I'm a lurker. Have been for many months. I came to read and learn and validate a lot of things I'm feeling. There are so many wonderful posters here who offer great info and insights. Tywla's response to Micky on July 31 should be required reading for counseling for couples considering marriage. I even pay a lot of attention to Hope4Future because she offers some insight from the other side as do many other WS's.

But something I read here a few weeks ago has really made me upset. I've had it on my mind ever since, so now I'm going to get it off my chest.

Several WS posters said they cannot remember the events of their affairs. I find this unbelievable. Those moments they spent with their lovers were what, at the time, they were living for. They couldn't wait to get together with the OP to continue what they were involved in. Those times with the OP were the HIGHLIGHTS of that period in their lives. The things they did, the words they spoke to each other, the places they went, were magnified in their minds then. It was what they were craving, that next opportunity with the OP. There's no doubt that after their meetings, probably for days, not just hours, THAT'S what they were thinking about. That's what they were fondly remembering.

And now the WS's want their BS to believe they "can't remember". Give me a break! You can bet your bottom dollar the WS's can remember almost everything. These were pleasant times for the WS and the OP, and good times are easy to remember -- fondly. I consider it just as insulting and demeaning to be expected to accept that they "can't remember" as it was to be the victim of their affair.

These are the same people who can remember to the quarter ounce exactly what each of their babies weighed at birth, or how many points were on the buck they shot 15 years ago, or every detail of their first traffic accident. They recall vividly their first high school prom or the kid in school who bullied them. But they "can't remember" their affairs. Yeah, right.

I'm not expecting them perhaps to remember the name of the motel or the colour of the back seat of the car. But to expect the BS to believe that the basic details are forgotten, is just incomprehensible. I need the questions answered so I can somehow piece things together. Instead I'm met with the THREE I's (I can't remember, I don't know, I don't want to talk about it). If the WS doesn't know, then who does? … I wasn't there!

One thing was certain during this period of forgetfulness. The WS's knew enough to LIE. There was enough memory alive & well to make sure to avoid telling the truth. My wife's affairs began 28 years ago. They lasted for four years. I was lied to for 26 years including the years the affairs were ongoing. D-day was over two years ago. She knew enough to lie, she must know what she was lying about. I do not want to hear "I don't remember". I do not want to be told "I don't know". I want answers that make sense. I want to be able to make some sense out of this. "I don't want to talk about it" leaves the same communication gap there was 28 years ago when it was suggested "they" were easy to talk to.

I anticipate the suggestion that "forgetting" on the part of the WS might be an unconscious means of blocking out something they now consider painful or that they're regretting. I expect that I'll get flamed for this comment, but I just don't think they've got that right to abdicate the debt of truth. For a change, BE HONEST! Get the affair out in the open if there's ever to be any recovery or reconciliation. Otherwise, the affair in some way continues. It remains the secret of the lovers involved, to the exclusion of the BS. The BS was excluded in the first place. That's what made it wrong! That's a big part of the betrayal. "I don't remember" leaves the affair intact. Painful for the WS to recall? Walk a day in the shoes of the BS and I'll show you pain.

I just buy the "I don't remember" theory. Life during the affair was simply too entertaining and too interesting to have become forgotten. These were not just good times, they were BETTER times for the WS. That's why they got involved. They were having a BETTER time than dealing with mundane daily stuff like children, bills, jobs, faithfulness, car payments, responsibility, fidelity, mortgages, honesty, openness, etc. If it was SO great, how could they possibly forget?

Many of you are dealing with a WS who claims poor memory after only a few months or a couple of years. If you're willing to accept that the person who lied to you about the affair is now telling you the truth when s/he says "I don't remember", it's something you'll have to judge for yourselves. Personally, I think it's the ultimate lie. ("I cheated on you, I had sex behind your back, I pretended you were important to me, I lied to you a thousand times, I put everything else including our family in second place, and I know you know all this, but gee, now I forget what happened!")

I've said my peace. As with all the posts here I'll be interested to see who says what, whether you agree with me or not. I'll continue to lurk and still try to learn what I can and to work through my own feelings. Thanks to so many of you who are here regularly. Now I'll just join TooMuchCoffeeMan and ease back in my chair with my java.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I hear you loud and clear! I'm a BS. Will be back later tonite to let you know what I think.

Replaced

YUP!!!! I haven't gotten the "I don't remembers" yet, but I have gotten plent of the "I don't want to talk about it". All a bunch of BS(not betrayed spouse) if you ask me. A bit crass, but a good point LTIW.

The ow called wife today.
I've spent last 5 hours trying to explain why
I lied and why I cant remember. Isn't it a good thing? Doesn't that mean I'm over her now? I understand how you feel but if all I remember are the good things, how can I rebuild?

How many lies does it take to cover up one lie? Who knows?!?!? Is it 2, 20, 200??? Whatever the answer... when you're trying to get clear details from a fantasy built on lies, you're in for a lot of bumpy sailing.

My bet is that the main reason a WS cannot remember is because their memories are based on feelings and emotions.. NOT on times, dates, and locations. The affairs are based on emotional needs being met. The association of feeling good is with the OP (or so a WS thinks... until their spouse stops meeting some of those EN's and forces them to stop fence sitting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

I'm not sure of your story... but I will hazard a guess that if you talked to your W and asked her questions based on her FEELINGS, you'd get a LOT more answers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Karen

LesThanIWas

I sounds to me like you want specific answers about what happened on specific dates. If I am correct about that, then you can most likely forget it. Topie is correct about WSs remember feelings and emotions and very little about dates and places.

After D-day, my H wanted to know all of these things about dates and places. He would ask what we did on such and such a date. I couldn't even begin to guess what the answer was. (Ok I could guess but I didn't know if it would be the correct answer.)

Once my H finally got past wanting this kind of information and we got down to talk REALLY talking about, he was surprised at how much I could tell him. But I was talking in terms of how the OM made me feel. All of my so called "good" answers were based on emotions.

Just to give you a more specific example...my H once asked me how I felt about a particilar date on the calendar. I responded that it was just another day. He was astounded and later informed me that it was the date that my A became physical. I had no idea. But once I knew the significance of that date I could talk with my H "more" honestly about how I felt about it.

I hope all of this makes sense. I know you are angry and you want answers but you aren't going to get the answers you want going about it on such a logical level. Affairs are not logical. All in all, I would greatly suggest that you talk with your W in terms of feelings and emotions and stop concentrating on dates, times, and places. Presuming your wife is working with you to rebuild, I think you will be surprised at the kinds of answers you get.

Regretting

I'm not looking for dates, places or petty facts from my WW. I simply want information. I need to know what was going on. I need to attempt some order out of what happened, to be able to put things into some kind of perspective. Specifics (especially after 28 years) are probably going to be hard to come by. Our D-day was almost 2 and a half years ago. I'm still right where I started in terms of emotional response. Recovery? - for me, not even close. Forgiveness? - hopeless right now. Can anyone else move on when they only get the three "I's"?

Spouse expects me to believe she can't even remember whether or not she had sex with one of her partners (the FIRST one). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It must be the stupid look on my face!!! Much of another of her affairs she's just not talking about. Again I hear "I don't remember". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

What I'm after in this thread is to get an insight from others, particularly other WS, about the credibility of NOT remembering. How much of "I don't remember" is accurate, and how much is a good (but feeble) attempt to shut down any truthful dialogue. Is it just said to deflect the conversation, or is it intended to avoid hurt for one of the 3 parties involved (WS, OP or BS)? Does the WS really "forget" or is it, as I called it earlier, the ultimate lie? Do you say it because it's true, or because you don't WANT to remember?

I'd also like to hear from other BS if they also get told their WS doesn't remember. How does it make you feel when you hear that? How do you respond to it? Do you believe it?

I accept that the events were in the past. But if the lies, deceit and untruthfulness continue into the present, the affair is still alive. Hiding the facts, covering up the deeds, refusing to answer straightforward questions, protecting the affair partners, were what made the events affairs in the first place. What is different if disclosure is still refused after contact is finished?

Should we believe the WS who says "I can't remember? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi lesThanIwas,
I love your name by the way. I'm the bs, 2 years into recovery. I have always gotten the 3 I's
for answers, and for good measure my h throws in
a healthy dose of anger. Works everytime!!!
I don't know, I can't remember are standard responses. It drives me nuts. 1 example of this
is he made a phone call to her on our home phone
to supposedly ask her to stop calling him. (after
d day) Now the phone bill says they talked for 28 minutes. H says, NO WAY, you know me, I never talk for 28 minutes on the phone!!) And he can't remember what they talked about. 2 years later he
still stands by this statement. (Just to irritate him I point out every now and then how he just spoke to a friend on the phone for over this time!) I want to know what how on earth saying,
Don't call me anymore can take 28 minutes! He insists this is all that he said. And he doesn't
seem to see how stupid this is. So he tries oh
****, not again!! How many times are you going to ask me this. I'm going to ask till I get a beleiveable answer. I do not hound him about it, we are doing really well and it was over 2 years ago, but it will drive me nuts until he gives me a more truthful answer. We rarely talk about the affair at all anymore.

I have been able to process, and to a large extent
get over most of the sordid details, it is the ones that I know he is not being truthful about that still nag away at me. A lot of it is just plain embarrasing, how stupid does he think I am?

How does it make me feel: Stupid, and angry.
I feel sorry for him that he can say and think something so stupid! I cannot fathom why he thinks these answers will ever satisfy me. He knows that I have gotten over some pretty revolting facts. I dont think his answers could be much worse than seeing his body covered in hickeys?? I am pretty sure he was not telling her
he was in love with her and couldn't live without her, because I am pretty sure he wasn't.

I don't know why he won't give me some of the details I need, but suspect it is because he has lied orginally and doesn't want to trip himself up. He has maintained it was a physical affair, she meant nothing and they only did it 3 nights.
But...he was drinking VERY heavily at the time, was depressed and going thru severe mlc, in short he was a mess. So a lot of it will be foggy for him.

I don't want to give the wrong impression here, he has been totally remorseful, there was no dithering on his part once I found out about his affair. Correction, once I had proof of his affair, because beleive me he went to extreme measures to deny deny deny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But his favorite
statement other than I don't know, I can't remember is I don't want to talk about it!
I gotta tell you it's a real conversation stopper that one, oh at it hurts like heck.

Another thing that bothers me (oh theres plenty of those beleive me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ) is: I never ever think about it (the a)Only when you remind me!
Now, 2 years down the track this may be true, but for the past 2 years this has driven me mad. How could he not???

ok vent over!
I liked your post, you put foward some very good points and questions.
heartsore.

Wow! Was I glad to come across this issue! Yes! Yes! Yes! I often get the "I don't remember". You don't remember where $200.00 a week went that wasn't paying our bills? You don't remember being gone so many nights every week? You didn't remember that we were still in marital counseling when the sexual part of your affair happened? Oh, you did use condoms? Then how could she possibly think this child was yours? Oh, well maybe you didn't use them every time. You don't remember where or how you spent time together? You really were looking for my Christmas present of Christmas Eve, not spending time with her? (The Christmas present that somehow never got delivered!) You really don't know what attracted you to her and why you had the affair? I find this amazing when I know how much attention to detail you pay when I'm involved. You notice my new haircut, new outfit, special events in my life, etc. That's one thing I've always loved about you!

True confessions on my part: I had an affair when I was married to my first husband. I can tell you practically every detail, every nuance, of our time together, and that was 13 years ago! I thought that this man was my soul mate. Maybe it's different if someone is just in it for the sex or lust.

I don't remember <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Really? Funny how you can remember an incident that occurred 10 years ago and can't seem to remember one that happened (let's say 2 weeks) at that time. My H has "selective" memory- it's what he chooses to remember, regardless of what I need.

Another of his famous responses "I don't know" I got this one after finding condoms in a box of personal items. Hmmmmm, let's see OW told me they didn't have protected sex, hmmmmmmm Why did he have them? Here's his answer- I was at an adult store and they had them in a bucket (free) and I just grabbed them. Hmmmmmmm, yep makes perfect sense to me (I mean my god, look at all the applications you could apply to these amazing rubber balloons-)

He never gave answers, a year and a half later I am afraid this is the reason I won't and cannot trust him (of course there are more of the "I don't knows" and "I can't remembers" along the way)

What has this done for me? Taught me that H has no ability to act like an intelligent self controlling man- he wants to act like a child and play the "I don't know game"

Just venting- Hopefully you'll get past this

k9love,
I don't often laugh out loud by myself whilst at my computer, but your reply made me laugh!!
Thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
And I so so so know how you feel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Very interesting topic.

I just found out about WW affair less than one month ago. A while ago I was filing and going through old receipts (been putting it off for months) of which most of the time period of affair is during. I actually had to stop because now that I have all information, I could now pick out gifts, dinners together, etc. and the whole puzzle makes sense. It's very saddening.

But back to the topic. I don't think that WS's are happy at all during this time. My W even let this info slip out when she was talking to me recently. I think WS's are driven to A's by depression or some other reason of unhappiness, but the guilt (even though it may not show) and constant lying cannot be good for self-esteem. I don't believe that anyone with high self-esteem can truly be happy with themselves. Maybe there were some good times that were had, but I don't think the A is something that WS's like to dwell on because of guilt and shame.

hoping4best, you are right on the money with your statement about WS's not being too happy with themselves... I'm only two mos into recovery so I haven't had any of the 3 I's. My wife has been pretty forthcoming with info so far (although I haven't decided, yet, how much I need to know). She told me the reason she had the affair was because I made her feel unwanted, unloved and worthless. The OM made her feel good about herself again.

I'm pretty sure I won't ask for intimate details (who needs them, anyway !?), but I WILL want to know when the A started and how, etc. If she tells me she doesn't remember, I'll let you know..

I RECEIVED "I CAN'T REMEMBER" SEVERAL TIMES MYSELF. THE THING I GET THE MOST IS "IT DOESN'T MATTER" DOES THE WH REALLY THINK THAT IT DOESN'T MATTER OR THEY JUST THINK IT SHOULDN'T MATTER TO THE BS. IT ALL MATTERS HOW CAN YOU FIX SOMETHING IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT BROKE? WOMEN DO HAVE BETTER MEMORIES THAN MEN. EVEN WITH THE GUILT AND SHAME I THINK THEY DO REMEMBER!!!!