I think I'm approaching a crossroads here. Need feedback.

I think I've been flawlessly plan Aing for about a month and a half now. No fakery whatsoever. I truly love my W for who she is. I want her 2 be happy, period. I can tell she's been thinking a lot lately, about us and about her goals, particularly.

I know she's in regular email contact still with Rat Meat. I don't know what's said. I don't really care what's said.

I know I can't 2lerate continued contact with RM - ANY KIND of contact. It's been 12 years of deceit now, after all. That's half our D's lifetime and all but 3 years of our S's.

My W feels her and RM's similar scientific interests compliment each other, and would clearly like 2 maintain a friendship on that basis. I can understand that desire, but I won't live with it.

I should be hearing about that job sometime soon. I expect an offer, though I'd probably have 2 negotiate the salary and moving expenses.

I've been in something of a funk lately - still able 2 be loving, not LBing, even enjoying myself - and I can't honestly tell whether it's because I'm on a relative low in the roller coaster ride that's modulated by the prozac, or whether I'm burning out (It's been almost 8 months since D-day).

We're buying a 2nd home (really a 3rd, with our vacation home out of state) 2 live in while our house is being rebuilt. I think that, even if we DV, it's a good investment if we should have 2 sell it in a year or so.

What I'm thinking is this. If I get the job offer, accept it with a start date next summer. File for an amicable DV, and help my W get set up on her own and our house back 2gether so that our kids will have "stable" home bases here and where the new job is. My D is old enough 2 be out on her own, and my son will be in a few years.

I don't want 2 try plan B again. There's just 2 much we need 2 communicate about on a daily basis with the houses and family, and it really made me unproductive at work when I tried it last July. I also don't want 2 live like the past 12 years any longer. No way. And this continued R with RM is, at best, like the time between their 2 As - our M pulled a good vacuum and I didn't know why. And so, how would I continue plan Aing without raising the issue of contact and LBing, without the "threat" of DV? Again, I truly want my W 2 be happy and 2 be able 2 do the things she wants 2 do with her career. I have always thought that I was best able 2 help her do that by being her H, but I still feel that she doesn't have enough confidence that it will be that way, and she seems 2 resent being M'd. And I'm getting tired of trying 2 convince her. And I ain't getting any younger.

Am I just being a pessimistic [censored]? Probably. Am I just on a rollercoaster low point? Possibly. Am I burning out? That's what I need 2 know. And if I am, what 2 do?

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

2L,

The short answer is you need to talk. Talk to her or talk to a counselor. I think her is where this will need to go. I do however, think that the logical time to do this is after you have received the job offer. It will be time then to make plans for the future.

I really don't know what else to say. But, that what I suspect you need is some encouragement from your W that she does want to remain with you. If you haven't been getting this, then it is little wonder that you are running out of gas.

Must go.

JL

2L,

Just want 2 say that it is 2 hard 2 read your posts with all the 2s in there. I think it is cute, but it hurts my head 2 try 2 read it!

NSST

JL:

Thanks for the response! I was beginning 2 think that I had been lost and forgotten on the forum!

I think you're right, 2. Getting us both back in2 C is going 2 be a bit tricky. My W stopped her IC and our MC stopped those sessions (both are at Kaiser). I don't mind, because HMO C is every bit as useless as Harley's website describes. Then, I stopped my IC because of the "change your paradigm of right and wrong" comment. Then, I had my last IC session here at work, because it was the 8th of 5 free sessions. She asked me 2 contact her if anything changes, though. She's a smart C, and I will go back 2 her if I feel the need. Then, finally, I STILL haven't done my homework assignment given me by SH in late July. Why? Well, initially, I didn't feel it would do any good. Then, queries from my W indicated that it MIGHT be useful, provided the timing was right. Then I got swamped by all the stuff that went down in August. Now, I'm thinking the timing may be right again, and will be even righter if I get the job offer.

Yes, we do have 2 have a talk. Just trying 2 figure out how 2 without it escalating in2 an argument. I think I can do that on my part, but I'm not sure she has that kind of control.

NSST:

Hey, wait a minute! Didn't you used 2 be just ST? I hope that change reflects a GOOD 2rn of events for you!

Where would I be without my 2s? It's my genetic imperative 2 use 2s whenever I can! (and some2mes even when I can't!). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2L,

2rue, I us2 2 b ST. For2nately, the si2ation is 2urning 4 the better 4 the 2 of us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The OM is 2 s2pid 2 believe!

See ya, buddy!

<small>[ September 13, 2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Not So Sad Tiger ]</small>

Dear 2long,

Reading your post made me sad. I think MY sitauation is difficult at times, and I have a spouse who will do anything to stay married. I can only imagine what you feel like. Your wife is so very lucky to have you. I don't think she realizes it though. I also think it's a definite NO to maintaining a friendship with RM! That I do know!!!

It's always easy to give advice to someone else, especially when you are not walking in their shoes. So here it goes anyway. I think you need to start thinking about what is best for you. Put yourself first for a change. If you are happy everything else will begin to fall into place. I think your children,(who are old enough now), would also want to see you happy.

It's really very strange, but sometimes I wish my husband didn't work so hard at trying to make me happy now. It would have been a lot easier for me to leave and move on. I could have walked away from this whole mess. That probably would have been a cowardly way of handling things, but easier. Deep down I know I am glad for his committment.

You mentioned that you aren't getting any younger. That topic came up in a discussion with my therapist about me. I quess that is something to think about also. Who knows? I think you will feel in your heart what is best. Maybe you would want to talk with your children to see how they feel about everything.

That's about all the advice I can give. I get nervous giving someone else advice when I can't even advise myself at times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh, just one last thought, maybe you have been too accepting of your wife's choices in all of this. JUST A THOUGHT!

2L:
If I may be so bold as 2 suggest another alternative...

you've presented 2 possibilities:
1. She ends contact with RM
2. You take the new job, and leave (D’d or not)

What about another option? I would suggest a frank conversation with the W in which you expose the scenario as you see it, and as you believe she sees it, and perhaps a third alternative. Something like this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I know that you feel your R with RM is important for you from a professional standpoint, and that you believe this will no longer “evolve” in2 an emotional R again. I understand that, I understand how you feel and why you feel that way. I cannot argue with how you feel; I may not like it, but I accept that is how YOU feel.

Now I feel that our M will probably be over if contact of any kind continues, simply because that is how I feel. And although you may not agree with my feeling this way, that is, nonetheless what I feel.

So we have choices 2 make. We can agree that you will respect my feelings and end contact out of respect for those feelings, or we can agree 2 divorce so that this will not be an issue for either of us, OR we can agree that we have a fundamental disagreement, and commit 2 seek for a way 2 resolve it that is satisfac2ry 2 both of us.

I would suggest that we try the third alternative by jointly looking for and evaluating marriage counselors who specialized in these issues, and agree that we will both put forth our utmost effort 2 resolve this in the shortest time possible.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This way, I think all the cards are on the table, without LBing (recognizing and accepting both POVs as valid and equal), and presenting the “inevitable” possible conclusions of not doing anything as well as a reasonable alternative you can both commit 2. Then you’d each say search for 2 alternatives of MCs, present them 2 each other, and go thru a process of elimination until you can both agree 2 one, and commit 2 addressing this with that MC.

She should feel it’s reasonably “fair”, you will feel it’s making progress, and perhaps you can find a way out of the very un-appetizing original inevitable alternatives.

<small>[ September 13, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Marie:

"Reading your post made me sad."

Sorry about that! Mostly it's a vent. I feel like I've been stuck in a rut the past few days, and can't see the way out. I'm hoping that I will feel more optimistic as time goes on. I'm going 2 have 2 be a bit daring, though. Going 2 have 2 "try" something!

"I think you need to start thinking about what is best for you. Put yourself first for a change. If you are happy everything else will begin to fall into place. I think your children,(who are old enough now), would also want to see you happy."

This is correct. I have a tendency 2 NOT put myself first, out of consideration for my W's happiness - and it's working 2 a point - but I can't do that all the time or forever.

"It's really very strange, but sometimes I wish my husband didn't work so hard at trying to make me happy now. It would have been a lot easier for me to leave and move on. I could have walked away from this whole mess. That probably would have been a cowardly way of handling things, but easier."

Not cowardly, but would you have grown the way you have? Not likely. That's why I feel like I need 2 keep working on this, regardless of the outcome. If we wind up DV'd, but amicably so, I will have something 2 be proud of.

"Oh, just one last thought, maybe you have been too accepting of your wife's choices in all of this. JUST A THOUGHT!"

It's a reasonable thought, and one that I have 2 keep in mind. The delicate balance between "being there" for her and doing what's right for me.

SC:

That's an excellent idea. I will use something along those lines when the time comes 2 talk about this - probably when/if the job offer comes.

I may poke at the problem a bit between now and then, though, so long as it's not LBing.

This am, my W said she'd be late getting home, because she's going 2 take her coworkers out for drinks 2 celebrate delivering the draft report to the client yes2rday. I said "I may just swing by the grocery store and pick me up some road pops and have a little celebration of my own!" She appreciated that.

"Road pops" ... I donno what you're talkin' 'bout.

Somewhere ... sometime ... you need to decide .... "THIS is where the rubber meets the road." .... and explain your absolute limits clearly to your W ... and, importantly, without arguement. Some issues are grey ... and some are black and white .... what is non-negotable may be articulated in a non judgemental manner.

Your limits can be stated as simple facts .
Where and when you do that ... is up to you.
You do NOT need to be angry to do this ... IN FACT .... if you feel angry ... your timing is completely wrong.

If you are not going to do this today ...(which you're not) ... then stop coloring today's mood with this gray crayon.

Why not enjoy today ... and fill your W's love bank .... trust yourself that you WILL know when the time is right ... and you WILL be able to do what is necessary.

((HUGS))

Pep
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

""Road pops" ... I donno what you're talkin' 'bout."

Heckaroons, Pep! I've explained this 2 the 4um before:

Road Pops = beer, road cokes, barley sodas, hydraulic sandwiches, amber nectar, nectar of the gods, horse pi$$ (but not the stuff I drink!), 12 oz curls, specimen tea...

"Somewhere ... sometime ... you need to decide .... "THIS is where the rubber meets the road." .... and explain your absolute limits clearly to your W ... and, importantly, without arguement. Some issues are grey ... and some are black and white .... what is non-negotable may be articulated in a non judgemental manner."

I'm working on trying 2 figure out how 2 do this.

"Your limits can be stated as simple facts .
Where and when you do that ... is up to you.
You do NOT need to be angry to do this ... IN FACT .... if you feel angry ... your timing is completely wrong."

This is why I haven't talked about these at all since I got back: the LAST TIME, we argued. I hate that $h!t.

"If you are not going to do this today ...(which you're not) ... then stop coloring today's mood with this gray crayon."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I like that!

"Why not enjoy today ... and fill your W's love bank .... trust yourself that you WILL know when the time is right ... and you WILL be able to do what is necessary."

Thanks, Pep. I really want 2 do this right.

"((HUGS))"

Right back atcha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

P.S. A funny for Friday. I've always wanted 2 use this expression 2 describe someone passing away, but have never found it 2 be a particularly humorous time...

A friend of mine went 2 an estate sale a while back that had an address of an old acquaintance of his that he hadn't seen in years. My friend went there and found this friend of the acquaintance at the door 2 greet him.

My friend asked him: "What happened to ol' <name>?"

Friend of acquaintance: "He done step'd on a cloud, and gone home 2 Jesus!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just called the spousal unit and wished her a nice evening with her coworkers. She answered the phone with a very sweet tone - the one that melts ol' 2long's heart every time. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Me and my son will have us some nice Mickey-D's or some such for dinner! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2L: "He done step'd on a cloud, and gone home 2 Jesus!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd never heard that one! But it sure sounds like something that would be said here in 'ewston, LOL!!!

2L,

My suggestion is 2 pound 2 barley pops, 2 road sodas, and 2 Prozacs and call me in the morning!

I have been following your posts for months now, and I really feel for you. You have gone through so much more than I could have.

My opinion is that all along, your W has not taken you seriously. She knows you are completely devoted to her and will never leave. She is very smart and very stubborn, and will do whatever she can get away with. (I'm sure I would like her!)

My friend, the good news is that you are slowly but surely evolving to the point where you need to be - the point where you *really* don't care what the hell she does anymore, you are getting on with your life with or without her.

Dr. Pepper said it best, you have to tell her "THIS is where the rubber meets the road." You say you don't know how to do that. I think that once your attitude is properly "adjusted," you will be able to plainly and clearly tell her what you will and won't accept anymore, and if she don't like it, no problem. Have a nice life! And she will just 'know' you mean it.

Females have some kinda esp or something like a dog... they can sense fear... your W is extra smart and extra sensitive, therefore she is very dangerous! She will know a bluff instantly. That is why it has 2 be real.

Now, how 2 adjust your attitude... My suggestions:

Stop drinking the road sodas for now. Alcohol is bad for your thinking (which needs 2 be clear) in this situation, and you should not be drinking while on SSRIs anyway. (Very tough on the liver.) (Dammit, no more 2s!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

In addition to the Prozac, try to get on some Wellbutrin. (With Dr's supervision of course.) I started out on Celexa (another SSRI) only, and that worked pretty well by itself. I got on the Wellbutrin as well, more recently, to try to control some ADHD symptoms, and although it didn't really help that, it eliminated what little was left of my depression and then some! My mood is now excellent at all times. I even have to be careful not to get my feet too far off the ground. I am allowed to back off the Wellbutrin as necessary if I feel too 'high.' The Celexa dose has stayed the same.

(I quizzed my Psychiatrist extra hard about mixing the Celexa with the Wellbutrin. He says they do not clash. Here are the the chemicals they affect. Celexa - serotonin. Wellbutrin - norepinephrine, serotonin and dopamine.)

If your Doc won't go for that, see if (s)he will up your Prozac dose a bit. I think that since you feel like you are in a valley, you will need a boost to be able to say what needs to be said.

I am now so strong and in such a good mood that my W can cry in my arms and proclaim her undying love for the OM while I comfort her, and it doesn't bother me one bit.

This is the atti2ude you will need 2 say what you need 2 say. OK? Understand? Good! Go 2 it!

NSST

Know what ... I still don't understand "road pops" ... and I decided it's strictly a "guy thing" ... and I just won't get it .... ever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2Long ... Mr. pepper is in your neighborhood today ... be sure to say "HI". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepster:

Road Pops is a southern thang. I worked with some drillers that measured the distance from town 2 the field (and back), not in miles or kilometers, but in beers. Road pops are thus beverages consumed while driving in some parts of the world (not by me!!) in preference 2 soda pops.

And rest assured. I didn't buy any on the way home. I just had water with my burger. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NSST:

""I have been following your posts for months now, and I really feel for you. You have gone through so much more than I could have."

Heck, I didn't think I'd ever go through this crap and live!

"My opinion is that all along, your W has not taken you seriously. She knows you are completely devoted to her and will never leave."

She may have felt that way before I moved out for the week in July, but now I don't think so. She'd certainly LIKE 2 keep up her email contact with RM, and I'm not going 2 LB 2 get her 2 stop it, but rest assured, she'll stop.

"She is very smart and very stubborn, and will do whatever she can get away with. (I'm sure I would like her!)"

I agree. But I'm a player here 2, and I plan 2 start calling my own shots in this game.

"My friend, the good news is that you are slowly but surely evolving to the point where you need to be - the point where you *really* don't care what the hell she does anymore, you are getting on with your life with or without her."

True! Well, sort of. I envision my evolution involving getting 2 where I can get on with my life with or without her, but I will care about her and what she does (2 the extent it affects our family, at least, but for HER, 2). I won't willingly let her go down the 2bes over this.

"Dr. Pepper said it best, you have to tell her "THIS is where the rubber meets the road." You say you don't know how to do that. I think that once your attitude is properly "adjusted," you will be able to plainly and clearly tell her what you will and won't accept anymore, and if she don't like it, no problem. Have a nice life! And she will just 'know' you mean it."

Yep.

"Females have some kinda esp or something like a dog..."

Watch out for the female MBers, NSST!

"they can sense fear... your W is extra smart and extra sensitive, therefore she is very dangerous! She will know a bluff instantly. That is why it has 2 be real."

Indeed. That's why I'm following Pep's advice and not saying what's on my mind YET, while I'm not ready 2.

"Now, how 2 adjust your attitude... My suggestions:
Stop drinking the road sodas for now. Alcohol is bad for your thinking (which needs 2 be clear) in this situation, and you should not be drinking while on SSRIs anyway. (Very tough on the liver.) (Dammit, no more 2s!!! )"

I'm not going 2 drink, but my 2s? Where would I be without them? WHO would I be without them? Long?

"In addition to the Prozac, try to get on some Wellbutrin. (With Dr's supervision of course.) I started out on Celexa (another SSRI) only, and that worked pretty well by itself. I got on the Wellbutrin as well, more recently, to try to control some ADHD symptoms, and although it didn't really help that, it eliminated what little was left of my depression and then some! My mood is now excellent at all times. I even have to be careful not to get my feet too far off the ground. I am allowed to back off the Wellbutrin as necessary if I feel too 'high.' The Celexa dose has stayed the same.
(I quizzed my Psychiatrist extra hard about mixing the Celexa with the Wellbutrin. He says they do not clash. Here are the the chemicals they affect. Celexa - serotonin. Wellbutrin - norepinephrine, serotonin and dopamine.)
If your Doc won't go for that, see if (s)he will up your Prozac dose a bit. I think that since you feel like you are in a valley, you will need a boost to be able to say what needs to be said.
I am now so strong and in such a good mood that my W can cry in my arms and proclaim her undying love for the OM while I comfort her, and it doesn't bother me one bit."

I actually think I could do this if I had 2 right now. This valley is on the rise, 2. I've talked 2 some very fine folks from this 4um, and I'm doing much better. That, and I really don't like 2 take meds anyway. The prozac has been one of my pleasant exceptions.

"This is the atti2ude you will need 2 say what you need 2 say. OK? Understand? Good! Go 2 it!"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still don't understand "road pops" ... and I decided it's strictly a "guy thing"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep! 2L done told ya:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Road Pops = beer, road cokes, barley sodas, hydraulic sandwiches, amber nectar, nectar of the gods, horse pi$$ (but not the stuff I drink!), 12 oz curls, specimen tea...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Beer, baby, beer!!! Mmmmm, Beer!

We are here in Texas, where until 1987 it was perfectly legal to drink a beer and drive, and open container law (rest of the car) was only passed last year. Last State to do so. (At least we still don't have an income tax!) It was a time honored tradition to drink a beer and drive home from work. Therefore the name, road soda. (road pops for some, I guess.. never heard that!)

NSST

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not going 2 drink, but my 2s? Where would I be without them? WHO would I be without them? Long? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROFLMAO and CTABAHT!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

HCII