............let me paint you over, so I can't see myself at all.

The human mind is truely an amazing thing - especially when it's been scrambled by aliens.

In the wake of recent disasterous communications with my XW, I decided to be more "classy" when she called me yesterday. She was reporting about a problem <son> had with a math test (he is with her this week). He didn't do well, then lied to her about it and actually threw the test away before she could see it.

This is an approximation of a portion of our conversation. The words are probably not exactly accurate - I can't remember exactly what she said - but the context and meaning ARE accurate:

Her: I can't believe he would lie so blatantly! He should know we won't tolerate lying!

Me: I agree. (What I want to say: "Duh!!!! Are you listening to what you're saying?")

Her: We have to be able to convince him that lying or cheating is wrong and it's worse than the test result!

Me: I couldn't agree more. (What I want to say: "AAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!")

I was very tempted to offer that the best way to communicate these values was by example and by expressing remorse for our own past discretions, but I knew it would fall on deaf ears - or bounce off the painted-over mirror. Maybe, just maybe, by confronting this problem with our son she will allow the paint to peel off little by little.

I tell this story not to seek advice, but to share with others coping with their WS's hypocrisy an example to help you feel you're not alone. This trait is so universal among WSs that it's downright spooky. There's nothing we can do about it. Don't try to hold up a mirror to their face. As long as the Mothership has control, they will not see. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."

Hi WAT,

My wife and I were talking the other day about a friend of mine. He isn't married and has two girl friends...that don't know about each other...

My DW mentioned how she thought it was really "horrible" for my friend to have two girl friends at once... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> said that she felt sorry for the girl friends because they each thought that they were his "special" girl.

I didn't say anything... just looked at my DW with a puzzeled look on my face... she imedately recognized what she'd said <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> , and then appologized and told me that she loves me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just goes to show that even when you're well along the road to recovery, there will be things from the past that pop up from time to time... I'm just thankful that I can now 'react' in a more positive way when they come up.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Worthatry,

This is my first reply, although I have lurked here for over 1-1/2 years. I just wanted to say to you that you are a one of kind person and I pray that God will bless you in all of your lifes endeavors. All that you have shared along with your responses to others have really been a sense of encouragement to me. I pray that you will continue to allow God to get the glory by continuing to impart wisdom that you have gained through your sufferings in your ministry of marriage.

Wisdom rules

In case you are interested in part of my story I reposted it unt Just Found Out. The subject title is: 2nd round, affair never ended

WAT,
I think you handled it GREAT! Did you bite your tongue completely off??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You did better than I would've... that's for sure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Perhaps it's better for the mirror to remain painted over a bit, or else it might crack from the ugliness of deceit and shame. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

This is a good story, and I'm glad you posted it. It's definitely a clear example of WS logic.

You are an amazing person, and I know that your son will gain much wisdom from you, and your example. I hope that one day, you can witness some clear-thinking from your XW. Non-fog from a former WS is such a pleasant sound. But if you never hear it, be satisfied and fulfilled in your own integrity and honor.

Faith1

WAT:

Those quotes top anything my W has ever said 2 me in the past 1000 years (and we're only in our 40s <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )! But she has said similar things. I recognize them as fog-related, so I ignore them. I don't remember them well, because I'm trying not 2 vilify her even a little right now, but I sometimes wish I had written them down. They're doozies!!

""Denial ain't just a river in Egypt."" - I intend 2 steal this one and use it in every day conversation!

Worthatry,
I can certainly relate!!! H & I have had to have several conversations lately with my twelve year old son about lying. Several times H has said to him, "When are you going to learn that lying is unacceptable and will not be tolerated?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Of course he's right and this is certainly something a person should be taught as a child. (Obviously someone failed in getting this across to my H.) Maybe he's finally learned his lesson about lying and wants to spare my child these same hard lessons, but I can't help but feel to some degree he's being hypocritical when I here him speak so strongly to our son on this subject. Just wanted to say I certainly know where you're coming from on this.

WAT;
I laughed out loud when I read this...it was deja vu!

My W and I had an almost identical conversation about a slightly different subject, but she said EXACTLY the same things! Bizzare! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Dave,

She never changes.

Dave,

I didn't know that you were a poet!!!!

Ditto, Sing. Don't expect the mother ship to return her brain.

WAT,

I may be the lone voice in the wilderness here, but I am more concerned about your son than your WW....

FAILING a math test, or just didn't do well? Which is it? One is more serious than the other, obviously. (Is this his normal level of achievement?)
LYING to WW about his math test?
Throwing it away before she can see it?

WAT, please understand I've been concerned about your son for awhile now.

He's exhibiting a LOT of extreme behavior...in my mind anyway (from the limited "snippet" of it I hear from you), he is exhibiting a lot of anger.

Is he seeing a therapist? I'm thinking the long-range effects of his mother's "extreme" behavior is going to cause long-lasting damage.

I'm only asking cause I'm concerned.

worthatry...

i was going to use "mirror, mirror on the wall" as the title of a thread also... i can't make eye contact with myself in the mirror... for me it's guilt, shame and lack of self forgiveness...

does your xw have any paint to spare?...

oaktown...

Dave, I know exactly how you feel. It's the same way I feel when my H gets to ranting and raving about someone lying to him: "I can't stand it when somebody lies to me." "That's a lying SOB." "One thing I hate is a liar." "Why do folks think they can get away with lying?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Worthatry!
Very interesting wish we could all find out just where this "secret" school of FOG TALK is situated maybe it's like in the harry potter books! might b a train station somewhere that they all meet up at & then walk thru a wall to get there! I bet i even know it's name "FOGWARTS"
Sorry just a bit of my warped humour (it's what keeps me going nowadays!)
My WH has always bought our boys up to never lie they are much older tho (25 & 27) well of course WH was lying thru his teeth thru all of this A & he still is apparently but i'm not interested in the alien talk I just hear it back thru others & I don't even bother to make a comment now. The first thing our eldest son said when he found out was but dad always bought us up to never lie! I don't know if he relayed it to my H but I sure hope he did.
Your little boy is probably rebelling at this situation that he finds himself in (not sure how much he knows) but to throw away the evidence it seems to be he is scared of the ramifications of what he sees to be his "failure" to do well.
Children pick up a lot that we dont realise maybe if you could sit him down & explain that it's not how well he does it's the fact that he trid his best & you are proud that he is your son. hope this helps & good luck...

Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>.....

The human mind is truely an amazing thing - especially when it's been scrambled by aliens.

...XW,.... was reporting about a problem <son> had with a math test (he is with her this week). He didn't do well, then lied to her about it and actually threw the test away before she could see it.

Her: I can't believe he would lie so blatantly! He should know we won't tolerate lying!</strong>

Suggested response: Yea, me too!! Can't believe it. He needs to stop hanging around such people who would rather live in denial than face the truth. Do you know anyone S associates with who is like that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<strong>Her: We have to be able to convince him that lying or cheating is wrong and it's worse than the test result!</strong>

Suggested response: Yes, you must try hard to convince him. I'll just tell him it is wrong. He knows I don't have double standards about lying.

<strong>...... "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.</strong>

2long, I had that book ( I think I loaned it to Knewjie)...... it is full of little quips like that. Bought it while my WS was in de nile!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Thanks all for your validating responses.

Wisdom Rules - i don't know that I deserve that praise, but thanks anyway. Perhaps you should impart more of YOUR wisdom acquired over 1 1/2 years of lurking here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Certainly you have some to offer!

lupo - you are right on. Always running in the background is my EXTREME concern about the environment my son is in now for half his time. A lot of damage has been done already to his sense of right and wrong as demonstrated by the behavior of these two people whom had his trust and continue to deny that anything "wrong" happened.

He is an excellent math student, was on the math team in the 8th grade (last year), and normally does very well. In this instance, he's struggling with a new math teacher after spending two years with one who was very influential to him. The new one has a different style and recently threw him a curve with a different explanation for a classic math principle that my son had trouble accepting. SO, the lying and test destruction in this case, I believe, is a result of his personal "failure" to perform in his normal manner. He has been seeing a therapist ever since his brother passed and has socialization issues with his peers, but these seem to be resolving with growth.

oaktown - I am not familiar with your story, but please don't paint over your mirror. That'll keep you on the banks of that river in Egypt. Don't run and hide, try hard to heal and grow. I'm sure you can find lots of help here.

BTW, "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt" is not mine (that's why I put it in quotes). I don't know who to attribute this gem to, but it's been around a while.

WAT

re-discovered for Binder

WAT