I was inspired to post this by Kat1's post on RWC's thread. The debate on trust is one that rages on in my own mind, constantly..and I am interested to hear your takes on how the betrayer might help in restoring the betrayed's trust.<P>Right now I'm at a standstill. My H lied about several important details of his internet relationship, and when they came out, the newly, and shakily, rebuilt trust came crashing down again, and still hasn't returned. If anything, I felt doubly betrayed to have bought his first story. After that I believed very little that came out of his mouth, even though he has made a number of important changes:<P>- lets me look at his mail when I want<BR>- comes home on time, instead of 4 hours late every night<BR>- opens up about how he feels, negative or positive<BR>- tells me when any of his OWs contact him (this stopped a while back when he changed his email address)<P>As far as I can see, he's doing everything he can to restore trust, but I still don't trust him (it's been 8 months since I caught him, by the way). Are there other things he could be doing? What are some other ways of restoring trust? I'd love to hear your opinions/pointers in this area.<P>P.S. He thinks POJA is a bit of a joke, and doesn't really think much of MB principles, though tries to go along with me because he knows I stand by them.

I hate to say this but of course your H thinks POJA and the MB principles are a joke... people in a position of "control" in a relationship who can do what they want would find something that makes them "equal" a joke.<P>By playing it down and trying to discredit it (the most demeaning of all saying he will do it for _your_ benefit) tells me he isn't ready to be an equal partner to you yet.<P>- lets me look at his mail when I want<P>And deletes any offending mail the moment he reads it...<P>Catch him at a time when he hasn't checked his email for a long time and then ask to sit with him while he received NEW messages... this way he wont know WHAT is coming and hopefully you will get them before he has had a chance to delete them...<P>if he objects to this it exposes him as being deceptive in trying to "appear" trustworthy while simply being smarter.<P>- comes home on time, instead of 4 hours late <BR> every night<P>He has learned that late = bad so now he is more cautious about not playing on old habits<P>- opens up about how he feels, negative or <BR> positive<P>If he is willing to do the MB principles "For you" then why wouldn't he open up "For you"?<P>- tells me when any of his OWs contact him <BR> (this stopped a while back when he changed his email address)<P>Did you know the best way to cover something up is with the truth? If I were in his position and me being an intelligent person and if I wanted to "hide" it I would tell you ever now and then the same thing... make sure it isn't often enough to worry you, but often enough to sound "reasonable" and make him look like a saint. Then I would diminish telling you to the point where it "appears" it is all over...<P>Guess what?!?! You are secure (they have stopped) and he is now in the clear.<P>You wanted to know how to build trust again, it isn't as easy to do... and it is CERTAINLY harder than simply letting HIM decide what you can/cannot do to trust him.<P>If a person honestly WANTS to gain your trust again they wouldn't TELL you what you can do they would open it up completely for YOU to decide...<P>This would mean you ask him to do things such as call the OW out of the blue with you listening on another phone.<P>What this will do is either make him VERY nervous about talking to her and her being very confused about his behaviour (ie he is trying to make it sound like they are over and she will sound like it is still on)... if it IS over then the conversation will SOUND right.<P>You need to ask him to see some of the emails the OW has sent him... While someone tells you they have been contacted it doesn't tell you what was said... and hopefully might contain quotes from what you H said to her... If he uses the old excuse of "you don't need to know"... that means "There is stuff in there I dont want you to see because it incriminates me".<P>The bottom line is someone who genuinely and honestly WANTS another person to trust them they would NEVER get angry or upset and would NEVER refuse anything asked of them to prove it... why? Because to want you to trust them means they have done wrong, to have done wrong you feel guilt and to feel guilt you want to "fix" that guilt in any way it takes

LostSoul, I honestly don't think anything is still going on. I've snooped my butt off and have found no evidence that he's even been chatting on the Internet, with anyone, since early February.<P>He deleted the mails from that time at the time of disclosure. He showed me the ones they sent him after he "left", and says there have been none since. In July he changed his email address after repeated nagging from me. I do occasional "spot checks" after long weekends, and the like, and have never found a single email from anyone suspicious.<P>He has been so good, loving and sweet since this all came out I just can't believe that he's still up to anything. He's sat and listened to me scream, interrogate, moan and indulge in oceans of self-pity without ever getting upset with me. All he wants is me to trust him again, and I find it hard since he lied about some details of the relationship when I found out. He was trying to minimize it by witholding things, because he knew I would make a big deal out of the number of phone calls, etc. When confronted with the OW's story, he fessed up right away. I think he has since reformed, however.<P>He will not call the ex-OW because he doesn't want this all getting stirred up again. She was pretty distraught when he "broke up" with her and doesn't want to listen to her recriminations. He also claims not to have her number anymore, having deleted everything to do with her at the beginning of February. I had it at one time (sneaking) and asked him to do it, but he refused.<P>I should note here that he broke up with her on the Internet with me watching, and she freaked out. He watched her scream at him not to "abandon her" but said nothing, and quit the chat program. <P>Another thing, the OW and the others freely admit that he hasn't been in contact with them in months (checked this in a way that they don't know it was me checking). So I figure he really has reformed.<P>What concerns me now is how I can gain trust in him, when everything he is doing seems to be the right thing, but I still don't feel the trust.<p>[This message has been edited by Cristalle_in_NYC (edited September 13, 1999).]

Cristalle, in my opinion, the regaining of trust starts with a choice. The choice of givin our marriage a change to recover. Once this decision is reached and we're sure about it, then the hard work starts <BR>As long as our spouse is doing his best to work with us in the recovery process, and this is a consistent effort on his part, we have to believe that he means it. Unfortunately just because we want tings to work, it doesn't mean that we are from then on free of all doubts, anxiety , fear, and even insecurities about the whole thing. I know all about those, having gone trough the same stage. HOwever, we are then faced with a new choice: what kind of relationship do we want from now on? One based on trust honesty and communication? or one where we're foerever doubting what comes out of their mouths? Is the second option a relationship at all? Or a relationship worth keeping?In my opinion the answer is no, so, and since I already made the decision of giving mymarriage a chance. It's clear to me that I would have to opt for the other choice. The choice to trust.<BR>It is not only what your spouse has to do for you to trust him again, it is your choice to trust. It is definitely a differnt trust than the one we had before. AN informed trust that tells you ( both of you) that things can and will go wrong at times, and that's why couples should work in their marriage always, not only when problems occur. A tust that reminds us that meeting each other's needs, is extremelly important, and that some times life is ectic enough to let us forget the little things that help those needs to be met - creating the oportunity for problems to appear -.A trust that shows us that people can lie to protect themselves and the things they find important - sad but true - but those things hapen usually only when there is some sort of a problems no matter how small, so if we communicate with our spouses as soon as we find something that might be a problem than the rest as a good probability of not happening.<BR>Yes this approach can blow on your face. So does anyt other decision we make in any possible matter ( work, friendhip, etc.). <BR>Yes your spouse can lie to you again, but if by any chance we give up and start a new life with someone else, that person can do it as well. What do we do? Live in fear for the rest of our lives? Choose never to have a relationship again?<BR>The possibilty will always exist no matter what, but if you choose to work together chances are it won't happen.<BR>Your H is already doing most of what he can do on his side. And as I said, if you can see it's a consistent effort, and he complements that with a true desire to make it up to you, i suppose it's about time you make your choice to trust.<BR>This doesn't happen overnight, and it requires an effort on your part as well. However, when you realize trust is finally back , you might even be surprised that it has actually been there for a while until you noticed it. And suddenly your life will seem less complicated. It's a great feeling. I didn't notice it had happened untill I realized that I wasn't checking his cell at all for weeks in a row ( he decided to give it to me eveymorning after coming from work - he works nights - specially because the ow was still calling. He might have erased her # a couple of times, but mostly he would leave it there so I could see). ANd would talk to me about the call and his feeling regarding not only the call, but the ow as well.<BR>Let me also had, that although he did end up answering the emotional needs questionaire, he , like your H didn't really think much about this site, or Dr. harleys suggestions and even the POJA. That's just the way he is. He did however try to follow it since it was important to me. Now he still doesn't really like to talk about it, but agrees that all those things were necessary tools for our marriage to be back on track. But now is over one year after the afair started and almost a year since recovery started.<P>Anyway do think about this. Trust is a choice that you will have to make at some point, wainting for it to come to you takes way to long and might never appear by itself. You'll have to help it along.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>P.S. Lost soul,I apologize if I'm assuming something that is not so, but even though using the cover of logic and rational, you seem to be very angry and insecure.<BR> Thinking or expecting the worse of everything can't make anybody's life any easier and can be a mistake in itself. <BR>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<P>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 13, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited September 13, 1999).]

Thank you so much Kat1, what inspiring advice. I'm copying that off and pinning it to my wall, right next to my computer

You're welcome Cristalle. I happen to be proof that what I said does work, and helps. Went trough a lot of insecure days, just wondering if things were really over, or if maybe he was telling me one thing and doing another. Until it blew in my face. I thought I found proof that he was still contacting her. It was right there, in front of my eyes. Her SIL's phone number displayed on my H's cell. A number dialed by him. SO I confronted him. He kept saying he hadn't called.I kept showing him the display. He withdrew, I got mad. What a waste. After rememebring that I had been the last one to use the phone, something clicked. He still had thosephone #s on the memory. We had been looking for the instructions booklet to erase them, but didn't found it, and the numbers were kept in the memory. When I was going to make a call, while talking with him and some friends at the same time, I remembered I had pressed something and I had started calling some number. I didn't really pay attention to the number, just recognized it was not the one I wanted to dial, ended the call, and tried again. It was all done on automatic, so I didn't really pay attention. However when later, checking I found that phone number, and decided to lovebust like crazy. No wonder he kept saying he hadn't made the call. I had. I just rechecked the time the call has been made, and there it was, exactly at the time I was trying to make my call. I was the one who by mistake pressed the memory key for that number, and then end the call before someone answered because I noticed it was the wrong number. But since I was so focused on what had happened, and had not yet made an effort to trust him. I just expected the worse, and decided it was exactly what I got. <BR>I don't have to tell you that I apologized immediatly as I saw the mistake. But things kind of cooled down for a day or two. ANd allbecause I was not letting myself trust again. It was then that I though all this about the choices, and realized that if I didn't make an effort I would be waiting a long time until that trust would come back ( I'm a very patient person, but even I didn't want to wait for that long. )<P>In any case, if you're copying my post, please don't tell anybody about the typos. I think way faster than I type, and never check after, so my posts end up being a very bad show of mispelled and wrong words<BR> <BR>Take care, and keep posting<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I find this quite sad...<P>Cristalle, were you actually looking for advice? or just for someone to agree with you?<P>You said yourself you dont know if you can trust him, basically ignored what I said and the moment someone says something you agree with you decide to pin it on your wall.<P>It sounds very much like you had already decided your answer before even writing here and that all you wanted was SOMEONE to agree with you.<P>You defended him the whole way through your other reply and even after all that said "I dont know if I can trust him".<P>That doesn't make sense, and it certainly isn't logical...<P>Kat, angry is right Insecure is an interpretation of words... I would say cautious but I am sure you will keep using insecure ;-)<P>I am not sure I agree with you on always assuming the worst as being a bad thing. There are extremes in this...<P>Always assume good - You get hurt all the time<P>Always assume bad - people get upset you are so untrusting<P>Somewhere in the middle I am sure there is an answer... but I would NEVER just point blank trust someone again... its up to them to PROVE their trust... and doing this by deciding WHEN they are going to give you things isn't really trust.<P>Don't you think it better to at least make "sure" they are worth trusting before doing it again? A person feels cheated when their trust is betrayed... how do you think they feel when it is betrayed a second time? The pain is much worse than the first because the only person you have to blame now is yourself.<P>You have Cristalle EXACTLY the answer she wanted, the one she was waiting for... I thought this board was about thinking, sharing and getting advice on areas we are blinded to... this kind of thread makes me think that its just a place to come pat each other on the back and for us to get the support we need to ignore things that much easier.

There's nothing sad about it. I feel better, Kat1 helped me see the light, and now I have a path to follow as regards trust.<P>As for looking for someone to agree with me -- how did Kat1 agree with me? She merely pointed out the ways in which I might begin to trust my H again, and I thought they were not only cogent but something I personally had not thought of before. <P>If anyone agreed with me about NOT trusting, it was you, who basically counselled me to stay suspicious, and implied I had good reason to.<P>LostSoul, not that I have to defend myself to you, but I took Kat1's advice because it made perfect sense. There does come a point where you have to decide to make a leap of faith, and after 7 months of H's good behavior, I have decided to take that leap.<P>Maybe it's not logical to you, but it is possible for a betrayer to make all the right moves and still not rebuild trust completely. He has done everything he can, and yet I still did not trust him. That was my fear talking -- I was afraid that if I trusted him again he would destroy it again. But where am I, with that sort of thinking? Stuck. Every day, stuck in fear and suspicion. It's not a happy place to be.<P>What Kat1 is saying is that I must make that final choice -- to keep on being suspicious of every word that comes out of his mouth, or decide to believe him, and have peace.<P>I'm betting you're not a philosophy buff, so I'm going to set out a famous little (simplified, so phil majors please don't flame me) religious analogy here so you see what I mean.<P>Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician and philosopher argued for the existence of God in the following "wager":<P>1.Either God exists or He does not. <P>2.If there is no God, whether you believe in God or not, then there is no afterlife. <P>3.If there is a God, and you believe in God, you go to Heaven. <P>4.If there is a God, but you do not believe in God, you go to Hell. <P>5.By statements 2-4, if you approach belief as a wager, betting on God's existence is a win-draw proposal: either you gain eternal bliss or end up with nothing like all other players. <P>6.By statements 2-4, if you approach belief as a wager, betting on God's nonexistence is a draw-lose proposal: either you end up with nothing like all other players, or you suffer eternal hellfire. <P>7.Therefore, belief is the superior choice from a wagering perspective. <P>Now, before you flame me as a religious zealot, take a look at number 7. Then apply the whole thing to trust. If I choose to trust my H, I have everything to gain and little to lose - he may, in fact, be trutful now. What have I lost? But if I wager on distrust, I live all my days in fear and may have been wrong in the end anyhow. What have I got? Misery, and a ruined marriage.<P>Applying Pascal's wager to the trust conundrum makes perfect sense to me.<P>That's about all I have to say on the subject.<P>P.S. What's wrong with taking some advice and pinning it up, if it's the right advice? Am I to assume that all advice here is flawed and I will never find a good answer? I might as well stop posting then.<P>

Lost soul, if you want to call it caution, that's fine with me. I understand caution. I also try not to be overcautious, I can miss a lot of good things that way ( I can also make mistakes my way , but I'm conscient of that, and it's my choice. so I assume responsability for them).<BR>I agree with you that the balance is somewhere in the midle. And I'm also not talking about blind trust. That is what I had before, and see where it took me , I'm talking about an educated trust, that lets me enjoy my life and my relationship, while taking steps ( together ) to ensure that it won't happen again. I find that quite balanced, don't you?What I won't do is to look for deceipt or lies everywhere. Not only it won't take me anywhere, but it will make my life miserable. SO what if I make a mistake? I happen to think that when I have a choice - I chose to trust with plain knowledge that there's a chance I can get hurt if it ever happen again as opposed to have the affair coming out of nowhere without warning - I can deal with the consequences. But at least, I'm not living in hell everyday expecting the worse of my h, that happens to be making an effort to prove to me we can work together on this.<BR>I'm not minimizing pain, I' working with it to create something better. Shouldn't that be the idea?<BR>At the end of this month it will be one year since the affair ended. In all this time my H has been trying is best. For a while, I fought my own doubts and fear, and insecurity ( not caution, real insecurity ), for a while I kept looking for proof that he was lying instead of spending that energy in improving my marriage, for a while I spend hours concentrating on an affair that was over, instead of concentrating on improving my marriage. That got me nowhere. He was trying, I was either on a high when everything was normal, and on a bad low anything out of the routine happened, no matter how innocent. I would lovebust if he was minutes late, start pulling my hair if he had to change plans at last minute for anything, and we were starting to get on each others nerves even more than when the affair was on. I would talk no end about what had happened and almost obsessed over an affair that he wasn't even thinking about anymore. The only person that was keeping it alive was me. I was the one inviting the affair back into our lives by making it a ting of the present instead of the past. It wasnot logical, quite emotional in fact. <BR>SInce I had already decided I wante my marriage to survive, my only option was get rid of the "garbage".<BR>AM I saying with this that from now on I'm back on the stage where I think affairs are things that happen only to other people? Not at all, and in I'm glad I'm not. Because it's not true. affairs can happen to anybody, good and not so good people alike. AM I back to the stage where blind that I think my marriage is just perfect when we are actually not communicating or spending time together or even being parents more than a couple. Nope. I'm at the stage where I'm feeling more secure and self confident, knowing that not only wer're together, but we're also working together to keep each other happy thus preventing the need to be hapy with someone else. I still find it balanced.<BR>I did tell Cristalle that this choice can blow on our faces. Nothing is 100% without risk, but the odds are that when you are aware of what can happen and use preventive measures to avoid it it has less chance of happening.The alternative is living in a way that would not fulfill any needs, and would get one or the other ( or both ) extremelly frustrated with the relationship. For that, it would be better not to even try to rebuild.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Cristalle - When I was reading your post I felt like I could have written it myself. I have found myself in the same situation and was looking for some inspiring advice. The advice Kat gave was just what I needed. At first I just wanted things to be the way they were before the secrets and lies. But now I realize that I do not want back what we had, but rather something new that can be built from here. The pain is a crushing blow and like you I'd like to find a way to look at it in a postive way. We can start from here and get better. Its good to know we're not alone.