I need some opinions/advice please.

Short synopsis - D-day was 6/01 when I found cards and gifts from the OW. After much denial and a short separation H admitted to an EA with a co-worker. A had been over since before D-day. OW quit her job earlier this year and there has been no contact since. H and I are doing pretty well but like everyone we have our good days and bad ones.

Fast forward to now - H drives youngest daughter to school. They leave at 8:20, school is 15 minutes away. H drops off daughter and "hangs out" until he goes to work at 9:30. School is about 10 mins from H's office. So he has approximately 40 minutes to "hang out". I have asked what he does during that time and he says he gets coffee and reads the paper or goes to the bank or some other errands. No problem.

Today my dad stopped to see me and said "I saw your husband this morning". I asked where and dad said "at Denise's". Alarms went off, as that is former OW's name. After I composed myself, I realized my dad was referring to a restaurant that he goes to run by a different woman named Denise. I waited until my dad left and I called H at work. I had spoken to him earlier and he didn't mention being at the restaurant (which is nowhere near school or work). The conversation went like this:

Me: Hi how was breakfast?
H: I didn't have breakfast
Me: My dad said he saw you at the diner
H: oh yeah I was driving by and saw my dad's car so I stopped
Me: Why would you be driving by there?
H: Well I left the back way from school, stopped and got a paper and some gas and then drove through town
Me: Ok but why didn't you mention it?
H: Do I have to tell you every breath I take? this is getting old

Now I'm thinking - getting old? This is the first time I have asked where he's been in many many months.

Me: It just seems odd and I don't understand why you're being so defensive.
H: I don't ask what you do every second of every day now do I?
Me: No but then again I didn't get involved with someone else while we were married. Sorry but that tends to put a different spin on things.
H: Here we go again throwing this up in my face
Me: No I'm hanging up now because I'm not going to allow you to blame me for your behavior. Have a nice day.

I hung up. I cried. I ranted to my friend and now here I am. Am I making too much of this? I don't keep tabs on him and I don't throw his A into his face ever. Now I'm scared of another A or the old one starting again.

Comments? Advice? I just want to scream! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi there,
I'm afraid I am not very good at giving advice! Just wanted to comment. My fiance has gotten into the habit lately of being "Jekyll & Hyde." Sometimes he will be kind and loving and actually invite me to check up on him whenever I like. Other times, he gets angry and defensive if I ask what he's been up to. He doesn't have any time that's not accounted for...but still, his defensive attitude gets me down. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hope someone else can offer you some advice...because I will read it too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Tiny Dancer,

I have been lurking here for many years. My husband has had a PA with a woman off and on for about 3 years now and we are trying to work through our marriage.

I rarely post, but I had to respond to your post. You sound a lot like myself. I truly believe that your husband knows what he did was wrong. I also know that constantly questioning him is LB. I know you said you don't ask him a lot of questions, but you said that you have asked him in the past what he does for those 40 minutes before going to work.

I believe in his mind you are trying to check up on him. Also our tone as BS's is very important. How you talk to him about where he goes is important. I know that he was the one who betrayed you and he should be willing to let you know where he goes and what he does, but it shouldn't feel like you are keeping tabs on him and treating him like a child. I know it is hard, but I believe you need to let him approach you about his time and try not to bring up his past transgressions. That just makes the WS more angry and causes tension. It is really hard but sometimes we just have to hold our tongue or watch how we word things. I believe eventually it you dont question him as much he will open up to you himself.

I hope this helps.

I think the things that helped the most were definately the tone of voice used when checking up on me. I know it's not fair but tell him you're more than willing to be as accountable for your time and that he can check up on you at any time. This has made me a lot less defensive because we were both doing it. Finnally ask him if he were in your shoes wouldn't he have times of insecurity and be greatly relieved if he could ask these same questions. And definately if responds and alleviates those fears be sure to be abundantly thankful.

Just my two cents.

TD ... Sweetheart, I have a problem. I need your help. Do you have the time to talk to me right now?

H ... Sure. What's up?

TD ... Well, I am having trouble again with feeling anxious. Can you help?

H ... Sure. What are you feeling anxious about?

TD ... Well, I feel like I need to be reassured that you are where you say you are .... otherwise, my anxiety takes over. Can you help?

H ... I don't want you to feel anxious.

TD ... Well, my dad said that you were at Denise's today ... and I thought my heart would pound right out of my chest! Then I learned it wasn't that Denise but the restaurant called Denise's. Do you go there often?

H .... <no longer on the defensive> Well, I've been there a few times. <blah blah blah>

Tiny Dancer ~~~~ Start with YOUR FEELINGS whenever you approach a sensitive subject like this. He cannot argue with your ownership of your anxiety ... because you did not place the blame on him for your anxiety (in my made-up senario).

They way you started... "How was breakfast?" .... has the feel of a trap. You closed him off .... we women can get the men to open up ... but we have to start out with a non-trap- way ... with some self observation ....

I'm not trying to offend you ... but to point out a possible alternative way to approach him.

YES ... you have the need to know where he is ... because it HELPS you to know ... try to make it from that angle (needing his help) rather from the angle where you set him up with a question that if he doesn't answer correctly WHAM-O He's been caught!... Try not to approach him like you're trying to catch him in a lie. (Which, in my opinion, is exactly what you were trying to do)

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

You are NOT over-reacting. I think you two should sit down and discuss this. Do NOT let it go. The fact of the matter is that this is NOT going to be the last time you question him so he needs to help you say it (with tones and words) in a way that is nonoffensive to him.

It is important that the WS understand that it takes 5 years to get over an affair. They have the power to speed up the process with their words and actions AND they have the power to slow down the process with their words and actions.

I think you handled yourself VERY well based on your post.

Keep your antennas up TD. Rest assured that the truth always comes out. My prayer is always: Lord reveal anything in my marriage that needs to be revealed and give me peace if there is nothing.

More warning signs go off when they get defensive. Re-establish the boundary that he must be accountable for his time. My H recently got defensive when I questioned him too. But I was not going to let up until I felt peace and I knew he was being truthful. Although he was a bit defensive the end result was that he was willing to do "whatever" it takes to proove he was being truthful. I think you and I are in the same place where we can have months go by without any questions. So there is NO reason to get all defensive when we ask one.

Thanks for the responses. I guess in my effort to make the post short I left out important details.

When I asked my H how he was spending his time between school drop off and going to work it was in relation to a discussion he and I were having regarding his doctor's orders to get his cholesterol level down. I was telling him not to go eating junk food while he was killing time and it was totally innocent.

Today he called me right when he got to work to let me know that he had spoken with our insurance agent regarding a problem we had. We also discussed my aunt who was hospitalized last night. He called me again about an hour later and we talked about what to do for daughter's upcoming birthday and about his parents coming to dinner on Sunday.

When I called him the conversation didn't start with "how was breakfast" lol. I had planned to call him anyway after I had spoken with our insurance adjuster, but my dad showed up.

The actual call went:
Me: hi are you busy
H: no not really. did you talk with Tom?
Me: yes they are sending someone out some time tomorrow morning.
H: do they need me to be there?
Me: no I can handle it I think
H: good ok because I have things to do tomorrow morning
Me: ok no big deal, I'll take care of it
H: thanks, anything else?
Me: how was breakfast?
blah blah blah

I was totally calm, not upset, not accusatory, just a question in the same tone as a what's for dinner type of thing.

He knows I get anxious and insecure when he doesn't tell me things and that includes things that have NOTHING to do with his A. It's my personality and I am a worrier, which he also knows.

TD~~~

If your conversation with your H did not help either of you grow more intimate ... I think you may want to try a different approach.

You wrote:

"I was totally calm, not upset, not accusatory ..."

Next paragraph ...

"He knows I get anxious and insecure ...."

Did you notice this discrepency in what you wrote? I am thinking you might not sound as calm and as non-accusatory as you think you do ... seeing as how you are anxious and insecure deep inside.

If your H is defensive .... he may be defensive because he feels he cannot win, no matter what. How can he tell what you're going to react to and what you're not?

PLEASE realize this .... I am not placing any blame anywhere ... but pointing out to you an area where you might improve your communication skills. That's all.

Please take care.

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks again for the advice. I guess I'm feeling much like I did when he was involved in his A. I never suspected him of being involved with an OW but I knew something was wrong and that's how I feel now.

Last night he slept on the couch in the family room and he barely said 2 words to me this morning.

I fear that anything I say will be seen as an attack so I stay quiet and let the gap grow wider. I just know that I can't and won't go through this emotional turmoil again.

"I fear that anything I say will be seen as an attack so I stay quiet and let the gap grow wider." ... I bettcha THIS is a pattern that contributed to the A in the first place! This is passive-agressive behavior. It does not work to make a warm and safe family environment.

You need to learn more about communicating your need on an adult to adult level. Staying quiet in the face of real and serious marital difficulties is very childish, don't you think?

I bettcha your H might feel this:

"I fear that anything I say will be wrong ... so I'm not going to say anything."

You both view the other's silence with hostility.

Counseling .... with an emphasis on techniques to make your relationship a safe place to talk freely ... for BOTH of you.

(((HUGS)))

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS .... Your sense that "something is wrong" may or may not be another woman .... but, SOMETHING IS WRONG !!!! You are correct. Your marriage has at least 2 flat tires .... stop driving the same way you usually drive ... STOP and fix the flat tires before you have a blow out!

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

TD, I know how you feel about the anxiety thing, and how difficult it is to approach things. You think you are saying it fine, but they hear it differently. Sure, he may know how you get anxious and such, but he could still use some reminding that it's not personal just the way your mind handles things.

Plus, now speaking as a WS, it's hard to just bring up everything. Chances are he say his morning stop as nothing. Does he tell you every day exactly what he does in the morn.? I would think he may have even forgotten about it when you asked the question. Then when you asked "how was breakfast. . ." he felt defensive. In the mind of the WS it's hard not to feel defensive at times, even if you have nothing to be defensive about - and that comes out. So, you get all the more anxious because you see his defense as a concern.

Relax, see it as what it was. Try to talk to him. Tell him you are sorry if you brought it up in a bad way, but that it just caused some anxiety in you and you needed to talk with him about it. Let him know you realize your anxiety and how it can be difficult to deal with and read. If you are anything like me, you probably don't like when you feel you may be overreacting because of anxiety and you are trying to work on that. Let him know this, and ask him to try to be patient with you.

Anxiety is a hard thing to deal with, but if you let him know you are aware of this it will help him to help you. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

One other thing, we feel at intense moments that when you bring up the A at any level it's being thrown in our face. Try to simply tell you H that you were not trying to throw it in his face yesterday and you are sorry if you came across that way.

Communication is a big thing here, and I have to agree with Pepper that maybe it would be a good idea to think about counseling to help with that. It did wonders for my DH and I. People deal with, process and express things differently. Once you can learn how to deal with that with eachother you will be amazed at how smoothly conversations like yesterdays can end up.

I hope this helps. I know exactly how you both feel. I have the misfortune of being a WS myself, and I understand your point from anxiety. I also sympathize with what you feel as a BS as my BH and I have discussed similar situations. My best to you. Take care, and good luck for a better evening.

I am in counseling but my H refuses to see an IC or an MC because he says counseling is for crazy, paranoid people, you know like me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I do TRY to communicate with him but it's next to impossible at times. His entire family is very uncommunicative and he lives what he learned and doesn't think there is any other way to be.

We were doing well until he began falling into old patterns. At the time I didn't recognize them as signs of an A because I thought we were "immune". Now I know better and everything is pointing that way and it scares me.

Thanks for your advice again.

Hi Tinydancer,

I don't know your whole story, but from what I see here, I think you might be right. I'm feeling the same way as you right now, and your last post (except the first sentence) could be written by me, so maybe my advice isn't the best right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The actual call went:
Me: hi are you busy
H: no not really. did you talk with Tom?
Me: yes they are sending someone out some time tomorrow morning.
H: do they need me to be there?
Me: no I can handle it I think
H: good ok because I have things to do tomorrow morning
Me: ok no big deal, I'll take care of it
H: thanks, anything else?
Me: how was breakfast?
blah blah blah </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know if my H said this, I would be asking what it was he had to do. It seems odd that instead of saying why he can't be there, (which I think would be a normal reaction) he just says he has things to do. My H would become defensive if I asked, and this makes me wonder what's up. I'm not a WS though, so I can't say if he's defensive becasue he's hiding something or if he's upset because there's nothing to hide and I don't believe him.

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I don't think you're over-reacting and I would stay vigilant if I were you. And I hope we're both wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

H&S