Just had a long phone conversation with WH. And now I feel like all the progress I'd made - getting stronger, not crying, thinking I could follow thru with Plan A till end of Oct - is about to go up in smoke. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

WH is back at work again (separate location from our home). He went back to OW and their *new* house, and seems to be content with this arrangement. Live with her 1 month, come home to me the next. I'm in Plan A. Working really hard to understand where I went wrong, better myself, and show him the changes are real.

And now I wonder if I've set us back with one stupid little phone call.

I got maybe a little too personal this time, talking about our problem, my MC session, my feelings. Maybe I pushed too hard? But when he started talking about "WE went to a party last night", and "OUR water got shut off the last 2 days", I lost it. No screaming or crying or anything. Just started pushing - wanting to make him show he cares for me.

I mentioned that maybe we shouldn't get together in Oct, maybe I should give up. He agreed he wouldn't blame me. I told him I wanted to come visit him down at his work location - he said that would be crazy. (Yeah, I thought, no kidding! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) I pushed - he pushed back, got colder. I told him I hated our last vacation together in Aug because he was so cold and unfeeling and uncaring, and I was trying to resign myself to that treatment next month when he comes home. I know that I was trying to push him to say that things would be different. Instead he said, "and you can live with that?" so I knew they wouldn't.

I'm so down right now. I want to give up. All the hopeful signs I saw - his calling me more often, his friendliness, our ease in talking together - now seem like so much delusion. And all the signs of strength I thought I saw in myself.... I feel like I'm back at square 1 again, about to lose it, crying, not eating.

Can someone give me some hope? Some advice?
Did I push too hard?
Am I expecting too much, too soon?
Am I wrong to talk seriously and tell him how I feel?
Should I not ask him what he wants and how he's feeling?
Was it wrong to ask (yes, again) about whether I could come visit him and then tell him how bad it made me feel that I couldn't?

This is the hardest part about Plan A. I don't know when I'm LB'ing (pushing, demanding, lecturing) and when I'm being honest. Any advice????

I don't really have much advice--I don't feel qualified, except to tell you that I am sorry for what you are going through. Being a Friday night it is sometimes slow to get a reply, so I thought I would tell you that.

After an imperfect Plan A, one failed recovery after a two week Plan B and now 6 weeks into the second Plan B, I am not much of one to look to for help. BUT, I will say, that everyone's story seems to indicate that these things take time. You have to be patient, with the situation and with yourself. You are doing the best you can. When you don't handle yourself the way you wanted, you look at your behavior and get ready for the next encounter to be better. Of course you pushed--he is your husband!! Just try and remember that you want him back of his own free will. Let him resolve the OW situation, and indeed it will resolve itself. The more time they spend together, the more reality hits and the grass won't look so much greener. Hang in there--its not over until its over!

SH94,

Plan A does not mean that you are a door mat. You are right in telling your husband that his actions hurt you. It’s part of the reality he has to deal with. The trick is saying it without love busting. Love busting is not when you are radically honest, it is when a person yells, screams, insults and makes disrespectful judgments.

Here is a link to Cerri’s posts from this last week. Read through the thread to find her posts. She has a lot of very helpful things to say.

It may be that you’re H’s coming home in October is ill advised. Plan A’ing him while he is living away from home might be best if his behavior is too hurtful.

Plan B is risky so only take it when you have very little love left for him. I don’t think you are there yet.

But you don’t have to Plan A in a manner that sets you up for being mistreated. Plan A is not about letting yourself be abused.

You may want to tell him that you do not want him back at any cost. That you want him back as your loving husband. That you are willing to give him some time.

These things are very tricky. If there is any way you can get an appointment with Steve or Jenn I would highly suggest it. They are the experts after all. Look for the counseling page on this web site. You may want to put a thread out for Cerri too. She could be of great help if she’s around right now.

Take care

SH94,

I'm very sorry for what you are going through. I've read some of your posts, but I'll take the time to go read some more in a minute. Want to go ahead and post first thoughts though so you can think on them.

I'm going to try to help you here; I'm a newbie myself but I can regurgitate (lol) what I've been told countless times by others--following it is a different story sometimes though. It's hard and I know it's hard--believe me--I'm still here with you.

It's hard to do, but you have to remember that Plan A is for you to better yourself--I finally had to post this to my mirror to see it every morning when I get up. And remember you're human, I don't know of anyone that's Plan A'ed perfectly without mistakes and I've been lurking here for a long time. Consider yourself a work in progress--yes there will be slip-ups, but as long as you continue down this hard road we're all traveling you'll eventually get there. I'm not going to lie to you, it may not save your marriage, but I can guarantee you will be a better person and like yourself more in the end (regardless of the outcome).

Also, remember that Plan A says not to bring up relationship talks. I've done it, but you're treading thin ice when you do. You have to be able to find that line (it's very very thin) between discussing and pushing. I think you may have been pushing it a little bit this time. Don't worry though, give your H a little time (and yourself), back off some, and remember that Plan A is about you-not him.

I had to finally face a hard truth - "I can't do anything to make H end it with OW. He is his own person and he will do as he chooses to do. I can only control myself and what I do." I know that may sound harsh (not meaning it to be), but that's how I have to think about things so I can take my focus off H and OW and turn the focus to me. If H takes notice and straightens himself up (lol), that will be wonderful. If not, I know I'm a better person (and I'm proud of myself) for the changes I've made in myself.

Another quote that a friend said to me once, "I don't need my wife; I want her." He says this to himself when he starts to feel jealousy rearing it's head (no A's; just "normal" relationship). If you look at your relationship in this light, you begin to realize that you will live if H doesn't come home (you may not be happy with it), but you will live. When you feel as if you need someone, you become very clingy and that is a definite turn-off.

I hope this makes some sense and doesn't come across as harsh. Hopefully one of the more wise MBer's will be in here soon to give you some advice. I'll be praying for you and your H; stay strong dear and take care of YOU.

With love,

Thanks to all of you. It's so hard being here on the opposite side of the world and have to wait till y'all wake up to hear words of wisdom and support. So glad there are a few night-owls!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you, zorweb: I read the Cerri posts, and they were gems - so helpful. You had some great thoughts as well. You said, "It may be that you&#8217;re H&#8217;s coming home in October is ill advised. Plan A&#8217;ing him while he is living away from home might be best if his behavior is too hurtful." I'm giving that some serious thought - I am very afraid that I'll undo all the work I've put in this month when I'm around him again in Oct. But you are right about one thing - I am not yet ready for Plan B. I wish I could talk to SH but phone costs from here would be astronomical!

Dumplin: I have to admit I cried and cried as I read your reply. Sometimes it feels so alone, living in a foreign country away from home. And to think people actually care enough to take time and offer their advice to a stranger. I'm overwhelmed.

I guess I need to think some more about what I want to do. And see if anyone else has some more insights.

Maybe WH will send me a reply tonight which will tell me what he thought of our phone call. I've been so tempted to write and explain better what I'd been trying to say. But then I think, no, just let it lie for now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I didn't mean to make you cry; I'm sorry. I don't reply to posts very often as I don't know as much as others and often don't know what to say. Your post touched me though and I could feel your pain. I'm online at odd hours so you never know when "Dumplin may be lurking around", lol. Sometimes I can only post and say that I'm here to listen, but when I see someone in such pain I feel I have to at least let them know that the insomniac (sp?) is here and will listen.

Zorweb is very knowledgable and has given me great advice in the past (I was posting at the same time Z was so didn't see the post). I've found the best thing I can do is read the posts to me, go read some other posts and then go back to mine again and reread it. Maybe it's me, but it seems to sink in better if I read it more than once--heck I still go back and read some of them from a month ago!

Take care of yourself dear and I'm here if you want to talk.

Sorry, forgot to add this earlier. I agree that you should back off for a little while and not contact H right now. It will only come across as more "pushing" in my opinion.

With love,

<small>[ September 14, 2002, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: dumplin ]</small>

OK, now for the update. Big breath here.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

WH sent me a note tonight telling me he wants to end this. He said our phone conversation this morning has convinced him that we need to call it quits. But let me go thru what he actually says - I'm not sure what he really means. Any help, advice, would be so appreciated.

First he starts off with "Hi, Baby". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Then he says I'm living on false hopes and he can't lead me on any longer. He said he had a small hope that when we got together in Oct something would spark and his feelings would change. But he says after seeing my impatience, he doesn't think that's going to happen - that I'll just act "crazy" and scare him off again. He says it would be different if he was missing me, but he isn't and actually would rather NOT see me. And he's pretty upset that I'm still bringing up this idea of going down for his birthday. As he (finally!) says, there is someone living with him and it wouldn't be fair to them to stay away while I was there. He says it just sounded to him like I was trying to stir up trouble. (And he is right there.)

Side note: I also sent him a long note about my last counseling session. In it, I told him my C thinks he may be an alcoholic, and I told him why. I also said - nicely, I think - that I was so wanting the old H back, and told him all the things I wanted and went through all the things I'd loved about him. Apparently that got his back up - he started saying if I thought he was now a liar and cheat and lazy and incompetent and unstable and a drunk then I was better off without him. Because I was going to have to deal with the "Current" H - there is no more "old" H. He says it would be too much for me to work through all of my doubts about him if I really think he's as bad as I say.

Finally he says that our M ended before this A started, that we both caused it, and that he still loves me. But that he doesn't have enough feelings for me to continue and build something for the future. He does love me enough to let me go because he doesn't want to continue leading me on.

And then he ends it by saying, "I am not a drunk, never used drugs, not unstable or confused, and I don't treat people like dirt." (OK, I admit I did say that I thought the person he was now - the "Current" H - was unstable, confused, and treated people who love him like dirt.)

And that's about it.

Right now I feel really dead calm. Is this the calm before the storm? It's kind of scary - I keep waiting for the reality to set in and to start screaming and crying.

Anybody there? Can anybody help me figure out what to do? Is it time to let go???? Please help.

I'm sorry you are having such a bad time. I don't really have much advice to offer; only support and listening eyes. Hopefully one of the "old-timers" will come in here soon and offer some of their wonderful advice. Just wanted to let you know I'm here.

With love,

Please help!!!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I'm don't know what to do.

My WH wants to quit (I think he means divorce, though he never said so). But I'm not going to help him with divorce. And not sure that I want to go Plan B.

I sent him a note telling him no, I wasn't going to quit on us. That I was sorry for making him feel so unhappy by lapsing into my old bad habits, that he was right in being dejected and angry with me and depressed and confused. But that I refused to give up on us and wanted to keep trying. And I also told him that I believed in him - his decency and honesty and goodness - and that we could make it work. But that I knew I couldn't make him want to and so I needed to give him space. He needed to make his own decisions. At the end I told him I needed to sleep - I've been up all night agonizing over this - and that I would write him a note later on to talk about what I thought we should do.

I need advice so badly now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Was this note okay? Did it say too much, go too far, not go far enough?

And what do I do now? How do we proceed?

Part of me wants to keep on Plan A - I screwed up yesterday, gave him LB's and more LB's. And obviously undid everything I'd tried to accomplish in the past weeks.

Another part of me says Plan B. Is there anything like a modified Plan B? So I can keep up the cheery, newsy e-mails (tho less often than I have) but no phone calls and don't see him on his month off. I'm afraid that when I see him in Oct, I won't be able to stop LB. And if we keep on with phone calls, the emotions will just build again and I'll explode once more. So can I stick to e-mails? Just a few, once in a while? Very general? Or stop those completely too?

Any advice????? I will need to tell him soon. And probably in the next few hours. Although maybe he will just take my last note as a hopeful sign that I will back off and leave it at that for now????

Willard F Harley Jr PhD recomends that BS's like yourself may benefit from taking anti-depressants to effectively deal with the emotional storm. Many here have done just that and have found that it makes a world of difference and that they are able to do a much more effective plan A. So please consider taking them because they may be just what you need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SH94:
[QB]

Right now I feel really dead calm. Is this the calm before the storm? It's kind of scary - I keep waiting for the reality to set in and to start screaming and crying.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could be feeling relief. There might be something inside you that is telling you that being treated like this is no way to live.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SH94:
[QB]I'm don't know what to do.

=^^= Then do nothing. Just pray for guidance and God's mercy and ask Him to take this monsterous pain from you because you can't handle this alone.

But I'm not going to help him with divorce.

=^^= If he wants the divorce, let him go through the expense and aggrivation of getting an attorney.

I sent him a note telling him no, I wasn't going to quit on us. That I was sorry for making him feel so unhappy by lapsing into my old bad habits,

=^^= What old habits??? What has he convinced you that is so bad for you to be abandoned?

that he was right in being dejected and angry with me and depressed and confused. But that I refused to give up on us and wanted to keep trying.

=^^= Don't grovel or plead. It will be seen as a weakness and it will be unattactive to him.

Was this note okay? Did it say too much, go too far, not go far enough?

=^^= You are too upset and seem too desperate to be effective right now. You also sound so alone and that makes you even more vulnerable. I would either go into Plan B this minute with no more communication whatsoever, (and that is going to be very hard for you because of your insecurities) or I would just let everything go for a while and not call or write him and let him call you, and when you do hear from him, keep it light and casual as best you can.

And what do I do now? How do we proceed?

=^^= Do nothing except focus on yourself and what you want and need without your husband. What would you be doing for yourself if he were dead?

Part of me wants to keep on Plan A - I screwed up yesterday, gave him LB's and more LB's. And obviously undid everything I'd tried to accomplish in the past weeks.

=^^= You haven't screwed up so stop taking responsiblity for his decisions. This is his gig, not yours. You have done nothing wrong to inspire this betrayal.

Is there anything like a modified Plan B? So I can keep up the cheery, newsy e-mails (tho less often than I have) but no phone calls and don't see him on his month off.

=^^= There is no modified Plan B, but that is where I think you should be after reading what he said to you. I wouldn't send him anymore cheery, newsy e-mails for him to blow off.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel so bad for the terrible place you are in. I know how painful the rejection is and how devastating it is to hear words like that come from someone we love and want. You can't make him love you with cheery e-mails but you can make him feel and know what it is like to not have you around anymore if you are in Plan B. It will bother him, too, if he thinks you are indifferent.

I agree with Too Much Coffee that meds could be very helpful to you rught now. I am not a proponent of drugs of any kind but I worry about you being alone without support and think in your case you could benefit from a little Zoloft or Welbutrin to get you through this uncertainty.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers that God will comfort, protect, guide and bless you.

Sometimes toxic relationships are taken from us to pave the way for something better after we have had some healing. Stay close to God and keep praying and keep posting here....it will help you get through the tough spots.

Good luck and God bless.

Catnip =^^=

Wow! Thanks for the shake-up, Catnip. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I needed that. You're right - I HAVE been blaming myself. But I think I deserve it to some degree - I was a b**tch and controlling and domineering and angry and put him thru awful times. So I don't know if I'm acting all that needy and insecure, at least to him. When I get tough, he withdraws and gets colder and immediately starts talking divorce. He said that when he sees this softness, it makes him want to stay. Not that I was saying these things to appear soft! They came from the heart.

For the first time in my life I'm considering anti-D's. After going thru 3 D's, suicides, murders, child abuse, wife abuse, drug addicts. Made it thru all those. And now I'm a basket case over THIS. Why is he so special??? I think it's because after the first 3 H's, I thought "this is the ONE! The true love of my life." Boy, did I have stars in my eyes. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

No word yet from WH - probably won't hear till tonite. I like your advice, Catnip. Just let it go for now. Still not sure about Plan B - have to think about that. Need to read some more, think some more..... and stay open to everyone's advice, no matter how hard-hitting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SH94,

Please listen to the "old-timers" advice (lol, Catnip since I'm a pup!); they have been through all of this and can point you in the right direction. I've always been given wonderful advice and have gained alot of insight - sometimes painful - from being here.

I'm going through a rough time right now so I don't feel that I can really offer any advice to you, sorry. I'm just too mad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I will be online though and willing to listen if you need to vent. I totally agree with Catnip:

"You are too upset and seem too desperate to be effective right now. You also sound so alone and that makes you even more vulnerable. I would either go into Plan B this minute with no more communication whatsoever, (and that is going to be very hard for you because of your insecurities) or I would just let everything go for a while and not call or write him and let him call you, and when you do hear from him, keep it light and casual as best you can."

With love,

Thanks, Dumplin, I keep reading and re-reading your supportive notes. The more I think about it, the more I think Catnip was right on about doing Plan B - I do have to distance myself from WH. Not just to protect myself but also stop hurting both of us and preserve whatever love we have left. So I started writing one. I don't know when I'll send it - might be tomorrow, might be next week, who knows. But it makes me feel better and more in control. And it's better therapy than "sex in the city"... kind of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But as of right now I haven't heard from him, and I'm not going to make another move or contact him for at least a day or so. I'm still a bit confused as to best way to proceed. I keep thinking that the last contact we had was so negative - I want to have time to improve that. SO I don't want to give up on keeping some contact going, anyway.

Today....
I didn't sleep all night and then cried all morning. A friend came over to talk and let me cry with her (she's going thru the same thing with her H). What is with this MLC thing - is it contagious! Forgot to eat. Watched "sex in the city" DVD's and even smiled a couple times. Around 4:30pm another friend finally dragged me out of the apartment despite protests, got me to the gym, then took me to dinner. Got complimented on my Chinese by the taxi driver who drove me home - we chatted (me badly! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) all the way, and I had a blast trying to talk with him.

I am going to be okay, aren't I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What is going on??? Can someone give me some insight into what is happening inside WH's head???OK, OK, I know that's a tall order. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But can someone then tell me how to react to what just happened??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

WH called me tonite. I haven't initiated any contact since I said "no" to his "I want to call it quits" note. A whole 2 days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I've been giving him all this space he says he needs. (And in the process, I've been feeling pretty darn good, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

So here's how the conversation went....

WH - was that you who tried to call? I got a missed-call message on my cell phone.

Me - No. I was asleep.

WH - oh, sorry. (long silence) so how are you doing?

Me - Pretty good! except I got woken up just now. (Laugh) (silence, as I try to decide if I should talk to him or not) How are you?

WH - Oh, kind of depressed.

Me - I'm sorry to hear that, dear. How come? (calm concern)

WH - oh, you know.... (silence, changed subject) I was worried about you. I wanted to make sure you were okay. You said you were going to call me after your last note.

Me - Well, I didn't think there was anything left to say. I said it all in my note. Didn't I?

WH - Yeah, I guess you did. (long silence) Well, that's all I wanted to say.

Me - OK, well I'm going back to sleep. I'm tired! Daughter called last nite and kept me up talking politics...
(and that opened the way for us to talk politics - one of our shared passions - for 5 minutes. then heard OW calling in the background. our conversation died down.)

WH - well, guess I better let you go back to bed.

Me - OK. (silence) Say, I was going to cancel my plane tickets for our vacation next week. What do you want to do about that?

WH - (confused silence on his side)

Me - Why don't I send you a note?

WH - Yeah, send me a note. Don't do anything yet. Send me a note. We can talk about it.

Me - Ok, baby, I'll talk to you later then.

WH - Bye, baby. (wistful note in voice - or maybe I'm imagining that???)

So that was it. I tried to go back to sleep. And guess what? I can't! Surprise!! LOL So here I am, wondering what the heck all this means and how do I respond to THIS! I was gearing myself up for a "I want a divorce now" phone call, and now this!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Any ideas? Any insights? Am I going crazy? Am I building up false hopes again? Should I have been so nice and friendly on the phone? Should I suggest we not meet up next month? The questions are just spinning! HELP!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

First, I wan't to say that I've just briefly read over plan A, B. However, I 'm surviving infidelity and it has been a long road but I am reaping the benefits.
I would like to say that your H may now be getting the wake up call he has needed. You need to be a strong person (easier said then done I know). Currently, he has his cake and he is eating it too. He needs to be aware that you may not always be there and he has to get off the fence and make a decision. You should be proud of yourself for not contacting him and you should remain strong.
I'm curious do you both attend counseling together? I found that was very important in our reconciliation.

First, I wan't to say that I've just briefly read over plan A, B. However, I 'm surviving infidelity and it has been a long road but I am reaping the benefits.
I would like to say that your H may now be getting the wake up call he has needed. You need to be a strong person (easier said then done I know). Currently, he has his cake and he is eating it too. He needs to be aware that you may not always be there and he has to get off the fence and make a decision. You should be proud of yourself for not contacting him and you should remain strong.
I'm curious do you both attend counseling together? I found that was very important in our reconciliation.

First, I wan't to say that I've just briefly read over plan A, B. However, I 'm surviving infidelity and it has been a long road but I am reaping the benefits.
I would like to say that your H may now be getting the wake up call . Currently, he has his cake and he is eating it too. He needs to be aware that you may not always be there and he has to get off the fence and make a decision. You should be proud of yourself for not contacting him and you should remain strong.
I'm curious do you both attend counseling together? I found that was very important in our reconciliation.

Ktybug: I'm in IC (tho I sometimes think I get more insight right here. I'm training my C in MB principles! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) WH at first said he wanted to go to MC, but now has started back-pedaling. Last time I mentioned it, he said he doesn't see where it would help right now. So that's not an option at this time. Especially since he's not even coming back home next month.

So am I building up all kinds of false hopes again? His last note said he wants to call it quits. I have no reason to believe he's changed his mind.

Should I just take him at his word about why he called, that he was worried about me? Should I keep on acting like he does want to separate, and let him know I'm cancelling our plans for next month and sending a few of his things back to the States? Or will he take that as my giving up?

Should I maintain no contact, put it on his shoulders, let himbe the one to decide what to do next month and actually tell me? I don't want to make it easy on him - I've always been the one to make decisions, and he says he hates that.

Or should I be positive and reach out to him? Do I send him a note asking if he wants to cancel our plans together? Asking if he wants to come home to get his things or have me send them back to the States? Re-iterating that I love him and want to see him next month?

I feel so pathetically inadequate at handling this. And so weak - waiting for him to do something instead of me taking charge. But I feel like any move I make is enough to tip this in the wrong direction. I do so need advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />