Yesterday (Sunday) was quite a day. My H was working all day - Sun is the day I'm on my own. I took the boys to Mass at 11 and they were running around, chasing each other afterwards while I was talking to my friend. My little son (6 years old) climbed on to a low wall right next to me, and tried to jump down, but seemed to get his foot stuck between the wall and the lampost. I was slightly behind him and my friend was facing him, so I went round to try to help him, and as I did so, got to him, he suddenly doubled over as if he had been punched in the stomach, opened his mouth as if he were trying to take a breath, then slowly collapsed into my arms, passing out cold. Both my friend and I saw this happen and we are both convinced he stopped breathing - just stopped - there was no sound, and he wasn't panicked - his foot came free with no problem so it wasn't stuck - he just lost consciousness - he went totally white, all the colour drained out of his lips and his eyes rolled back - his head twisted backwards slightly as he went down.

I brought him down in my arms to the ground and rested him on my knees and immediately started shouting for someone to call an ambulance over and over again until someone reacted - a man came over and started taking his pulse - I asked him if he was a doctor and he said he was with the ambulance service, but off duty. I think my son was out for about 30 seconds to a minute, then he started coming round, but he was very "shocked" - very pale and very drowsy - the ambulance arrived within 5 minutes and within a few minutes, he was able to get up and walk into the ambulance, where they gave him oxygen on the way to the hospital.

My friends brought my other son with them and followed us to the hospital. Well, we were there all day, getting tests, which were so far inconclusive. They did blood tests, checking for diabetes, urine sample, chest X-ray, ECG and blood pressure. My son recovered well enough to get around and play with the others, but I stopped him when he started to run around. The only things amiss on the tests they did yesterday were the globulin levels in his blood were very low, which puzzled them, and one of the factors on his ECG was higher than normal. They let me take him home last night since I am less than 5 minutes from the hospital, but I have to take him back this AM when he will be seen by a pediatric specialist and review these results.

When my son tried to tell the doctors what happened, it seems clear that there was no warning - he was not frightened beforehand - all of a sudden he says he couldn't "get a breath OUT" and he felt like something was "crushing his heart" - he also had pain in the back between his shoulderblades, which he said "hurt again" last night as I was putting him to bed. He slept on a little mat next to my side of the bed last night. Mommy is worried!

I talked to my dad by phone last night - my dad is a doctor - and he said the most likely explanation is that he suffered a temporary cardiac arrest. This could be caused by a conduction defect, a congenital defect, and is brought on by exertion, and can be fatal. In our family history, my husband's aunt had a congenital heart defect, which I forgot to tell the doctors yesterday. Or it could have been caused by an aberrant form of epilepsy, where the person does not "fit" in the usual way, but they stop breathing temporarily. Or, he could be a migraine sufferer (he has been complaining of headaches), and they sometimes faint as children, when the symptoms start.

What worries me is the chest pain, plus I saw him "go under" and I'm convinced that he just stopped breathing mid-stride.

Well, I will keep you posted as soon as I know anything for sure, but a diagnosis might take awhile.

I kept my H informed during the day by phone, and everything was fine with him - he got home about 8:30 and came straight to the hospital. He was OK, but worried as well.

Will keep you all posted, and am grateful for your prayers.
LIR

Will do, LIR. How sick with worry you must be! And what a blessing that you were right there when it happened. I will say a prayer for your boy tonight.

I will definitely say a prayer especially for him. I know you were terrified. Will you have to go to the city for the tests?

Estes

LIR

So sorry to hear about your son. Will be thinking of you and sending positive vibes.

Lisa

Dear friends,
Thank you all for your prayers. We just got back from the hospital, and the pediatrician's opinion is that he had what is called a
"syncopal seizure" - a type of fit which is very sudden, the child stops breathing momentarily, losing oxygen to the brain, causing loss of consciousness until the body is down on the ground and blood returns to the brain. He said this is not uncommon in children his age, although very frightening for the parents, since it doesn't look like an ordinary fit where they start to convulse. He said that if he had had a cardiac arrest, he would not have recovered as quickly as he has, and there would be indicators in both his bloods and the ECG that that had happened. He said his ECG was normal.

I am so relieved. All day yesterday, I was very calm, and by the end of the day, exhausted, so I went to bed as soon as poss after son went to sleep, but of course, was up several times in the night checking on him! It was only this morning that I started getting emotional and scared about the possibilities, but I now feel much more reassured. I asked the pediatrician lots of questions, and felt he gave me satisfactory answers. I asked my H if he felt happy with what the doctor had said, and he is happy, too.

Unfortunately, I had something of a confrontation with my H this morning at the hospital over his mobile. And maybe someone has some good advice for me. I had to call my son's friend's mother because I had fixed up with her for my son to come over and play today. But with all the commotion I forgot, and didn't have a chance to do it this am before we left the house. So once we received the allclear, we still had to wait to be discharged which takes some time to do the paperwork and I needed to call her. I didn't even think to ask to use my H's mobile. We were talking to some friends who were there - we live in a small town and we know people who work at the hospital in the children's ward - anyway, I asked where the payphone was because I needed to make a call - I also needed some change, so I asked my H if he had some change. He gave me some, then said "Why don't you just use the mobile?" and reached for it - it was in his pocket. Then he said "Oh, no, you can't use those in here," and started to put it away. Our friend said, "You can use it if you just take it out the front beyond those doors." But my H had by that time put it back in his pocket and started insisting that I take the change. I hesitated, because it was going to be a lot easier to talk on the mobile, since I felt I had to explain and you know how two mothers can be on the phone, when something like this happens - it deserved more than a 20p phonecall. But he looked at me and I looked at him, and then I saw the resistance in his eyes and so I just turned and walked out. He followed me out into the courtyard where no-one else happened to be and said "What was that look for?" I said "You just don't want to give me your mobile!" He said, "No, here take it," and started to type in the pincode. I said "Why don't you just tell me the pincode!" He hesitated and continued typing in the pincode. I said "You just don't want me to know the pincode!" He was holding the live phone out to me, but I refused to take it. I said, "No. I'm not going to use it until you give me the pincode." And I turned and walked out. I was so mad.

I am tired of being treated like an invader into his private space, even at a time like this. I am home right now. He has gone out to do some errands. I was civil to him when I came back, and he has been civil to me, and as he left to go out, he patted me on the butt. I don't think I should bring it up, but if he comes back to me later and tries to talk to me about it, I am trying to sort out what I should say.

What I want to say to him is that it hurts me terribly to be shut out like that and its time he started acting like a team player and putting his money where his mouth is. That's not a nice way to put it, I know. I need him to be thinking about us as a family, not about him as an independent person juggling his own conflicting needs. With him everything seems to be "mine" - my mobile, my bank account, my money, my car, my life, my ambition, my work. I want it to be "us" and "ours" - last night he came home and he never once asked how I was, had I had anything to eat, how did I feel, was I scared, nor did he say thank you for taking such good care of our sons - yesterday, even with all the uproar, I still managed to get away from the hospital for an hour and get my oldest son back to boarding school in time for lights out - except I was so frazzled I gave him MY toothbrush instead of his own - oohh yuck, Moom! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I even remembered to give him bandaids to put in his pocket to take to school tomorrow in case his new shoes gave him blisters! (I'm giving myself pats on the back here.) Maybe I'm just a grouch and expect too much out of my H - maybe I've become hardened and am not very kind to him anymore. Maybe I take things too seriously.

Well - any thoughts on this would be appreciated - it wasn't such a good way for me to handle it, was it? Or maybe it had to happen and was best it happened that way so he could see just how ridiculous he's being.

LIR

Well I'm so glad they found out what happend. Just reading I got that panicky feeling in my chest! I hope he continues to be ok.

Hi LIR,

I can see you even want to do relationship talks in the middle of a family crisis.

Let me see,
I don't have much time but let me touch some of this a little.

I think it goes back to him only being able to process one thing at a time. ( At least, that's how it was/ is for me.)

Now, I believe he is wrong for not giving you the code, but I don't think he gets that yet. I think he may be happy he is able to see ( even if only a little bit) about his temper and he is happy that he is starting to see what his mother has trained him to do. I believe it probably blindsided him there at the hospital and he wondered what was going on. He is really in a different world than you about some of this and doesn't see it yet.

With me, it was kind of like peeling an onion. I never could even guess there was another layer untill we got one completly off, then I would say " hey, what is going on here, I thought I was perfect and here is another layer to take off."

I always thought she was wrong and I was right until one thing was worked out and finished and we were pretty happy about that one thing. Then God would show me the next thing to work on, and I would be floored that I hadn't seen it before. I have even said " why didn't I see this before." and my W just smiles and says " I don't know, everyone else could see it."

I think you have a right to your anger if you want to keep it, but some of us men are pretty slow and we seem to respond better to love. ( I wish you could see me grin as I type this)

I have to go, will come back and addres this some more.

BTW, I am glad you found out about son, and hope he will be OK long term. What a fright. Glad it is not any worse.

SS

<small>[ September 02, 2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

LIR, glad you'r boy's OK, I just got back and saw this.

Hello all!

Son is OK! Has recovered a lot of his bounce and I trust he is his old tigger self again. He has been having a lot of headaches this past year and I had previously asked my GP about it - he has migraine-type symptoms - stomacheache and "sparkly lights" - my mother suffers from migraines and i have had the "sparkly lights" when I have been super-tired. Our friend who took me to the hospital said his migraine symptoms started when he was 6 and he passed out a couple of times when he was a child, so it is probably connected with that.

ss- yes, I am still thinking about R problems even in a family crisis. Not at all during the crisis, but what happened were "triggers" that set me off BECAUSE of the crisis. I don't feel I, or better to say WE should have to deal with his selfish independence issues at such a time. There were a couple of things that "triggered". The first was on Sunday night - he rang me on his mobile to tell me he was on his way home. He has an hour and a half drive home, if there is no traffic. He told me to speak up because he couldn't hear me, but I could hear the radio on really loud in the car - when I did speak up, he told me not to shout at him. I was trying to tell him something the doctor had said. Then I asked him where he was right now, meaning where are you in relation to home? He said "I'm on the M25" - this is like saying "I'm on Route 66" - yes, but WHERE on Route 66 are you? In the Midwest or California? In other words was he half an hour from home, or an hour and a half from home? His answer was in that cautious tone of voice that says "I don't like being asked where I am, and I don't have to answer if I don't want to, so I will only give a little bit of information and humour her." THIS drives me nuts and is another one of the issues he has with his mother. His mother is very invasive - always wants to know where you are, what you are doing, where you went, who you saw, which road you took to get there, etc. But I am NOT his mother and I am tired of being treated like I am his mother. I asked a simple question which any spouse ought to be able to ask their spouse when their child is in the hospital and I get treated like I am asking him state secrets.

So I persisted and said "Yes, but WHERE are you on the M25 - I mean, how long do you think it will take you to get home?"
"I don't know, I can't say exactly."
At which point, I said something to the effect that I ought to be able to ask him this question and get a straight answer. He asked to speak to our son, (OS) whom I was taking back to boarding school, then when son was finished, he said Daddy wanted to talk to me again.
I got back on the phone and he told me very carefully just where he was, as if humouring someone.
"OK," I said, "I'll see you when you get home., and rang off.

Now, I didn't stay mad after both of these "trigger" episodes - in the past, I would have seethed with resentment and eventually exploded into a big row at the next opportunity. But like yesterday, I tried to take "time out" and calm down and then be open to there being positive interaction between us despite this kind of stuff. In the past, I would shut down completely and refuse to acknowledge any positive approach from him in the hours which might follow. So I think I am trying to be less overtly resentful - I am trying to be more open to being positive - this is hard - I'm just not very good at expressing myself sometimes.

Yesterday, after he came back, we were able to regain our affectionate atmosphere between us. There was another "tiff" later in the afternoon when we had to take our son's stuff to his boarding house, but that passed over quickly. Late in the afternoon, he offered to make dinner - we had asked our YS's godfather to dinner before the fainting episode and had decided there was no reason to cancel. I thought it was really kind of my H to see that I was tired and stressed and to take over making dinner. So he acted as chef and host the whole evening last night and did a great job. After our guest had left, I thanked him. I said "Thank you for making dinner tonight. I was so stressed out all day yesterday ('Oh yeah? What about?' he interjected (!)) - and today I am so tired - I really appreciate you doing this for me today. And also, you did a great job!"
"No need to go overboard!" he said.

I get what you are saying, ss - about the onion peeling - its important for me to remember this. Also, we both have a counselling appt today (separate appts) - I am aware that he has not had a counselling appt since August, and I would rather he had a session before I try to discuss anything. I think he has a lot to digest, having just come back from a visit with his mother. (And his "best friend" - more on that later - another issue).

The thing is, for me, the "trust issue" is still there - I may feel that we are "in recovery" - both trying to work on the marriage, but he has still not come forward to change his "privacy" issues and these are good examples of that. They are BIG triggers for me.

I also realize that I am focusing on him again - but I am trying to get to grips with the dynamics between us and do what I can do to effect things in a positive way.

I start back to work tomorrow and think it is a good time to try to shift back to working on my own personal goals - YS crisis has come out well (Thank God!) - OS is settled back in school, YS starts school Thursday - time to get back to work on me.

Gotta go now.

Thank you all for your support. I read on Spacecase's thread, was it Bramble Rose who said the emotion didn't always come through in the way she expressed herself, but it was felt, and that's the way I feel - I reread my posts sometimes, and they look quite clinical in the way I try to explain things - humourless - believe me, I feel so much appreciation for all the people who have offered me guidance and support over these long months. REALLY!

Ciao for now!
LIR

Hi LIR,
Seems ( like all of us) I never get enough time to post, but here goes.

ss- yes, I am still thinking about R problems even in a family crisis. Not at all during the crisis, but what happened were "triggers" that set me off BECAUSE of the crisis. I don't feel I, or better to say WE should have to deal with his selfish independence issues at such a time.
Actually I was just teasing you, forgive me if I caused more hurt on top of what was already there. Probably it was in poor taste. Agree that he has selfish independence issues. Agree that you should not have to cope with that too in the midst of what went on with your son. HOWEVER, he has these problems, and just because you can see them, does not mean he can. Even when we realize we have a problem ( speaking of myself) it takes time, and method, to deal with it, and much practice and correction before it is "fixed."

I won't quote the whole thing about when he spoke to you while on the way home ( on M25) and his mother and all.
I had a friend whose mother was like this. After a time, he refused to talk to her about almost anything. She went so far as to call a girl he dated and asked her about the date because he wouldn't tell her about it. He is 48 years old and never married. I believe this is one of the reasons. He somehow thinks all women would end up like his mother. This is a problem, but I won't address it directly. You can address this just like the pin # - see below.

Now, I didn't stay mad after both of these "trigger" episodes - in the past, I would have seethed with resentment and eventually exploded into a big row at the next opportunity. But like yesterday, I tried to take "time out" and calm down and then be open to there being positive interaction between us despite this kind of stuff. In the past, I would shut down completely and refuse to acknowledge any positive approach from him in the hours which might follow. So I think I am trying to be less overtly resentful - I am trying to be more open to being positive - this is hard
This is hard, wow, what an understatement. You are on the right track, and that is why I encouraged you to read "Love Busters." It explains very well the alternatives to anger, and demands. Helped me a lot. You see, I have these problems with anger. However, my wife has a few faults of her own. I spent quite a few years trying to get a response out of her by asking nicely. Nothing ever happened so I learned that I could get a reaction by being angry. Harley explains that long term, that doesn't work. And he is right, things got worse over time. Much worse than before, and she would not listen to anything I said, anger or no. Has taken nine months to repair the damage, and it's not finished yet. I have found a better way.

I'm just not very good at expressing myself sometimes .Yesterday, after he came back, we were able to regain our affectionate atmosphere between us. There was another "tiff" later in the afternoon when we had to take our son's stuff to his boarding house, but that passed over quickly. Late in the afternoon, he offered to make dinner - we had asked our YS's godfather to dinner before the fainting episode and had decided there was no reason to cancel. I thought it was really kind of my H to see that I was tired and stressed and to take over making dinner. So he acted as chef and host the whole evening last night and did a great job. After our guest had left, I thanked him. I said "Thank you for making dinner tonight. I was so stressed out all day yesterday ('Oh yeah? What about?' he interjected (!)) - and today I am so tired - I really appreciate you doing this for me today. And also, you did a great job!""No need to go overboard!" he said.

Sounds like he really doesn't know what he did. This is where you need to learn how to discuss things in a calm manner. In our house it would have gone like this.
H What about?
W Can we talk about it now?
H Sure
W When we were at the hospital I asked to use the mobile and asked for the PIN # and you didn't seem to want to give it to me. ( note you should stay away from things like " you refused to give it to me" which is a judgment.) It was a trigger for me and I felt hurt and angry. (remember - I feel _________ about ________.) It reminded me of how you hid things from me during the EA and I was hurt because it felt like you still wanted to hide things. So, I wonder if we can work that out, so I no longer have these feelings. I wonder if you really wouldn't mind if I have the PIN#, but out of habit you didn't give it to me?
H I haven't thought much about it.

I suppose you get the idea. Again, stay away from statements of fact " you are still hiding things from me." and say " it feels like you are still .......
Often it goes like this " I wasn't trying to hide anything."
and your reply is "I never said you were, I said it felt to me like you were, and so my feelings were hurt." and you can explain about triggers again. This is the softer approach that we speak of.

Again, from the way he reacted, he doesn't know why you were so hurt, or understand the depth of your pain. This is where radical honesty comes in. You need to tell him your feelings about these things in a non judgmental way. Stay away from things like " YOU BIG JERK, WHAT DO YOU MEAN ASKING ME WHY I AM UPSET." There is honesty, and there is honesty.
( just teasing again, don't get mad at me.)

You should also know that sometimes you will start one of these talks and he won't understand and won't help. Simply say " thank you for talking to me." Then think about it for a few days and come back to it from a different angle.

I reread my posts sometimes, and they look quite clinical in the way I try to explain things - humourless -

It's hard to be any different about things that are so important to your emotional well being. I use humor so that perhaps it will lighten your mood some, and turn your thoughts a little positive. Your humor does come through often, and also your concern and sometimes your fear. But, this is MB and we expect all of that.

There is no way he would have cooked that meal if he didn't care. He wants you to be happy. Over the next few years, you can both find out how to make that work.
If you think someone is paralyzed from the waist down, and then one day they wiggle a toe, that is the start to waking again. I think you have much, much more to go on than that.

Lady, you want a rest. You want him to see, and respond, and give - like you are giving. Have some faith. I really believe inside of a year you will see it happening.

Now a totally unrelated question ( and you don't need to answer it if you don't feel like it.)
Where in the US are you from, and how did you meet H?
See you later,

SS

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi there -
I'm at work, with only a few minutes - I'm finding it frustrating bcos I have very little time when I can get to use a computer undisturbed, so I'm not able to post in as much detail on my thread, or others, as I would like - but I am still here - I check in on others and don't have time to say anything, but I am still "on board" here.

ss- so kind of you to take so much time responding - believe me, I find it so helpful and I still have so much to learn. I am seeing lots of positives between us - I still "seethe" sometimes and risk LB - there is a "monster in the closet", which will be the 2nd issue on my other thread when I manage to get back over there - I am just starting to discuss my feelings about this with my counsellor - my H has a "best friend" - a woman 20 yrs older than himself, they met when he was 19 and she was 39 - she is married and her family are his "surrogate" family - I believe they had an affair in the years before he met me, and she remains his closest emotional friend - a mother figure with a little added something to the relationship. I have tried to deal with this in our lives before, never with success, and I believe it is the source of the lack of trust between us.

What I am trying to do now with my H is to learn a new language of good, respectful communication between us, which builds love between us, so that when the time comes, we can talk about this "monster" and have a better chance of a good outcome. That's why all your little tips help me to get a grip on myself and HOW I communicate - in the past I have LB'd in a big way - giving in totally to frustration and coming out with lots of disresepctful judgements, instead of just walking away and letting there be a chance we could reopen the conversation later. I felt it all had to be sorted NOW, and if I met with resistance, I would take that as a sign that he didn't love me, which would make me mad and I would retaliate. I have done a lot to destroy the possibilities of love between us partly because I didn't understand men - that they need time to process things one at a time, go away and think about it, and come back. I didn't know how to persist patiently and kindly over time.

Do you think that I should try to talk about the pincode thing again? I mean, do you think I should be the one to bring it up? I am afraid of driving him away - but my resentment festers when I wait and wait and wait for him to bring things up and he never does. Then it looks to me like he is thinking "well, I got away by the skin of my teeth that time - if I don't mention it, maybe she won't" -

I have been reading a book by John Gray (Mars and Venus author) called What you Feel you can Heal - and it has a technique in the back of the book for writing "Love Letters" - will elaborate later - very interesting process.

Gotta go - quick - you didn't offend me - I'm just kinda dense sometimes! And I'm from LA - born there, raised there, lived there all my life til I came here!

Cheers!

LIR

Sorry! Posted twice.

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

One of the things we did early on - and I am not sure if it was my idea or her idea - was set up rules for having a discussion. It was a very loose informal thing but we still follow it at times when normal ( unsceduled relationship or any other) talks start to come apart.

We start by saying: " can we have a talk."
That is a signal to the other that there is something bothering the one that brings it up, and that it needs to be addressed right away.

Next there can be no angry outbursts or disprectful judgements. We can both recognize them now, and both tend to use them when upset. But we call the other on them and they have to stop.

Last, either can walk away if they get to upset to continue. We can always come back later.

Yes, I would bring up the pin number again but it may be well to get up discussion rules first and an MC would be helpful in doing this. In fact you may be more comfortable waiting for MC. All of the issues you have need to be taken care of if you want the pent up anger to go away, and if you want to feel completly in love again.
. Then it looks to me like he is thinking "well, I got away by the skin of my teeth that time - if I don't mention it, maybe she won't" -
I bet he just forgets about it because it is not something he holds in high importance. If you have not noticed yet, the two of you are very different. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> With all else he is doing, I think he believes things are pretty good, and doesn't realize the pain these things are causing. MC could be the vehicle to bring all this up if you can't find another way. BUT, for your own health and well being, you need to get it all out. It will affect your health someday if it has not yet.

You are giving us some good examples and some bad examples but we don't have a feel for every day. You must still be frustrated day to day by his treatment of you, or is it the frustration of all these unresoulved problems?

I know how it is to try and get time to post. I own my own business and can do whatever I want without cheating an employer, but it always costs time for something else and I always seem to be behind. Oh, well, better this than video games.

SS

PS, please understand that even though my attitude is good, and I am trying to "repent" as it were, I still make a lot of mistakes and we still have problems. Some days my W would probably express similar frustrations as you express. Some days she is very happy. Don't get the idea that if only your husband would wake up, every thing would be fine. We are much happier but we figure it will take another two years to work most of our legacy problems out, and that does not inculde any new ones that come up.

<small>[ September 05, 2002, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hey LIR,

First of all, I am glad to here your son is O.K. That is so scary. Did you ever think that maybe God is trying to get your attention?

The conversation at the hospital made me see that both of you appear to be on the edge of your seat waiting to jump at each other's throats. Am I right? It appears that if either of you are just the slightest bit insensitive, crass, or heaven forbid give a dirty look, the other gets offended and begins defending themselfs and trying to regain power.

Triggers are very helpful for us because they point out areas in our lifes where we need to work on OURSELF. Triggers occur because we have not fully forgiven the person that hurt us. If your H had not had an A, would the pin number make that much of a difference? More than likely the only reason your H is withholding the pin number is because you want it so bad and have made a big fuss over it a few times in the past. It is a power thing for him. As long as he has this over you, he feels power over you. Each of you seem to be trying to get the upper hand.

Search your feelings here. Do you have negative feelings for your H? Do you LOVE your H, and if you do HOW do you LOVE your H? What actions are feelings are demonstrative of your love?

I know from all of your previous posts that you have faith in God. You are very blessed in all that you have. Your children, your home, your job, and yes, even your H. As Job said in the bible after his first set of tribulations "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Is this the spirit you have and the faith you have in God? Once again I will say, Did you ever think that maybe God is trying to get your attention?

Remember that our perception of reality is relative. Pain and hapiness is always relative and dependent upon our perception. Joy and blessings are not relative.

allforlove brings up a good point about the pin # episode.

It probably is a control issue. I wonder if we really understand his motive. I tend to take the soft view that he does not do it on purpose and that he may not even realize he is doing it - believing that his mother trained him to clam up, and also he probably still has issues from the A.

If he was doing it on purpose, to hurt or control, it would put things in a very different light, however then the good things he does would make no sense.

LIR, you are in the best position to judge his motive, even with all your fears and hurt. So, what do you think?

Many of the other things allforlove brings up sound like things your H's long time female friend would say, and you (LIR) have discussed quite a few of them on other threads. I don't know if you want to address them all again.

allforlove, God is continually trying to get our attention. I always wonder why I don't pay better heed myself. I even think I know better, but I still make mistakes. It bothers me, but I am glad he loves me and helps me and doesn't just pile on the punishments. From the things LIR has posted since she started on the forum, I would think she is trying to do what God wants, but do you have a different take on it?

SS

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS,

It is so hard to describe something as complicated as this in short responses, and things I write here is often misinterpreted because of my summarization.

I do not think that God is continually trying to get our attention. Based on the stories in the bible, God lets things happen for a multitude of reasons. Many times he just allows us to bear the fruits of our bad seeds.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It probably is a control issue. I wonder if we really understand his motive. I tend to take the soft view that he does not do it on purpose and that he may not even realize he is doing it - believing that his mother trained him to clam up, and also he probably still has issues from the A.

If he was doing it on purpose, to hurt or control, it would put things in a very different light, however then the good things he does would make no sense.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Motives are not really important if we are talking about loving like God (unconditionally). If we only had 1/1000 of the tolerance, love, (and all of the other fruits of the spirit) for our spouses as God has with us, no forum would be necessary. Our interpretation of being loved or in love is all about perception. Our own attitude changes our feeling of being in love or being loved. Being of this earth, we focus on negatives and they drowned out all of the good.

I remember discussing with LIR and you the friend, and at the time I was nearly in total disagreement. Now, I am in only partial disagreement. I have been pulled closer to God by the Holy Spirit once I hit rock bottom, and now my perception of my wife has changed. I often fall back into my old habits of dwelling in my misery and her negativity, but this is happens much less frequently now that I am trying to view my WW as God views her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> God is continually trying to get our attention. I always wonder why I don't pay better heed myself. I even think I know better, but I still make mistakes. It bothers me, but I am glad he loves me and helps me and doesn't just pile on the punishments.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not think that God is continually trying to get our attention. Based on the stories in the bible, God lets things happen for a multitude of reasons. Many times he just allows us to bear the fruits of our bad seeds. In LIR's case, I have a vague feeling or intuition that God is trying to help LIR put perspective back in her life. This was by the threat of her losing her son. Sometimes in our pains we ignore our many blessings, far more blessings then we care to realize. We were given life by God, we were given a chance to praise God in this world, and we are continued to be blessed on a daily basis. Once we realize that in actuality we deserve nothing, the blessings are easy to see.

Once Jesus died on the cross for our sins, there is no more punishment for our sin. Our sin is paid for in full. The punishment is eternal death in hell for those who do not believe. Punishment is not taking away blessings. They are after all just blessings and we do not deserve them anyway. Naked we were born and naked shall we die.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From the things LIR has posted since she started on the forum, I would think she is trying to do what God wants, but do you have a different take on it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My apologies if I sounded judgemental. I guess in a way I was. I do not know LIR's heart and her closness to God. I do know how Jesus would have acted in similiar situations and can just mearly guage the difference. We are all sinners and we can not stop from sinning. Even our good works are viewed as filthy rags by God(But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. - Isa 64:6)

I have no doubt based on LIR's posts that she is trying to do what God wants her to do. Unfortunately, this is not the best thing for us. We can try and do all the good works we want, going to church, reading the bible etc., but that is not what God wants of us. He wants our faith and for us to be close to him. All other good works etc. will follow from that. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit of God we will have the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

May God bless you SS. You seem to fear God and he has blessed you with the knowledge of true LOVE (agape), probably far more than I could ever know.

For what it's worth, gang, I don't believe for a minute that God would allow a child to fall into danger for the purpose of getting his mom's attention.

I do believe, though, that He would work with her in a stressful situation to enable her to learn something.

But to let a child suffer to teach Mom a lesson, no way.

JMVHO,
Estes

Hi guys!

Interesting discussion going on here since I've been off the board!

Seems to me you have been weighing up questions which I have long ago given up presuming to know the answers to. Let me just say this - I appreciate all the responses to my postings.

Allforlove, you did not offend me and you raise some worthy points, which I don't think I can do justice to in just a few comments. Spacecase has a thread where people are talking about unconditional love - what is it? how does it work? how do we know we feel it? That is certainly something I have not only THOUGHT long and hard about but FELT through and through since my first D-Day last June.

I won't go into whether or not I think or feel I have unconditional love for my husband - that is too long a question for me to answer. What I think I can say is that over this time period (since last June), I have learned that only Christ has perfect love - I am only human, and I can only love with my imperfect human love. I can aspire to selflessness and sacrifice as best I can, but I am still only human. I no longer feel guilty for that. I don't feel guilty for having an imperfect love for my H. I am very aware of my own broken humanity - I have sinned against him, too, if you want to put it that way (punching him certainly qualifies on that score), and I am constantly reminded of my own tendency to be quick to anger, to be defensive, and my lack of patience, my own fears and insecurities which contribute to my not seeing when he is sincere.

Our Christian friend (the one I have talked about here before) has said many things to me, including that it is only when all the human love I have for my H is gone and I am emptied of that, that only then can Christ come into my heart and fill my heart with His selfless love. I'm not sure about this. People, even people of faith, say an awful lot of things that sound good, but what do they really mean in practice? This friend has also said that I have to stop "pointing the finger" at him. Perhaps it seems like that on this thread, because I have brought up specific points, things that have happened which I have had trouble dealing with. So I articulate what I think the problem is - I know that a lot of the time I have said "it's his problem" - and perhaps I haven't been very good at giving a more balanced view - but after the first couple of months after D-day, I realized I was obsessed with everything being "his fault" and "his problem" and I started thinking "now wait a minute, every time you think - I wish he would realize... I wish he could learn...perhaps there is really something YOU need to learn here." Bramble Rose's posts have really made me try to look at myself and come to grips with acceptance.

However, and this is where I draw the line, I do not have to accept being abused, dominated, or controlled. And my threads at this point are devoted to the nitty-gritty nuts and bolts of communication, where I am trying to learn what I can do better, to not contribute to situations that can then escalate out of control to the point where my H becomes abusive (which he has in the past). I have certainly reached the point where I searched my heart and found no love for my H, not a shred. All I can say is that I chose to go on with my H.

You say that perhaps God is trying to get my attention. God always has my attention. I might be looking the other way sometimes, but I am always listening for His voice. I tend to agree with Estes that God wouldn't endanger our children to get us to count our blessings. But strangely enough, last year, a similar thing happened with OS - he was punched in the head at school and suffered a concussion - I took him to ER because he was drowsy and sick and fell asleep on the sofa mid-afternoon - on the way out the door, we had a similar thing happen with the mobile - H at the time was TXT msging like mad with OW1 - I was initially pleased that he had given me the phone - I thought he had learned his lesson that the phone should be used FOR THE PURPOSE IT WAS BOUGHT FOR - for both of us to use in an emergency or if we went out at night - and that he shouldn't be getting messages on it that he was afraid for me to see. Sadly, he did not learn that lesson (and I later found out that OW1 had been out of the country at the time, so he had no fear of me finding any of her messages on the phone), and when he was done with OW1, he started with OW2, and then he locked it, and once he locked it, it became "his", and now it is no longer available to me, even in an emergency, so yes, this is a BIG issue for me. Now I think he is done with OW2 and things are so much better between us, but the lock remains on "his" mobile - so how do I REALLY know that he is done with OW2 or whether or not he has started with OW3? You see, the issue is trust, not love.

I could just say, I accept that you are someone who has a problem with privacy because of your mother, and I know there is nothing to fear, so I accept that you need to think you are in control of your own "space" and the mobile is now inside the circle you have drawn around your "space". But I did that for years - and it was his money, his bank account, his credit card, his career, his ambition, his career problems, his working holidays, his parents who needed attention, his friends we visited, and finally they became his children and his mobile. I thought I was being accepting, but really I was letting him be selfish. I thought it was not loving to be demanding. So I enabled him to be selfish. Of course, I didn't like it, and when it got to be too much for me, I exploded. That is the cycle I am trying to break. I am not willing to enable him to be selfish anymore, but I have to find ways to approach him about these points without being demanding or issuing ultimatums. That's what I come to the forum for help for. I hope that when I come to the forum, I have tried to say that I am the one who needs help to learn new ways of being - it's not all his problem, but it is not wrong to look at someone with open eyes, is it? In fact, it is a lot better to look at someone with open eyes and find there is someone standing there that you still love, rather than loving an illusion.

ss- I just want to say that I value your honesty and humility in sharing the things about yourself that you have shared with me. I have wondered how you feel about yourself - and how you have coped with realizing that you still had many things to learn - the onion-peeling thing - do you find it demoralizing, or is it just that you realize that you, like all of us, are growing, here on earth to learn and to grow as people? It is usually only through our traumas that we learn a fragment of wisdom about human nature and ourselves, I think - and that the best we can do as fellow human beings is to be open to learning and to share what we have learned with others. I hope you recognize the good things about yourself, as well as the things you didn't like so much - it looks like your wife recognizes the good things, too!

Again, there is a lot more I could say, but I have to end here today. Will try to come back tomorrow and then I would like to move over to my other thread, since my son is OK, and I don't want to worry anyone with the title of this one - maybe I could change the title?

LIR

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Glad your son is ok now.

IMHO, his actions in regard to the phone should send up a serious red flag. Since your H had the A, it is his responsibility to rebuild trust. To rebuild that trust he should voluntarily give you all the passwords to all his accounts, and pins and everything else. He should make himself an open book.

Since he won't - how is that phone billed? Is it a personal or company phone? If the bill is coming to your house, just call the company and tell them that you need to add "detailed billing" on the account. You will have a record of every call he made and received.

If he won't give you passwords to his accounts, get some software like Spector that records keystrokes. As long as you're living in the same house you can "spy" on your husband all you want. A spouse does not have an expectation of privacy from his spouse. THe computer is probably joint property like everything else you have regardless of whether he considers it to be "his" or not.

I've read that there's a really simple way to get the pin from a mobile phone but I don't remember the steps. There's some way of tricking the phone to display it. Does anyone else know how to do it?

Obviously, the big problem here is his need for secrecy. I'd say that's a red flag. Good luck.