perhaps he feels your anxiety to get things "worked on now" and he cannot deal with too much right now - he can only process one thing at a time.

As JL said, try to get him to stay in his posting for one year, and tell him that you know he needs time in IC - that you are willing to wait.

As to your physical attraction to him - do you think that you would be physically attracted to him again if he were as fit as he was when you met him? Or if he showed interest in physical activity - it is obviously (and wisely) important to you - it would be good if this were something you could share.

Also - when communication was at its lowest point with my H, I tried to get him to play games with me - I remembered that he liked backgammon so one night I got out the board and asked him for a game - that is how I got him to engage with me again one-to-one without us having to talk or to "relate" to each other. He picked up the ball and ran with it and we played night after night, which helped keep him home and not be tempted to go out to the pub with OW. I also gave him a set of boules, and we played that this summer. My point is, you don't have to talk to be involved with each other one-to-one - playing games is something most men love - Scrabble, whatever, Monopoly? Find HIS game - and then play it - he will feel relieved that you want his company but you don't have to talk - it holds you together through the bad times. And you end up laughing over each other's stupid moves. It also gives him a chance to beat you at something.

This is what has worked for me - my R is slowly improving, but it is a long haul. I really hope this is just a dip on your rollercoaster ride. I'l be thinking of you.

Take care,
LIR

Lisa -

I was coming here to post to the reply you did yesterday only to find out you have some more updates...wow, girl..I gotta get faster at this stuff!!

OK..where do I start? I will spend time with this post replying to your post from yesterday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YR, you and I just seem to empathise so much. You say something on your thread and I think "I KNOW EXACTLY what she means" and seems vice versa too. Thanks for the support.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know what you mean...and I'm delighted to find someone else who truly understands where I am coming from. I'm there for you no matter what you decide, I hope you know that. Your support has made things easier to bear.

When I said in one of the earlier posts that I know my H wants me to "put him first above all others " and I said it was hard because of the verbal/emotional abuse (etc.)...you wanted to know how I did it, right? Well, I'm not always able to..and that is the problem. Sometimes though..oh gosh, I just know this is going to sound wrong...I think about the situation from the perspective of my 'feelings' and 'actions' for the OM. Example: If I have been asked to go somewhere with friends over the weekend, I ask myself "If I felt for my H right now..the way I felt for the OM, would I go?"..usually the answer is "No Way!"...so I choose accordingly. I used to always mentally phrase the question "If I were with the OM right now, would I take my friends up on their offer"..but I find it helps to phrase the question with my H specifically in mind.

I would have always placed being with the OM above any other option I was offered...not that it is not a good idea in any R to have separate interests..just that I enjoyed being with the him..and he would have factored quite a bit into any decision on where to spend my time. When my H is trying to be nice and I'm kind of lackluster in my 'thanks'...I think...how would I be reacting if I were feeling for my H..what I felt for OM...and I immediately can see the gap in the way I respond..and the way I would respond..shoot, is this making any sense?? LOL...I think you see what I mean. It is not easy, but I figure I owe it to H to try and treat him with the same degree of enthusiasm, respect, and love that I showed the OM. Granted the OM was not LB'ing and emotionally abusing me all the time...but in a way, I am offering this effort as a sacrifice and an atonement for some of the errors I have made in our M. This way I try not to get too mad when he doesn't immediately start acting better. It is a gift..and you should not have expectations when you are giving a gift if it is 'no strings attached'. Usually, if I can do this..this kind of 'fake it till you make it' type of love behavior..he does respond.

I did get a dozen peach roses after the major LB'ing he did to me the other day, I will post more about that on my thread later (Not that I wanna go through getting my feelings put through the grinder in front of kids in order to get roses). I bit my rapid-fire tongue..and continued to try and treat him as I would the OM. Gosh, I just know this sounds awful to the BS's..ok, I don't know that for sure..but I'm afraid it does.

Hey, I understand about not even being sure if I want this or not..so how do you keep motivated to do it, right? Well, I do it for myself..not for him. I do it for many of the reasons above..partial atonement, sacrifice, and wanting to be a better person. It is easy for me to be loving and kind..and a good friend under good circumstances..and when the feelings are returned. The true mark of selfless behavior comes when I am able to do this when perhaps it is not returned...or even, in my opinion deserved. That is when it is a 'gift'..and unconditional one. I do it to better me as a person, to increase my tolerance..and because I know it is the right thing to do. My heart hurts me too much when I return anger for anger, hurt for hurt. I have too much pain and guilt crowded up inside me to add any more to it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I sooooooo agree. I realise my A was to do with me, and that is why I am going to IC - I absolute, fundamentally, abhor the notion of infedility, so why did I do it? Again, sure my needs weren't being met, but neither were his. It is not that simple or straightforward for me. Something inside me changed. I wonder whether because he was due to come home so soon, whether I was either a)testing the marriage or b)trying to bring it to a close in the worst possible way -he won't want me back after this..... Do you understand?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely understand. I wonder if I had an A for much the same reason...a kind of 'take the decision out of my hands, please' type of thing. I had also always detested the idea of unfaithfulness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I go through each day wondering if we will be able to hold our M together or not..but I am trying not to think of anything as 'wasting' our time...it is 'practice' for being a better friend...a better Mom...a better co-worker and employee..and yes, a better wife..hopefully for current H..but if not, then perhaps for someone else..some day down the road.

Well, my London Friend....I will post a separate reply to your news from today in just a little bit. Hang in there, Lisa.

Hugs,

YR

Hello everybody.

Thank you for your responses LIR and YR. LIR, how is your son now? Better I hope.

OK, things are calm today which is good, but a couple of things to respond to.

Quote: "In my case, my H and I slept apart for about a month after D-day - he was violent and abusive (as was I). Now, 6 months later, he has 6 months of IC under his belt, and although we are not yet into MC, it is looking closer and closer. Things have improved so much. I am just getting myself ready to go out and hear him play in a concert and he really wants me to come. TIME - you both need TIME - and neither one of you seems to want to give that to the other. You both want it fixed and fixed now and that just doesn't happen."

LIR, how an earth did you deal with the violence, abuse and A and still stay with your H? You surely are a very good person to do all that. The problem we have is that we are 2 months since D-day and now we have started sleeping apart. Based on what that wise old sage JL said, I thought I would give it 6 months to see how I felt. H though is not prepared to give it any time. This is what he has said, bottom line, don't want to give it six months....

The physical activity thing changed a long time ago, it has not been since the A. I do think he is depressed, but he will not use anti-d's - thought I was being condescending when I suggested it. I wish he did have a friend I could call and get him to do something, but he has lost contact with a lot of his mates. He has always been like this. Even friends from way back he is no longer in touch with. I wish he did have someone to rely on.

I have been trying to get to do things with him. He plays a little tennis with me, but he gives up on it. This week I really had to encourage him to join me - already, he is giving up on it. I will try and see if scrabble or something else may take his fancy. I will also try to get him to stay in London. I think he needs to do that for the girls anyway. He has already asked about the other job.

Quote: "I know what you mean...and I'm delighted to find someone else who truly understands where I am coming from. I'm there for you no matter what you decide, I hope you know that. Your support has made things easier to bear."

You know YR, that's one of the nicest things anyone has said to me recently <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I wish you could know the real Lisa - the happy go lucky, active, bright, funny Lisa that I used to know... Maybe one day she'll come back.

You know that OM stuff you were saying struck a chord. Unfortunately with me, because as I have said previously, the bubble never burst with me and OM, it gets silly because I think of nice things about OM, and then that gets me down. By the by, the last person to buy me 12 peach roses (yes they were peach too) was OM. Also got lilies and champagne too.... See, am off on an "I miss him sooooo" rant. STOP NOW!!!

Quote: "The true mark of selfless behavior comes when I am able to do this when perhaps it is not returned...or even, in my opinion deserved"

Heck, I guess this is why you're a Christian and I'm not. You are certainly a good good good person YR. I just can't seem to get there. I did hug BS today, just out of the blue, and he appreciated it so much, I know. Don't know why I did it, felt sad I suppose because I feel it is all falling apart.

Quote: "I go through each day wondering if we will be able to hold our M together or not..but I am trying not to think of anything as 'wasting' our time...it is 'practice' for being a better friend...a better Mom...a better co-worker and employee..and yes, a better wife..hopefully for current H..but if not, then perhaps for someone else..some day down the road."

Deep stuff YR, and you're so sure of yourself in so many ways. That's the only thing where I think we're so different. You know that if you give it your absolute best shot, whatever happens in your M, YOU will get something back in return. I wish I could stop closing down as I do. I opened a little this afternoon, but it is the fear of being hurt anymore, and hurting H anymore.

I feel so down as I type this it is untrue. I really want to bawl, but H is downstairs, so I will end on an upbeat note.

Last night eldest S-D came round for a little 18th birthday celebration before she went out with her friends. I was soooooooo proud of her, it hurt!!!! She looked so pretty, happy and confident. I feel proud that I helped her get there too.

Lisa

Oh dear, things seem to struggle from bad to worse.

H went up to visit his mother today and go to the "match". He met up with a couple of friends of ours, and this has triggered him. They're saying "How's Lisa, she's great, etc. etc.", and H is thinking "If only you knew the truth". He got very drunk, put the phone down on me twice, was angry, and then even worse, started telling me down the phone how I had "broken his heart".

I feel so worthless when he says things like that, because it just brings home the whole awfulness (is there such a word) of what I have done and the A. To have treated another human being (and one who I was meant to love and care for) in such a frivolous and thoughtless way is terrible. I do not think he will be able to get over this.

Not much else to say, how can I express my feelings when basically I am scum.

You are NOT scum. If you were you wouldn't have acknowledged your mistake in having the A and the guilt and remorse of hurting your H.

Lisa, we're all human and we all, WS and BS alike, have done some incredibly stupid things in our pasts. You had your whopper but are doing your best to make amends fpr it.

Don't lose hope, we're all here for you.

Thanks Coffee Man, feel really bad about everything today. I should be trying harder with my H, but it's that rollercoaster that everyone talks about. It's hard when he's so angry and hurt, because I know I shut down and go into self protect mode.

It's all sooooo sad. If I only knew then what I knew now. I suppose of course I knew, but didn't articulate or think about it then. Selfish WS behaviour - typical really.

Thanks for your kind response.

Lisa, you are NOT a scum! Not at all.

Lisa, your H is acting just like I did for the first 2 months after D-Day. After one month, I moved downstairs to the couch. At 6 weeks, I blew up good at her, said hateful, regretful things. She moved out a couple days later.

I had started Anti-Ds, but they had not kicked in fully yet. I am soooo much better now on the Anti-Ds. You both would do yourselves a favor to get on them ASAP... especially your H. I could not have gone through what I have been going through without them.

ST

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>... and H is thinking "If only you knew the truth". He got very drunk, put the phone down on me twice, was angry, and then even worse, started telling me down the phone how I had "broken his heart".... how can I express my feelings when basically I am scum.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa,

Dont let it grind you down too much. Look at it as a painful yet necessary vent of bad emotions, which HAVE to come out somehow. of course it hurts, of course it would be best just to forget the lot & move on, but this is how the healing process works. The next outpour will be less intense, less frequent etc etc until you both are 'back to normal'.

In the mean time, have a Vindaloo, check out that nice Rioja and go to Esporta - take your man with you and put him on the rowing machine; as a rugby player that'll be the thing for him.

(at least a similar strategy worked in my case this weekend; had a vicious curry, watched that trigger-happy-tv video, got drunk and went for a run from wimbledon over to twickenham, richmond, hammersmith, putney and back to wimbledon... ground me down pretty much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

N

Lisa -

I've been gone for a few days and have been unable to post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Let me see if I can catch up here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish you could know the real Lisa - the happy go lucky, active, bright, funny Lisa that I used to know... Maybe one day she'll come back.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That Lisa is still there...she has not gone anywhere. I see glimpses of her all throughout your posts. It will get better, I promise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Heck, I guess this is why you're a Christian and I'm not. You are certainly a good good good person YR. I just can't seem to get there. I did hug BS today, just out of the blue, and he appreciated it so much, I know. Don't know why I did it, felt sad I suppose because I feel it is all falling apart.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, I was an atheist all my life until last year. You don't have to be a Christian to approach life and people this way. I actually have tried to do things like this for most of my life. I don't always succeed. I wish I did. Trust me, this has nothing to do with me being a good person...rather, I want to do the 'right' thing so I can feel 'good'...or at peace...kinda selfish in a weird way....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Deep stuff YR, and you're so sure of yourself in so many ways. That's the only thing where I think we're so different. You know that if you give it your absolute best shot, whatever happens in your M, YOU will get something back in return. I wish I could stop closing down as I do. I opened a little this afternoon, but it is the fear of being hurt anymore, and hurting H anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I laughed at this comment because I always have felt somewhat unsure of my ability to pull things off...but I know that I will survive no matter what happens. I am a survivor...although I have had my 'suicidal' moments...I have a strong will to survive...heck, to excel...not just to survive. I don't think we are that different...I may just be more stubborn and obstinate. I also get confused about when to 'let go'...this caused me probs with ending my 'A'. I have a horrendously hard time 'letting go'. I also 'shut down'...but then I regroup and wade back into the fray...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night eldest S-D came round for a little 18th birthday celebration before she went out with her friends. I was soooooooo proud of her, it hurt!!!! She looked so pretty, happy and confident. I feel proud that I helped her get there too </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awww...she sounds like a cutie. I'm glad you were able to be part of her life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He got very drunk, put the phone down on me twice, was angry, and then even worse, started telling me down the phone how I had "broken his heart".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa, I know how hard this stuff is to hear and how very painful it is. Can you remind me when d-day was for you and your H?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think he will be able to get over this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that is a decision he will have to make...the real decision is whether he wants to stay married to you or not (if he does, then if he can't move past the A...it won't make for a very pleasant M). It is probably very hard for him to think right now of being able to get over it. The feelings are too fresh and raw right now.

That is the bottom line decision for both of you...do you want to stay married....

When he has talked about leaving...have you asked him "what would it take for you to stay?"...I'm curious as to what he would say to this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not much else to say, how can I express my feelings when basically I am scum. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, now don't make me get on a plane to come over and shake some sense into you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> You are not scum...you are a good person who made a bad decision. You can feel bad about the decision...you can feel remorseful..and you can resolve to never do such a thing again - but an A does not make you scum...so get that out of your head right now...you are feeding into a self defeating posture here. Guilt is fine...if it is a motivator to do something different the next time...but you can't live feeling guilty over this A for the rest of your life....

Ironic isn't it....you want..or maybe it is better stated to say you need your H's true and total forgiveness (I am guessing this because it is what I would like to have from my H...) but yet, you can't forgive yourself...I think that plays just as big a role in your inability to truly move forward...as much as your H's attitude and treatment of you does.

You have wonderful things to offer to your H and others...you need some time to heal..and to forgive yourself...and your H needs the same. Big question for your H right now is does he want to be married..and he may not know...or he may think he knows, hence the desire to move away...so the question becomes (if you are willing to voice it)..what will it take to get him to stay (and yes, I know your ambivalence is playing a big role in tempting you to just call it quits and not fight for the M)? Doesn't mean you have to do it...but maybe what he says to this question will give you a better idea of where he is coming from mentally/emotionally.

Well, not sure if any of this helps or not...I gotta get back to work...let us know how you are doing.

Hugs,

YR

ST, Nick, YR

Thanks all for your support. It means a lot.

Not much time tonight, but will get back tomorrow.

Lisa