Hey relate ~ I don't think anyone on this board is offended by a differing opinion - but do you think you could hold off on accusing us of "nonMB" and "antimarriage" advice?

What works for some doesn't work for others, there's no single right answer here. Free asked for opinions, she's getting them. Most of us responding are very well versed in MB, have recovered marriages, and practice these things in our lives.

I think that before Free does anything towards reconciliation, she needs to see actions demonstrating that her husband intends to repair the damage he has done, and to take responsibility for his part of the marriage. This is no different than Steve Harley telling me that my husband had to demonstrate by his actions his sincerity. Steve expected my husband to be the one making the counseling appointments, and to actively do his homework assignments, and to work at practicing non-LB behavior. When those things didn't materialize, Steve Harley (Mr. MB himself) told me to divorce my husband. He told me that I could consider reconciliation, if and ONLY IF my husband was willing to do the work to repair our marriage.

If I had used your approach Relate, my husband would still be in his apartment, dating other women while I sat at home with 3 kids hoping that he'd change and come home.

Why? Because that approach made him comfortable. He didn't have to DO anything to avoid consequences. He didn't want a divorce (that was inconvenient and would have cramped his style) BUT he didn't want to act married either. He liked where he was at!

Once I moved towards a divorce, he had to choose - in fact the night before our first court date was when he came over and told me he wanted to reconcile. I wasn't impressed having heard it before. It took a month of his showing me ala Steve Harley's advice before I let him come home.

So maybe YOU don't think my advice is MB. But I know it is, having used this in my own recovery under the guidance of a MB coach.

Clearly you have a different opinion, and thats ok. But it doesn't make our different opinions non-MB and anti-marriage.

Anyway, Free - sorry, hopping off my soapbox now....I think it sounds promising. Ask him what his plan to rebuild your trust and love is. Tell him that you need time to make a decision. Then watch what he does. If he really means it, you'll know pretty quickly.

Free,

It is lovely to hear you are being pampered and happy after the misery we found you in a few weeks ago.

I think that you should put in boundaries in a loving way - say that you *are* committed to the relationship, but it would really make you happy if he did the things you want. But it is not MB to say or hint you are not committed, even in plan B.

In MB *you* do the building and the working. It is not to make him work on it; you cannot make him do anything. As it says repeatedly the focus is on *you*.

I think you are doing that to hurt him back for hurting you. Or that you want to be expensive and see him chase you to feel good after feeling miserable going after him for so long. I think you will happily wait for him a long time if he were to go away now. But the feel good factor it gives you is not worth the damage; not worth the love it busts.

As you experienced, it busted his love and spoilt a lovely evening. The result would have been different if you had said 'I really want you, but I am afraid that I will get hurt again. I would love you more if you could <do something> to rebuild trust and give me reassurance.'

Just try that the next time and see the difference.

- relate

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Hi there Free, I'm new, but can relate, and I wanted to support you here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . It's hard when someone is acting one way and then another. Especially when you want to believe them and are in love.
My 2 pennies:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Free2BMe:
No matter what, I'm not ready to physically reconcile. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Peace and Love, and all I can say is trust your trusty intuition.
Keep the faith,
You're worth it.
-bbs

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 03:45 AM: Message edited by: blueberryskies ]</small>

As MB principles state don't trust your Taker instincts, Withdrawal instincts, Conflict instincts, Demand instincts, Disrespectful Judgement instincts, Angry ourburst instincts etc. Go against these instincts we all have and learn the MB actions, deeds and word. The Taker instincts will ruin the marriage.

- relate

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Anyway, I just think that he's willing to settle down with you now. I think if you show commitment, he will do whatever you want. I think you will regret it if you let your Taker cast doubts and trip you up now. Certainly balance your Giver, not by casting doubt, but by asking for what you want in a loving way.

All my best,
relate

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Actually, an unbalanced Giver or an unbalanced Taker will destroy a marriage. Taker and Giver are meant to be balanced. Taker instincts are NOT wrong. Taker instincts let you know when your needs and boundaries are being neglected. Too much giving without any taker to balance it breeds anger and resentment and empty love banks.

I have not suggested that she "force" her husband to do anything. She should ask what he intends to choose to do about the problem he created. IF he says that he wants to take responsibility for his part of the marriage, and demonstrates it (because he has a long history of lying to Free) with his actions - then she gets to choose what she wants to do as a result. Noone is forcing anyone to change. She is simply protecting herself until he demonstrates willingness to protect her from himself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong> I think if you show commitment, he will do whatever you want. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wouldn't it be nice if being "committed" actually had the affect of our WS doing whatever we want? That's pure fantasy in some cases -- ask many of the long-struggling BS who haven't made it into Recovery or are divorced. Their lack of recovery doesn't mean they weren't committed, or that they mis-applied MB principals. All WS and situations here are NOT the same.

I think, considering Free2's situation, she has gotten very good advice in this thread. A person can only take so much torture before they break. We DON'T want to see Free break.

I'm curious, Relate, since I don't remember reading any posts about your background...what is YOUR story? Where are you in recovery?

Lori

I should love to see you recover. He's here and is wooing you. Brush away the negative thoughts.

- relate

ps: I haven't had infidelity in my marriage. Maybe why I am able to look at it with more romance and less bitterness.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Originally posted by relate:
ps: I haven't had infidelity in my marriage. Maybe why I am able to look at it with more romance and less bitterness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sigh..

First of all, let me commend you. You obviously have a heart of gold, and see the silver lining in all situations.

What you are suggesting in this thread is solid MB advice. Meet EN's, and all will be well, or at least better.

Like you, I also have not had the agonizing betrayal A in my M.

Having said that, it does not appear to me that simple romance is the issue here.

Usually, for there to be romance, there has to be trust. In this particular case, it seems as if trust is missing.

He needs to take responsiblity for his actions, and be wholly accountable and open in every way. He has not yet agreed to this.

Until he demonstrates this behavior, there is a gaping hole where trust should be.

Secondly, you mention bitterness. I believe that you are misinterpreting caution, dashed hopes, and an aversion to potentially being lied to.

You are correct, if you meet EN's, the R gets better, and Happy Ending happens. But the couple needs to be playing fairly with one another.

I believe that both parties in a R need to be accountable first, then romance and a pleasant attitude can thrive.

Free is being accountable, the ball is in HIS court.
-bbs

MBing is not to focus on what he can do for the marriage, but on what you can do for the marriage. The goal is not to be right or fair or to hold him accountable; the goal is to be married.

The way to make it a great marriage is to ask him gently for what you want, specially when he is throwing ball after ball into your court.

I don't want a whole lot of BS on my back. I want to give you my advice to not throw this wonderful chance with the man you love so much away.

- relate

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>MBing is not to focus on what he can do for the marriage, but on what you can do for the marriage. The goal is not to be right or fair or to hold him accountable; the goal is to be married.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, but no. It's not. Not for me anyway.

I've been married for almost 17 years. I know about being married. I don't just want to be married. I want to have a *good* marriage... a great marriage, if at all possible. And that takes 2 people.

I can lay the ground work. I can make all the changes in my own life to work on me to make me the best wife and person I can be. I can Plan A my butt off to meet his EN. (My WH, BTW, returned the LB questionaire blank and said that I never did any of that so he didn't see any need to fill it out.) I can do everything in my power to make my WH as comfortable as possible, and he will be. He'll be so comfortable, in fact, that he gets the idea that he can have the best of both worlds -- his wife meeting his needs and being here 24/7, and his OW meeting his needs and being there 24/7.

My WH had to get uncomfortable before he would do anything. And that's the pattern a lot of us see.

You said you've never had to go through infidelity in your own marriage. I hope you never do.

Do you have any idea what it would do to your lovebank to find out that your spouse sat down at a computer early one morning and wrote a beautiful love letter to the OP, declared their love, reaffirmed their soulmate status, and talked about how they were afraid to be alone together because they'd end up sleeping together, how they were getting that second chance to get things right between each other, have that spouse hit send on that email -- and then have that still-loved spouse crawl back into bed and run his/her hands down your body and have sex with you, without so much as one single word or love or caring? I do.

My WH was well on his way to becoming a dedicated fence-sitter. He actually told me he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted/wants us both. He would be quite happy to stay my husband and keep things at just this level, but I wouldn't. He would drain my lovebank dry while I Plan A'd and he played both sides of the fence, and by the time the OW got tired of being the OW, I wouldn't want him anymore, either.

Sometimes, the kindest thing you can do to a WS is to let them know that your lovebank is overdrawn, and their behavior is cashing checks you can't pay any more. It may not keep you married, but for some of us, just being married isn't enough any more. We want the good/great marriage we know we could have -- if we could just convince our spouses to get rid of the addictions (drugs, alcohol, OP -- take your pick, they all count).

Free, I really hope he gets the point. Protect yourself. He says he's in love with you. If that's the case, then his lovebank should be full enough for him to act on it. When you've been lied to over and over, the words stop having meaning. You're not being vindictive when you ask for proof.

Mere

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Merentha ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>I haven't had infidelity in my marriage.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aaahhh...

Poor Free's thread has been hijacked by 'let's criticize relate'. Gosh! the way you attack every sentence, no wonder your WH's want to get away from you.

Just give your advice and let me be.

- realte

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by relate:
<strong>Poor Free's thread has been hijacked by 'let's criticize relate'</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, no criticizing or attacking intended here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> "Aaahh" was my way of noting that I now understand where you're coming from with your opinions. Personally, I have the sad experience of being a WS and BS, and that's where I'm coming from.

Feel free to post your opinions freely, Relate, as the rest of us do. It just helps if we know a poster's backgroud and experience so we know where they're coming from. Thanks for clearing that up.

Lori

Well, I've never had any infidelity in my marriage either, but I've also been reading Free's posts since before she was Free2BMe (hi Free--long time lurker here!). This has nothing to do with criticizing relate--just disagreeing.

I think BrambleRose, Lor and BluberrrySkies have hit it on the head. After so many instances of false hopes, and outright lies, it is up to your husband to demonstrate to you his commitment to honesty, and his willingness to be accountable, and to take responsibility for the recovery. Not to punish him, or discourage him, but to show him that he needs to step up the plate before you'll put your heart on the line for him again. I think you need action from him, not more pretty words.

I've been here a long time, and I know how hard you've been trying to deal with his issues, even before your marriage. I really want to see you happy and peaceful. You deserve it.

Martes

From SURVIVING THE AFFAIR pgs 86 & 87, using the Sue & Jon example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sue's affair had withdrawn so many love units from her account in Jon's Love BAnk that by the time they reunited it was deeply in the red--she had a negative balance. Jon had not just stopped loving her, but he had started disliking her...

Their reconciliation was more difficult because Sue's affair had not ended the right way--with immediate total separatation from Greg after she realized she was in love with him. By pursuing the affair, Sue created many emotional obstacles to recovery...

But I made it clear to Sue that Jon would only return to her on the conditions that she follow my entire plan for recovery....

Four Rules to Guide Marital Recovery

The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.

The Rule of Care: meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.

The Rule of Time: take time to give your spouse undivided attention.

The Rule of Honesty: be totally open and honest with your spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Free So, according to this, both you and your H have to agree to do these things before reconciliation occurs.

And, where are you? What's going on?

Relate sorry you feel picked on. I believe that people who haven't had to cope with infidelity can have very good input, as you said, not so emotionally charged, but yet, empathy is also important. And, your advice may be right on...for someone just finding out. Which is not Free's situation. Dealing with an ongoing affair, separations can not only drain a lovebank, but nearly drain your soul. Also, I'm not sure you understand the pain some feel at being physical with someone who has betrayed them, not to mention, STD screening should come first.

As you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Physical intimacy is his most important emotional need. Come on, you know you want him. Give in to him, but slowly and exquisitely. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">may not be the safest or healthiest course of action either physically or emotionally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong>...people who haven't had to cope with infidelity can have very good input, as you said, not so emotionally charged, but yet, empathy is also important. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...Just Learning is an excellent example. I know he's saved many marriages with his wisdom.

Free2beMe, are you doing ok today? Sometimes life can be so darn hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ((thinking about you...))

Lori

Life is wonderful for her! She is walking on air!! He has searched the world for happiness and realized his happiness lies with her. Now he is doing everything he can to make up for his mistakes. And she is graciously accepting his attention.

I want her to give him the best chance she can. Optimism is an attractive attitude and is almost a self fulfilling prophesy.

- relate

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Relate,
I can't argue with optimism <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Though I was thinking about trying to for a moment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have my signature line for a reason, and a reminder to myself.

Hi F2BM, sorry to butt in here.

Relate, I noticed you are using my story around here to point out 'bad' advice. I can't stop you writing whatever you please, but I'd like to point out that the people here are very supportive and knowledgeable. They have got me through numerous tough situations and I very much appreciate their advice.

I've also noticed that you told GC that she was a good candidate for plan B, so you are contradicting yourself.

I would prefer it if you didn't use me as your weapon to fight others on this website.

I'm sorry you feel like you have been attacked, but if you put your opinion out there, you've got to allow others to disagree.