J.R.:

"This GF has led such a screwed up love life. Has slept with probably 50 guys... got pregnant while unmarried recently - the R with the guy started to get rocky, so she got an abortion, etc."

This is very sad. I remember a story on the news several years ago, about a young woman having non-identical twins - one was white and the other was black. She had slept with 2 different men at a party and got pregnant by BOTH of them. It made the news because it was so unusual, but imagine what that's done 2 her life!

"WW has taken solice in having me there to lament about GF, many times talking about how screwed up she IS.
Yet in her present form, WW only has GF to turn to. Suddenly she becomes a great source of comfort - and advice! It's the blind leading the blind."

And this is even sadder, because it affected YOU, and because you tried so hard 2 help HER. What a life!

"She's got lots of wild oats to sow, I guess. We've seen the stories - quite common among those of us who married young."

I M'd young. The only "oat sowing" I did was an embarrassing visit to a cathouse in Nevada when I was 19. I always wanted 2 be M'd and share myself with ONE person for the rest of my life. Thought I had that, 2. At least for the first 15 years or so, I think I did for the most part.

I might as well use this thread to journal some more...

I'm a little surprised that IC/MC hasn't replied back to my e-mails to her, with my evidence. Maybe she's mad at me for the whole snooping thing... but more than likely she's in shock and doesn't know what to say. She was pretty optimistic for us... I think she looked at us like her "pet project" and thought that WW was making honest progress.

I'm so glad I found this information, as hard as it is. Because without it, we could have gone on for a LONG time with her playing coy, saying all the right crap to keep me believing, etc. At this point I have no clue what I could ask her for to convince me that she's serious - actions or otherwise.

I truly believe WW will never be willing to offer things like: accountability for time, care for my feelings, and just the "right attitude". I read that you can expect it to take just as long to rebuild as the deception existed in the first place. Well, with her 1st A years ago, she's got at least 5-10 years of lying to overcome. That'd make me 42... No thanks.

Next item... what to do with my info. My present thinking is this: I want nothing to do with her right now (NC), so I don't want to talk to her about it. Where does that leave me? A message to OM. If it gets back to her through him, that's fine. Remember, I have nothing to lose, except a lunatic wife. If she goes through this with him being kept a secret, she'll never face what she's doing, and OM may not have a clue either. She may even feel like it isn't an affair because she's "separated" - so maybe she's thinking it'll work out better this way. She'll (quickly?) learn that it isn't about where you think you're at - it's about where you ARE at that matter. And she needs to know that I know... You know? To know that yes, once again, her lies were found out... so stop doing it, fool.

(As a side note, I tried doing some Internet research on more details about this guy yesterday - and found next to nothing to speak of!! I found no phone or address info anywhere, no public record info anywhere... very odd. Even the Korean OM #2 guy had a trail. I did find one thing... Just typed his name into Google and found a web page with pictures from a guy... there was a picture of this guy and another guy with OM #3's name. There is some circumstantial geographical connection with this guy and us, nothing concrete. And interestingly, this possible OM #3 is Asian, too! But his name is North American, seems to be employed and have much better English skills.)

As another side note, I've joined the Prozac generation as of yesterday. We'll see how it goes. I think they say it takes a little while to make a difference, and even then it's a subtle thing. I'll take what I can get. Even at the expense of a little stomach upset. IC/MC was so convinced we didn't need meds - well, I'm going to be responsible for myself.

J.R.,
My vote it to let it out.
It seems about time she had the FULL consequences of her actions. When you leave the M, everyone should know why.

I also vote to tell the OM. He ought to have a heads up on what he is getting into.

J.R., you still have a lot of prayers and support ( you 2, 2long) here. I think you are going in the right direction, don't know what else you could do at this point.

2long, it's not running away from your problems to move your life foreward. You have to leave some things to do others, that's the way it works.

SS

J.R.:

I agree with SS, here. NOT telling your W what you know and what you're doing about it reminds me of my "week long plan B" in July. My W didn't know what was going on, and I didn't have the coaching at that point, so it didn't seem fair 2 NOT communicate with her. In the end, I think the limited replies 2 her email questions were good for her thinking. ...but then, as I note in my latest thread 2day, she's still in contact with Rat Meat, so we've still got a ways 2 go.

SS: Thank you very much for the kind words and thoughts. I appreciate them. I still don't know what I'm going 2 do about that job offer, if it comes (and all things being equal, there's a 75% chance they'll offer me the job). I will probably have a month or 2 2 decide, and they said the start date could either be January or June, so I at least need 2 round up the ducks and get them coaxial in the next several weeks if the offer comes. I should know in a couple weeks.

h'DOING! double post

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I agree.

The main thing that I'm debating right now is timing and format.

On one hand, I see my letter as once again forcing her to face reality - and as such, given how she suffered before - she may suffer again soon (or now).

I honestly believe her enjoyment from the A's can only exist in a particular environment... It's illicit, and illicit requires secrecy and deception - it's all part of the "thing". So without me around - she just has a regular, ordinary guy to deal with. There's no "special" feeling, thrill, etc. Just a regular guy who she can't ever truly respect, given how things started. She knows that. She's seen the other one die. My first NC phase helped that, I'm certain.

She clearly doesn't love these guys - she loves the feeling of being "in love"... and has had it for years now. She expects it to last while reality is bearing down around her.

She undoubtedly has a new hate going for me, too. Pooping on her parade by going back to Plan B and then some. She's got to suspect I know something... we'd been having some pleasant times recently - no reason to expect I'd "blow" like I did.

I hate to think what she's saying to MIL, now that MIL is in town for a visit. MIL wants to see us work things out, and right now, I imagine WW wants no part of that. Or at least on the surface. She's been so careful in talking with people, so as not to corner herself into a particular choice. Now that one appears to be made for her, it'll be interesting to observe her reaction - over time, and over the course of the destruction of this new A, especially after the whole thing blows apart with discovery.

I think right now, I'm a little hesitant to send my message right away. The main thing I'm thinking is that I never really, truly gave Plan B a chance on its own. And that means a Plan B where she has no reason to feel "secure" that I'll be there for her. I'm slightly curious about what might play out of this over the next few days. I may leave it until early next week. It would be sad if this thing only required a bit more time, yet my "outing it" becomes such a big LB$, that all my work for a year is gone. (Of course, the real work was for me first, though.)

But I'm torn... "A fast blow-out is better than a slow leak" (a line from Dobson) means a ton to me right now. It's so fresh for the crushing, begging to see the light of day. Certainly a different attitude than "last time."

I'm also torn if there may be a better way than sending a note to OM. That would certainly "out" it, but might make things far too difficult in the future. (I could imagine her becoming my worst nightmare, as opposed to a thorn in my side.)

It's also pretty bold, pretty cocky. Last time I did that, she admitted she gained a lot of respect. My message would be very logical, calm and polite. There'd be no latitude for attack or rebuttal.

So you can tell I'm very conflicted today.

I hope to go out with a friend after work... maybe that'll keep my mind off of this, and some new insights will arise.

JR,

I think you are getting way too wrapped around the axel on this thing. You are planning to move on, reinserting yourself into WW's live via these disclosures isn't going to help you her, or the OM. He may be a ignorant OM, but you should pay attention to who you date.

If you want to send him a note as you leave saying, "Good luck pal you are going to need it, the other three guys thought they knew what they were doing too." I guess that is fine. But, you need to be leaving and you don't seem to be. If you want to let relatives know why the divorce occured then do so. But in order to do that you must FIRST divorce her.

You are getting this whole thing out of sequence and more you are indeed confusing yourself. If you are truely done, the file for divorce, see it through and move home as you planned. Punishing her, reinvolving yourself in her life, or even contacting the current OM really doesn't accomplish anything. It simply justifies in her mind, that she was right to leave such a "hateful" man.

So my suggestion is back off, file if that is what you have decided, do a good plan B if that is what you have decided, and start to get YOUR life back in order.

You got my best shot at this JR, so I will close.

God Bless,

JL

Of course, you are right JL.

I am allowing myself to be a player in this drama, when I myself have chosen to remove myself. It's just hard not to, since I've been a part of it for so long now. Maybe it's like an actor who's done his part so many times, he can't do anything else.

But of course I can do something else.

But I also realize I'm hurting right now and probably not in a great position to rush to judgment quite yet. I do believe that once my own emotional dust settles (darn Prozac, kick in!), everything will be clear, clear, clear.

And I hear you about appearing hateful. It's difficult now, though - the cat's out of the bag with IC/MC - a whole herd of them, including my spying activities. Yes, I opened a pandora's box. Maybe wisely so, maybe not, but what's done is done.

I believe that I can apply the principle of POJA by myself in this situation. If I can't agree with myself to do something enthusiastically, I do NOTHING. So that's what I'm going to do for a little while.

JR,

what you still doing here man? you gotta move on with yer life JR. Don't be a victim man, take control of what you are and what you have.

peace brother,

- Freddy

I have to agree with the others. It's time to say 'whatever' and 'I can't be involved anymore' and walk away, literally. You are wasting valuable energy on her. You can not change this and lord knows you've tried. Try to for your own mental health to walk away. Taking those parting final shots at her means you are still dwelling on something you are trying to move away from.

Hold you head up, look at yourself in the mirror and say 'I'm done.' Start this new chapter in your life a healthier/happier person. (with all that IC, it's not as though you haven't paid for that too!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) It's time to focus on the future for a bit. I know you have dreams for your future, start making them happen now.

J.R.:

"The main thing that I'm debating right now is timing and format."

5:00pm PDT, Full justification. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2L <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hear everyone. My problem right now is that I had been so focused on possible recovery for such a long time, I denied my right to grieve the end.

So that's why I'm feeling it more now, I think. Because I'm really willing to let it follow that path.

And I need to just let it play itself out. I don't want to do much of anything right now. That doesn't mean playing her game or avoiding reality. It just means detaching, letting things settle out, and taking it easy on myself.

As for the debate about "light of day", I've back on the side of doing nothing with it for now. It'll take care of itself largely, at least in the short-term. IC/MC knows now, and she and WW can work with that info - either directly or indirectly. At very least, having proof into her hands may give her more effective tools in dealing with WW's issues.

But I don't have the will for a confrontation right now. I'm just tired and want to rest. (Or is that the big Indian lunch buffet in my stomach talking? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

J.R.:

It never ceases 2 amaze me that I can still learn valuable lessons from JL after all this time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Of course he's right. Your first order of business, after taking care of yourself that is, should be 2 do no harm, intentionally. I think that telling your MC/IC about your spying, putting all your cards on the table, wasn't harmful, after all she needs you 2 confide in her if she's going 2 be of any help. But you really don't need 2 be bringing this 2 your WW's or her brand new OM's attention - it DOES make you seem hateful, or at least it can be interpreted that way 2 a foggy brain.

The down side is that she has 2 suffer her self-inflicted pain for much longer this way, but she does have 2 make her own choices and face the consequences anyway.

Yep. Take a breather and think about this for a few days. It seems like your options are 2 either continue plan B or go 2 C and go home. But all in good time.

JL's got the benefit of perspective on this that I don't have. I tend 2 get emotional and make quick decisions when I clearly shouldn't. I'm sorry if my advice 2 you ever backfires (but I doubt it will, because you'll do what YOU believe 2 be right in the end, anyway, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Hang in there.

2L: I apologize. I certainly meant no offense.

HC: 2Long, after what I've been through with the A and all, and her jerking me around, you gotta do better than that to offend me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I got off on a vent to the WW. Just had been informed of the depos, and for the first time since D-day I initiated contact. Imagine my surprise when a person of the male gender answered her cell phone. I know it wasn't OM, so that struck me odd.

I think when we get pi$$ed, we start talking pi$$ed language. Know what I mean? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

J.R.: "She's got lots of wild oats to sow, I guess. We've seen the stories - quite common among those of us who married young."

HC: Ya know, sometimes I feel that it isn't the desire to "sow oats" that comes from being married young. I think that we all at some time or another will take a step back in time, and try to have another look at either how it could be, or how it is now. There are those of us who are comfortable enough in our adult lives, and mature enough, that we can go back and just "view", satisfy our curiosity with just that, and never leave. Then, there are those that stick their head in another time for just another look, and become so disoriented and confused that they can't find their way back.

J.R.: I truly believe WW will never be willing to offer things like: accountability for time, care for my feelings, and just the "right attitude". I read that you can expect it to take just as long to rebuild as the deception existed in the first place. Well, with her 1st A years ago, she's got at least 5-10 years of lying to overcome. That'd make me 42... No thanks.

HC: A very close friend of mine, who can probably get honesty out of the WW better than anyone that close to ME, had the chance to speak with her. What he told me afterwards? The very same thing. That I could probably reconcile with her if I could convince her thatI would be willing to do it on HER terms. Sorry, ain't gonna play that game.

I was thinking on the way home, and since I had to work 2 1/2 hrs from here, I had plenty of time. We all read and are told that we should allow ourselves to heal from a broken R, in order to keep the rebound thing at bay. I've never read this next thought anywhere, though.

Wouldn't a person in an A be experiencing the same effect? There had to be some part of a meaningful R with us. So...it seems to me that A's are doomed this way from the start, along with all the other things that are bad. They have "freshly" rebounded to the OP, and are just filling the emptiness that they, for some reason, feel with us. Basically the EN theory that we all talk about, but with a different twist to the "never will work".

The thread on here asking if the WS can actually be "in love" with the OP also made me think of this metaphor. Yes, they can actually be in love. But...I would liken it to saying that someone is "An excellent race car driver", but the problem is that the cars are of the soap-box derby variety. They haven't had to deal with other 3400 lb machines at 200 MPH just inches away.

"In love" on a MUCH smaller scale. Too simple to be of any great importance in life. But...yes, they technically are in love.

Enough of me ranting.

HC2

Hi JR,

I don't have much to add since I may be in a similiar situation - WW not willing to rebuild the M and seeks out another OM. That makes me feel like I did not do an effective plan-A or WW already made the decision to exit the M. One would think if you did a effective plan-A - the A is over - the WS would feel relieved to have a loving spouse to return to.

Well JR, I think you are doing great and keep up the good work for yourself. Its would be a shame to let your WW actions cause you to back slide.

Take care...

hceyeeye: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"Wouldn't a person in an A be experiencing the same effect? There had to be some part of a meaningful R with us. So...it seems to me that A's are doomed this way from the start, along with all the other things that are bad. They have "freshly" rebounded to the OP, and are just filling the emptiness that they, for some reason, feel with us. Basically the EN theory that we all talk about, but with a different twist to the "never will work"."

You nailed it.

"So...it seems to me that A's are doomed this way from the start, along with all the other things that are bad. They have "freshly" rebounded to the OP, and are just filling the emptiness that they, for some reason, feel with us. Basically the EN theory that we all talk about, but with a different twist to the "never will work"."

I couldn't agree more.

I think about it this way... WW may not even call or think that what she's doing with this "new OM" is "as bad" as what she was doing before. First, that's just hogwash.

But more fundamentally, she's already conceived it in dishonesty. Even just a few simple lies at the start will be enough to drive a wedge between them later.

I mean... here I am and she can tell me that she loves me. But when it comes to other OM, it's never been about that. She's never signed a message to them "Love". Strange? Again, her compulsion isn't based on an EN lacking so much as:

- Ego. She's been in a very "vain mode" for a while now. "Every man wants me." Sure, a lot of men will sleep with someone who's easy.

- Illicit nature. She recently called herself the "Queen of Deception". (Haha, meet the "King of Spying", honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) It's only fun when she's got me there, plus the guy in the background to sneak around with. If I'm gone, there's no-one left to "cheat on" - and the OM is forced to fill all EN's. Ironically, one EN of hers is a level of intimacy that only we shared... yes, only we. I could tell that throughout my Plan A... Admitted she could talk to me about certain things she couldn't talk to OM #2 about.

- Shame / guilt / lack of respect. These will always dog any OM. They may not RECOGNIZE these things when they seem them at first, but as time goes on, and the chemicals wear off a bit, they do come into play. Then comes the constant break-up / make-up cycles, hard feelings, etc. What should have been beautiful in a normal relationship becomes a rather miserable experience, yet one they have no power to stop. Sure sounds like fun to me.

- Selfishness. Almost always a major element of fog. Because they're in "me me me" mode, the other person is really just a filler - could be anyone, really. So long as they do the dance, they get the candy. If the OP slips up, even just a little, the selfish WS gets mad. Leads to more LB'ing and eventual death of the R.

Looked at this way, it really is a weak love they have going. Even if we assumed that WW and I were already divorced, if she were to start a relationship today (as it appears she has) - without doing the required work to "normalize" herself back to a healthy state - it will be a relationship conducted in the fog... and the fog almost always clears sometime. That's why I think you're right... not just A's are doomed, but most rebound R's are too, just by the presence of fog, which is often those unresolved feelings of love for BS that are suppressed or denied.

In a normal, healthy relationship, the players get to find each other in honesty. There's no guilty conscience about that. They get to learn about each other from a selfless standpoint. Things are done out of genuine concern and interest in the other, not out of an expectation. That's what builds the agape love that lasts. And it's the person's behavior, dignity and confidence that engenders respect and trust.

BTW hcii, the guy answering the phone... our WW's seem to be playing from the same play book here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

J.R.:

"In a normal, healthy relationship, the players get to find each other in honesty. There's no guilty conscience about that. They get to learn about each other from a selfless standpoint. Things are done out of genuine concern and interest in the other, not out of an expectation. That's what builds the agape love that lasts. And it's the person's behavior, dignity and confidence that engenders respect and trust."

And you and hcii (and just maybe me) will have the benefit of never blindly trusting again, either. Our future R's will be all the more rewarding for all the above, plus all we've learned going through this nightmare ourselves.

"BTW hcii, the guy answering the phone... our WW's seem to be playing from the same play book here!"

What a miserable existence!!

2L: never blindly trusting again

JR: Sad - but true. I mean, look at what I've stooped to. I've snooped in her private e-mail for ages now... even after being told "no! it'll only bring you down." Something in my gut just said: "She's gonna snow you, man." So, sure enough, my evidence does come. Just not what I was expecting, with a new OM and all.

Update: None. Very quiet. MIL is in town visiting WW. SIL arrives tomorrow. I hate to not see them, but I'm Plan B man, big time. Who knows what kind of trash-talk is being given to them. MIL was just last weekend being told I'll always be a part of the family and she said back to WW that she just wants to give me a big old hug! I've got a (gut) feeling this all will eventually make it back to them somehow, someday.

BTW, my gut is batting .1000 right now.

Heh heh,

Well, I finally got a response back from IC/MC... she was nice enough to phone me directly vs. e-mailing back.

Her advice: don't do anything right now. And for me NOT to send something to OM #3. I've got another appointment next Thursday (WW has one in the AM, me in the PM).

I've cooled off a lot since d-day #3... Doubt it's the Prozac yet, but I think it's just relief at getting back to NC and just KNOWING there's some certainty out there, about to roost.

I should have talked to IC/MC more while I had her on the phone... I was just kinda surpised, so we didn't talk a lot. I'm so very curious to see what exactly she's going to do with WW now. WW has always trusted her SO much, looks to her as a major "role model", etc. With the latest revelations, WOW... IC/MC has to accept now that WW isn't just unhappy about our M - there's deeper issues at play.

Haven't heard from WW since my D letter was delivered, but I'm not surprised by that: MIL and SIL are in town now.

As a side note... why is it that WS's pick ugly looking OP oftentimes? I believe there's a picture of OM #3 out on the Internet - all evidence says it's him. I'm not trying to be harsh or vain myself, but he's not very good looking. But he does look Asian - which is interesting because OM #2 was Korean. This is just my own personal opinion - but I think OM #2 looks WAY better than OM #3 (recall, I confronted OM #2 in person). Also, OM #3 is rather short - I know WW really likes TALL (both OM #2 and I).