Dear Not So Sad Tiger,

So much of what you said is what I've heard before. Both my husband and a therapist have said the same. My husband was able to compartmentalize the whole thing. I know it may be hard for some to believe, but his affair was one without love or caring. It was one that was all about escape. He saw her, had sex and escaped all responsibilty. It was a bad habit that continued. The therapist explained it so clearly, but it still doesn't excuse it.

Fortunately, the day I actually found out was the day it was entirely over. It was so easy for my husband to end it after I found out. I just keep getting stuck with the fact that he was this other person for so long. Some days I really want not to be married. I think less of myself for staying with someone who has done this to me.

I admire you for working through this in your marriage. It would be incredibly difficult when emotions are involved. I think you are right about woman and affairs. I could never do what my husband did. Even when I was single, I would have to care for someone deeply before getting "involved".

Thanks for all of your advice and I wish you the best for you and you wife.

Marie B.,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a bad habit that continued. The therapist explained it so clearly, but it still doesn't excuse it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, there is no excuse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fortunately, the day I actually found out was the day it was entirely over. It was so easy for my husband to end it after I found out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very good thing. My WW, being 'in love' with her OM, was and is having trouble breaking away. The OM has helped alot, fortunately, getting fired and acting like a jerk. If he had played his hand better, he could have 'won' her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Some days I really want not to be married. I think less of myself for staying with someone who has done this to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is entirely up to you whether or not to stay married. No one would blame you if you left the marriage. Just let me say that instead of thinking less of yourself for staying, you will one day be very proud of yourself for trying to save your marriage in the face of what he has done. You can stand proud and tall!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I admire you for working through this in your marriage. It would be incredibly difficult when emotions are involved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you! For most men, including me, the sexual aspect is much more difficult to deal with than emotions. It has been simply a learning process for me to come to understand the emotional dynamics involved. It does hurt that she is 'in love' with him, but whatever messing around she did with him bothers me much more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are right about woman and affairs. I could never do what my husband did. Even when I was single, I would have to care for someone deeply before getting "involved".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guarantee you that I could have sex with another woman and it would not change anything about how I feel about my wife. I would not have to love the OW in any way. For men, it is simply a biological imperative, like breathing. We *have* to have sex. Regularly. Why do you think that prostitution is so popular?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for all of your advice and I wish you the best for you and you wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're welcome, and thanks! These are my amateur, personally biased psychological opinions and are not guaranteed!

You can get over this. It will just take time!

NSST

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Not So Sad Tiger ]</small>

Well, where to begin..... I guess at the beginning....

Though my H has admitted to 5 affairs over the 21 years we've been together (married 18), the one that causes me the most concern is the last one, that went on for 6 years. He's had 3 one night stands, and another affair, when our children were quite small, that lasted for about 6 months. For those, I'm sure the issue was all about sex. And low self-esteem as well, I'm sure. He needed to know that he was "important" and what better way to fill that need than to have 2 women looking after his needs!

About 8 years ago, my H had surgery for Chrone's disease, and ended up with an ostomy pouch. Around this same time, he was involved with starting up a business with a partner that caused him tremdous stress. It took him almost a year to recover. After that year, he took on a number of different positions, and was fired from all of the jobs he took. As well, during that period, most of his friends and associates were doing very well financially - this was during the growth period of the high technology industry.

So, 6 years ago, he met this woman at a soccer game that our children were playing. They chatted, he put his hand on her knee, and she didn't pull away. She asked him what he wanted, and he said an affair. Then, he invited her over to our home for tea. They kissed. Then, he invited her over again, and the affair began. She's married, with 2 children the same age as ours. Once the affair was out in the open, and she and I talked, she said she was looking for "something" because her children were growing up and didn't need her so much. (well, lets see, they were 9 and 10 then....not so old) As well, her husband has MS. The two of them wanted to be able to see each other more, and thought it would be a good idea to introduce our families - get together for dinners, etc. And, from there, it just got worse. My H would push for me to try to be more friendly with her- but I really never liked her. I was working full time, and didn't have enought time to spend with my friends- and didn't find her very stimulating, or interesting. She is Bahai, and honestly, we must have attended 3 or 4 Bahai events every year - at his insistence. I go to church as well, but could never get him to come with me...but that's another story.

So, as his attempts at finding a 9-5 job failed, he began to look for contract work, and work at home. He, of course, needed an assistant, and who better than this "friend" who was at home all day as well. It was a perfect set up for them - I travelled a lot with my job, and that left the two of them free to do whatever they wanted. But, what it meant was he wasn't making any money - or at least not much. So, I became the major breadwinner for the family, and he played with his friend. And, when I would bring her up as an issue - it was always the same story. She's just a friend, you know I'm not good with filing, paperwork, etc, and you're not here. I'm trying to get a job-get off my back - you're causing me stress. If I'd ask about bills, he'd get very defensive. And so, the line of credit grew and grew. He spent as if he was working full time - he projected the impression of a man who was successful - but really, he was a huge drain on our finances. My last year at home, I was able to pay off the line of credit, and so when I moved out, he was debt free. But, he kept the family house and contents telling me I didn't do anything to "earn" them. Since then, in the 2 years we've been separated, he's run his debt load up again as he's not had a paying job, but is still living as though he has an income. The thing that made me the craziest was that we were living off a line of credit, and he went out one day and bought himself a pair of $25 boxer shorts. There was just no excuse for that!

Back to the affair - so, as you can imagine, I got to see the two of them together, a lot. And, I could see the affection between them. He tells me now that he never loved her - but I don't believe that for a second. It was so evident in how he looked at her. His voice would change when he answered the phone and it was her. No - he loved her a lot. She was everything I wasn't she's Persian- dark skinned, accent, wears lots of make-up, hair's always in place, short skirts, no underwear - very adventerous in bed. I'm blond, wear casual clothes, underwear, very little make-up and there are some things I don't like to do because they hurt. She had been an engineering student, and had to quit because the guys kept coming on to her. I was a home economist - not at all technical. He would tell me all the time about how smart she was. Well, he had to be in love - because she's not smart at all.

I moved out 2 years ago after we had another fight about this woman. He again assured me that there was nothing going on between them. Our closest friends would tell me that I was nuts to thing there was anything going on. A friend of hers would assure me that she would "NEVER' sellp with someone not her husband - she couldn't as it was forbidden in their religion. And, so I still believed him. He said he wanted to reconcile, and would if only I would change. I wasn't willing to change - because I knew that whatever I did, would never be enough for him. So, for the 2 years of our separation, I waited for him to realize that I wasn't a terrible person, and she spent 2 years convincing him I was. She wanted more than anything for him to leave me and build a life with her. He claims he could not have loved her, because he never, ever intended on leaving me for her.

Last May, after him having told me that he wasn't going to be "friends" with her anymore, I saw on his phone log that she had called 3 times in one week. I decided at that point I was going to go on with my life - without him. It wasn't going to be such a stretch - I had moved, it was really more like breaking up with a boyfriend at that point - but one I'd been seeing for 20 years.

In March, I had met a man and we had become friends. I knew he wanted it to be more, but until May, I wasn't able to do that, as I was still committed to the marriage. But, once I decided to move on, I began to date. Well, this didn't sit very well with H. My new friend lives 4 hours away from me, so we couldn't just do dinner. I invited him up for a weekend. H said "call him right now and tell him he can't come up". I said "tell me the kids and I can come home". To which he replied - I can't give you any guarantess. So, my friend came up for the weekend.

When the weekend ended, H wanted to talk. And what he wanted to tell me was about the affairs and in particular this last one. He ended it with her that week, and the 3 of us sat down and had a long talk. They still spoke a bit over the next few weeks - I was not willing to rebuild, and he wanted to. She would keep calling to tell him why he should pick her, and how could he even consider wanting me back. At that point, I decided that it was time for her H to know the truth. For me, finding out the truth was such a huge relief. My first thought was "OMG - I wasn't crazy all those years". I though he deserved to know as well, as he must have felt many of the same things I did. Well, H got to her first, and she came clean with her H. That, then caused my H concern, because she had been claiming that her H beat and raped her on a regular basis. My H was worried about her saftey. At any rate, it's been about 5 weeks now since he's talked to her - though she is still calling.

Did she love him? More than anything. She was willing to risk of a life of eternal damnation (in her faith) to be with my H. She wanted to build a life with him. He claims he was honest with her and told her that was never going to happen, but who would stay in a relationship for 6 years and not hope for a future? That's one of the big things I don't understand But, there are so many more...

How could he have lied to me for 6 years? I did ask him point blank a couple of times if he was sleeping with her. He has ofter replied "I've never lied to you before, and I'm not going to start now".

How could he have seen the pain I was in, and not care?

How could he believe her when she would tell him I must be sleeping with my co-workers when I traveled on business and then not believe me when I would tell him that she was trying to take over my life?

How could he sleep with her in our bed, on our furniture? How could he let it get to the point where I felt like an intruder in my own home? He allowed her to "reorganize" the kitchen for us one day - because she thought it was too cluttered.

And, I guess the big one right now is how can he claim he loved me for that whole period, when he was so obviously in love with someone else?

Then, there are the questions about going forward? How will I know if he's thinking of her when he's with me? Will she become in his memory this "saint" of a woman who was everything he wanted, and had to give up for me? How will I ever trust him again, or be able to believe what he tells me - he has shown himself to be a very smooth, easy liar.

And, you, like me, must have to deal with the memories - did he want to have spent those holidays with me, or was he thinking of her the whole time? What awful things did he have to say aobut me to stop her from being jealous of the time we were together? We're anniversay celebrations, Valentines Day celbrations he looked forward to, or dreaded? What lies did he tell me, and what lies did her have to tell her?

My H apologized to the OW for "taking" 6 years of her life, when she could have been looking for somone who could offer her a future. Well, you know what - she had a choice. She knew what she was doing, and did it willingly. He took 6 years of my life and because he never intended to leave me, doens't feel like he owes me the same apology!

There is so much I don't understand, and so much I guess I'll never understand. But, I think you and I are in a unique situation - I do think the lenght of the affair makes it so much harder to accept, and so much harder to forgive. I keep telling him that at any point, when our marriage was going well (and we had good periods during the 6 years), he could have said "this isn't right and we'd better stop". But, he never did.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Carol

Dear Not So Sad Tiger,

From everything I have learned over the past nine months, the same thing keeps coming up. Men can have sex that means nothing but just sex. I guess some woman can also. I am just not one of those woman. That is what makes it more difficult for me to understand.

I appreciate your comment about being proud having tried to save my marriage. I guess your right about that. I just don't feel that way at the moment.

My husband has explained the sex pretty much like masterbation. He needed the release, and she was there, ready and willing. It was very easy. He was sooooo stupid then.

It's funny how men and woman are different. You said it's harder for you to deal with the physical than the emotional part of the affair. For me, it's the opposite. Thank goodness I don't have to deal with an emotional connection. I don't think I would survive that.

I am glad for you that the OM got fired and is acting like a jerk. That will help your wife see him in a different light. She may realize it was an infatuation and not love. I think she will come to realize how deeply you love her and how close she came to almost losing you.

If she hasn't already, maybe it would be good for her to read some of the posts here. My husband doesn't post, but has read specific one's that I point out. It has helped him to understand what I am dealing with and to realize the importance of patience through recovery.

Thank again and I loved your remark about your posts not coming with a guarantee. That made me laugh and believe me, I need, (we all need), as many laughs as possible these days! Take care.

Dear Carol,

I really don't know what to say. I am amazed that you have been able to hold it all together after hearing your story.

My husbands affair was just the opposite as far as the relationship to one another. They usually met briefly a her house around lunch evey now and then. They had sex and then went back to work. They did go to a hotel a few times. The last time was when I was away. He never brought her to our home.

I think it's good you have allowed yourself to move on. Right now it sounds as if your husband is jealous. It's funny how it's ok for them look elsewhere and lie about it. Maybe this is what he needed to open his eyes. Maybe he will now realize what is important and change. Hopefully you will have a clearer picture of what your future holds with or without your husband.

I wish I had some answers to your questions. Heck, I am having a hard enough time with a question about why so long? All I can say is that my husband was selfish and very stupid for a long time! Sometimes I really want to hate him, but that's just not in me. I quess that is why I have so much anger at times about this whole mess.

I am ahppy for you that you have the strength to move ahead. You will be ok no matter what the end result is. Take care.

I'm not sure of the definition of long when it comes to affairs. It is a bit like...how long is a piece of string ?????
At the end of the day, whether it is 1 year or 10 years it is still an A. The act is still the same.
My H's A lasted 1 year and for me that seemed a long time and I can understand that 5 years would definately seem like a long time. If the OP was the true meaning of the A then I think that your H would have gone by now.
That is hope in its self for recovery that you are still together.
In time the length of the A will become less important. It does take time though.
Give yourself time to heal !!!!
All the best
Daisy

Dear Daisy,

Thank you. You are right about the length of the affair becoming less important as time goes on. It still bothers me, but not as much as it did in the beginning. The actual affair itself is the main concern. Actually, I have many concerns right now. Some have to do with the affair and others have nothing to do with it. I have to really put things into perspective. I expressed some of my thoughts in a thread I called "One life to live". I have learned the hard way about putting things into perspective.

Thanks again and I hope things are going well for you.

Marie,

My H had a 4 year A and his too was escape-based. When I first found out I couldn’t stand the idea of forever having the label “a woman who’s H cheated on her for 4 yrs”…even if that label was only in my head.

But having come through the ordeal and looking back, I am so thankful for my H’s persistence. He actually Plan A’ed me back into the M because I wanted out so bad. Now I see that a BS that endures rather than runs can actually hold their head up high. Anyone can run at the first sign of trouble.

Like yours, my H ended his A the day I found out and never looked back. Here’s an excerpt from a post I did a couple months ago that I thought you might find interesting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Kat1974’s story:
It’s about a prisoner who is thrown into a deep cave with a month’s worth of food and water, and is told that there is a way out of the cave, and if he can find it, he’ll be free to go. He keeps trying to pile up rocks toward the hole at the top of the cave where he can see light coming from. But there’s nowhere near enough rocks. He dies, and they open up the cave, and he’s lying within three feet of a tunnel that leads through the hill and out the other side. He was looking to the light he couldn’t reach, for freedom, when the pathway out was THROUGH THE DARKNESS.
************************************************

Excellent story Kat.

One of my biggest struggles was understanding how he could be in an A with the same woman for FOUR years and NOT have any withdrawal or fog around her after he’d risked EVERYTHING to be with her.

He told me that once he’d crossed that line there was no strong "pull" to turn back. The damage was already done. Should he quit seeing her, he’d either have to tell me the truth and probably lose me (worst possible outcome – last option) or he’d still be living a lie by keeping the secret from me. Since telling me was not an option, that meant that whether the A continued or not he’d be living a lie. He didn't want to hurt her either even though long ago the attraction was over. He’d been piling up rocks like crazy trying to find a way to get to the light again rather than risking going into the darkness (unknown). His words were “I spent countless amounts of time trying to figure out a win for everyone involved”. Finally, upon my discovery he was FORCED into the darkness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For my H it was a huge relief to be able to stop trying to pile those rocks.

You're doing great Marie. You're coming here and sharing your feelings rather than ignoring or denying them. That is a key step in the right direction for you right now.

E_C

Marie B......
I read your post 'one chance to live' !! It has been a hard road for you, you have incredible strength and courage. With what you have been through, something good will come out of it.
The bad things that happen to us happen for a reason. Why it happens never seems to be answered quick enough, but meanwhile we grow and learn.
I too was suspiscious of my H's A. I also saw it coming. But as real as it seems to you, you think, no..no...surely not.
I also expressed my concerns/ suspiscions and was told that I was crazy, needed help. I think I really did go crazy for a while.
My H also was newly stuck in a job he hated, wanted to change careers. Worked when he felt like it ,the income was unreliable and never enough to support a family. He was depressed.
Meanwhile I was doing a 40-50hr week in a management role, busting my chops so we could live in a way we were accustom.
I missed out on a lot of our sons baby/toddler years because of this. I can never get that back.
All the stress & pressure of this life I was living broke my spirit.
It got to the stage where I could never have helped my H with sorting out his life and he was in no frame of mind to help me. His answer to his/our problems was an A and me well I would never have had time for that.
In hind-sight we could have avoided so many things but no-one gives you an instruction manual on your life.
The A was a wake-up call and it has turned our life around. We are still in recovery and we still have a way to go but month by month I see a signs and changes for the better.
I think I went off on my own tangent a bit. oops.
Marie.B...My thoughts are with you and hang in there!!
Daisy.

Dear Extremely Confused,

It's always nice to hear from someone with a similiar situation. It's nice to know I'm not alone, although that means others are suffering as well. I'm sorry that you too are going through this.

I can really relate to your story about the man in the cave. My husband aslo explained it that way. He said once the act was committed, there was no turning back. There was the fear of what I would do. Then, for him, it just became a bad habit. He was so relieved when I finally found out.

I think those who have affairs are basically very weak people. They are not good at coping with day to day pressures. Of course, not all those who are unfaithful are weak, but most seem to be.

Your words have given me a nice lift to start the day. Thank you.

Dear Daisychic,

Sorry about the title of my last post. It was close anyway. I'm glad you found it. I do believe from every negative comes a postive. I think, if I've kept score right, I should be getting a truck load of positives real soon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's hard to believe that the person who loves you could do this. That they can actually turn into a person you don't know. How could they be so mean as to try to make us think we are crazy?

You are a very strong person. It's hard to work a full time career, take care of a home and have small children. You should feel good about yourself for holding it together.

Part of what is so hard for me is that my husband started his affair before my life went on a rollercoaster ride. I can't help but think it would have been easier for if he was "there" for me. It's also hard for me to accept the affair continuing during that period. Oh well, he was just really screwed up big time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for your response and best wishes to you.

MarieB,

Thanks for your reply. You made me smile "at myself". I didn't realize until I read what you wrote that I hadn't mentioned that I'm not suffering anymore. After d-day I thought it was the end of the world and I'd never survive the pain. But I've won that battle now.

It just made me snicker to myself when I read your reply because the words that went through my mind were "Humpf...the biggest accomplishment of my life and I'm at a point now where I even forget to mention it." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you Marie, for making MY day.
E_C

Dear E_C,

It's a good feeling to know we can all learn from and help one another. You are right about this being your biggest accomplishment. Its' a HUGE accomplishment for any BS who can get past the betrayal. I am glad things are working out for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />