Hi everyone,

I was just reading another thread and someone asked the question: Is he worth it? This somehow got me thinking.
While I was washing the dishes I was sorta having a "flashback". I had a few things going through my mind.

My H is a very calm easy-going guy. I'm more the thinker and the "worrier".

It abit difficult for me to explain this, but I'll give it a try.

After many discussions I have came to understand that my H needs to feel understood, he needs to feel admired, he needs romance and sex, he enjoys just to feel happy and relaxed. He wants to feel taken-cared of and noutoured. He wants a happy relationship and he enjoys me being happy. He loves being teased and sexually aroused and he loves it when I start.
It turns him on when I'm sexually aroused and when I tell him this. He enjoys when I start to talk romantically with him. He loves it when I tell him beautiful things and when I express how happy I am. He enjoys seeing me happy and energetic like I was way before his affair.
As I'm saying, he's enjoying this all and it really makes his life happy. I know that he really loves me and is truely happy.

But slowly I'm feeling like a complete "giver". He always tells me that I just always seem to find the right words, the words that he himself cannot express.
He tells me that my fantasy is overwhelming and really turns him on, he loves this. He tells me that he never knew me this way and it is sad that it took an affair for him to find this out.

But he tells me that he feels that his life is now the best he can ever imagine and that OW was deperate and just looking for someone that could offer her a pleasent life. He told me that the things she was saying were just to please him and make him feel happy. He was enjoying this at that time and he didn't have to put much effort into the affair other than being available and a good listener.
Ow was doing the same things as I was. Not all but pretty much the same and he was enjoying.
She was buying him all sorts of presents, he didn't. He doesn't do this for me either, only once in awhile.
She put in all of her effort and energy into this affair and wasn't aware that my H isn't the type of man that intaites (starts off) with these kinda things.
He never starts a discussion about romantic things, nor does he suggest having sex in the craziest places. He participates and never turns me down and he really enjoys this but he never suggests these kinda things.
He always tells me that he doesn't have that great of a fantasy to suggest these kinda things but he loves them.

Now my original question is "why" do we fuss so much about a man that enjoys life and enjoys the things that we are willing to "give"?

I know my H and he has always been this way. Most of the time I don't want him to change but today I'm sorta mad!!! He is so self-secure and he feels that he doesn't need to do these things, he feels that his personality is enough to make me feel aroused and passionate.

I'm sure that if OW would of known this, she would of dropped him very fast because she was complaining to my H that OWH was this way too!!!!!!!
My H was complaining that I wasn't doing any of these things to make him happy.

I had always done these kinda things for him to make him happy, but at one point of our relationship, I just felt "sucked" and "sad". I couldn't give him this anymore without getting anything back from his side. I was the complete "giver". My H was the "taker".

When he had his affair he found someone again that was the "giver" so that he could relax again and be the "taker".

Now I'm feeling like this again, I'm giving and he's taking. Can someone help me out???

Gosh, he knows that I need this too but I don't want to pressure him. I'm just missing "passion" at the moment! I'm missing something and I don't know how to explain this to him without sounding as if I'm nagging or telling him what to do.

I think I'm maybe just having a bad day. But I'm missing something and I don't know how to get this over to him without LBing.

I don't want to tell him: You don't do this and you don't do that....................I know that if I just do the things that I would want him to do, he will "take" and enjoy but he will not start!!!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

bb

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: blondblossom ]</small>

As a man who sounds like your husband, let me try to give you my point of view.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He participates and never turns me down and he really enjoys this but he never suggests these kinda things.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'...never turns me down...'

That is something to think about. How many women out there can say the same thing? I would suspect very few. When I try to initiate SF and get turned down, it is very, very humiliating to me. If I get turned down enough times, I don't want to feel that pain anymore, and won't try to initiate again. Men want it ALL the time, for the most part, and almost NEVER turn down a woman's advances. Obviously, it is different for women, and a considerate, sensitive man does not want to force himself onto a woman who does not want to have SF at that time. There is no 'switch' that women can turn on or off. We can try to be romantic or whatever does the trick for you, but does not always work. The bottom line is, guys like me wait until the signals from our woman are quite clear that they want SF. Don't feel like you are a 'giver' in that situation. I know it is tough for you, one of my WW's problems with me is that I don't initiate much anymore. I simply got tired of getting turned down, or feeling like I was forcing myself onto her.

I am always happy and ready to have SF. It is up to you women to let us know one way or another that you are ready. If you left it up to us, you would never leave the bedroom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That is my point of view only, so take it for what it is worth!

If you have any suggestions on how a man could initiate without being too pushy, please let me know! I'll try not to take it personally when I get rejected!!

ST

The original BB:

Although ST makes a VERY good point about initiating SF, I feel much like he does, that is not the only issue. Clearly, he is NOT fulfilling YOUR needs in a way that is satisfactory for you, which is all that matters.

Even if you've done the EN questionnaire thing before, would you do it again? Steve said to me that we should do these Qs every few months anyway, as we change, our moods and needs change.

That may be a non-LB way to bring it up again, and see if he's open to listening to your needs and doing something about them.

I don't know your whole story, so I can't really judge, but am I far off the mark in thinking that you did most of the work to get him back and he hasn't? Maybe you "adjusted" yourself to what he needed to get him back, but he really hasn't? And now you're starting to feel like this is not enough for you.

Asking for what you want is NOT nagging. It sounds like your the type of person who feels guilty for asking for what you want. It takes one to know one. I was/am that way too. Get over it!

Maybe try having BOTH of you sit down and fill out the EN's again. That way you will let him know it is a two-way street and that you are willing to meet his needs BUT you have needs too.

What helps me is to try and look at the big picture. I say to myself: are things different overall than they were pre-affair? Is my H actively/consistantly showing me a different behavior with words AND actions? I may let a day go by but NOT a week...thats too long. As long as I see he is making a different effort that is fine. Even if he isn't where I want him to be, I do see growth and progress.

Your post is full of how well you know H and OW and even OWH BUT what specifically do YOU want in your marriage? If you don't know, figure it out THEN ask him for it. Don't say: you don't do this and you don't do that..say something like: I would feel more loved/secure in our marriage if you __________________(fill in the blank). For me it was a kiss goodbye in the morning, or encouraging words. If you specifically ask for what you want and he is unwilling to give it that is a warning sign in your marriage. If he was never "this way" before and it led to an Affair, then you DO want him to change. Don't allow your marriage to be the same way it was before the affair and expect that it won't lead to an affair again. You have to be willing to do the hard things - you asking for what you want is hard because you can feel rejected when he doesn't give it to you. So we would rather not ask, BUT we didn't ask before the Affair and it lead to an affair. Am I making sense to you? I'm trying to.

There's nothing wrong in GIVING per se... but not RECEIVING is. So: which are your top ENs which your H doesnt satisfy, which are the behaviours which you do expect?
You found out what it takes to please him... help him to understand what it takes to please you.

Blondblossom

It was errie reading your post because I could have written it myself. My husband is the same way. If on a given day I am not giving and attentive, he acts as if we have never had wonderful days. In fact, most of our days in the past few months have been. The only time they weren't was when we were going through our losses and I was sick during pregnancies.

At this time, I feel I have let him down because I was withdrawn when I was sick and since then I have been trying to be as giving as I can be to build the trust back up to where it was before. This is difficult because I am not certain he has adhered to no contact. He says he has, he says he would never cheat on me, but my H thinks that internet infidelity is not cheating.

I try to look at the positive things. He has greatly reduced the time he spends on the computer online. I know he is doing this for me. At the same time he is very critical of me, and seems to feel like I owe him something for giving up the OW. I am willing to be the best wife I can be, but am not doing this because I feel I owe him something for giving up the OW. I do this because I love him. On bad days I keep trying to remember this. Some days though, it seems that he is insatiable in his needs. I am hoping it is an adjustment period and continue to show him that I can consistently be there for him. I think if he would go to therapy he might realize that he has some impossible standards. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in your frustration. Its not easy trying to figure out what they want when they cannot articulate it fully. It sounds to me like you are doing your best. I hope your H will also realize how consistently you are there for him. I think the OW will eventually get tired of constantly having to give as well. My h says that I shouldn't worry about internet "friends" because they come and go. I am his for real. It seems that even he knows that people do not just stay to give give give. I guess I dont have any answers but I wanted you to know you are not alone.

Luci

BB,
Have you ever read Chapman's THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES? It is similar to HNHN. But maybe because there only 5, instead of 10, it was a little simpler for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . It explains that different people show & receive love in different ways.

For example, quality time together makes me feel loved. My H's language is service. So, if he's caulking the windows, he feels he is doing something loving for the family...but...for me, if he's caulking windows, he's not with me, not talking to me, so it isn't my language. Honest, I started the lawn sprinklers, he came home and said, "who's earning my brownie points by watering the lawn?" It's almost funny. I just saw the lawn drying out...

But the way I use this knowledge is even if he doesn't speak my language, if I see him speaking his language, I can recognize it as love.

When I need my language spoken, I usually have to arrange it, but it makes a lot more sense for me to say "Hey, I need some time (or whatever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )with you." than to stew or get angry about what he's not doing, the ENs he's not meeting.

You know what your H is like, you explain it very well, work with his strengths and yours. We all have some glitches. Dr. Laura Schlesinger says something like "If you married an elephant, don't get mad because it isn't a bunny."

Something you said caught my attention:

He is so self-secure and he feels that he doesn't need to do these things, he feels that his personality is enough to make me feel aroused and passionate.

From your description, your husband and I are remarkably similiar. As I go through this painful learning process with my WW, I have begun to realize the pitfalls in being too self-secure.
In reality, he may not be self-secure at all. In fact, he may suffer from abnormally low self-esteem. Any small thing you do bolsters his self-esteem. At the same time, he has manifested a larger self image to protect himself. He believes simply existing and doing what's necessary to bring home the bread each night is enough to warrant your love. It's a weird paradox. On the one hand, if you bail on him, his self-esteem has long ago decided you could and would do that, and he has bolstered his defenses to prepare for that eventuality. Ask yourself: Has he ever said out of the blue "You're going to leave me someday?" Or has he implied that you will have an affair, and left the control of that impulse strictly to you? Sort of "Follow my rules and you won't get in trouble" approach? If so, then it's a good bet his self-esteem is pretty low. If you follow his rules, he's safe. If you don't, he can always say "I told you so. You're just not worth my time."
I know I did this. I believed bringing home the bread was enough for the woman, and frankly, she did a lot to keep that theory going.
But the point here is this: It's not about his motivations. You are in the problem-solving mode. Your marriage seems like it's past the early pain and you are into recovery. I suggest you gently tell him what you want. If you have formalized some sort of time to share these thoughts, do it in a non-threatening way.
Best way? Appeal to his sexuality. "Hey babe, know what gets me hot? When you..." whatever the need is. It could be washing dishes or taking out the trash or wearing a Fireman suit to bed. I know if my wife were to tell me it turns her on when I rake the leaves, I'd be out there morning, noon and night.
As you proceed along this line, you can gently peel that onion back and peer into his self-esteem issues. I'll bet he's not nearly as secure as you think. He's the reverse, he's covering up and he simply does not know how to proceed with filling you ENs.

Thoughts from a guy.

Hi everyone,
sorry but I haven't got much time. I've read every single response and when I have the time I will write back.

By the way, my H did take a tiny little step and "initiated" something that became very fun!
But I'll tell you guys later on in a more detailed letter!

You guys are great and I'm so grateful that I am able to talk to you about these things, it helps soooooooooooo much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

hugs for you all
bb

blondblossom,

After looking at the other copies of this thread something struck me in one of your replies in Emotional Needs.

blondblossom said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
When I "Start" there are no inhibitions from either side. He will tell me that he loves me being this way and it really turns him on. All I want is for him to "initiate" and let me enjoy from the beginning on. He knows that I am open for almost anything, he knows that his wishes never offend me, so forget that.

I wanna feel like the "taker". Does this make sence?????????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">David Schnarch talks about something like this in "Passionate Marriage". He calls it "Doing" and "Being Done".

When you "do" someone it's about what you want. You are in control. It shows your partner something very personal about you. What if they don't like what you are doing? Maybe it's too extreme/beyond their comfort zone or maybe it's staid and boring. Either way the "doer" opens themselves up for possible rejection, they have to be strong enough to handle it.

"Being done" is the other side of the coin. It's about letting your partner show you who they are, and not interferring- giving up control and judgement.

You seem to be able to "do" your H, and he seems able to allow himself to be done. But he is unable to "do" you. Maybe he feels some sense of "competition" and doesn't think that he can reach your level of novelty, or excitement, and doesn't want to disapoint you. -- That would be my guess. The male ego thing runs both ways - fear of being rejected, and fear of disapointing.

Unfortunately, Schnarch's comments about making your partner change are much like MB --ie., you can't. Schnarch thinks most people won't do scary things unless they have to. If your H thinks his marriage is threatened by his passivity (and wants to keep the M) maybe he'll try to address it.... but, if he's comfortable, probably not.

I'm sure I'm doing a bad job of relating Schnarch's ideas to your situation, if this sounded useful at all you should probably get the book and look at was he has to say yourself-- I found his book to be "the" most helpful after the MB material.

-Jeffers